Can you CD w/o being TG?

^ I didn't quite understand what Pink Person was saying either, but although it is unconventional, I can see where the literal term "transman" could apply to both natal genders if it is understood that "transsexual transmen" are FtM and and "CDing transmen" are MtF CDers. Both are men, and both are crossing gender boundaries. (Transitioned MtF TSs also use the same word as birth females when they call themselves women.)

But, to prevent confusion, I think it's best to use two different terms altogether: transmen for FtM, and CD for CDing males (although most people do believe that CD falls within the TG umbrella).

Pink Person, I think you will continue to confuse people using the same term for both. That's not saying the community might not alter the terms down the line, but for now I think it's best to stick to the WPATH definitions, if you want people to understand who you refer to when you use the term "transman".

Why complicate things?

transman = Female to male transexual
transwoman = male to female transexual

Why would a transman crossdress? Most TS would rather die than wear the clothing of their birth sex. not because it has anything to do with clothes but the clothes imply gender. For someone who is trying desperately to cross that difficult divide and aline their bodies with their minds often times the clothes, especially early on, are the only way to really get the outside world to "see" your internal gender and therefore socialize with you accordingly

What CDers choose to do with the term "crossdresser" is up to them. Frankly the prefix M2F in front of the CD label is pretty unnecessary since F2M crossdressers are as rare as hens teeth. Crossdresser implies a male dressed as a woman.

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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Originally Posted by ilovepanties

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

Just so know one gets thrown to the wolves...

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trans(space)man = Female to male transexual
trans(space)woman = male to female transexual

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Ive been yelled at before, so i am just passing the knowledge, not trying to be a jerk

-Donni-

p.s.

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its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

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Me too April...

I found this rather disgusting definition of "cisgender" as one of 3 descriptions on a website called "urban dictionary".

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"cisgendered
a word created by an attention whoring, douche bag, drama queen which describes how the majority of people view their own sexual identity. often used as a pejorative against normal people by fat, ugly gender studies majors who are so absolutely f***ing dull that they must create interesting aspects of their personalities such as identifying as gender-queer or developing an eating disorder."

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My point in posting this is not to inflame or disparage anyone for their views, but simply to emphasize that there is no real definition for the word other than that it means you are not transgendered. In other words it does not describe what anyone is, just what they are not, and there are multiple opinions about it. Transgender, by definition refers to the expression gender identity. Gender Identity is dependant upon the definitions of the words gender and identity. Gender is dependant upon the whims of the culture at any point in time, and gender identity is our intrinsic sense of being male, female or a combination. Intrinsic means belonging to a thing by its very nature.

The convoluted nature of all of this means that any discussion about anything to do with TG, CD etc. is totally dependant upon the meaning and interpretation that you are placing upon each and every one of those terms. The highly subjective nature of them renders most arguments meaningless as nobody knows the thoughts and feelings of others, and any opinions thereon are purely speculative. Since cisgender is at the top of that chain of highly subjective definitions it has no actual meaning beyond the intentions of the user.

So the question posed by Pink Person "So, will the real cismen please stand up?" would likely result in virtually everyone remaining seated, as there is no such thing except in the mind of the questioner. The proper question should be "All those who identify solely as male please stand up." All males but those who believe in their mind that they are transgendered, would pop right up.

Veronica

"The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "to/this the near side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry, or in the ancient Roman term "Cisalpine Gaul", i.e., "Gaul on this side of the Alps". In the case of gender, however, "cis" refers to the alignment of gender identity with assigned gender." wikipedia

So its not something some "gender studies nerd" pulled out of his or her ass. This is how words get made this is how we assign meaning to them.
It doesn't do us any good to ask each individual how he or she "feels" about a particular word. No one cares how you "feel" about the word "room" we all agree that it means an enclosed space. The "room" could be a banquet hall or a walk in closet so there is a lot of ambiguity to the word room until other words are added to the sentence to clarify and further define the meaning. Context maters as well. If I walk into a motel office and ask for a "room" there need not be a discussion about what kind of room I want beyond wether said room has a king or 2 queens.

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Originally Posted by ilovepanties

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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If by "be" you mean transition, that has nothing to do with transgendered as being discussed. Although transsexuality points are introduced for clarity's sake in making points, we are talking about CDers who do not wish to transition. I do not wish to transition, yet I am TG.

Lea

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

"The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "to/this the near side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry, or in the ancient Roman term "Cisalpine Gaul", i.e., "Gaul on this side of the Alps". In the case of gender, however, "cis" refers to the alignment of gender identity with assigned gender." wikipedia

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Not to nitpick, but the meaning of "cis" which you reference above "the near side of" or "this side of" would tend to imply that a cisgendered male, was a little on the TG side of pure male. Some of the references that I have looked up, have stated that the origin of "cis" was Greek as opposed to Latin, but I will not argue that as I do not know which is correct.

Also, I cannot argue with most of what you describe about words, except to say that with a subjective definition, how one "feels" becomes a part of the context. Just as we need to know the type of room, the furnishings, whether or not it is adjoining, smoking, balconied, large, small etc., we also need to know the context in which all the gender words are being used. I think that a lack of clarity causes much of the debate in threads like this.

Veronica

To be clear, Mother Nature created transgender variety, not me. If you are a man who is transgender then you are a transman. Since there is more than one way to be a man who is transgender, there is more than one way to be a transman.

If some male crossdressers weren't prone to such ridiculous fits of self-deception and delusions about their gender status and social status then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Their masculinity and their masculine behavior are very meaningful, they claim. Their femininity and their feminine behavior are very meaningless, they also claim out of the other side of their mouths. Both gender types and gender behaviors are meaningful or both are meaningless. If they are both meaningful then you are transgender. If they are both meaningless (to you and no one else) then you are still transgender because your opinion on the subject is beyond the rational comprehension and experience of anyone who has ever lived. You only make sense to yourself. You are a nonsensical army of one.

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If you are a man who is transgender then you are a transman.

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Incorrect

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The term trans man refers to female-to-male (FtM or F2M) transgender people, and trans woman refers to male-to-female (MtF or M2F) transgender people.

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A transvestite is somebody who cross-dresses.[37][38] The term "transvestite" is used as a synonym for the term "cross-dresser",[39][40] although "cross-dresser" is generally considered the preferred term

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"Transgender man" is an umbrella term that may include anybody who was assigned the female sex at birth but identifies as male.

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If some male crossdressers weren't prone to such ridiculous fits of self-deception and delusions about their social status then we wouldn't be having this conversation

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Some would also say that if some male crossdressers took five-ten minutes researching what these common definitions really meant and why, this conversation would go on with a lot less egotistical assumptions.

Crossdresser and Transvestite are the same thing.

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A transvestite is somebody who cross-dresses.[37][38] The term "transvestite" is used as a synonym for the term "cross-dresser",[39][40] although "cross-dresser" is generally considered the preferred term

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Good Morning Again,
-Donni-

In order to have a lie, there must be a truth. What we have been dealing with in all of these discussions is opinion, which is much different than truth. I do not project my opinions on anyone and simply derive them from introspection about my personal situation, and my understanding of the terminology involved. You consider your opinions to be truths and try to impose them upon everyone else. My only reason for challenging them is to hopefully prevent others from mistakenly taking them as gospel, and to provide them with some food for thought to enable them to arrive at their own conclusions.

Veronica

You say my definition of transman is incorrect, I say your definition is incomplete. You are correct but not completely correct.

I was only trying to help some poor souls rescue their false pride. I don't want to open a debate on terminology because it is still evolving in some areas. The basic gender concepts are settled issues though and they apply to this discussion.

Thanks for the response anyway.

P.S. I think I used the word delusion correctly. Let's take a vote.

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Originally Posted by bridgetta

.. labels and definitions are the bane of the crossdresser..lol

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And to TS's, TV's, all of them!

In my opinion, at least the way I look at it since I don't like definitions (who made them and who says they are right) but I don't look at TG as an unbrella term or a spectrum. Rather, I look at Gender as simply one spectrum that everyone is under. At the ends you have strictly men and women and everything else falls between somwhere. :)

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Originally Posted by Soriya

I don't look at TG as an unbrella term or a spectrum. Rather, I look at Gender as simply one spectrum

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IOW: I reject your definition and trump it with my delusion

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

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Transcontinental doesn't equal transoceanic either. However, a person who knows the definition of 'transoceanic' and 'continental' will assume he also knows the definition of 'transcontinental'. That is what is happening with transsexual and transgender, and it's why even people who know the official definition of transgender still shy away from the word. A transsexual wants to be the opposite sex, ergo a transgender person must be someone who wants to be the opposite gender. You cannot stop people from reaching that conclusion. It's in the etymology of the words. Why not just pick a different word to be the umbrella term, one that acknowledges and respects the difficulty that crossdressers have with being called transgender? Why insist that they're just being silly? Why treat them like retrograde morons? What's the point of insisting on this problematic, controversial term?

:wall:

Labels and definitions are the bane of everyone and everything. We naturally slot other people into them ( it's how our brains work!) while declinging to be constrained by them ourselves!

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

A transsexual wants to be the opposite sex, ergo a transgender person must be someone who wants to be the opposite gender. You cannot stop people from reaching that conclusion. It's in the etymology of the words. Why not just pick a different word to be the umbrella term, one that acknowledges and respects the difficulty that crossdressers have with being called transgender? Why insist that they're just being silly? Why treat them like retrograde morons? What's the point of insisting on this problematic, controversial term?

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The fallacy starts with your definition of transsexual, we don't want to be anything other than at one with our identity.

A transsexual crosses the divide from their natal sex to their true gender (and doesn't want to go back).

A transgender person crosses the divide between the genders. The difference is that this crossing does not have to be permanent.

Categories by definition are Work In Progress... they satisfy the current level of knowledge. As we move forward with more knowledge, categories will be challenged, and this is the nature of learning and knowledge creation. We use to think the Earth was flat... Ok some still do, but the growing body of opinion is otherwise. We have also accepted that the universe is expanding from a fixed point (the big bang) - this is based on available data. We have just discovered that Homo Sapiens may have co-existed with Neanderthals for thousands of years... this changes our perceptions.

There are few fixed points... a true learner accepts that these may change. But we use them to orientate current knowledge. When data conflicts with the fixed point and/or established/recieved wisdom, then we have to challenge our underlying models and beliefs...

For everyone else there is self-delusion and fundamentalist religions.

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

I think that a lack of clarity causes much of the debate in threads like this.

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I think, as Donni pointed out, that a lack of the ability to use google or perhaps the willingness to do so is more to blame than a lack of clarification.
I didn't make up the term "transgender" but the person who did did so to create a word that could be used to describe the "community" (I use that term loosely) of gender variant individuals. Personally I couldn't give a shit less about it. I'm not a political person and when my transition is as physically complete as I can achieve my mental, emotional and spiritual transition will continue with me as a woman.

I really don't see why the term transgender, as an umbrella term for all of us, is such a problem for some. Just because you cross a gender line doesn't mean you can't come back. Gender is NOT sex. I have met 'trans-SEXUALS" who have done very little to "trans-GENDER". To me they seemed like dudes with pussies, Im not judging, just saying if they hadn't told me they had had SRS I would have thought they were just CDers. I have met CDers who are very convincing and quite cute all dolled up and even change their voices pretty well which is not easy to do if you are not full time! i have met individual who were hard to gauge, my guess is they were long term full timers perhaps on hormones perhaps not. what we all have in common is that we trans-GENDER to some degree or another, we look, act, dress, talk, etc. like the gender other than the one we were assigned at birth and were subsequently raised as. Whether one goes back and forth or one chooses to stay is immaterial

I feel many people are mixing up terms. Transgender is an umbrella term and cross dressers most definitely fall under it. Many people are mixing up transgender with transexualism. The definition of transgender is "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these.". This makes cross dressers, transexuals, androgynous, genderqueer, etc all transgender. I feel many people are just afraid of the word transgender and want to justify why they do something, while avoiding the label. The truth is by the current definition and I understand definitions change all the time, but the current definition of transgender, makes cross dressers an area under the transgender umbrella.

Sorry all you deniers... Haters gonna hate :3

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

The fallacy starts with your definition of transsexual, we don't want to be anything other than at one with our identity.

A transsexual crosses the divide from their natal sex to their true gender (and doesn't want to go back).

A transgender person crosses the divide between the genders. The difference is that this crossing does not have to be permanent. (Emphasis added.)

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But there is nothing in the form of the words to indicate that difference. That's the whole point! It's not that I don't believe you when you say that some group of academics have decided that this will be the definition of the word, it's that I don't think that's how the word is commonly understood. Why can't there be an umbrella term that doesn't require me to explain to people that it doesn't mean what they think it means?

ADDENDUM: Some of you just aren't LISTENING. You keep repeating that "official definition" over and over again like that should be the end of the discussion. We know the official definition, okay? Can you stop quoting it long enough to try to understand what we're saying?

^ Sophie, then your main objection is, if you tell someone you are transgender they might misconstrue this and believe you want to be a woman?

Keep in mind, you don't have to get into any details with the muggles and you can continue to refer to yourself as crossdresser. But, the first question most people ask is still, "Do you want to be a woman?" followed closely with, "Do you like men?" People outside the community understand very little about the nuances, so I really don't think it matters what word you use. If they want to learn more, then you can get into it all: transgender as an umbrella term, the three components of gender, the difference between CD (a mismatch between two of the compoments) & TS (a mismatch between all three components), and the fact that sexual preference is not necessarily tied to gender, etc.

Some people will be fascinated with all of this. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

^ Sophie, then your main objection is, if you tell someone you are transgender they might misconstrue this and believe you want to be a woman?

Keep in mind, you don't have to get into any details with the muggles and you can continue to refer to yourself as crossdresser. But, the first question most people ask is still, "Do you want to be a woman?" followed closely with, "Do you like men?" People outside the community understand very little about the nuances, so I really don't think it matters what word you use. If they want to learn more, then you can get into it all: transgender as an umbrella term, the three components of gender, the difference between CD (a mismatch between two of the compoments) & TS (a mismatch between all three components), and the fact that sexual preference is not necessarily tied to gender, etc.

Some people will be fascinated with all of this. :)

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It's true that some explanation will be needed regardless. (In my experience, they ask whether you're gay first, and then whether you want to be a woman. :) )

It caused my wife some initial concern when I used the word 'transgender' to describe myself. I had to explain to her that it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. Fortunately, she's accepting of my crossdressing, and she trusts what I tell her about it. Not all CDs are that lucky, and I wonder if there is a difference in how their wives would respond to a CD Support Group vs a TG Support Group. Perhaps you should ask the ladies in FAB how they respond to the term 'transgender', and whether it puts them off? Do they prefer to think of their husbands as CD?

And thanks for being someone who has listened. :)

This is a great point, Ayame. I don't understand why some people worry about terms like this, but I am a crossdresser and I am therefore transgender. And if the original question meant can you be a crossdresser without being a transexual, the answer is yes, because I am not a woman trapped in a man's body, I am a crossdressing male, and am not attracted to other men. I am quite happy with that, and so is my girlfriend.