How can you be a crossdresser if you’re transgendered?

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Originally Posted by Marleena

Are you CD or Transgender or both?

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“We have a technical…” (Gary Numan)

Splitting off from Marleena’s recent thread, itself splitting off from other discussions, I wish to ask this technical question: If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser? It seems to me that if you’ve gone from one gender to the other, as the word transgender implies, and, in the case of MtF, you now identify as a woman, wouldn’t you just be naturally wearing clothes appropriate to your gender, and not crossdressing per se?

This idea has popped up here a few times in the past couple of years, usually put forth lightheartedly, such as, “You know, I’m not really crossdressing any more – it’s become just DRESSING!!!” Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at – if you see yourself as a woman, it follows you would (or should) wear women’s clothing, n’est ce pas? In that instance, you’re no longer crossdressing, you’re simply wearing the clothes that distinguish your sex, or gender if you prefer. I recently wrote a thing about this idea of how clothes distinguish the sexes, and if we transpose the ideas contained within that ignored OP onto the current argument, it sheds new light on the terms crossdresser and transgender. If you’re a male by birth, but you have become convinced you’re really a woman, where does the crossdressing come in?

I identify as a male, yet I wear women’s clothing on occasion, so I am a MtF crossdresser. I am not interested in becoming a woman, or living my life as a woman, so I cannot, by definition, be called transgendered. I trans-vest, but I do not, will not, and shall not trans-gender. I’m not a female trapped in a male body, there is no “inner girl” inside me, and pink fog is a rare occurrence at best. I like to dress up as a form of hedonistic pleasure, no strings attached, purely for fun whenever I feel like it. At the beginning and end of the day, I am a male. I don’t wear my femme clothes to bed. In the outside world, I go around as a male – my femme self, if you can call it that, comes and goes like a will-o-the-wisp, being employed to heighten or otherwise enhance reality. I am not dressed all the time, because there is no need to – I exist as a male, and my CD’ing is just something I do to relax or feel good. I can most accurately be termed a “crossdresser,” because I cross back and forth between the genders via clothing, no big deal, and no further explanation is needed…

If you’re transgendered, you cannot accurately be termed a crossdresser, IMHO. Maybe you began your “career” as a crossdresser, and you came to realize you were really transgendered, so the crossdressing evolved into something more serious and meaningful. If so, you have evolved into something other than a crossdresser. This reminds me – I once had a TG (on the “road” to SRS) friend on this site, and one day I asked her a CD question. She wrote me back, saying, in her inimitably blunt manner, “I wouldn’t know, I’m not a crossdresser…” even though she is a male by birth and wears female clothing all the time (as far as I know). This is exactly what I’m referring to. Referencing Marleena’s quote (seen above), how can a person be both TG and CD? To the outside world, a transgendered individual would be seen as a crossdresser (which would explain their presence on this forum), but hasn’t that particular type of person gone BEYOND crossdressing?

One more thing – not every MtF crossdresser is interested in becoming a woman, or living their life as a woman, so why does an insistence on transgender proliferate in this section of a site for crossdressers? Perhaps I’m not reading the “happy” threads as much as I should, or maybe I’ve been sniped at too many times by TG’s who take issue with “mere” crossdressers like me. I should say at this point that I have many TG friends (sisters) here, at various points along their personal journey from M to F, and anyone reading my posts should not assume that I’m against transgender in any way – that would be like me being against sunshine, or shadow, or imagination, three things I dearly love and that I know exist. My interest is in the terms we have accepted to define ourselves and nothing more. I like to pick these terms up by the handles (if they have any), study them, hold them to the light, and see them from all angles. To me, transgender is a very interesting yet (at times) a very inaccurate term, and, since I have plunked myself down amidst TG types for better or worse, everyone assumes I must also be transgendered. I know I am not, and I never will be. I am just a crossdresser, a lonely hedonistic fetishist, a male who wears women’s clothing now and then. Can you dig it? I certainly can…

So, if you’re truly transgendered, surely you’re not crossdressing – it’s just dressing, isn’t it? :thinking:

The more I think of it, I think something has been lost in translation… :sigh:

PS – Please don’t get bent out of shape reading this – this is just a technical question, and I mean no harm, OK?

Freddy are you calling me out now?:D

Here's the thing my good friend, they can call me anything. You see when I put on a dress I open myself to ridicule, it's just the way it is. They can call me gay, queer, perverted, freak, or whatever it won't change me. I'm immune to it now.

They don't get it but by putting us all under the TG umbrella it allows them a chance to try understand our different behavior. I think we need to get all the people that don't understand us into classrooms and educate them all of what we're not. You see they don't know the difference between a fetish dresser, a CDer or Transsexual, or Drag Queen.

So just don't call me late for dinner!<--- (can't believe I typed that).:)

We are all integrated into society and are productive members of society. None of us need to be ashamed. I think we are way cool!:)

My other thread was just my inquisitive nature trying to understand what the big deal was.

Quote from dictionary.com


trans·gen·der
[trans-jen-der, tranz‐] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.
adjective
2.
being, pertaining to, or characteristic of a transgender or transgenders: the transgender movement.

I think this answers the question very simply

Evidently, if you are a femme TG person, you are considered crossdressing if you dress en homme, no? Beats me, my head hurts when I think about this stuff almost as bad as Capt. Janeway and time paradoxes.:doh::)

Others may disagree and thats ok, but my understanding is a crossdresser is someone who wears clothes for the opposite gender than the sex they are born with. It doesn't refer to the reasons the person does it. So if you were born a male and wear womens clothing you are a crossdresser. Crossdressing is something a person does and transgender is something a person is. A transgendered person has some feelings of the other gender than they were born into. There are varying degrees of this from wanting to express femininity, all the way to wanting to become the other sex. A transgendered person who wants to transition but chooses not to for whatever reasons, is still crossdressing when they wear the clothes. Even if they want to be the other sex. That person is both transgendered and a crossdresser. Once a person is transitioning they are changing their sex and so they are no longer crossdressing they are dressing for the sex they are. (or are becoming)

You make a HUGE assumption there Freddy. You assume that once you go one way you cannot go back and forth. That is wrong. We have discussed the whole TG vs TS nomenclature before and I have just given up trying to sway your definition.

But being a TG is NOT a one way journey. Going from appearing masculine to feminine and back does not preclude you from being included in the transgender spectrum. The medical community includes cross dressers in the TG spectrum. But then there is no way we can ever change your mind. You do confuse people here though by making your own rules for communication. You have your own definition which conflicts with current accepted psychological and medical definitions of the term. I did notice that you did say it was YOUR opinion. And as such you are entitled. However, as a group or community, having conflicting definitions only makes any discussion impossible.

This has been beaten to death on Marleen's thread and you are just covering the same ground. Your arguments are no different and your replies on this thread will not be any different. You don't have anything new that will change anyone's mind. And we sure can't change yours.

One other idea.....I for instance am transgendered. I want very much to be a girl and always have. Sometimes I dress as a man and sometimes I dress as a woman. Either way you look at it I am crossdressing and transgendered.

I am literally Popeye the Sailor man.

Edit: toot-toot

You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual. One can only be transgendered emotionally/intellectually. Gender is what we think, sex is what we are.
I think, entymologically, that the term 'cross dress' refers to any person wearing clothing of the opposite sex. ('Sex' meaning the phenotype - the actual end result in front of you; either a male (XY) or a female (XX).)
Transgendered refers to a dissonance between one's outward sex and their inner identification of female or male.
You are suggesting that transgendered people can't possibly cross dress, and you are conflating the male/femaleness of sex and gender. Whether or not you feel female, if you are male sex and wear female clothing, you cross dress.
There is no colloquial term for how you dress according to your inner gender orientation. If there were, all transgendered people would be cross dressers (by wearing sex-appropriate clothing), up until the moment they became female, when their cross dressing would stop. And that makes my head hurt. :) MK

Freddie, I love the insights you force upon us. In this case you are perhaps right as far as those in this community view things.

the unfortunate complication to this is that we do not get to set the definitions, a reason most of us hate labels. "General society" gets to set the definitions that the majority will use when discussing a minority, until the minority throws a bitch fit.

Society just doesn't get it (us) and likely never will.

Whatever the reason one chooses to wear women's clothing, we are all sisters here and would hope we all appreciate the technical aspects of our mutual respect for each other.

Barbara

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser?

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Perhaps it's transgendered people dressing as their original biological sex - technically, I guess that could be considered crossdressing.

~Linebacker Melissa

Round and round it goes. Where it stops, nobody knows.

Oh, wait. It doesn't stop. It just keeps going round and round. There is never a consensus on the definition for some words frequently used here -- and I would suspect that the very nebulous "transgender" tops the list.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. “It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There


FWIW, Freddy, the way you describe yourself works quite well for me, too. I am a man who crossdresses as a woman for a variety of reasons, which have to do with pleasing myself and being at peace with myself. I enjoy my feminine side, but have always known that I am not a woman in any way at all. My crossdressing is an activity in my life; it is not related to my identity and sense of self. Consequently, no matter that I support those who are transsexual in what is right in their lives, I generally don't feel I fit in when I visit LGBTQ centers.

Again, this is a confusion about the word transgender. Not everyone who is transgendered is a cross-dresser, cross-dressing is a behavior within the category of transgendered. Really, btw, transgender is just ~cisgendered. It's everything that standard gender behavior doesn't encompass.

Now, there is a question of whether all crossdressers are necessarily transgendered -- ie, some forms of transvestite fetishism or a couple other cases. Personally, I don't think the general sense of transgender is _necessarily_ there, but I think it often is. However, if you wear panties because you think they're soft, and would buy male underwear if it came that way, and that is all it is, then perhaps. _Pure_ fetishism probably isn't, but even for fetishists, there's often a mix of things going on.

Just ask yourself, are you cisgendered? You can be a straight male or female transgendered individual. It just means you don't conform to being cisgendered.

I think the issue here is people assume that mtf or ftm transexual == transgendered, which is not the case.

This is, however, subtle. The definition has several clauses, one of which is personal identity. This really gets at _why_ one does something. For example, if one likes to go to parties (costumed masquerades or whatever) and cross dress, that might not imply one is a cross dresser. A friend of mine always went as a woman for Halloween (usually a greatly exaggerated one), but he was just cross dressing, not a cross dresser. Drag queens are also not necessarily transgendered as they do it for a job, although, in experience, many of them are to some degree. Cross dresser usually implies a stronger connection which usually implies a shift in personal idenity that incorporates some aspect of cross-gender identity, even if one feels that one's gender is one's birth sex. If you see what I mean?

To be clear, I'm not trying to be critical or hard-nosed here -- it _is_ complicated -- but I think the reaction against it is unnecessary. It's not a label, imo, it doesn't bind you to anything. Your experience of life has some commonalities with other people, but one might still not understand what it means to be mtf or ftm or genderless or bigendered, even if one falls in one domain of transgender. And, honestly, I suspect some cross dressers truly don't. Although, in my experience, most cross dressers, those who engage in cross dressers more systemically, tend to be outside the norm.

However, the resistance against the term just seems odd to me.

Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!! It is possible to be transgendered without crossdressing!! But if you were born and stlll are a male, and wear womens clothing you are transgendered. You may think of yourself as "only a crossdresser," but that is really not true!

Wow! A five paragraph dissertation on the semantics of crossdresser versus transgender. My question is, is it really that important? If so, let's go to the references rather than express opinion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/transgender
of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or a transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transge..._cross-dresser
Wikipedia considers crossdresser one of several "Transgender Identities"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender

1. a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

http://transequality.org/Resources/N...erminology.pdf
"Transgender: An umbrella term for people whose gender identity, expression or behavior is different from those typically associated with their assigned sex at birth, including but not limited to transsexuals, cross-dressers, androgynous people, genderqueers, and gender non-conforming people.'

I'd love to find one definition which excludes crossdressers from the transgender umbrella but I can't.

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Originally Posted by MarinaKirax

You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual. One can only be transgendered emotionally/intellectually. Gender is what we think, sex is what we are.
I think, entymologically, that the term 'cross dress' refers to any person wearing clothing of the opposite sex. ('Sex' meaning the phenotype - the actual end result in front of you; either a male (XY) or a female (XX).)
Transgendered refers to a dissonance between one's outward sex and their inner identification of female or male.
You are suggesting that transgendered people can't possibly cross dress, and you are conflating the male/femaleness of sex and gender. Whether or not you feel female, if you are male sex and wear female clothing, you cross dress.
There is no colloquial term for how you dress according to your inner gender orientation. If there were, all transgendered people would be cross dressers (by wearing sex-appropriate clothing), up until the moment they became female, when their cross dressing would stop. And that makes my head hurt. :) MK

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This is exactly what I would have said except better worded ^_^

Eureka I'm transgendered! But I'm still one of those deviant fetish crossdressers. Now I can get some business cards printed. :D

Really, any male that dons women's apparel has to feel somewhat like a woman at some time making him transgendered at least some of the time. A non-transgender male would never wear female clothing.

I think Jacques Derrida must have been a crossdresser or transgendered. This community seems to like to deconstruct words. :)

Since I present as female at work and male at home, at least half the time I am crossdressing.

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!! It is possible to be transgendered without crossdressing!! But if you were born and stlll are a male, and wear womens clothing you are transgendered. You may think of yourself as "only a crossdresser," but that is really not true!

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I find this insulting, honestly. I'm a crossdresser, but I'm in no way a transgender. It's not because I wear the clothes that I want to be female.

[SIZE="2"]A controversial subject, to be sure, unless you read the OP carefully…:straightface:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

You make a HUGE assumption there Freddy. You assume that once you go one way you cannot go back and forth. You don't have anything new that will change anyone's mind. And we sure can't change yours.

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[SIZE="2"]Going “back and forth” is indicative of crossdressing. The prefix “trans-“ indicates something else, and the misuse (in this instance) of that prefix is what I’m trying to get at. Look it up if you don’t believe me. YOU make a huge assumption that I, as a MtF crossdresser, must somehow be transgendered…

I assume from the warm, compassionate “tone” of your post that you’re TG, and you’re getting fed up my so-called attempts to change people’s minds about the term in question. In actual fact I wouldn’t waste my time trying to move solid rock – you can safely dismiss anything I write if it displeases you, but please don’t assume that MY mind is unchangeable. If you can come up with a few original, persuasive thoughts along the lines that I have indicated, stripped of the usual “holier than thou” rhetoric, you may surprise yourself. Try a little tenderness, my dear…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by MarinaKirax

You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual.

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[SIZE="2"]I don’t agree with that – if you are transsexual you are DEFINITELY transgendered…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!!

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[SIZE="2"]I don’t agree with that, either! I mean, says WHO? I am not transgendered just because I, a male, put on a dress, or a pair of panties, or women’s shoes, anymore than I mysteriously become a professional carpenter as soon as I don a tool belt. This whole discussion boils down to what people have chosen to believe, and personal beliefs are numbingly intractable. Such intractability spawns discussion, although nothing ever really changes. The assumption around here is that ALL crossdressers are transgendered, and I disagree wholeheartedly with that notion. I KNOW it’s not true. I crossdress, yet, as I have carefully stated in the OP, no transformation (apart from visual or superficial) to the “other” gender takes place, can take place, or will take place in the foreseeable future…

If you wish to believe you’re transgendered, perhaps to assimilate feelings of community, or try to slot yourself into a self-image that is foggy at best, by all means continue to do so, but my argument is with incorrect yet all-encompassing accepted terminology that ignores input and meaningful discussion. We’re encouraged to question everything, so that’s precisely what I’m doing…
[/SIZE]

Hi Freddy,
I consider myself transgendered, I have feelings (born with) and mannerisms (learned) that are not of my birth sex. One of the ways I express all this is to crossdress. And I do also like my male self, it's just not quite so male as the general population of males.
Thank you for this, and all your interesting questions!
Mona

Only a bunch of women could argue to death a subject like this; therefore, you all (we all) must be transgendered, at least in our thinking mechanisms. A forum full of manly types would have put the subject to rest long ago with a short list of black and white definitions from which they would not move.

Frankly, I personally don't give a whip-stitch what you call me. I am who I am and that's all that I am (I think Popeye was quoted somewhere earlier). We are not defined, or should not be, by what we wear. We are defined by what we do, like it or not. When I'm dressed I want to think that I feel like a woman--only I'm not a woman so I don't really know how I feel. So, when I'm dressed and with a man, I try to act as I think a woman would act--only I'm a man in women's attire so, again, I'm only acting.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I can argue from both sides of the fence if I choose. I can be simply a crossdresser with bisexual or homosexual tendencies or I can be a transexual who thinks or wishes I were a woman. For me, and hear me, this is me speaking, the moment I crossed over the threshold of just dressing to going out with men to be as much like a woman as I can be/act, I became a transexual crossdresser.

I like to read and respond to a lot of the posts here because they shed light on many subjects I've thought about. But every time I read one of these technical sounding posts, I just want to laugh out loud.

I guess I look at as... why? Everyone takes the definitions of both words very personally. For a long time I took my wife watching any show having to do with cross dressers, drag queens, transgendered, transsexual people very personally. I think I took it as something personally attacking me, like pointing it out and making a big deal out of it, but now I realize it's something totally different. And now I walk around in dress the majority of the time when I'm home. I'm a cross dresser because I wear women's clothes, but I'm transgendered because I'm a woman with men's genitals.

There are points in the original post of this thread that I really do understand and have been thinking a lot about lately. I'm not really sure which part of this forum applies to me most - the crossdressing section or the trans section. Lately I have been feeling that when I put on clothes that society would label as women's, I do not in any way feel like I am crossdressing. They are my clothes just as much as those that society would label as men's. How can I be crossdressing wearing my own clothes? I used to consider myself in the terminology of the 70's a transvestite. I wore clothes that belonged to other people and lived with the very real risk of being caught and it not being accepted in any way. It is part of my personality that I hate being told what to do, so wearing women's clothes and risking being caught was thrilling. This was of course a long time before the internet and I had no reference point. I was in a male body and was excited by wearing women's clothes. I was a transvestite (once again, other people's words not mine). But I've always had this really strong desire to be female. I just hid it down deep inside of me and felt terribly anxious in social situations where I was trying to be the male I was supposed to be. In the past two years I have allowed myself to consider that what I felt inside all my life is real. I can't describe myself as a woman in a man's body, but at the same time I feel really uncomfortable describing myself as a man. It just feels so wrong for who I am. I feel that I am somewhere between male and female with a bias towards the female side. So I must be transgendered. But society would most likely be happier labelling me as a male who wears women's clothes. It's something that's constantly on my mind. If I'm not transgendered why is it constantly on my mind that I want so much to be female. But if I don't get the hormones and the surgery (I don't have the money and I'm terrified of the pain involved and afraid to upset the people I love) then which one am I? CD or TG?