Do you think there is an image in the minds of the normals who

are driving the bathroom laws?

It's clear that none of the passed laws are enforceable without actual genital checks. Moreover, the document referenced is a birth certificate which no one carries, so one could not hope to "prove" ones status. So none of the advocates have thought this through.

Just like to old quote about pornography, "I know it when I see it" I wonder if the proponents of these laws have a "clear" example in their minds. The old, "I know it when I see it. I included a few examples taken from the net and was curious if you think these are the people in the minds of the advocates

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d=261236&stc=1http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d=261237&stc=1

Or am or am I really the target?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d=261238&stc=1

Since I'm in one of those areas where the "regular folks" have an "idea" of what the threat is, I'd say they are looking for number four. They sure aren't looking that close at you. You don't fit the ingrained image.

lol! If example d.) in the green panties and red heels came into the men's room while I was using it I would exit as swiftly as possible.

I agree with your premise, how the heck are they going to enforce it? There is such a thing as a probable cause requirement to ask for ID, and clearly a passable or blendable crossdresser could make a good argument that the charge should be dismissed for lack of probable cause. Sort of the same idea about which black people complain for being pulled over for "driving black" when they had committed no traffic violations.

To monkey wrench the thing, maybe we TG's could organize a posse, and hang around ladies restrooms and when we spot some poor hapless woman who is wearing jeans, a sloppy sweat shirt, and a baseball cap blow the whistle. Or, just some woman being fashionably Butch. The attached foto is of Annie Lenox, famous rock singer. Attachment 261240

Yes I agree the images that the proponents have are of what you have shown and more, minus one, I believe they think all of us are sexual deviates they see on porn sites, what are they doing on these sites?, and we are the deviates.

I don't think it's an issue of a mental image of a transperson, whether it is a she or a he. It's the unfounded fear that every transwoman entering a ladies' room is a sexual pervert, who is looking to molest young girls. I wonder why these people think it is safe for their young sons to go into a men's room without any supervision? I am not aware of any sexual perversion happening against young girls in ladies' rooms by transwomen. There are plenty of reports of sexual perversion/molestation happening against young boys and girls by teachers, youth leaders, clergy and male family members. There are also many stories of female on male student inappropriate behavior.

Jennifer, you do not exude traces of male deviant behavior. I wonder if you put up a picture of yourself en femme, but, disclosed you're a genetic male and pictures of a man of the clergy and a scout leader, which picture would the public select as most apt to molest their little boys?

Every woman's public bathroom I ever built; has several stalls for privacy.
This is the norm across the land.
Now where is the problem??? A person goes into a stall, closes the door and latches it.
Who cares, you are all in there for is to take care of a nature call.
I wish these people would worrier about something important.
rader

Read the rest of the law . The bathroom portion is a smoke screen to hide removal of due process in discrimination cases , changes in minimum wage and work conditions. Also to overturn and forbid local anti discrimination laws. There is a separation clause that states that if one part is overturned the other parts stand.

They might also have in mind someone who does dress in regular (non-fetish) clothing, but who looks visibly male. They have no clue why birth males might want to present as women and so they think the only reason to do this is for fetish, and if males dress as women for fetish reasons, then what else might excite them ... maybe they also want to rape women and little girls in bathrooms, or watch them pee and get all excited by it?

This is a small but vocal group of people who are stereotyping CDers big time in terms of their motives (not necessarily how they dress) and this group also has no understanding of TSs and gender dysphoria ... so they lump everyone in the same boat and they paint them all as disturbed men with fetishes.

And conservative politicians are all too happy to use these "objectors" as their mouthpiece (with the help of well-funded conservative think-tank propaganda), in order to create outrage, which they hope will sway some votes their way, away from the left. This has been going on throughout political history with desegreation, abortion, gay rights, and now TG bathrooms.

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Originally Posted by Heidi Stevens

... I'd say they are looking for number four...

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Heidi, this is my thinking too.

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Originally Posted by StarrOfDelite

...To monkey wrench the thing, maybe we TG's could organize a posse, and hang around ladies restrooms and when we spot some poor hapless woman ...

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My wife and I were having this very discussion. Basically, demand to see everyone's birth certificate. The breakdown would be immediate. Afterall, there is no enforcement rule nor avenue to figure out who to ask!

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Originally Posted by Allisa

... I believe they think all of us are sexual deviates they see on porn sites, what are they doing on these sites?, and we are the deviates.

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:)

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

...Jennifer, you do not exude traces of male deviant behavior. I wonder if you put up a picture of yourself en femme, but, disclosed you're a genetic male and pictures of a man of the clergy and a scout leader, which picture would the public select as most apt to molest their little boys?

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THAT is a very interesting idea Stephanie. Put in those terms, I wonder if people would self examine their fear?

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Originally Posted by RADER

...Now where is the problem???...I wish these people would worrier about something important.
rader

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Indeed Rader. Clearly THIS can not be a real issue.

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Originally Posted by Annette_boy

Read the rest of the law . ...

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Very true Annette. The issue getting public attention is bathrooms but outright permission to discriminate is what the lawmakers are asking for. In 1961 white were spreading the hate message about how their daughters were at risk of blacks entering white restrooms. Ignorance was king then and still is.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by ReineD

....and if males dress as women for fetish reasons, then what else might excite them ... maybe they also want to rape women and little girls in bathrooms, or watch them pee and get all excited by it?....

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Sadly Reine, I think this is logic applied. Just sick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annette_boy

Read the rest of the law . The bathroom portion is a smoke screen to hide removal of due process in discrimination cases , changes in minimum wage and work conditions. Also to overturn and forbid local anti discrimination laws. There is a separation clause that states that if one part is overturned the other parts stand.

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I can surely believe it's a smokescreen for weaseling in discrimination laws that would otherwise be unpassable. I have a very low opinion of politicians these days, although I guess it's improper to discuss that here, so never mind.

Its all a smoke screen and 90% of us and the general public are falling for it.
I distrust politicians in general so I don't buy into all their crap.
My guess is pic #1 is what they think we look like and that scares the hell out of most.
The last pic is what they are trying to make the public believe we look like.

My guess is the general public see us as #1, where #2 is clearly much more glamorised. The lawmakers behind those laws are likely thinking of #4. Behind the fact of presentation, even our own motivations (for crossdressing) are still by and large a mystery at a general level. Consequently, the less informed could well easily assume the worst - especially in the wake of actual cases where peeping Toms have crossdressed to enter women's restrooms. There's been at least one case in Singapore and it isn't helping any matters; it makes crossdressing (occasionally portrayed as a fetish) appear to be part of the problem as much as voyeurism is.

The laws strike me (as a foreigner) as a gateway for other discriminatory laws, as well as laws to prevent basic remedy for those who sue for discrimination. It also appears to be an impulse; a knee-jerk reaction from parties who don't know how or are otherwise reluctant to discuss transgender issues. These laws serve to enforce (even symbolically) traditional gender roles in a world where gender roles are no longer traditional. The proverbial bell has been already rung, and they're trying to un-ring it.

I feel it makes absolutely no sense to carry a birth certificate wherever one goes as well, and especially to use it as a toilet access pass. For that matter, were birth gender the sole determinant of which toilet to use, I'd also suppose the very fear that the lawmakers had in mind would all too easily bite them back as it would cause more confusion.

Hi Jennifer,

The Tranny Boogeyman dilemma . . . Yup, people will naturally drum up the worst possible image in conjunction with all the hyperbole about trans folk using the target gender restrooms. It helps to dehumanize and has been a well used propaganda tactic for years. IMO, these bills have little to do with protecting people and more to do with political grandstanding and creating a distraction to take people’s focus off the real political issues (war, terrorism, economy). The Ancient Romans were masters of “eye candy for the masses” a la gladiatorial games and this is very much akin to that concept in that it gives people something to either fight/rant about or others view it as a spectator sport.

A lot of the bathroom bill advocates will continually talk about how preventing transgender folks from using the target gender bathroom (in reality this normally MtF transgender folk as you hear little about FtM folk using the men’s room) will keep sexual offenders away and make it safe for your wives and daughters. The tragic thing is that they continually say transgender in one breath and follow-up with descriptions such as pedophile, rapist, sexual offender, pervert. By continually making the link between the two words and people being people (not all) wind up believing the two are synonymous. All you have to do is deep dive any posts about the bathroom bill on the internet and you will find for the most part some good discussion but mixed in are comments about transgender pervs attacking little children or women. In reality, there has never been a documented case of a transgender person hurting or attacking any person in a bathroom (adult or child). However like some weird seven degrees of Field of Dreams “build it and they will come” . . . say it together enough and some people will believe it.

Will sexual offenders try to use this as an excuse to enter a women’s restroom? I am sure it is possible but then again they are less likely to go through all the hassle of dressing up as a woman, walk around in broad daylight in a crowded mall and try to sneak into the women’s restroom to assault someone in a venue that will get them caught for sure. Sexual predators normally seek targets of opportunity in places where they are less likely to be observed or detected. Believe me I understand the fear and people's (especially women’s) concerns. However many think that allowing transgender people to use the women’s bathroom means it is now open season in the public restrooms. Firstly, the laws which protect all people from assault still apply. If you walk into a bathroom transgender or not and sexually harass or assault another person . . . it is still against the law and you will be arrested. If you go into the bathroom, enter a stall and do your business, wash your hands and leave . . . you have broken no law.

Few advocates of the bathroom bills fail to take into account that several Canadian Provinces and several US States have laws which protect gender identity and allow a person to use the bathroom of the gender they present. These laws have been around for some time with no increase in sexual assaults in women’s bathrooms. Several European countries have gender neutral bathrooms - men and women doing their business together. For any here who have visited a sauna in some European countries. . . you could share a sauna with the opposite gender and both of you with only what nature saw fit to give you . . . again no issues. So what is this preoccupation with where a person goes pee? So long as they do their business, are respectful and leave what is the harm. While these bills are supposedly put into place to protect women from potential assault in the women’s restroom, these anti-trans laws pose a ferocious threat to the safety and dignity of not only trans men and women, but to anyone who doesn't conform to traditional gender roles. In other words, a masculine looking woman may face more discrimination in a public restroom than a fully transitioned trans woman, who can go about her business without anyone being the wiser. Point in case:

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/nort...r-transgender/

And there is this:

http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

This is because the bills were rushed out the door without any real method to their madness and now everyone is seeing a Tranny in every stall and some feel free take matters into their own hands because the law implies they can. In fact one of the assaults above was executed by the police department.

It boggles the mind doesn't it. On a good note, Canada will be introducing "gender identity" legislation on Tuesday. If it passes, discrimination based on gender identity would be considered a hate crime. Keeping my fingers crossed as this is the second time around.

Cheers

Marcelle

I'm tired of the "tolerant" police. Crossdressers in bathrooms should be no big issue. Been going on for years and to my knowledge there has rarely if ever been an issue. As mentioned, as far as I know all women's bathrooms have private stalls. If might be possible to peek through a crack but I doubt that a person would see much.

Tolerance goes both ways. I can't imagine there is much danger in public bathrooms, (although I think with all the publicity more predators have noticed they can walk into a woman's bathroom without breaking the law). But if you're really tolerant than don't belittle a parent of a high school age girl who doesn't want a transgender girl with all her male parts intact and possibly operational, changing clothes and showering in an open locker room with all the other girls. For me at least there is a big difference.

Transgender students deserve acceptance and the same opportunity for an education. That doesn't necessarily mean everything is exactly equal. Now in the US the federal gov. (POTUS) is trying to tie the issue to Title 9. Title 9 was originally written to insure girls had equal opportunity, particularly in sports. Opportunity was based on the number of choices, equal scholarship chances at the college level, equal scheduling, etc. not necessarily the same sports. If we are going to mandate that transgendered girls use the same facilities as GG, how long will it be before some boy decides if he wears a bra to PE he can change in the locker with the girls. Be careful what you ask for, you might not like what you receive.

Is there no room for common sense in tolerance. Evidently not in the PC crowd.

Jennifer,

Great question, which highlights a very important point. You're as much of a "face value" person as there is on this forum. I'd contend that even you are rarely taken at face value in public. Given your location, it's likely that it happens with you more than some of us, but still. I think when people meet you (or me) their mind goes immediately to some preconceived notion of transgender, as your pictures illustrate. I suspect they rarely see you just for you. It seems that it's easier for them to jump immediately to some caricature than to take you (us) st face value.

Even at face value, though, we're hard for the general public to wrap their head around. We can lull ourselves into a sense of security and well being in no small part because of this community, and in your case an encouraging spouse. A lot of us, you included, live in our own little world where it's perfectly normal and without much thought or fanfare to get up in the morning and shave all over, go to your dresser and choose a bra (and boobs), do your makeup as if everybody does it, choose a dress from you closet that makes you happy that day, and heels that speak to you in some way. Each of those things that feel so comfortable and normal to you are so incredibly and incomprehensibly weird to those outside this community that it causes their mind to go all kinds of places that all totally wrong, resulting in unfounded fear and hate.

Not picking on you at all here, but it's your thread and you're the perfect one for this illustration. You absolutely obsess over the length of your dresses and skirts and obsess over other details of how you dress. I love you for that, and I do the same thing (though maybe not as intensely as you!:)). You are as thoughtfully and carefully put together as anybody on here. Jewelry, hair, clothes, shoes... the whole deal. Still, some people upon reading you will immediately default to one of those caricatures that aren't you at all!

I feel this more now than I ever have, and I've been at this for a LONG time. Up until recently people had much less knowledge (however misguided) of the trans community. They were much more likely to form an opinion of me (and of the trans community in general) based on me. I was likely the only trans person they'd ever met/seen. Now almost everybody's opinion is solidly pre-formed. It's much harder to undo those pre-formed opinions than it is to make a good first impression.

Marcelle, sad as the two incidences are, I hope it happens a lot more. The financial cost for the inability to actually enforce a ridiculous law will make that law go away. N.C. Will pay millions. I wish Ms. Bogorad would sure for millions rather than a paltry $25k.

Jennifer. Scary lineup for the Great Bathroom Debacle of '16. That 3rd one looked like a hardened criminal ;)

Hey Stef, since I'm involved in scouts, the church, and a CD, does that give me 3 strikes???? (BTW the scouts and the church ARE taking youth protection seriously, and trying to make improvements. In fact, the training at church clearly states that most issues are NOT associated with sexual orientation or gender identity.)

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

.... I'd contend that even you are rarely taken at face value in public. Given your location, it's likely that it happens with you more than some of us, but still. I think when people meet you (or me) their mind goes immediately to some preconceived notion of transgender, as your pictures illustrate. I suspect they rarely see you just for you. It seems that it's easier for them to jump immediately to some caricature than to take you (us) st face value....

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Hi Rhonda, as you know, I have written many times that I am fooling no one as to whether I am a genetic woman or not. I have also written that I think (my wife thinks as well) that I am likely mistaken for a trans woman by some. So I wonder, upon meeting me, do I reinforce the caricature of a cross dresser or do I dispel it? If the normals have a preconceived idea of what a cross dresser or trans person is, do I fit that vision?

If you look at the links that Marcelle provided, am I more or less likely than these women to be thrown out? And what would that say about gender expectations?

There is no doubt that California, and the Bay Area in particular, is as friendly an atmosphere as one can have but I have never had a bad experience anywhere in California, or Idaho, Hawaii, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, either.

Interesting that after all this discussion, somebody thinks this is about bathrooms.
It's about human rights.

No Paula, we all know the agenda, but the public face of this issue today, is "bathrooms." the war is human rights, the battle is bathrooms. Win enough battles and you win the war

Yes, I think the stereotypical view of a cross dresser is what is driving the bathroom agenda.

And yes I agree that I think when people meet folk like you and me, they assume transgender in transition, and not a "sweet transvestite."

Most people that I engage with will ask something along the lines of, 'so when are you changing your name,' or 'how far along are you,' or some other such thing that indicates a belief that I am transitioning. The typical view of your average cross dresser is one of sexual deviant. And thus if you are a sexual deviant, then who knows what you do to get your rocks off. And therefore, we don't want you in our bathrooms, actually, ANY bathroom, not just women's rooms. In fact, it would be much better if you all just stayed home, or actually didn't exist at all.

When people are willing to engage me in conversation I feel it is important to educate them on just what exactly a cross dresser MAY be, which is often far different then their thoughts.

Exactly Nadine! The same reason the local retro consignment shop would sell me a dress, but not rent me one like they do for ladies. I suppose they might have if I hadn't shown up en drab.

It's all fear of the unknown.

That's why the right doesn't start a fear and loathing campaign against say ... drunken assholes who beat their wives and children. There are a tremendous number of people in the world like this, and they are a far greater threat to public saftey than any trans person ever was. Even though this crap literally fills our emergency rooms day and night, it's not something you can use to scare the bajebus out of people, because everyone knows what that looks like. You don't have to use your imagination to fill in the blanks, and so therefore they can't color that imagination for you.

If they can't control the fear, then they can't harness it for personal gain you see?

This is how our LGB siblings won their public relations battle. Step by relentless step, they began to control their own narrative, by getting relateable examples of nonthreatening, 'normal' LGB people into the public spotlight. Look at the wildly popular show 'modern family' ... it didn't come to exist in a vacuum. It would have been unthinkable in the 80s.

But look at what we have ... RuPaul and orange is the new black pretty much, right now. That and the *#&!*+(!& kardashians. There are of course some shining exceptions to that rule, but for the most part, is it any wonder that people jump straight to rocky horror when they think of trans people?

We had the Human Equal Rights Ordinance (HERO) on the ballot in Houston last year. The religious right campaigned against the ordinance arguing that it would allow men to assault little girls in the women's restrooms and even had television ads of a man (in male clothes) walking into the bathroom stall occupied by a young girl. It quickly became referenced as the "Bathroom Ordinance" and was soundly defeated. In discussions with friends at the time, many were adamant that the ordinance needed to be defeated. After the election, these same friends were surprised by the actual result of defeating the ordinance. The bathroom issue was only a minor part of the ordinance. It effectively gave any business in Houston the ability to refuse service to gays or jews or muslims or bikers or anyone that offended their "religious beliefs". It is effectively a movement that will permit and legalize discrimination. I'm glad that transgendered issues are being openly discussed but we are sinners to many in the religious community. My friends know both Glen and Glenda and none have a problem with me using the ladies room at the places I frequent but they are hesitant to support a law or ordinance authorizing the right. It is not an easy subject to discuss. Now we have our ultra conservative governor and lieutenant governor campaigning statewide to deny rights to our Texas citizens based upon the "Bathroom Laws".

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Originally Posted by ReineD

And conservative politicians are all too happy to use these "objectors" as their mouthpiece (with the help of well-funded conservative think-tank propaganda), in order to create outrage, which they hope will sway some votes their way, away from the left. This has been going on throughout political history with desegreation, abortion, gay rights, and now TG bathrooms.

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There is a hard core and substantial minority group in the United States which, in generalized terms, believes that this was founded as a Christian nation based on the principles set forth in the Old Testament and New Testament. This group believes that the country is being perverted and stolen by liberals, atheists, muslims, immigrants, and non-whites. This group tends to believe in and support authoritarian government by the "rich, well-born and able."


I think that there are groups of oligarchs which are dedicated to obtaining and maintaining control of the process, and they have realized that one of the best ways to achieve that end is to get the support of the white minority group by any means, including propaganda appeals to the lowest sort of hate mongering, and the delivery of campaign financing to candidates who are part of the aforesaid white minority group.

I have no doubt that most of the politicians in North Carolina and Texas and wherever these laws have been introduced are sincere in the beliefs, and think that they are doing God's work. If you've ever had an argument with the mindset that believes there is a god because the bible says so, and that the bible is the word of god because god said so, then you have a pretty good idea of how successful getting these laws revoked without voting the MF'ers out of office will be.

So, ladies, do some research about the local candidates for County Commissioner, State Senator, State Representative are, and don't just go to the polls this November intending to vote for Candidate Republican or Candidate Democrat at the presidential level, and do it in the off-year elections, too.