Discrimination from WITHIN the gender community

I had a troubling experience yesterday. On one of the web communities I'm active on, I saw the profile of a young (23 yr old) male to female transsexual from my home town. I sent her a simple greeting saying I grew up in her town and that I was a CD, telling her I would enjoy chatting and finding out what was new in my old hometown. Her response was quite ugly, saying she did not appreciate being associated with me, telling me I needed fashion advice, and that I was this that and the other for my :girly fantasies", and that I should not go out in public wearing "their" clothes....

I was shocked. I was only trying to say hello and strike up a conversation. What surprised me the most was the elitist attitude, the attitude that we (CDs) were somehow inferior to trans people. Its bad enough to feel discrimination from the general populations, but from people that we are suppose t feel something "in common" with... Geeze...

I was angry, hurt, and really confused. I did pull it together and write a response, simply stating that my intent was only social, and that I was sorry she felt so put off by me (a lowly CD) trying to be social. There were a lot of negative, nasty things I could of said, considering she thought herself a real lady (sorry,a real lady would have conducted herself with much more grace), but I decided not to shrink to her level. So much for the holiday spirit, huh?

Has anyone else encountered such attitudes from the GBLT community? Aren't we all in this together? I guess this just proves my theory to be true, that CDs are still the MOST discriminated group. Yo can be gay or transsexual, and have federally protected rights, but none for being a CD. I was really, really disappointed to come across these attitudes from people that I would expect to empathize with "us".

Alicia, I've been through this many times as well, and it seems to be a stigma attached to us as we are not completing "the journey" as one TS told me. Another had the audacity to say "You don't count in the grand scheme of life as TG".
Its pretty bad when a part of a downtrodden societal group exerts the same prejudice that they themselves abhore.

Enjoy, and relish in what you do for YOU, and you'll find others like you who won't pre-judge.

*much hugs of support*

Zara

Sorry you got treated like that, Alicia. :hugs:


I think it speaks more of the person than it does of either you or even their 'category'. Lots of transexuals would have treated you better and with more kindness.

Elitism exists in every facet of life.

A rotter is a rotter, period.
A good person is a good person, period.

You sound like a good person because you didn't allow yourself to get dragged down to her level while you let her know what a bitch she was being.

Don't let individuals like her deter you.

There are lots of people out there who are secure enough with who they are, however they are, that know how to treat other people from all walks of life with dignity and respect.

Obviously she's not a person you want to spend time with. She can hang out at her own bitch party with like-minded judgemental people.

:love:

I have been involved with GLBT groups and it never ceases to amaze me how little they know about us. We bear the resposibility in part because we are not active enough, politically speaking.

There are TS that will boast aloud that they do not understand CD and do not like CDs. There are gay bars that will not allow CDs or TSs in or at least make it a very hostile environment for them. Everyone has their own struggle going on and sometimes others are viewed as an obstacle to achieving their own agenda. This is normal human behavior.

Still, it is nevertheless much more common that we are accepted by TS and gay people than by the general population.

I am not excusing this barbaric behavior but it does highlight the fact we as a group are still not doing enough to change the way the world sees us and to change the way the laws are written.

Michelia

There always seems to be a pecking order doesn't there?

The posts are accurate, some TS are hostile to CD's. Some gay or lesbian individuals are hostile to TG folks.
These "elitist" TS(pre or post op) or gays are missing the boat that the larger community realized sometime ago. If you split the LBGT forces into their individual parts, they will have NO chance of gaining any traction in the politcal arena. Then if you split the TG community into pieces, CD's TS's etc. those groups don't stand a chance of changing the opinion/perception of the public.
As a united force we have the best chance of improving things in the political scheme of things.

PM me this person's contact info, I will give her a piece of my mind.

Once a screwball always a screwball Alicia. No amount of change will help some people and they will never "get it" no matter who they are.

No matter what one wears or what one's gender identity may be, one may still be a rude prejudiced #$%#@&^!

I know what your saying Hun. Just to bad that this happened to you. I think you look just fine. :hugs:

I'm on line in various web sights and there is allot of the younger crowd (even none cd's) who have no respect. They think nothing of calling you names or insulting you. This "person" you encountered, fits the bill in my view.
What web sight was this Alicia ?

What an absolute rotter... Pride goeth before a fall and all that jazz.

Hmmmm....

A thought.
Could this person feel threatened by CDs because we sit between the poles of binary gender?
This person might feel that the idea that you are meant to be just one or the other might justify or reinforce her feelings wheras the idea that others could be hapilly in between might make her uncomfortable because it might lead her to question her comittment to her change. Or she just might deny the possibility that some might be happy in between because she is not. That lack of imagination (like trying to put herself in others shoes and then complaining because she does not like those shoes so nor should anyone else) could lead her to incorrectly conclude that CDs are just TS without conviction or courage or perhaps straight people trying to take all that is good and valuable about being TS without having to go through all the pain and suffering of body modification....

Any of this sound familiar?

Because if we compare it to the arguments of people who have argued that transexuals are just changing so they can conform to gender roles and gain acceptability rather than deal with their bisexuality or homosexuality and struggle with the rest or if we compare it to the arguments of some who feel that crossdressing in general or fetishistic crossdressing is insulting to women...

We can see the same arguments. Made for the same reasons. Leading to the same errors.
You can only be A or Z and if you try and be Z you can't cause you weren't born that way and your trying to be Z without having earned it, without really being Z, just a mockery of Z and that is insulting.

This assumes that only A and Z can possible exist. Any data that doesn't fit into this polarised view is considered hostilely and 'rationalised' or shoehorned into it.

In this case the TS seems to think that you can be born Meant-to-be-Z and someone who might be for example a U is considered a Meant-to-be-Z without the guts.

I don't think this is elitism, more the primal fear that occurs when a theory or worldview that is very precious to them, that they have invested a lot in, that in fact might be their sole self-justification or source of self-identity meets something that threatens to cause it to collapse like a house of cards.

To defend it a strong emotional reaction is brought forward to aggressively reject the source of discongruity in their worldview, the threatened tenets are restated fervently to ensure conviction in the worldview or belief, casting out doubt or the consideration of doubt let alone any notions of testing or reexamining or revaluating the worldview.

In fact the same pattern of behaviour can be seen in all sorts of subjects from racism and homophobia to simple work practices or inconsequential day to day life things.

In either case, it's the idea that people have to fit into a model or a standard. They don't. Why try to over analyze it and just simply accept folks for who they are? None of us are the "be all" and "end all" of human development. Anyone who thinks they are is self deceptive. As we continue to learn we realize that diversity is indeed the name of the game and if we attempt to define eveything to the the "Nth" decree, we have already given up our quest for ourselves and have allowed someone else to define it for us. I, personally am not ready to do that and value the fact that we are all unique individuals. We contiue to learn and grow together.:happy:

All of us have a**h***s and then some are!

I used to date a post op TS who dumped me after I revealed to her that I was a crossdresser. This is a person who at one time worked with cd's doing hair and makeup, but her quote to me was, "I don't want no man in a dress!"

I've had a few other transsexuals pull the elitest thing on me too and I just don't get it. Can't we all just get along? Apparently not, but that's human nature.

Perhaps, and I know this may be a little controversial, but it reflects something that is happening more an more here the UK. Specifically in Milton Keynes as its where it directly effects me. Now I have always said that MK in a very T tolerant city. Indeed it still is. Except that is when certain T events are held at Pink Punters. Now I shop in MK dressed very often. I go to PPs both on T nights and ordinary nights. On two occasions now I have had a little negative response from sales assistants when I wanted to try on a dress. On the latter of these occasions, which was this Friday I made an issue of it with the SA. Now the store has a T policy which so far as I know and experienced apart from these two occasions is very accommodating to the transgendered community. When pressed however, the two SAs qualified there stance by saying "We have been told that this weekend we are not to let "men" try on clothes in the ladies dressing rooms". More to the point they did not want me to try on such expensive clothes. It would seem that this store has a recurrent problem, in that every few weeks they get descended upon by TVs coming in heavily made up trying on really expensive dresses and clothes leaving make up smudge all over them and not buying a single thing. In fairness the SA did say come back another time and we'll sort you. They recognized the difference between me as a TS and and the "others". So perhaps the TS/TV thing is a reflection of the "bad press" that some TVs (CDs) are giving to the wider community and we are all getting tarred with the same brush. I discussed this with a couple of TS friends and they had noticed the same thing. They also confirmed that on the day in question that there were half a dozen CDs wandering around MK centre making a spectacle of them selves. So I guess on certain weekends I avoid shopping in MK centre.....

Perhaps Alicia, the TS was just be over protective of herself. I've met CDs, and regretted it afterwards as i) they use me as a cover to give them someone to hide behind, ii) usually blow away any anonymity I had whilst out (I get treated totally different when I'm with a CD rather that a TS.) iii) Often turn up in totally inappropriate dress for the occasion thus exasperating i and ii.

Hugs


Kay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alicia_lynn419

Her response was quite ugly, saying she did not appreciate being associated with me, telling me I needed fashion advice, and that I was this that and the other for my :girly fantasies", and that I should not go out in public wearing "their" clothes....

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Actually that doesn't surprise me.
I am not exactly sure why that is, but it seems to happen frequently. Some TSs seem to fear CDs or fear to be confused with CDs.
This "wearing their clothes" I even have read here on CD.com lately (last week) ... not nice and not wise.
In a documentary about a TS on TV, a TS after SRS said " I am more than happy that I am a woman now and can't be confused with the "short skirt fraction" (meaning CDs) anymore".

Yes it is some kind of elitism, but I think it is one that has its roots in a lack of self-confidence which is covered and compensated by some kind of arrogance.

In a more subtle way you will find this "elitism" if you ask the question "what makes a woman/men". Those people usually have a definition that is precisely as general to describe their condition. A more strict definition will be seen as an rude insult (because it would exclude them), a wider one is "nonsense" because it would include more than their condition.
It's annoying.

see it dose not matter who or what group your associated with those persons will be in the mix ... you know "I AM BETTER THAN YOU"........"YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THINK ON ANY LEVEL YOU MIGHT BE LIKE "US"......... "I AM SMARTER OR BETTER THAN YOU"...

see these people are carriers of stupidly .... they can't see that in order to gain respect and acceptance for them in their lives issues .... they too must respect and acceptance others ..... "WHEN ARE WE ALL WITH ISSUES OF GENDER IN SOME WAY OR A OTHER GOING TO UNDERSTAND WE TOGETHER NEED TO ACCEPT EACH OTHER BEFORE WE CAN EXPECT THE REST OF THE WORLD TO DO THE SAME ???????"..........

don't worry for her feel sorry for her as she truly missed the whole idea that we are all different and we are all the same ......

i stopped with accepting my self as a CD ... (a comfort zone if you will) might i be trans what ever ??? could be and might not be ..... i look at the different groups here MTF'S ....FTM'S.... TRANS WHAT EVER ...GG'S ....FAB'S........and i see people all the same no one better than the next ..... and we all need the same respect and understanding ..... if we don't start here within our own how can we ever to be seen as we would all like to be ????.........

Well, some transsexuals are quite nice with transgender or x-dressers, other aren't. Likewise for the LGBT community, some are nice to us while some are hostile.

In most cases it is often a question of personal expérience. Having had a bad one with one or more of us may have shaped their perception of X-dressers.

I am currently involved in discussions with a large LGBT organisation in Europe and I have excellent relation with them. And yes, it is trus that they don't appreciate very well out situations... It is made even more difficult as the term X-dresser covers a wide variety of styles and behaviours...

Not an easy case to make for x-dressers given some of the excentric behaviours that are displaued, even though they are rather rare.

Note that in a true "non discrimination" spirit, even excentric X-dressing styles should be accepted...

:hugs:
Eugenie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eugenie

........................
Not an easy case to make for x-dressers given some of the excentric behaviours that are displaued, even though they are rather rare.

Note that in a true "non discrimination" spirit, even excentric X-dressing styles should be accepted...

:hugs:
Eugenie

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Even when the eccentric CDer (even Fetish) dresses provokingly in normal public spaces, however, I do not wish to be associated with exhibitionist. I am not saying that Alicia is such a person, but put your self in the TS's shoes, she is living in the community full time and may not like the idea of some one coming into the community and drawing unwanted attention to her. She may well be accepted within her community and know to be TS on the other hand nobody may know. As a TS you have no control over how a CD may present when in your company, so it is often better to stay clear. When I go out I go out to blend to be NOT noticed, and is it unfortunate but true, some CDers put there fetish desires above general acceptance, and once the spotlight is on them it does not take much for the audience to start to question the girl with them.

Hugs


Kay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kay_jessica

Even when the eccentric CDer (even Fetish) dresses provokingly in normal public spaces, however, I do not wish to be associated with exhibitionist. I am not saying that Alicia is such a person, but put your self in the TS's shoes, she is living in the community full time and may not like the idea of some one coming into the community and drawing unwanted attention to her. She may well be accepted within her community and know to be TS on the other hand nobody may know. As a TS you have no control over how a CD may present when in your company, so it is often better to stay clear. When I go out I go out to blend to be NOT noticed, and is it unfortunate but true, some CDers put there fetish desires above general acceptance, and once the spotlight is on them it does not take much for the audience to start to question the girl with them.

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If you think about it it is an extremely narrowed few.

That is like every woman has to be considered a prostitute because some women are prostitutes.
That is like every men is an exhibitionist, because some men are exhibitionists.
That is like all humans are murders, because there are some murders among human beings.

I think it is an expression of the lack of ability to define yourself by yourself. An exaggerated dependency on others which you use to define yourself. The consequence is that you have to higher some and lower others in order to make the "generalized" border more obvious and justify your being. No good.

Sorry you got treated like that, Alicia.

i would never treat anyone like that .. after all we have in common and what we go through , A like minded soul would be a welcome treat ..
and yes i have had that problem .. IMHO it's her loss :hugs:

Alicia I have found that whatever the group there are some a-holes who think they are better then others and have no problem showing it don't let that jerk bother you.
You and most other CD's are beautiful kind abd loving people as you are and may I say a far sight better then that person ever may hope to be. :hugs:
Angie

see this upsets me to no end ..... Kay ???? the CD might drag you down ????? excuse tmf out of me ..... i am if i have to be labeled a CD .... though i not dressing and living full time dressed as a women .....i am as i have been my whole life been a full time person with real like gender issues......

who tmf might see some one as they are with gender issues to what ever extreme be put on the frigging pestle ???????..........oh true we have some Fetish CD'S and some that might put that spot light on them .... but all walks of life have this as well .....not just CD'S and people with gender issues .......


so in this regard should the CD'S stay home in the closet???? might the TRANS persons be keep out of sight until they have SRS???????...... after all we don't the "NORMAL " foke to be put in a spot light ..... for some god dame freak show out running around .....

exactly we all do and need our level of comfort and acceptance .... and the thinking that you might be put in a spot light because of some "SUB STRANDED CD FREAK SHOW" shows that once again we have a lot of work to do in our own back yard.....

in every day life there are a lot of different people we choose to be around and also those we don't ..... that's fine thats life ...... same here with this thinking US/THEM thinking ....


lol we are not on the same page buy that type of thinking ..........hell we are not even drinking out of the same six pack............

how sad this thinking of US /THEM is right here with us??????........

Do not judge a whole community by a relative few.