Transformation services selling acceptance?

I Have looked at many transformation services online but have never been to one, I tried making a couple of appointments over the years but they were cancelled for one reason or another at the request of the service, so I never actually had the transformation experience.

Having gone out on my own, I have gotten everything I needed, from Bra fittings to makeup, salon services, and so forth. I know I live in a liberal part of the US for which I am thankful, and perhaps some girls are not as lucky. But it seems to me if you are honest polite and discrete you can get everything you need and not have to pay what I have come to call the "I understand you surcharge"


My attitude is this, These services with some exceptions are ripping our community off, and I for one am tired of people telling me how wonderful and understanding they are, and how they are open minded, and oh I love you all and I can make your femme dreams a reality. Just give me $200.00 of your hard earned dollars or more and I will be happy to do what would cost $50.00 at a makeup store.


I of all people understand the fears and doubts of being gender variant, I know it is hard to take those first steps. Please don't misunderstand, I am not calling into question our desires here only the need.


Please post any thoughts you may have on this subject.

Daphne,
I have been to a couple of 'Transformation salons' and at least here in the midwest they charge the same for me as for a female, for a makeover. I found it surprising, because of the extra time needed in order to hide a beard, contour my face and hide some of my male traits.
Now, I have avoided the 'salons' that offer these services for 2x or 3x the price have paid for the same thing. But there is always someone that will pay the price, otherwise they wouldn't remain in business. I think it is most likely CD's that are new and fearful and possibly feel they have to PAY for the silence of the salon about their little hobby.
Maybe not...
But If we don't patronize the really expensive places they will go out of business!!
Huggs,
Lisa E

Hi Daphne,
I agree wholeheartedly. I have tried 3 different transformation women.
The first one tells me during our consult that she has contacts at major stores and that I can try on and buy what I want, she is told about my limited budget. She said that she can quickly make me up and get us out the door. Her rate for everything was $100/hr. When she glued fake nails on my fingers it cost $100/hr. If we were shopping, $100/hr. It cost me $300 to get out of her door. She made me feel that if I rushed her or asked to skip any detail I would be read instantly. To parahprase, it didn't ge better.
The next service was at the same rate but I had learned to go to salons for the prep work and just had her help me with deportment. She, I must admit was good concise and even helped me get my fake nails off without any extra charge and she wasn't the one that did them. My only fault with her was going rate of $100/hr.
Lastly was that Long island service where I was insulted for havng a human hair wig styled (just the day before ) in such a way that no LI woman would ever wear it. Miraculously she put a hiar clip in it and it was then deemed fine. She made me up to got shopping and then asked if I wanted her to wear makeup (No problem, I want to blend by wearing full makeup and going out with a friendthat isn't even waring lip gloss). her rates and prices went up from her website rates when I got there. She had a couple of dogs in the area where we were working and said repeatedly that , all her clients love her dogs. She took me to a store to shop for a fancy dress or gown and just picked out ones she wanted to wear. They weren't even in my size. She kept on asking if I tried them on would I buy one. I said let me try one and we can see. i managed to get to try on one she wanted that would never have worked since it showed my chest hair and fit way too tight.
Sorry for rambling but you are right when you say they claim to be friends of our community but they are all business when you show up.
The good news for me now is that I can now enjoy the same things GGs experience for the same rates they pay. I can only encourage others here to try the same route. If you want to feel accepted, go to a mainstream salon and pay a fair price to be treated like a lady. I have had wonderful otuings where fellow salon clients have chich-chattted, complemented me on my hair, nail color, makeup, shoes...asked me where I got a piece of clothing...showed me gowns at David's they think might look good on me... and likewise asked to try one I may have tried on.
Some here may have little choice, but I know I wish I skipped trying these places in general. Sara

I guess it depends on just how desparate one is as to whether they are willing to be taken advantage of in this way. I'm just surprised some of the "as seen on TV" hucksters haven't stumbled on this yet. "Get your handy, dandy look like a woman kit for $19.95. But wait, call in the next three minutes and get two kits for the price of one." Only a matter of time I think. Besides we do tend to be gullible.:)

There are some of us out here that don't have the funds to splurge at the rate of $100/hr. Also, for me, I am not comfortable enough to go to a salon. I have let my hair grow out and would like to get it styled so I can wear it in a male form for work and a female form when I can dress. Not sure how to approach a salon about that or what price tag to expect.

i agree totally...ive been out for so long it is no concern of mine anymore where i shop...i use to spend the 50 bucks for makeovers at mac cosmetics and such but found i can do better myself (experience)..i do not have any trouble "passing" which seems to be of great concern to many here...i still believe confidence and attitude is the most needed ingredient to "pass" for those still concerned with such silly ideals...this topic has always been a pet peave of mine along with acceptance..i just do not understand why some girls are so engrossed with these ideals when they should be concerned about learning to do their own make-up and such..oh well...explains why some of the gender organizations will never get a dime of my money...good post..about time somebody else figures out the CD community is easy to rip off

Just do it on our own ! Why should we discriminated one more time by

having to pay these surcharges ? I said and I say again, lets just do it on

our own - Avoid these places !


JoAnne Wheeler

[SIZE=4]I guess I will be the one to post an opposing view.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I run a transformation service, my standard non-specific rate is $60/hr. I have a list of services on my web site that are package deals that include wigs and makeup kits and such. My opposition to some of your statements is in reference to your objection to their rates. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]If I depended on transformations only, I would end up working very, very little. I work in salons on other "non-transformation" clients all the time and base my rates off standard shop rates. We charge $100 an hour for color correction, something most of us don't ever need, or know anything about, but that is the going rate. Makeup can depend on the artist and the products used, but $50 to $100 is the norm around here.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I have spent 4x the average rate of time trying my best to makeup a male face into an apparently female face, and that is on a package rate that does not increase if it takes me longer. Think of flat rates in an auto repair place, same thing. Generally in a salon if it takes way over the standard amount of time, the cost goes up. If I do a spiral perm that takes two of us 5 hours total, the client is charged at least $300. That is the norm.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Another point I got across to one of my transforamtion clients, when he objected to my flat $60 per hour rate I asked what his hourly bill rate was to his clients for his expertise. As an attorney he said $120 an hour. As soon as he said that he realized that I should be paid a rate that reflected the level of skill and training needed to do my "job".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Not that a lot of you need a service to help you, but a lot of my clients do not belong to this forum, are scared to death, would not step into a salon for any reason, and many just want someone to assure them that they are ok. I have had clients pay for entire days just to talk and get pointers on how to dress, some even taking notes. We are not all alike. There is a lot of insecurity that many of you have overcome.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]When I was a puppy CD I paid for a transformation with Henry in San Francisco at the rate of $200 hr. It was worth every minute that he spent and to this day I try to recreate some of the techniques that he showed me. Do I regret spending $400 on the service? To a certain point yes because now I know how to do it but back then I made more appointments with him. It was worth every penny at that time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I am so proud that so many of you have the ability to walk into settings and make your needs known, but there are also a huge number of our sisters that still feel that they are alone. They obviously will not be speaking here since most of them think that forums such as this one are designed to sway them and push them into making rash decisions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]What do you charge for your services in your drab job? Are they justified? Did it take you 20 minutes to learn how to do that job? I seriously doubt it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Just my 47 cents worth..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

I can understand and appreciate charging market rates for services, and as a tradesperson I understand charging what you are worth.

I have the darkest shadow I have ever seen, and it took the SA at MAC like a minnute to cover it. Conturing my nose and cheek bones takes about twenty seconds. I doesn't seem to me that working on a man is any more difficult than a woman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tamarav

[SIZE=4]I guess I will be the one to post an opposing view.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I run a transformation service, my standard non-specific rate is $60/hr. I have a list of services on my web site that are package deals that include wigs and makeup kits and such. My opposition to some of your statements is in reference to your objection to their rates. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]If I depended on transformations only, I would end up working very, very little. I work in salons on other "non-transformation" clients all the time and base my rates off standard shop rates. We charge $100 an hour for color correction, something most of us don't ever need, or know anything about, but that is the going rate. Makeup can depend on the artist and the products used, but $50 to $100 is the norm around here.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I have spent 4x the average rate of time trying my best to makeup a male face into an apparently female face, and that is on a package rate that does not increase if it takes me longer. Think of flat rates in an auto repair place, same thing. Generally in a salon if it takes way over the standard amount of time, the cost goes up. If I do a spiral perm that takes two of us 5 hours total, the client is charged at least $300. That is the norm.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Another point I got across to one of my transforamtion clients, when he objected to my flat $60 per hour rate I asked what his hourly bill rate was to his clients for his expertise. As an attorney he said $120 an hour. As soon as he said that he realized that I should be paid a rate that reflected the level of skill and training needed to do my "job".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Not that a lot of you need a service to help you, but a lot of my clients do not belong to this forum, are scared to death, would not step into a salon for any reason, and many just want someone to assure them that they are ok. I have had clients pay for entire days just to talk and get pointers on how to dress, some even taking notes. We are not all alike. There is a lot of insecurity that many of you have overcome.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]When I was a puppy CD I paid for a transformation with Henry in San Francisco at the rate of $200 hr. It was worth every minute that he spent and to this day I try to recreate some of the techniques that he showed me. Do I regret spending $400 on the service? To a certain point yes because now I know how to do it but back then I made more appointments with him. It was worth every penny at that time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I am so proud that so many of you have the ability to walk into settings and make your needs known, but there are also a huge number of our sisters that still feel that they are alone. They obviously will not be speaking here since most of them think that forums such as this one are designed to sway them and push them into making rash decisions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]What do you charge for your services in your drab job? Are they justified? Did it take you 20 minutes to learn how to do that job? I seriously doubt it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Just my 47 cents worth..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

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Tamarav,
I agree with you and my rather lengthy post ittended to point out my experiences with these services that claim to be part of our community but when you use them they are often over priced and rude or decieving in thier approach. Firstly, $60/hr. is a far cry from $100/hr. Forty percent off or 166% more. You also mentioned that if you did only M to F transformations you would work a lot less and need to charge more. That would be true if you think that just because you work less hours you should be paid more. I know from just hearing about your work ethic that is not your approach.
Now lets agree for the moment that $100 is a fair price for M to F transformation time. Clients should at the least be dealing with licensed hair and makeup people (often times not, unfair to professionals like you), and to be treated respectfully and not told one thing on the phone and find a totally different situation when we arrive. In LI I was assured she new the area and all I needed to do was relax. The first mall we go to doesn't have the stores she thought they did. If one of us expects a personal shopping experience they should advocate for us not question us repeatedly as to whether or not we will buy something we haven't even seen let alone tried on.
If I were in your neck of the woods I would seek you out for help because you are the real deal. Not because you dress, but because you would give good service and are reasonable. As far as the rate for color correction, that is a highly technical skill and great colorists are worth every penny. I also would expect that that price applies to all clients. By definition your are repairing a previous problem which is often times a costly service. Just see what a mechanic will charge to finish a job a backyard mechanic first started.
Sara

I think this discussion is missing the point just a little. There are good businesses and bad businesses .... the rates quoted sound fine to me, you are asking for professional help after all. The trick is to ensure that you GET a good service. Are there services out there taking advantage of people who do not know what they are doing or what to expect ? Probably ! Anytime there is a socially marginalized group, there will be those who try and prey on them. Try and research who you are thinking about seeing - or find one that you can afford the travel to reach (where you have found out that the service is good/great).

C.

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Originally Posted by Dylen

Also, for me, I am not comfortable enough to go to a salon. I have let my hair grow out and would like to get it styled so I can wear it in a male form for work and a female form when I can dress. Not sure how to approach a salon about that or what price tag to expect.

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Try a salon not in your hometown. Why? Because nobody will know you, and if they think you're a little green splotch from Pluto it won't matter. If they start laughing at you the instant you ask your questions, you simply walk out. They're shallow, narrow mindedness is meaningless to you.

You can call ahead too. Be specific about what you want, and be specific in asking for costs, etc. You approach a salon about these things in the same way you approach any other business. You've got questions, you've got money, they've got answers, and they want your money.

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Originally Posted by Sarasometimes

That would be true if you think that just because you work less hours you should be paid more. I know from just hearing about your work ethic that is not your approach.

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I think that you are missing one point here... Part of the service is to have a safe and comfortable/discrete environment for CDs. It means not servicing GGs.

It she doesn't charge for this difference, she could be out of business pretty quick. I agree on her charging more while bringing a more comfortable environment.

The only transformation service I've ever been was in Mexico, and it was a great experience. It's run by a marriage (he, of course, is a CD), and the wife is the makeover artist. They charge very little for the entire transformation service (about 50$), and it includes, using wigs, shoes, clothes or whatever you need from their site.

They run parties and keep a very healthy (I'd dare to say "family friendly") environment. They even have a CD friendly taxi driver, and have a locker service.

What I've found from some "specialized sites" the Internet is sometimes just ridiculous expensive. Shoes, regular clothes, forms, etc too overpriced, and they sometimes don't even post pictures of the real items. Don't get the point of buying in these places over the Internet :doh:

I guess that it just depends. It's up to everyone to decide to expend their money in whatever makes them feel comfortable.

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Originally Posted by jruiz

I think that you are missing one point here... Part of the service is to have a safe and comfortable/discrete environment for CDs. It means not servicing GGs.

It she doesn't charge for this difference, she could be out of business pretty quick. I agree on her charging more while bringing a more comfortable environment.

The only transformation service I've ever been was in Mexico, and it was a great experience. It's run by a marriage (he, of course, is a CD), and the wife is the makeover artist. They charge very little for the entire transformation service (about 50$), and it includes, using wigs, shoes, clothes or whatever you need from their site.

They run parties and keep a very healthy (I'd dare to say "family friendly") environment. They even have a CD friendly taxi driver, and have a locker service.

What I've found from some "specialized sites" the Internet is sometimes just ridiculous expensive. Shoes, regular clothes, forms, etc too overpriced, and they sometimes don't even post pictures of the real items. Don't get the point of buying in these places over the Internet :doh:

I guess that it just depends. It's up to everyone to decide to expend their money in whatever makes them feel comfortable.

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As I said in my rebuttal, more forthe privacy is fine just be respectful. Yes one should try to get referals and I did forthe LI woman and then i get there and she is very different. I have tried enough of these places and with a 1 out of three success rate I am done. Fortunately for me i can get what I need now from the mainstream market.
I also stand by my statement that just because somone wants to work less hours that in and of itself doesn't enttle them to higher hourly rates. I can't go to my boss next week with that approach and get very far.

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Originally Posted by Sarasometimes

I also stand by my statement that just because somone wants to work less hours that in and of itself doesn't enttle them to higher hourly rates. I can't go to my boss next week with that approach and get very far.

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It's not because this person is lazy and wants to work less hours :brolleyes:

This person would be guaranteeing privacy and full dedication.

If I follow your reasoning, if I hire an exclusive chef who owns a restaurant, just for preparing dinner for me and my wife, it should be really cheap. I'm saving him lots of work if he'd stay at the restaurant serving 20 customers. He's "working less hours".

He'd only cook for me and my wife if he can make as much money during the same time. And I'd pay the additional rate for the exclusive service.

Try to vision this as a business owner, not as an employee.

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Originally Posted by jruiz

It's not because this person is lazy and wants to work less hours :brolleyes:

This person would be guaranteeing privacy and full dedication.

If I follow your reasoning, if I hire an exclusive chef who owns a restaurant, just for preparing dinner for me and my wife, it should be really cheap. I'm saving him lots of work if he'd stay at the restaurant serving 20 customers. He's "working less hours".

He'd only cook for me and my wife if he can make as much money during the same time. And I'd pay the additional rate for the exclusive service.

Try to vision this as a business owner, not as an employee.

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Can you please clear up what part you disagree with me on. I get the impression that you feel a person can charge more just because they want to work less hours. You quoted that part of my post and then, quite frankly used an example i didn't follow. I will clarify my two simple points. You should charge a fair price for good or exceptional service and deliver on that degree of service. Secondly, simlpy shoosing to work less hours, doesn't entittle you to charge more. Thses people can do other things with thier time when not doing M to F transformations. Anyone else out there willing to help me on this one?
Bottom line, M to F places are not always as welcoming and friendly as they profess to be. I have first hand experiences to prove that.
Jruiz, one more quick one for you about this chef. Is it OK after he/she tells you how great they are, give references, and how they are real friendly and true, they then show up, flat out ask you if you will eat what they prepare, they then make you a cheese sandwich on stale bread and argue with you about you not eating it? Is that OK?

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Originally Posted by Sarasometimes

Can you please clear up what part you disagree with me on. I get the impression that you feel a person can charge more just because they want to work less hours. You quoted that part of my post and then, quite frankly used an example i didn't follow. I will clarify my two simple points. You should charge a fair price for good or exceptional service and deliver on that degree of service. Secondly, simlpy shoosing to work less hours, doesn't entittle you to charge more. Thses people can do other things with thier time when not doing M to F transformations. Anyone else out there willing to help me on this one?
Bottom line, M to F places are not always as welcoming and friendly as they profess to be. I have first hand experiences to prove that.
Jruiz, one more quick one for you about this chef. Is it OK after he/she tells you how great they are, give references, and how they are real friendly and true, they then show up, flat out ask you if you will eat what they prepare, they then make you a cheese sandwich on stale bread and argue with you about you not eating it? Is that OK?

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I agree with you sara, one hundred percent.
I have one other question, can someone explain to me what are these tricks that make you look femm . I have read a lot of makeup books over the years and it seems to me that covering beard shadow and eyebrow lifts are nothing but common knowledge. At least to us.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

I agree with you sara, one hundred percent.
I have one other question, can someone explain to me what these tricks to make you look femm . I have read a lot of makeup books over the years and it seems to me that covering beard shadow and eyebrow lifts are nothing but common knowledge. at least to us.

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ha!..tricks..this is funny as here is another pet peeve of mine....there are no tricks...its a sales scam to draw in neverous/scared cd's who think they need some "trick" in make-up...i really do dislike bereating those closet dwellers but come on..you can learn to do your own make up and it is not that difficult...some of the best concealer/foundation i ever found is readily available at walgreens...i stumbled across this when i helped out a GG who was out of work recently by buying a make over ($30)...thats all she charged and is supportive of the small community so i just paid for the service when i did not need too...i still use many products from MAC and bare essentials (blush) but as referenced above there are cheaper alternatives...point is i just learned to do it myself and my skills are developed were i do not need any make over service..it also helps to have female features ie: small head, butt, hips..very limited facial hair...etc like i have...the manly guys in this little hobby well its going to be a difficult journey for sure so may be spend the dollars on a professional 1 time and learn a few "tricks"...however there is not much that can be done if you really are a manly man..i do believe we can all agree some out there do take advantage of the closet dwellers and that i have a problem with..others well may be laziness is the norm....i seriously believe you have to have confidence and know your size and talk like you know GG products....i cringe when i here some CD'ers ask "what size am I"..that tells me (and any SA at any clothing store) they haven't a clue where to begin and any scam transformation service sees an easy cash pay day

I'm going to start with Math though. How many TG's are going to come to a store for transformations? It would be nice if you could fill your day, so lets say 8 in an 8 hour day. It's completely unrealistic by the way. You're going to get 8 that want to come at 6 Pm on Friday night and 8 at 6 pm on Sat night. But I'll keep the math simple. 8/day in a shop you rent for lets say $100/day (also not realistic). You have other bills to pay (power, license, tax, acct etc) so lets just say all your bills add up to $300/day. (way too low to be realistic). If you charge $50/makeover you'd make $400/day (8x$50).

Thats a great profit of $100/day. $600 wk for a 6 day work week. Now work 50 wks a year. Congratulations. You just made $30,000/yr and you worked 6 days a week 50 weeks to do it. Now pay your Fed income taxes 30%. Now you have $21,000 left over as your income. live in a state with income taxes? A couple more thousand. You take home $19,000.

Only one problem. You're probably only going to get 15-20 customers per week that can come when you can see them. Its a money losing proposition for someone that only does makeovers to charge $50 for one hour.

That being said Transformations by Rori used to be very reasonable to just do your makeup, but every time I went there I probably spent $400 on clothing makeup, makeover and accessories.

I'm an absolute capitalist at heart and think everyone who provides a service that people want to buy should be able to charge what the customer is willing to pay. You're paying for their expertise and hoping to learn something. Ive paid more than 200 for a horrible meal in a restaurant with people I didn't like. I'd love to learn something, look fabulous and spend a couple of hours doing it.

Transformation services are selling the first-step on a long path; a positive experience/the start of gaining confidence, and SELF-acceptance...

Well, in all, I feel the overcharging for makeover services ends up being money well spent, if it gets you on the road to embracing your femme side, and gradually integrating it more fully into your life. A few hundred dollars pales in comparison to the drink tabs & dinner checks for hundreds of evenings out, as well as, if you're able to, filling a walk-in closet with womens clothing & shoes!

I think they're a logical starting point, and there are several responses to those that start that way:
1. A "one-time" bucket list sorts thing; OK I've had a makeover, and take it no further
2. The most common, I think, response is gaining some confidence & skills (key here is to start going out dressed, many services can provide that, too, and arguably a beter value for money, than simply the makeovers, since going out is so much a mental, vs. a practical/how-to sort of barrier) and moving on from them, once you realize your'e overpaying for substandard items.
3. Some t-gals stay/relish, and such spots are the full extent of how they embrace their femme side (perhaps lumping in support groups & conventions in here, too).

"Fresh Blood" is the key to beng able to eke out some income from these services. I've found you're often at the "mercy" of whoever is doing your makeover, but since you don't yet know what works/looks best on you, its still a decent starting point.

What with Internet shopping, and the current economy, think things will get even tougher for these places (youtube makeup how-to's can substitute a bit, and think younger people, who often are the SAs, are more accepting, so we'll see gradual changes).

While I no longer use these sorts of places, I don't hold any grudges against them- they can often "leap-frog" years of flailing/trial & error, so they do have their place! Since traffic is so much slower, they essentially are forced to charge more, to keep the doors open.

Far too many newbies seem to think us accomplished gals are interested and willing in givng them makeovers, I quickly dissaude them of that notion, and often offer to meet them at the salon, after their makeovers! Spending some bux, vs. ending up not going out, seems a worthwhile trade-off, in the big scheme of things!

Some also make an effort to try and "tone-down" the common hooker/faux**** goals of many newbies, so those going out are served well, by this, too, if blending/passability are concerns (vs. "shock factor" sorts).

cheers,
Paula

Just an old tale:

The retired plant engineer is called back in to repair a machine that had stopped the factory. No one could figure out what was wrong, or how to fix it. The retiree comes in, looks at the machine for a split second, tightens a single screw . . .and, within minutes, the factory is back into production.

When his $10,000 bill comes in, he is asked to itemize the charges - after all, he spent only a minute inside of the plant. He sends back a second bill: "Cost to tighten screw = $1. Cost of knowing which screw to tighten = $9,999."

If every CD knows how to transform yourself, I guess that transformation services would be out of business...

I think they are a help for the very new and very closeted.
So they have their place, yes it's true you can find things much much cheaper thats a given....but you are paying for the experience..........for the very scared the very new the very skittish and ones that have no where else to practice or buy things.
Also want to add in the price might factor in ( might) the high amount of cders that do not show........that saddly is a given as well. I had a friend thatstarted a Transformation service.......they would be on the phone with her for weeks before....planning all excited...she setting up things they wanted to do getting a sitter ect at the appointed time....no show and never to hear of again.She was an accepting partner and wanted to help others so set this up...ended up giving it up because she got burned so many times.

Don't get me wrong, good ones should charge a fair price for thier services and privacy. My experiences are that many charge those prices and give poor service, have horrible attitudes, demean and exploit. They suck you in and then don't deliver. Glad I am done with that part of the struggle. Unfortunately the only good one has retired, katie Wannabee north of Philly. I gladly paid her $100/hr and she helped me immensely. She was confident enough to even complement me on the makeup application I got in a salon earlier in the day. She was encouraging, knowledgeble and kind. I hope she is doing well in her endeavors, Sara

Thank you all for your responses.

I understand charging for service. What I object to is this selling understanding, friendship, and once, I have seen listed "Motherly Council". I know I am about to sound like A Class A Jersey Bitch! but give me a break!

That pure and simple is preying on CDs insecurities and it is downright evil. Taking advantage of some ones weakness. In my view it is no different than taking the weak kids lunch money.

When I was a baby girl, I went looking for this motherly council, this support, and all though I never actually made it to the service, I was crushed emotionally three times, over a year falling for this crap! Make an appointment, send a deposit " i love you" sorry cant help I am busy this week. No problem I will climb back in my closet and cry for a few months.

After that I went to to support groups and got more of the same. My own sisters the ones who said Lets be nice to each other because no one else will! Got done talking about themselves and how advanced they were, and how they went here and did that. Smiled at me and said we are going to help you Daphne, treated me like they treat all newbies. Like cheerleaders treat the fat awkward girl at lunch.

Do you want to know where this girl found acceptance, got help, advice, and made friends, both men and GGs. At the Lingerie store, the dress shop, the makeup counter, and the wig shop, and the salon, and it didn't cost a penny more than It would cost anyone else.

I know how scary it can be and I know people are cruel, the sad thing is, the cruelest people I have met on my journey are the ones who claim to love us. Worse than those are some of our own, the pretty girls at the cool table in the lunch room.

So to all you newbies, I will help you if I can even give you a make over for free! if that can be worked out travel wise and so forth.

And to you advanced pretty girls. This pretty girl who made it without your help, no longer has time for you, I would rather meet my girlfriends before they get to the salon and support them! On the way up as it were, because being understanding, compassionate, and caring means more to me than being pretty. Get over yourself!

I realize this is getting a little off topic but one of the posts in this thread has gotten under my skin.

I also realize that my personal experiences were very painful and perhaps give me a somewhat jaded view.

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Originally Posted by DaphneGrey

My attitude is this, These services with some exceptions are ripping our community off, and I for one am tired of people telling me how wonderful and understanding they are, and how they are open minded, and oh I love you all and I can make your femme dreams a reality. Just give me $200.00 of your hard earned dollars or more and I will be happy to do what would cost $50.00 at a makeup store.

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Jolan Tru,

I wouldn't be surprised if these services are owned and operated by some of our "sisters". Everything is for sale, even friendship... That's how our materialistic world works. I think people who use such services doesn't deserve anything else than to be ripped off by those parasites.

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Originally Posted by PaulaSF

Transformation services are selling the first-step on a long path; a positive experience/the start of gaining confidence, and SELF-acceptance...

Well, in all, I feel the overcharging for makeover services ends up being money well spent, if it gets you on the road to embracing your femme side, and gradually integrating it more fully into your life. A few hundred dollars pales in comparison to the drink tabs & dinner checks for hundreds of evenings out, as well as, if you're able to, filling a walk-in closet with womens clothing & shoes!

I think they're a logical starting point, and there are several responses to those that start that way:
1. A "one-time" bucket list sorts thing; OK I've had a makeover, and take it no further
2. The most common, I think, response is gaining some confidence & skills (key here is to start going out dressed, many services can provide that, too, and arguably a beter value for money, than simply the makeovers, since going out is so much a mental, vs. a practical/how-to sort of barrier) and moving on from them, once you realize your'e overpaying for substandard items.
3. Some t-gals stay/relish, and such spots are the full extent of how they embrace their femme side (perhaps lumping in support groups & conventions in here, too).

"Fresh Blood" is the key to beng able to eke out some income from these services. I've found you're often at the "mercy" of whoever is doing your makeover, but since you don't yet know what works/looks best on you, its still a decent starting point.

What with Internet shopping, and the current economy, think things will get even tougher for these places (youtube makeup how-to's can substitute a bit, and think younger people, who often are the SAs, are more accepting, so we'll see gradual changes).

While I no longer use these sorts of places, I don't hold any grudges against them- they can often "leap-frog" years of flailing/trial & error, so they do have their place! Since traffic is so much slower, they essentially are forced to charge more, to keep the doors open.

Far too many newbies seem to think us accomplished gals are interested and willing in givng them makeovers, I quickly dissaude them of that notion, and often offer to meet them at the salon, after their makeovers! Spending some bux, vs. ending up not going out, seems a worthwhile trade-off, in the big scheme of things!

Some also make an effort to try and "tone-down" the common hooker/faux**** goals of many newbies, so those going out are served well, by this, too, if blending/passability are concerns (vs. "shock factor" sorts).

cheers,
Paula

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Just because you have been out does not make you an expert on being trans and what newbies want or need. I would rather meet my girlfriends before their makeovers, help them feel pretty, and good about themselves. And then take them out.

Perhaps you shouldn't generalize about what other girls are willing to do.

I have been living! my bi gender existence for years. Happen to be pretty good at thank you and have no problem helping out newbies.

The one thing I never lost site of on this journey was how hard it was and is, or the pain financial and emotional that I suffered allowing myself to be preyed on on by these transformation businesses. And the CD friendly internet sales sites as well! I if I can help spare a girl some or all of that I will.

And just to clarify, Daphne is one hundred percent out of the closet! I work, go to the bank, the market, the beauty salon, and any other place I please in broad daylight. My neighbors know me, As well as they know my male self. And I have had more interaction with the real world, than any other girl I have met personally, and most but not all of the girls I have met online. Indeed I meet more people and make more friends as Daphne than I do in my male existence. I pass all the time, not so much on looks, but on attitude, body language, posture, voice, figure (my own by the way, no silicone) and making a true and honest effort. I have spent countless hours developing my female self and integrating her with my male personality.

Don't get me wrong I am happy for you and everyone else who has found the courage and strength it takes to pursue their lives and eek out a bit of happiness in a society that at best treats us as an oddity, and its worst ,well thats another thread. I want you and every other girl to be safe and happy.

Let me fill you in on something Paula, as much fun and empowering as it is to go on outings to trendy nightclubs after dark, flirt with trannie chasers at fetish and goth clubs in the most liberal gay friendly city in the world can be, (bought the Tshirt) It just does not impress me that much. I am glad you do it and I hope it makes you happy. So I don't say that to hurt you, I say it because its the truth. I am sure it is very impressive to someone who has never been out, who might herself be a role model for someone who has only underdressed. Indeed there are many girls on this site who are much further along, who don't look up to me. You I and every girl on this site has been there, longing for the moment when we would find the courage to take the next step. Climb the next hill.

Gender variant life is a life of fear, firsts, and apprehension. And for many Triumph.

These predators sell the snake oil cure for this fear. And I happen know they are not needed at least around here. What the new girls need is support encouragement and honesty

Your I am better than the newbie/ I am an accomplished gal attitude only makes it worse.

Try not to forget where you came from, you were a baby girl once too.

Don't include me in your little look how great I am club.
Do send me all the newbies you find that you are to good to help.
And don't even think of barking up my skirt about being advanced!

Your pretty, and accomplished yes and you should be proud of that. And I wish you the best.

[SIZE=4]Something about this thread really bothered me, selling "acceptance". I attempted to write a response and found that no other voice was going to be listened to by the original poster. She had spoken, (and still is for that matter) the rest of the opinions are simply filler and justification for some sort of personal problem.[/SIZE]
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Originally Posted by tamarav

[SIZE=4]Something about this thread really bothered me, selling "acceptance". I attempted to write a response and found that no other voice was going to be listened to by the original poster. She had spoken, (and still is for that matter) the rest of the opinions are simply filler and justification for some sort of personal problem.[/SIZE]
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I listened to your views, And I agree with some of them, as a matter of fact I agree with quite a few of views within the posts of the members. but all one has to do is google MTF transformations and you will find the services I am talking about. They are taking substandard service and merchandise and overcharging for it. And they are getting away with it because they convince new CDs they want to be there friends etc. I have no problem with you or any other licensed professional charging what you think you are worth or even what the market will bear. I respect your right to sell transformations and charge whatever you will for them. You are obviously very talented and I am sure your customers appreciate you, And you have every right to make a nice living.

The services I am talking about do not nearly have your level of skill, and in many cases are not even licensed. As a professional stylist who does both, I would have thought the Idea of an unlicensed improperly trained person claiming to be a stylist/gender therapy expert/best ggfriend taking advantage of people in our community, while taking away legitimate business from people like you, might be a little upsetting.

There are several things about these services that I disagree with. And yes it is personal. And perhaps I am being to jaded but I stand by my comments as well. We may disagree but I did not mean to offend you.

Dear Tammy,
Looking to your detailed description ,I have an imression that you are the only genunien person will give justice to our requirements & fantasy enjoyable. Cost may not be the factor against your efforts/hard work & offcourse the time spend b/h it. Pl.give your comments / advise.
Thanks,
vjaducd