For Those Contemplating Full Time Femme

Much in the way that I felt at one time I was the only cross dresser in the world sometimes I feel that I am the only one in the world that feels the way that I do now.

I have come to the conclusion that I am more than a cross dresser and less than a transexual. It seems to me, for the most part, that transgender individuals fall into the following camps:

- they dress as a sexual fetish, usually lingerie, hosiery, things of that nature
- they dress for periodic outings with other cross dressing friends to dinners and clubs and the odd shopping run
- they dress completely or almost completely within the confines of their home with or without the knowledge or support of their girlfriend or wife
- they realize that they are not cross dressers and transition to become women, taking hormones, coming out to the world, having SRS and eventually becoming as close as current day science can get to a full time functional woman

I seem to have found myself in a category that so far has a very small population and I am trying to find others who feel and want to live as I do.

Through my journey I have reached a point where I can see that I have no real issue with my male biology, I have no urgent requirement to change through surgery. So I guess what I am saying is that I do not feel like I am in the wrong body. On the other hand I am no longer able to feel comfortable dressing and playing the male role. I do not find that I can return to my male life without a great sense of discomfort. It is at those moments that I realize that I am not in the wrong body, I am in the wrong gender.

To clarify, as I am still trying to understand this myself. I have found through the past year plus now that I have been out on my own and able, within my private life, to dress as much as I like in femme mode that it is becoming very natural for me to be that way. When I have to change into a male representation such as when I visit my kids, my mother or at times when with my now ex-girlfriend, I felt like I was in the wrong clothes.

This need to dress female more and more is not a pink fog, because I have had a chance to do this for such a long time freely and I never feel the need to dress male. What I am finding is that this outward expression of being female resonates with my soul.

Now I have been thinking about taking the next step and going 100% femme in my life (with kids, family and work). One big obstacle that was stopping me was my ex-girlfriend. While she had become quite accepting and tolerant of my dressing in private and the odd public outing together, she was not able to accept me being that way 100% of the time. This created a dilema for both of us because I had an innate need to be me and she did not want to compromise me being me. It was noble of her to step back and give me room to think about this and sometimes I feel that it is selfish that I am considering this and yet I know how unhappy I was in my last long term relationship where I had to compromise who I was and I did not want to repeat history.

It is a tough road we travel.

Anyway, to the point of the matter. I am very curious and I have asked in a variety of ways before without totally connecting with the answer that I seek, are there others out there that are contemplating going 100% full time dressing as a female or who are living that way now who are NOT planning on SRS or taking hormones or having any major surgical procedures. I am trying to see if there is a community of others out there like me who are happy with their male form and fully express as a female.

I am trying to see, based on my failed attempts at relationships where I have tried to gravitate towards my femme self, if I am travelling a road with others who can help provide me with some insights into the challenges that they face(d). I do not know if what I seek is an impossibility in a world that seems to define gender in such a binary way. I am pretty confident that I will continue down this road as it seems that I am compelled to do so, I am just curious to learn from others and in the end I may find that surgery and hormones may be the only path that leads me to a place where I can feel normal and happy.

Huggs
Melissa

Very interesting. I've been actually thinking that all people who are CD'ers are some of degree transsexual. I know for most people, labels are what we like to define, it helps the human mind understand and organize things neatly.

Honestly though, labels are just labels, if you list out all the different spectrum in TG, you can probably compile about over 700,000 different labels. Everyone is different, and although some people may have similar things, it's really customize for each person.

So call it what it may be, you are you, you want to be en-femme 100% but no SRS or hormones, that's you then. Don't try to label it, because there could be another person with almost 99% things like you but instead they want to be a male at work.

I'm guilty for using the label thing too, I guess it gives us a feeling of belonging and security, but really it's all false. I just know myself at this moment in time, I love and enjoy being Kate. I don't feel a need to go further by doing surguries of any kind of hormones. I wouldn't go to work or to most friends as Kate but would like to be Kate around my S/O and do certain things as Kate. I still am fine with being boy-mode and do certain things as well. However, this could change, it's a life journey right? But how can you label this, you can call me CD but I might be more, or call me TS but I don't want to SRS. So it's hard? Just forget labels and say this is how I am...

Hi Melissa,
The gender spectrum is very wide, there is always a place in it for you. Kate is right, the mind wants to lable and put things in nice little slots. That doesn't have to be the case, if you are happy so be it. You are, who you say you are. On this road we travel, there may not be anyone else in the same lane, they may all be behind you, just starting their journey or have moved on. Use the varied experiences of others, evaluate them as to how they affect you and prepare if it should happen to you. Above all, be happy and enjoy yourself.

Hugs,
Alice

PS I never indented to imply you shouldn't ask, you never know you may be helping someone else.

Melissa,

you are not alone. I feel much the same way you described in your post. There is one difference and that is my SO couldn't handle mt femme self either -- she tolerated it for 3 months and then she left me. We had been married for 12 years :( I feel so guilty at times. There were other problems in our relationship but this was the last straw.

I still struggle with the idea of going full time as I am almost there and feel very comfortable as Jacie. . . . so this is to say I understand totally.

My wife and I have had many discussions recently about Mel coming out of retirement to work as Melanie. Some of this discussion was prompted by our week spent re-organizing our closets that contain hundreds of feminine outfits. Melanie has few boundaries over when and how she dresses and where she goes. The exception to that is some visits with family and some church activities. With all the beautiful, professional looking dresses, skirts, pant suits, etc. that Melanie can wear, there are not enough opportunities to wear what is in the closets.

Melanie on one Halloween day spent the entire day dressed as the professional executive and loved every minute. In fact my secretary told me that I should be in the female role every day since I made a better boss enfemme. She did not know about my feminine persona away from the office. I have always wanted Melanie to be the executive woman. My only problem with being Melanie 24/7 and returning to a position in the workplace enfemme is I do not miss the commutes, early hours and the hassle of being in an excutive position although other than one day I have never faced those challenges and opportunities enfemme. I may talk to some of my GLBT friends who may consider hiring Melanie and get their ideas.

I appreciate any of your ideas and suggestions.

Just enjoy who and what you are and what you are comfortable living with

JoAnne Wheeler

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Originally Posted by KateC

Very interesting. I've been actually thinking that all people who are CD'ers are some of degree transsexual. I know for most people, labels are what we like to define, it helps the human mind understand and organize things neatly.

Honestly though, labels are just labels, if you list out all the different spectrum in TG, you can probably compile about over 700,000 different labels. Everyone is different, and although some people may have similar things, it's really customize for each person.

So call it what it may be, you are you, you want to be en-femme 100% but no SRS or hormones, that's you then. Don't try to label it, because there could be another person with almost 99% things like you but instead they want to be a male at work.

I'm guilty for using the label thing too, I guess it gives us a feeling of belonging and security, but really it's all false. I just know myself at this moment in time, I love and enjoy being Kate. I don't feel a need to go further by doing surguries of any kind of hormones. I wouldn't go to work or to most friends as Kate but would like to be Kate around my S/O and do certain things as Kate. I still am fine with being boy-mode and do certain things as well. However, this could change, it's a life journey right? But how can you label this, you can call me CD but I might be more, or call me TS but I don't want to SRS. So it's hard? Just forget labels and say this is how I am...

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I think there is a lot to this concept.

If you look at just the members on this board, how many of us discuss wanting to be femme all the time, but don't consider ourselves transsexual?

I think a better definition may be "borderline transsexual, but not willing to go through the hassle/drama/potential nightmare of switching".

I mean, if I could be a girl 100% of the time, without all the baggage associated with transitioning, would I? Yeah, probably. But I don't want to deal with the ramifications of becoming female, and I don't feel the all-encompassing desire. I personally think that puts me in a gray area somewhere between CD and TS.

On the same coin, if someone likes to wear nylons while having sex, but doesn't have any desire to express himself as a woman, is he still a crossdresser or just a fetishist?

Labels suck. I think as humans we have a need to explain who/what we are to others, but I'm willing to bet that most of us that go out on a regular basis, presenting and attempting to pass as women, do have at least some sort of TS leaning.

Melissa - you are not alone (another vote for it that is). You post is beautifully written by the way ! Thank you for the heartfelt and intriguing thread.

I agree with your ideas and I, am in the same boat. My view is that there is a continuum of what is TG and all of us are somewhere along it. Some folks stay put, some move around on it. To often I find myself saying " .... if someone told me last year that I would {fill in blank} I would have told then you are crazy...." Where or when will I come to a stopping point ? Wish I had a crystal ball for that one ! The most important thing is being honest with yourself and your loved ones about where you are, and where you *think* you are headed. There is a label that fits by the way; no-op TS.

I would have to put myself in that category, too. I'm still working on getting more comfortable with me, and it's getting easier (though not easy). I'm still hoping soon to start putting in applications for work at places as Salenna. So that will be a big step for me.

I want to thank all of those who have taken the time to add their thoughts so far. I appreciate any insights that will help me to work through this latest stage in a very challenging journey.

The symbol at the top of the page of CD.com is no accident Melissa. It is actually the symbolic representation of the yin/yang energies in a perfectly balanced embryo mode. The actual goal of balance is to be able to use these energies freely. Our comfort level is dictated by how much of these energies we allow ourselves to process. Initially the energies are felt as endorphins. The farther we go, however, the more they become kundalini energy and we realize that less is really more. Strange, I'll agree but true nonetheless. If we go far enough we realize, it really does not matter how we choose to present as it's all "us", our essense. I saw that when you were here last year my friend. You just have to decide now how you want to proceed and what will make you happy.:hugs:

Melissa,

From my own experience, I would say there are more m2f T's that live full time who are not transseuxal (i.e. perfectly happy with their naughty bits) than those who are. So you certainly are not alone.

I'd also suggest that you missed a majority of T's with the groups you suggested.

Marla

To paraphrase, Some of my body is female, but not the ones determining sex, and some of my brain is female. I am best described as transgender. After starting out as a crossdresser, I now find it more difficult to dress as a man. Yet since I am not TS bound, I cannot justify a transition at work. Instead, I go to work every day appearing as a man with breasts and wearing androgenous clothing, mostly feminine with male shirts. I have been letting my hair grow out for 5 months, but it still has a long way to go. But a couple of days ago, a company locksmith identified me with a feminine pronoun, and the exedcutive assistant kept trying to correct him saying multiple times "He, not She!"

So, you are not alone.

Deanna

Posting from my phone, excuse brevity.

So I totally see where you're coming from here. I feel though that in some ways, I am in the exact opposite situation. I am still very male in my interests, but less happy with my body. I am comfortable with the concept of expressing fulltime once I am ready, but I want more than clothes. I want to look in the mirror and see the woman, not just feel her.

That said, I fix cars, computers, play xbox... things that women do sometimes, but generally relegated to the domain of men. But I still stare at and talk about women, go drinking with the guys, etc, and have no desire to change what of that which I won't be otherwise obligated to change.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I know what you mean about being stuck between.

You are definitely not alone.

I am not alone- I keep telling myself and this forum reinforces it to me. I am one that would say I am simular to what you described. I am way behind in my journey. I do not plan to have SRS, however, I am curious as to what it would be like to be rid of my apperture. I rarely dress fully in actuallity. But in my mind I am dressed. I would love for a chance to go full out living.

Girl I am so the same way, but for me my "maleness" is my bond to my wife and my daughter to be. my counsiler and other here have thrown out the term non-op TS, or Transgenderist. Someone here and I am sorry I don't remember who brought it up. But I asked this question a while back and out of all the answers and comments one keeps coming back to me. someone said Look at all my profiles and myspace page. if I made the gender female on any of them, then i know my true self and I would be TS, if I called myself male the transgendered or crossdresser is what I am. But like everyone else has already told you.. Labels are dumb you are you, thats it. and 5 years from now when we are standing in the mirror with breasts and a penis. oh well it is what we have chosen. ok so maybe that was too much lol. I think it is time this girl goes to bed..

Hugs,
Ashlie

Melissa,

Except for a few minor details, your original post could have been all about me. For the last three years, I have been living almost full time except when I have to present as male for family functions, or for some occassional reasons relating to business. When I first moved to San Francisco, I had no idea what I was going to do. I brought male clothes and female clothes. But from that first day, there has never been a morning when I considered putting on the boy stuff. Yet, I have no desire for surgery. And I am conflicted about hormones because I like being "functional." I can still do the "boy" thing, but it always leaves me very emotionally agitated. And I have no idea how I pass considering my waxed brows, long hair, and long manicured nails.

I had dinner tonight with a transgender friend, and we were discussing this very concept. I think the term "non-op" could apply to us.

Too bad we are on opposite coasts. I think we would enjoy getting together for further discussion.

Wendi

PS - Years ago I had a business trip to Kitchener (as a boy). Very lovely place.

Although you now have the chance to freely express yourself more, you still find that there are those occassions where you have to revert back kids,mom,etc. You are out to a certian extent, but not completely. Sounds like you are able to accept the fact and still be comfortable with that side, because you have made that choice. Kind of things are the way that they are, and I can live with that. You seem to have a real desire to be female, and you say that you are most comfortable in that role.
maybe those "big obsatcles" are keeping you from realizing that dream. Sort of a rationalization... There are a lot of non-op transexual people out there living thier life,as somone mentioned,possibly more than the actual number of Ts people that have had SRS. Suppose you no longer had this baggage, might you have a totally different take on transitioning? Just some food for thought.

Welcome to the club Melissa. Been there, done that, still there. More than CD but not TS and TG is too broad of a descriptor. I identified with most of your post. I dress femme every day. I do not claim to be in the wrong body, the one I have is fine.

The challenge is one of gender identity. Common language usage fares badly in separating gender from sex, let alone understanding mixed gender or blended gender. That is just way out there in terms of common understanding. Transgender is as close as we get in terms of label, but that is still rationalized in binary terms in common usage and indeed in clinical usage. I really wish there was a descriptive term for a mixed or blended gender as a stable state, I'm tired of trying to explain it. Even the Wiki transgender page uses a descriptive phrase "people who live cross-gender" in the absence of a label.

So yes, we are both in the same boat, and we are not alone. Now, If you take one oar, and I take another oar, and we both row with more or less an ever stroke we can make progress up the river, unless of coarse we are both rowing on the same side of the boat, in which case we are going to go round in circles.:heehee:

:hugs:

I moved to NYC in 2001 to live full time for the first time. It was a wonderful experience but I quickly figured out 2 things.

1. NYC us fun but I can't stand living there full time. I used to hate it taking two hours just to get outside of the city to escape to the mountains

2. I'm not Transexual. I'm not going to have SRS. I don't want to live as only one gender. I'm going to switch back and forth and live full time in both when I want to.

Now this is just me, but I like being a very butch boi sometimes. I moved back to the mountains that winter as a boi. Since then a lot has happened. I've moved through 4 countries and many more cities and in some of those cases I was too busy to think, but I've hauled two wardrobes all over the world and my wife is constantly pestering (term used loosely) me for more time with her wife.

I will continue to switch back and forth. I will probably have some surgery to include some FFS, possibly breast implants, but as of right now, I'm not going to commit to either gender I'm just lucky that I have the freedom to do this and a partner who loves all of it.

So that being said, Choose your title if you must. I've settled on Bi-Gendered or Transgendered. Bi, because I switch and I like both. Transgender is a blanket term that covers a wide spectrum. But if you can live life the way you want to live it.

If you're not having fun, you are either doing it wrong, or doing the wrong thing!

Wow,

I have to say that the responses to his thread are amazing. I always felt so alone in this way that I am, want to be. I have had so many within the community tell me that eventually I would have SRS, that it was inevitable. I always felt that having SRS would be as wrong as not cross dressing at all. It never seemed to me like there was some sort of biological error to correct, it was just that for the most part I identified more with things that were feminine. I was getting the feeling that perhaps it was a pipe dream to think that you could be comfortable as a male physiologically and yet always present as a female. Somehow I felt that all of these people who were talking to me could see or knew something that I had not yet discovered and that perhaps I was missing something in my thought process.

I am so glad that I asked this question here, because I am beginning to see that I am not alone in how I feel. That is very comforting nd helps me a great deal in validating my feelings, in the same way that finding out that other men cross dressed validated other feelings for me at an earlier point in my life.

Thank you all so much for your responses.

Huggs
Melissa

I'm a CD. I wear panties every day, stay shaved from the chin down (with one notable exception:o). wear bras a couple time a week, women's jeans and/or tops nearly everyday. But RARELY do I wear a dress or make up and try to pass. I do have more ladies shoes than men's. But most of them are androgynous in style and wore out without being noticed. I just like wearing what I like wearing. I guess that I'm confusing, even to me. I will admit to being envious of many of you girls though. I wish that I was half as pretty and brave. For now though I think that I'll remain the stealth crossdresser.

Melissa, I have watched your journey since I joined the forum nearly 3 years ago now, and have seen the struggles & the heartache your choices have caused you, now you seem to be trying to define where you are at now ........... I would describe where you are and what you plans are as being TS (yesTS), but non hormonal, non op TS ...... and yes there are several girls out there who are non op, non hormonal TS's.

luck is wished you on this next stage of your journey hun :hugs:

I'll admit to having smilar feelings as you do Melissa, though i haven't got anywhere near as far along as you have in finding myself.

I can't say i'm over the moon with my male life at the moment and being a girl looks an awefull lot more appealing though at the same time i doubt i could ever have surgery or even hormones to alter my body. My body doesn't disgust me, its more of the lifestyle that i don't like (or more accuratly just living the lifestyle as apposed to enjoying it).

Thank you for asking this question Melissa. As others have posted, except for a few details you could be talking about me. I've finally reached the point where I need more answers than I can provide for myself and have an appointment with a gender therapist soon. Take heart, you are not alone.

-Paula-

Interesting thoughts Melissa. I have often said about myself that I'd rather be a woman but don't have to be. Transitioning is not an easy path to take. I am managing well the way things are now. I wish I didn't have to hide my femme side on occasion, but I can deal with it. For the foreseeable future, nothing will changes here.

Gen

I'm beginning to understand. You are not transsexual; you do not identify as a woman born inside the wrong body and you do not look at your male sexual organs as an aberration. You are happy with your male body and are at peace with your male hormones yet you embrace a feminine gender identification as well. Both. A simultaneous combination.

Maybe we should come up with an entirely new TG classification for transpeople who feel the way you do but who do not identify with any of the TS classifications:

AG = ambigendered.
Ambi-, amb-, ambo- + = Latin: both, on both sides. http://wordinfo.info/

As opposed to being bigendered: "a tendency to move between feminine and masculine genders respectively". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

Understood for needing some kind of definition as a baseline Reine but sometimes definitions(and parameters) do not apply to individuals so much. For instance, I told Melissa that is who I thought of her as, Melissa, with no label or definition necessary. The same with you, Reine. Both of you are my friends, both unique individuals who I care about. I dunno maybe I'm somewhat weird to think like that but that's the way it is.:)

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman

or

- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait


I'm a TS who is less femme than a lot of CDs. The fact that many people go from thinking they're CD to thinking they're TS shows that it's a spectrum, not binary.

Very true, I used to think like this before I thought more about it. It can't be binary, too narrow for that.

If I were to categorize myself at this point in stage and give me a label...

bi-transgendered-ambisexual-crossdressing-male-woman girl

I feel that I want to be a female but don't NEED to be one 24/7 nor to have hormones/SRS, still enjoy being a guy for the positives but prefer to be female at other times. Enjoy socially both male and female for different parts though want to be in female mode more. In guy mode I'm attractive to woman alot, and in girl mode, attracted to men and women. Still enjoy to have sex as a male but also wouldn't mind as a female if given a chance.

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Originally Posted by Raquel June

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman

or

- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait


I'm a TS who is less femme than a lot of CDs. The fact that many people go from thinking they're CD to thinking they're TS shows that it's a spectrum, not binary.

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Originally Posted by Arianna Daniels

Understood for needing some kind of definition as a baseline Reine but sometimes definitions(and parameters) do not apply to individuals so much. For instance, I told Melissa that is who I thought of her as, Melissa, with no label or definition necessary. The same with you, Reine. Both of you are my friends, both unique individuals who I care about. I dunno maybe I'm somewhat weird to think like that but that's the way it is.:)

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Point well taken, Arianna! :hugs: For those who cannot or do not wish to label themselves with a simple definition, please ignore my previous post.

But for me and for others like me, a concept defined with words is the only way I can even come close to describing, thus developing my understanding of being trans.

I really appreciate all of the responses. It has given me great insight. This has helped me sort out some of the ambiguities in my mind that have been holding me back and I realize that I am not a label, I am just me, in whatever shape that happens to take. Sometimes, in struggling with what others want of you and trying to fit in to social constructs it is easy to lose sight of the fact that we have to be ourselves no matter what. By eliminating that uncertainty it becomes much easier to chart a course and make decisions.

Please keep the wonderful insights coming. Thank you all so much.

I know I am late to posting on the subject, but here goes, I am one of those individuals who is happy with my male anatomy, however I identify as female, I do not want SRS or HRT. I want to live full time as female and I am heading in that direction in my life. I agree with ReineD about being happy about being male, but identifying or living full time as female, I consider myself as transgendered since other labels do not seem to fit me, there is a word that is out there that some of us use, and that is transgenerist for those who are male but identify and live as female.

Hi Melissa,

Your post "rings bells" for me too. I think I'm different to most of my CDing friends as I am pretty serious about my feminine expression and don't like to display any kind of masculine attitude or behaviour if I can help it. A feminine nature seems to come natural to me.

I also know I am different from my TS friends as I know I am not born in the wrong body. I am ok with the physiology of my male body providing it is somewhat femininzed (no body hair at all, facial hair removed by laser, manicured and painted hands and toenails, thin, shaped eyebrows etc).

I like and want to dress as often as I reasonably can .... but, for me, I don't want to go full time because that means coming out at work and I'm not ready for the consequences. I also feel that if I ever do wear guy clothes (like when I visit my parents or at work) they are always more of a unisex girl's type ones that aren't too obvious. I like my world to always be feminine to a greater or lesser extent. I think I'm more "down the road" than your average CDer but not as "full on" as a TS might be.

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Originally Posted by Rachel Morley

I also know I am different from my TS friends as I know I am not born in the wrong body. I am ok with the physiology of my male body providing it is somewhat femininzed (no body hair at all, facial hair removed by laser, manicured and painted hands and toenails, thin, shaped eyebrows etc).

I like and want to dress as often as I reasonably can .... but, for me, I don't want to go full time because that means coming out at work and I'm not ready for the consequences.

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But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

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Originally Posted by Raquel June

But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

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Well, not to be nit-picky but I didn't day I wanted to feminize my body or dress "as much as possible". I said I wanted to feminize by body "somewhat" and dress "as often as I reasonably can" ... but to answer your question. Yes, for me I don't think of it as a fetish at all and it is a serious part of my life and presentation. Can I honestly say I wouldn't transitioning if it wasn't for things things like work holding me back?

I think (in this scenario) if I use the term "transition" as meaning to live full time and not as being on hormones and having SRS, then yes you do actually have a point.:thinking: If I didn't have to work and/or if my work was not in the area it is (say I was a freelance something or other and working from home) then I might consider living full time. I am ok with my body and I wouldn't want to have surgery as there are certain parts of it that both me and my wife like "using". Also, I know I would probably lose my wife I did have real breasts and no male parts as she is not attracted to women in a sexual way. You don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons? .... wow, that's quite a lot of folks on this board isn't it? .... or so I'm lead to believe.

I don't know ... I guess that didn't come out right. I just think there are crossdressers who do it for sexual gratification and then maybe everybody else is just transgendered in their own way and maybe more similar than they want to admit. I'm pretty sure that if I had gotten married I would be trying to tell myself I was the same as most married CDs.

I guess Iam in the hard core group, But i don't hate my "boy parts", haven't any use for them as I identify as a hetrosexual femaleand I know I won't miss them, but i don't hate them. As for my masculine traits... Not too many that I can think of.. hence my being who and what I am.
I believe I was more confused than angry,suicidally confused (if that's even a word)

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

I believe I was more confused than angry,suicidally confused (if that's even a word)

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It's a word ... and in dictionaries published after 1995 it has my picture next to it.

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

KateC -

Well, sure. You're essentially saying, "If there were no gender roles, would there be people who didn't want to adhere to the role of their birth gender?" Of course not. Crossdressing wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by KateC

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

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That would be an awful boring world....who would the boys show off for and who would us girls dress up for?:heehee: If that was the case though, I am pretty sure that the way the human race is that we would at least find something else to occupy ourselves with.:2c:

Suzanne

Well I guess you could call me a emale or omen, lol. Seriously under gender though they should just have a check box that says other. And for anything medical just ask on the paperwork do you have a penis/vagina, seriously!

Never been one to act hardcore male or female.

This is how I would change my body if it was really possible to live this way:

Awesome long hair
No body hair / facial hair
my own breasts (and not hiding them either way)

Not change my voice, I have a rather deep voice, so talking normally there is no way anyone would ever mistake me for a female even if the rest of me was more female then Paris Hilton, lol.

So looking outwordly as women, but when you hear me you know I clearly not one down below.

It was pretty funny startling people on Halloween, even friends were surprised. One women said a few times that she wondered who the hot female was, but then realizing and remembering oh ya that's my friend J.

So ya I want to be everything I am now, except for removal of body/facial hair and to have breast and I'm working on growing the long hair. And then I would just wear whatever I wanted that day. One can dream... :love:

This is a really important topic. There is a lot more to it than labeling or pigeonholing. The lack of a recognized "in between" gender state causes strife and anguish both for individuals who feel lost there, and for those close to us who can only contemplate the extreme of the binary.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

... Both. A simultaneous combination.

Maybe we should come up with an entirely new TG classification for transpeople who feel the way you do but who do not identify with any of the TS classifications:

AG = ambigendered.
Ambi-, amb-, ambo- + = Latin: both, on both sides. http://wordinfo.info/

As opposed to being bigendered: "a tendency to move between feminine and masculine genders respectively". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

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Well conceived Reina! I like it :clap:

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Originally Posted by Raquel June

If you throw out those for whom it is purely a sexual fetish, M2Fs try too hard to fit into one of two categories:

- "just a CD" who doesn't actually want to be a woman
or
- a hardcore TS who is very angry at her boy parts and resents every masculine trait

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IMHO there is too much pressure both within the community and externally to be one or the other.

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Originally Posted by KateC

Very true, I used to think like this before I thought more about it. It can't be binary, too narrow for that.

If I were to categorize myself at this point in stage and give me a label...

bi-transgendered-ambisexual-crossdressing-male-woman girl

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You demonstrate well the challenge of having a discussion about IT, when we have to go to such lengths to say what IT is.

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Originally Posted by Raquel June

But you're looking to feminize your body as much as possible and dress as much as possible, and it's not some kind of kinky thrill for you -- you actually prefer to be feminine.

I can't help but think you and Karren just don't want to transition because of work/family issues. Can you honesty say you wouldn't be transitioning if it weren't for things like work holding you back?

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Speaking for myself, YES. I can honestly say that I don't want to transition. Family issues are not in the way. I like my sexuality as it is, male. Gender is more complex than that. A Woman in a Mans body is well justified in wanting the exterior to match the interior. A feminine male is just as justified in keeping his original equipment.

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I'm not trying to sound accusatory. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't quite understand CDs who aren't doing it for fetish reasons.

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The concept of being ambigendered IS very difficult to understand, unless of course you are, in which case it makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Raquel June

I don't know ... I guess that didn't come out right. I just think there are crossdressers who do it for sexual gratification and then maybe everybody else is just transgendered in their own way and maybe more similar than they want to admit. I'm pretty sure that if I had gotten married I would be trying to tell myself I was the same as most married CDs.

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"Transgenderd" is too broad a term to satisfy a refined sense of identity. There are so many flavors, even overlapping. Without refinement the term itself does little to help understand what it really means to any individual situation. Of course many will not need such refinement, just being their selves is sufficient. This thread is not very relevant to them, and feel free to click "Next". But many within and external to the community need a clearer understanding of their situation. It is tough to spend thousands of dollars on therapy, or many all-nighters in discussion with ones SO and still not have the language with which to communicate.

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Originally Posted by KateC

But here is a question though, for those who aren't fully TS (yeah labels...)

What if both men and women wore similar clothing and there's nothing "special" for women, like makeup or jewellery, skirts, dresses etc.

I wonder if the bulk of the CD or even some TS are doing this because of culture moreso, than actual female conversion. You know what I mean?

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There are many components to Gender. Gender Identity, Gender Expression and Gender Role to name a few. The "Gender Variance Model" is a good start in helping to understand this. For many, particularly those that are "deeper in the spectrum", it is not just about the clothes and jewelry (expression). There IS an innate sense of (feminine) Gender Identity that goes beyond skirts and nail polish.

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Originally Posted by AshleyCD

Well I guess you could call me a emale or omen, lol. Seriously under gender though they should just have a check box that says other. And for anything medical just ask on the paperwork do you have a penis/vagina, seriously!

Never been one to act hardcore male or female.

This is how I would change my body if it was really possible to live this way:

Awesome long hair
No body hair / facial hair
my own breasts (and not hiding them either way)

Not change my voice, I have a rather deep voice, so talking normally there is no way anyone would ever mistake me for a female even if the rest of me was more female then Paris Hilton, lol.

So looking outwordly as women, but when you hear me you know I clearly not one down below.

It was pretty funny startling people on Halloween, even friends were surprised. One women said a few times that she wondered who the hot female was, but then realizing and remembering oh ya that's my friend J.

So ya I want to be everything I am now, except for removal of body/facial hair and to have breast and I'm working on growing the long hair. And then I would just wear whatever I wanted that day. One can dream... :love:

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Ashley provides another great example. I often wonder how many people push themselves or are pushed to full transition because of the difficulty in understanding the feminine male concept. Certainly the Psychiatric profession is guilty of pushing the issue. Kate Bornstein's book Gender Outlaw: On Men Women and the Rest of Us is good reading on this subject.

Sorry for the long post. I don't usually do these multiqoute responses, I don't like them much. But this issue is important in validating my own existance as "I am not a freak". It is important in providing a framework to help understand the scope of transgender as legistlation is considered and rejected by 'peeping tom in the ladies room" syndrome. It is important in giving transgendered people who are conflicted with their ambiguity a space to pause. Society at large is very far frum understanding these concepts. Transgender language has come from within the grass roots transgender community. Agenda driven Psychiatrists will try to push thier "understanding" as fact. It is on us to push reality.

Stepping down from my soap box now.

Now you're all getting silly. Having both male and female traits already has a term -- it's androgynous. Being both is androgynous, and switching back and forth is bigendered. Most of us are both of these to some degree unless we present as 100% female 100% of the time (or 100% male 100% of the time).

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Originally Posted by Carin

Speaking for myself, YES. I can honestly say that I don't want to transition. Family issues are not in the way.

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The concept of being ambigendered IS very difficult to understand, unless of course you are, in which case it makes perfect sense.

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I used to feel that way. I described myself as bigendered for awhile. Oddly enough, I act more male around older friends and in less accepting environments and more female around newer friends and more accepting environments. Saying I was bigendered described my behavior, but it was stretching the truth to say that was really where I wanted my life to be.

Although again, if I was married I think I would still be in a place similar to that trying to make life more compatible with my wife. We all want everything to fit, and we try to adapt.

Re: Melissacd 04-07-09

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It is a tough road we travel.

Anyway, to the point of the matter. I am very curious and I have asked in a variety of ways before without totally connecting with the answer that I seek, are there others out there that are contemplating going 100% full time dressing as a female or who are living that way now who are NOT planning on SRS or taking hormones or having any major surgical procedures. I am trying to see if there is a community of others out there like me who are happy with their male form and fully express as a female.

I am trying to see, based on my failed attempts at relationships where I have tried to gravitate towards my femme self, if I am travelling a road with others who can help provide me with some insights into the challenges that they face(d). I do not know if what I seek is an impossibility in a world that seems to define gender in such a binary way. I am pretty confident that I will continue down this road as it seems that I am compelled to do so, I am just curious to learn from others and in the end I may find that surgery and hormones may be the only path that leads me to a place where I can feel normal and happy.

Huggs
Melissa

Yes, Melissa, there are others like you - and I am one of them! Other than the problems with an ex, I connect and agree completely with you. I am now a woman full time, despite lack of HRT or surgery...and I can't imagine going back! I am so glad I finally found myself! You will be, too!

Hi Melissa,

I've been there, sister. And yes, it is a tough confusing road at times. Especially, I think, for many of us born before a certain time, before accepting yourself, and coming out as something other than your born gender was alot less aceptable than it is now becoming. To both yourself internally, and out in the world. We carry with us a lifetime of prejudices, assumptions, trained behaviors and responses that are so difficult to overcome. I'm labeled as a "late onset" TS, but that term doesnt really do it for me. After all, I DID cry myself to sleep when I was 4, many times, because I wasn't a girl. The only thing that was "late" was coming to terms with me, and losing my fear of really looking at myself. I can blame my culture for that to some extent, which resulted in me chasing the "normal" life that was always just out of my reach, for one reason or another.

But the thing is, once we start down the road of self-acceptance, it doesnt always get easier. We're still a part of what we used to be, and a part of a larger culture....It takes time. Yeah, the spectrum is huge...and the gender binary our culture dumps on us isnt for everyone. And that's ok. I'm glad you see the difference between sex and gender. that is pretty important. But it doesnt mean you know the answer yet, when it comes to your sex. This takes some heavy lifting and thinking, and alot of fear to overcome. I was petrified when I first realised I may be TS. But for me, being a woman wasnt all about gender, I began to realise. It was about me, and who I really was inside. Not about the clothes I wore or who I find attractive. But boy, it took me a while to figure out what to me, is now obvious. I'm not saying it will be that way for you. There's room for all exppressions of gender and sexuality and your's may be more fluid, as you presently believe it to be. If you aren't seeing gender therapist, it probably is the best thing you can do for yourself. Then be prepared to work hard. This was a struggle for me. Maybe some will say, "but you went exactly where expected- you're transitioning". Maybe so. That's me. I discovered things I always suspected, but had buried for so long, I forgot they were there. It's just as possible you may be happy somewhere else in the spectrum. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter where you end up. As long as you keep making your way there. Best of luck, sis. I've known you for a while and I've seen what you're capable of. I'm thinking about you, and rooting for you.

hugs,

Melissa:)

I wish I could dress much more than I do as I just feel more comfortable and right. I don't want to change genders, womens clothes just feel right.