How far would you go to stay in the closet?

I'm wondering how far people would be willing at the moment to go to protect their being in the closet. And how far they think it would be acceptable to go and at what point something becomes unacceptable.

For example not being out, just not telling everyone, not telling anyone out of the family, not telling anyone at all, lying when asked, avoiding the subject and not defending other CDs/TSs etc in public, publicly condemning CDs etc and beyond...

There's many points people might go to and not go to.

And peoples judgement on those could vary substantially depending on circumstances and local laws and consequences actual or imagined as well as degree of self acceptance.

I think it's safe to say that all of us would say they wouldn't murder someone to protect their secret (I sure hope that's true!) so then where is your line, and where do you think the line should be?

I told my old boss and some former co-workers but I would never share with my current boss or co-workers. So, I guess the line for me would be lying or covering up my activities if something were to come up in the workplace.

I work for a large financial institution that has very codified and structured workplace harrassment policies but I've stood by while people, not present, were denigrated for sexual orientation. It was wrong of me and I regret it.

I would never leave the closet, their is no toeing the line for me and I take very small chances. To stand up for another CDer ? Yes of couse I would but it also depends if the person needs help or not, some good size CDers out there. Would I talk trash about Cdin? No, to each their own.

There are varying degrees to this for me.

Currently, I'm only out to my wife (and therapist, but that's not really being "out").

Family
I already feel like an alien around my extended family. I was always the black sheep. I haven't come out to them, but if they found out, I really don't care. I see so little of them anyway, it just doesn't matter. So long as they don't try to "fix" me, I don't mind them finding out about who I really am.

Work
It is very important I remain secretive about this at work. Although there are some open-minded people there, the main guy in charge would certainly not be open-minded about this and I might find myself unemployed because of ____ (whatever else they wanted to put on paper about me). I'm not ready for a different career just yet, and so I am fairly careful not to out myself at work. It is difficult at times, because making fun of crossdressers is something a few of my co-workers do from time to time and I get listen to it... Yeah - one of these days, I might just out myself with a vengeance, if you know what I mean. It sure as HELL is not a laughing matter to me!

Neighbors
I've got to be very careful around my neighbors. I don't live in a cd-friendly area and could easily find myself the target of vandalism and/or other kinds of costly, harmful acts. Because there are a lot of kids that live on my street, I often wonder if their parents might rebel against me if they knew. After all, society needs to protect their kids from "creepy perverts" like us, right? God forbid kids find out we exist and learn the actual TRUTH about who we really are, right? Sitting in my own back yard en femme is not an option right now. Even though the difference in appearance between Gabe and Gabrielle is night and day, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out over a short period of time. Our back yard is only semi-private and seeing other neighbors in their back yards is a frequent occurrence.

For survival purposes, I must be careful and protect my true self. If I lived in a more open-minded area and did not fear of loosing my job if they knew, I might not care who knew or even try to hid it. I'm really not ashamed of who I am - only afraid of those who hate people like me. So it's a highly restrictive existence I currently live. Not quite where I want to be, but I hope to change that in time.

I have said that I may not always volunteer the truth, but if someone asks me a question, I will either tell the truth or dodge the question - most likely by answeing with a question. Crossdressing questions would probably be dodged, eg: "What makes you ask that/think that?"

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Originally Posted by Alberta_Girl77

I work for a large financial institution that has very codified and structured workplace harrassment policies but I've stood by while people, not present, were denigrated for sexual orientation. It was wrong of me and I regret it.

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The organization I work for also has some very codified standards with regards to harrassment and even gender identity expression is protected.

To which I say, "So?"

It's all well and good to have it in policy, but the reality is you can be fired for any reason and they sure as heck don't have to tell you the _real_ reason why. I'm not about to show up in a skirt and heels, endangering my job and the welfare of my family in the process.

The only way I'd do this is if in the application process for the job I made it clear that I am transgendered, and my dressing choices for work include professional women's attire. If they hired me despite (or because of?) this knowledge, then I'd feel comfortable (well, at least more comfortable) going to work en femme.

I'd say the "line" fluctuates with each person and their individual circumstances.

good question.
I guess if asked I would admit. I have admitted it to some and they didn't believe me. I didn't push the issue. I do joka around about it but out right admitting I don't know. I like to say I amin the closet but the door is open.

I have reached the age (64) where I just don't care anymore - I am who and

what I am - I have finally been able to accept myself (well actually JoAnne)

and I am happy beyound belief with it.

JoAnne Wheeler

I do not really feel anyone needs to know this about me but someday someone will find out and than I will deal with it.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

I'm wondering how far people would be willing at the moment to go to protect their being in the closet. And how far they think it would be acceptable to go and at what point something becomes unacceptable.

For example not being out, just not telling everyone, not telling anyone out of the family, not telling anyone at all, lying when asked, avoiding the subject and not defending other CDs/TSs etc in public, publicly condemning CDs etc and beyond...

There's many points people might go to and not go to.

And peoples judgement on those could vary substantially depending on circumstances and local laws and consequences actual or imagined as well as degree of self acceptance.

I think it's safe to say that all of us would say they wouldn't murder someone to protect their secret (I sure hope that's true!) so then where is your line, and where do you think the line should be?

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I was going to say Cleveland, then I noticed you were in Australia. In that case, I'll say Coober Pedy...

I don't know. I really don't. Not for sure. I'll say this though - I have envisaged myself in any number of situations where I have to either support TG values, or out myself or stand up for an identified individual. In each of these situations I have envisaged I have been able to explain myself and my view or who I am without any difficulty.

This is the method by which I have told my whole family who I am. By envisaging the situation first. This is the method by which I have gone out as me, held my head high and been able to function as a woman in society.

So I think this is the method by which I will support my values as they relate to the TG issues at hand. That and doing what feels right when it feels right. Which is why I say I don't know yet how far I would go - because I'll only know when it happens.

:)

I do wonder if that makes any sense to any one?

Sarah...

If asked, I would tell the truth and if they didn't believe me I would not be afraid to show them.
Defending others, just comes naturally for me.
How far would I go to protect my closet? NOT VERY, I'VE BEEN WANTING TO GET OUT OF IT FOR YEARS.(i'm getting there)anyone gotta match???

I don't think I'll ever offer up the info that I cd, but if asked, I would either laugh it off or just admit it depending on who was asking. As for protecting other cd's or sticking up for them, if they were in danger I'd like to think I would do something, at the very least call the cops....

I don't take offense to people joking about cd'ing or anything else for that matter though, I joke about plenty of things that any number of people could take offense to, there's almost always someone or some culture that is at the butt end of a joke, they're just meant to make people laugh. If people are rude though, I always stick up for them (cd or otherwise), just let people be who they are going to be, as long as they are not hurting anyone, then they're ok with me!

I put a high premium on my personal integrity. That means I won't lie about anything, but I won't flaunt things that I want left alone. I have already come out to the important people in my life, and if others find out, they find out. I will never deny who I am for any reason.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

I think it's safe to say that all of us would say they wouldn't murder someone to protect their secret (I sure hope that's true!) so then where is your line, and where do you think the line should be?

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actually that would probably depend on what the chances were of getting away with the murder.

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Originally Posted by Jolene

I do not really feel anyone needs to know this about me but someday someone will find out and than I will deal with it.

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This is about where I am. If my wife asked, I would first answer with a question, and then the unvarished truth, as gently as possible.

I would not anticipate anyone else asking.

Hugs
BekiJ

I might align myself somewhat with Gabrielle on this one on some things:

-Generally speaking, I'm not flamboyantly out of the closet
-I'm quite sure at least one of my neighbors has seen me coming and going dressed, and if he questioned me on it, I'd be clear with him that I'm TG. Might he hate me for it, quite possibly.

-My work doesn't really know, and I'd like to keep it that way for as long as I can in some respects, but I won't deny it if I'm questioned. At this point I'm not on hormones or developing so I can still easily present as a male and continue to do so. If my work said to me 'Hey, listen.. blahblahblah we would rather have you present as a male, etc.' then I suppose my answer to them would be, fine, I obviously DON'T want to loose my job, but you have to realize I am a human being, and I am transitioning at some level. You will start to see changes in your male employee that /may not/ easily be maskable. I will continue to wear a shirt and tie to work every day for as long as possible, and not wear makeup, etc. but if my chest starts to show.... ??? *shrug*

-My friends are all learning about me, one at a time, and it's a take it or leave it situation with them. If they ask, I'll tell. Or if I'm dressed and I see them, surprise!
-My family is unknowing at this point, but not for long. Soon my folks will know because my son has asked that I come out to them. Once they know, well, it could spiral separately from there, or not, who knows.
-The public at large may see glimpses of me dressed from time to time, and I'm getting more and more courage to 'do more' when I'm already out dressed for meetings and special events. Wandering around stores shopping, going out to dinner, whatever.. as I trickle out a little more each time I'm sure sometime it's going to just explode at some point.

-My son, the lynch pin in all of this (as his security and sanity are paramount) has set forth rules that he and I are abiding by at many levels. I won't be seen dressed with him, and I won't spend time dressed in our 'home town'. That having been said, he does know that I'm going out in other cities and towns in the area. Perhaps its going to be a bit of an issue if someone puts 2+2 together and it rolls over to his school (which he's terrified about). He's petrified that people will shun him if I'm outed to that part of his life - but as my son he loves me enough to not try and hold me back too much from what I want for myself. I guess, for his sake, if I were questioned by an outside force in his presence, and it wasn't a friend or family member, I would probably craft some artful white lie to save /his/ face. This is the hardest to call, and all I can hope for is that by the time I'm completely and unabridged out that he'll be ready and OK with that.

I think that about covers it for descriptors on the round. I'd like to say I have the self-confidence to be able to stand up to a barrage of negativity, but I can't say that I straightforwardly have experienced a directed attack of any kind (yet). What are my options though, really? I suppose I have to say that the reason I'm more casual about my exposure is because I AM aligning myself, slowly, with being transgender and proud of it. This isn't something that I want to hide anymore, but rather just expose one page at a time at a speed that is comfortable to me. I'm not looking forward to the negativity, but goodness help me, unless my life depends on it, I really don't like the idea of backing down.

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Originally Posted by JulieC

The organization I work for also has some very codified standards with regards to harrassment and even gender identity expression is protected.

To which I say, "So?"

It's all well and good to have it in policy, but the reality is you can be fired for any reason and they sure as heck don't have to tell you the _real_ reason why. I'm not about to show up in a skirt and heels, endangering my job and the welfare of my family in the process.

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Ditto on the Employer policy, ours includes " Actual or Percieved Gender ".

You are correct, If an employer wants to let you go, they can come up with any reason, especially in these financial times. Im fortunate we are also union, and to let me go, the do have to come up with a legitamate reason.

I have gone to work in a skirt, and my supervisor did ask, very nicely, that I not wear a skirt while working anymore, due to a fellow co-worker complaint.

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Originally Posted by bobi jean

If asked, I would tell the truth and if they didn't believe me I would not be afraid to show them.
Defending others, just comes naturally for me.
How far would I go to protect my closet? NOT VERY, I'VE BEEN WANTING TO GET OUT OF IT FOR YEARS.(i'm getting there)anyone gotta match???

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I would never lie about being CD, actually, it's hard to keep me from bragging about it. But, to not cause troubles for my family, I restrain my CDing around my home, to be honest, I am not sure which neighbors know, I have been outside my home, in skirt and or heels for things like taking out the trash.

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Originally Posted by Mary Morgan

I put a high premium on my personal integrity. That means I won't lie about anything, but I won't flaunt things that I want left alone. I have already come out to the important people in my life, and if others find out, they find out. I will never deny who I am for any reason.

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I love the way you put that " I have already come out to the important people in my life " I agree.

This is a good question. How far WOULD I go? How far have I gone?

Well if I screw up and am discovered, then I have to come clean. Marriage and career over.

So I have to make sure I don't screw up.

Not a good answer I know...

I am no longer secretive about it, but I don't flaunt it. If someone asks me in a confidential way, not to "OUT" me but to satisfy a curiosity, I will answer appropriately. If a person is just being ignorant, my response will address that attitude as best I can. On a whole, I have found that most people in a conservative community such as mine, know, but don't want to have to deal with it. I will go shopping dressed in a nice top, wearing girls jeans that are long enough so as not to show my pantyhose. They can live with that and so, I guess, can I.

Michelle

Can't very well hide the facts.. I would definetly stand up for another person who may be in danger. I recently saw a show where a camera crew set up a scene where someone was being bullied by three guys. Noboby offered any assistance until one 17 year old high school girl stepped up, got in between them and told them to leave the person alone. When asked why she would put herself in danger over a stranger, she replied.. I used to get bullied, and I know how that person felt.

All it would take is a direct question. Am I or am I not? Truth.

Well, Im really not sure how far I would go. It kind of funny that everyone who knows about my crossdressing has come up dead or missing. Hey but accidents do happen! I guess noone has ever asked me if i was a crossdresser. Must be because im so darn masculine. I like to think I would do the right thing to help others..

i guess for me it depends on who the person is...what kind of relationship i have with them

I would say that the closet door is just slightly ajar.. I m th i nki ng m ay be... maybe.... maybe...

The only person I've told is a friend of mine from Denmark and I might as well have told her the day's weather, as much as she seemed to care that I was. She typically finds our (U.S.) democrats too conservative so I guess she's pretty understanding.

But if one of my family or friends asked me directly, I would not lie to them. But I don't think I'd go out and tell them without being asked, not right now anyway. My true fear is being open to people I don't know, like going out in public. Still a long, long way away from that.

Here's an example of what protecting the closet at all costs, what internalised homophobia and transphobia does.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/...e-crime-murder

Some people are willing to murder to protect their closet.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Here's an example of what protecting the closet at all costs, what internalised homophobia and transphobia does.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/...e-crime-murder

Some people are willing to murder to protect their closet.

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so not as straight as we first thought, if we go on that report ............. apparently a "closeted gay" who may (and we have yet to hear all they evidence) ...... have killed a transgendered woman (not a homophopic straight hetrosexual, killing as was first though)........... the tragedy being the life of someone was lost :sad:

And one could be very heartless and cynical and say if this is the case one heck of a way to out oneslf ....... not that I would :eek:

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Originally Posted by Sheila

so not as straight as we first thought, if we go on that report ............. apparently a "closeted gay" who may (and we have yet to hear all they evidence) ...... have killed a transgendered woman (not a homophopic straight hetrosexual, killing as was first though)........... the tragedy being the life of someone was lost :sad:

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I've stated before here that most homophobia comes from repressed homosexuals and that the same is likely true of transphobia. Anyone who'd seen the studies of physiological responses of homophobes to homoerotic images would expect such as this report.

And sure, we haven't yet heard all the evidence but we do know that the defendant has admitted the murder. The defence is just relying on the infamous 'trans-panic' defence. One that often works, trans folk shot in the back from a distance being accepted by juries as having been shot imediatly at close range in a 'panic' for example. Lies are unfortunately easier to believe than science when the lie fits ones biases and the truth goes against them.

We also knew from the start (if we read detailed accounts) that Angie always told people she was Trans. And recent evidence has shown that the killer went with her to a court appearance for a traffic matter where her Male name was read out! So the trans-panic defence is nonsense.

Going by the evidence thus-far It's still a hate-crime. Still caused by Transphobia and Homophobia. Still done by Andrada and Angie is still dead. And Non-white TGs still have a vastly higher risk of being murdered (what was it again, 1 in 12 as oppossed to white straight folks 1 in 18,000? Even though straight white folks vastly outnumber them?)

Perhaps the worst phobes being repressed Gay and TG themselves is news to you... but its only emphasising the dilemma isn't it?

How far is it acceptable to go in order to stay in the closet?
How might we be contributing to or breaking down Transphobia depending on how we behave when still in the closet?

I wouldn't go that far. When it comes down to it, if you get caught it's not such a big deal. Rudy Giuliani is slated to be the next Governor of New York.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/photo...ni_in_drag.jpg

I stay secretive about my Cding. It's really no ones business what I do for my own enjoyment in my own house. I keep my feminine side my own...tho I will underdress often. As for defending other CD's, of course I would. I hate it when someone gets bullied becasue they're different.

My basic principle on this is to do no harm to anyone else. I certainly would not kill anyone; I would not fail to defend other TGs if the need arose; I would deny my own participation.

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Originally Posted by Carly D.

I would say that the closet door is just slightly ajar.. I m th i nki ng m ay be... maybe.... maybe...

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Is it staying in the closet if you have been out to the gas & go recently??? well in my opinion since this was designed as a mostly covert thing (late night, careful planning etc.) that I am still in the closet.. now a possible going to an all night convenience store and going into that store and being seen by whoever (2 or 3 people) I think that would still be closeted.. going out during the day light hours in full view of the neighbors, maybe that's out of the closet a bit.. going to a walmart or some other store during the day might also be out of the closet.. or would being out of the closet mean telling and or showing family members??? I think showing family members or friends would be out of the closet coming from therein.. as it were..