An intellectual discussion on social acceptance (tomboys vs girls like us)

Ok, I was wondering for people's thoughts on this, since it's crossed my mind. We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form.

And, I really wonder why?

Is it because it's somewhat of a man's world, and anything embracing that is looked highly upon?

Is it because feminism has made such headway that basically anything goes since such individuality has become a cornerstone for women in society?

Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

Or, is it something more?

It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

So, anyway let's make sure to keep this intellectual. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, from every corner of this forum.

:)

I think it's a matter of timing. It just so happens that Women's Liberation came first. Before that movement or early on, women were chastised for wearing pants. Now it's Men's Liberation time and it takes time for the culture to shift. It seems like it's happening though. RuPaul is accepted right?

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Originally Posted by JenetGG

I think it's a matter of timing. It just so happens that Women's Liberation came first. Before that movement or early on, women were chastised for wearing pants. Now it's Men's Liberation time and it takes time for the culture to shift. It seems like it's happening though. RuPaul is accepted right?

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Yeah, by many, but then RuPaul is gay. Most folks still cannot wrap their minds around the idea of a straight man wanting to dress as a woman.

In my area, the metrosexual look is popular. So it is becoming more acceptable here to be a feminine male. (pastel shirts, trimmed eyebrows, lazer hair removal, manicures). I live in a big metropolitan city so maybe it will take some time to catch on other locations.

However, being a GG, I think that to society, there is a big difference between a feminine man and a man trying to pass as a female. The later seems to throw some people off guard and make them uncomfortable. Mostly because they don't understand the motivation for it.

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. they are not trying to pass as a man.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

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Just curious, what exactly does a Transman dress like? I know several Transmen, and I am married to a Transman. They dress like any other guy. I want to know what they are supposed to dress like, so I can tell them. Gotta make sure the are wearing proper transman attire.

I'm still trying to get approval from MYSELF, for CDing!:sad:

Why the constant comparison to GG's? We are not or ever will gg's . Isn't dressing like they do enough? Why do some feel that they have to invade their domain right to it's core? If they can't be like gg in every way.. i'ts not fair...

You know, I really get tired of this argument that women who wear masculine stuff have no social stigma whatsoever. As if terms like "bull dyke" didn't exist, and that women with short hair and a penchant for wearing pants and never skirts and dresses aren't just assumed to be lesbians. Is it more socially acceptable for women to be masculine than for men to be feminine? Yes of course it is, but it isn't all sunshine over in transman land either. There's a big difference between tomboys and transmen.

Samantha Ronson dresses somewhat masculinely, yes. She was also one half of a tabloidy lesbian couple, which is partially why she doesn't get as much flack as others might, it's because she's openly known as being a lesbian. Also, aside from her relationship with Lindsay Lohan, she's hardly someone who is often discussed in the mainstream media. I imagine no one bats an eye with her because most people have no idea who she is, let alone how she dresses.

but GGTracy hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. Female to Male "crossdressing" is more mainstream because frankly, with the exception of transmen, women still dress like women. When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

If the goal is to gain public acceptance of men wearing what are considered women's clothes, then we need to stop clinging to the idea of passing convincingly and trying to look like women, taking on pseudonyms with female names that hide our identities, and wearing falsies all over our body with the attempt to disguise ourselves as women, because we're not doing anything but continuing the cycle in the same way it has been for generations. We're basically agreeing, ok, you're right, men shouldn't wear this stuff, so if I'm going to wear it, obviously I need to be dressed as a woman.

I'm not saying no one should dress to "pass." If you're truly transgendered then you should, just like transmen do. But if all you really want to do is crossdress because you like the clothes, the goal really should be to present yourself as a positive example of a crossdressing man, at least if you want to be the male equivalent of a "tomboy."

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

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Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest factor, although the rest of the reasons you suggest are also a part of it.

If you take a look at other civil rights/acceptance/tolerance struggles, such as the black and other People Of Color civil rights movements; and gay and women's civil rights movements, making themselves highly visible, getting people used to seeing them, and educating people to counteract negative stereotypes are probably the most effective actions they could have taken.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

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I think there are, or SHOULD BE, plenty of gender roles to go around. In fact, I don't see why we should try to fit into well~defined roles at all. We should just be humans. Frankly, I don't see how my wearing pants makes it more difficult for you to wear a dress. It's not like there's some quota where there are only so many opportunities to dress how we want, and GGs are hogging them all up. I'm not trying to take anything away from you, and believe it or not I want you to be able to be yourself. I'm on your side.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa

You know, I really get tired of this argument that women who wear masculine stuff have no social stigma whatsoever. As if terms like "bull dyke" didn't exist, and that women with short hair and a penchant for wearing pants and never skirts and dresses aren't just assumed to be lesbians. Is it more socially acceptable for women to be masculine than for men to be feminine? Yes of course it is, but it isn't all sunshine over in transman land either. There's a big difference between tomboys and transmen.

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Thank you.

I didn't want to participate in this thread because I'm sick of beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to say thanks for making this point.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa

If the goal is to gain public acceptance of men wearing what are considered women's clothes, then we need to stop clinging to the idea of passing convincingly and trying to look like women, taking on pseudonyms with female names that hide our identities, and wearing falsies all over our body with the attempt to disguise ourselves as women, because we're not doing anything but continuing the cycle in the same way it has been for generations. We're basically agreeing, ok, you're right, men shouldn't wear this stuff, so if I'm going to wear it, obviously I need to be dressed as a woman.

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I think you've hit on a good point here, Alyssa. So perhaps we should just wear what we feel comfortable with, i.e. "push the envelope" and wait for society to catch up.

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Originally Posted by ggtracy

However, being a GG, I think that to society, there is a big difference between a feminine man and a man trying to pass as a female. The later seems to throw some people off guard and make them uncomfortable. Mostly because they don't understand the motivation for it.

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. they are not trying to pass as a man.

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So True... also I believe that some feel they are being lied to, " a person trying to present themselves as something they are not "

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Originally Posted by Alyssa

When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

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I agree, but, the one stumbling block here, I don't know this as fact, but I believe the pants they were wearing, were made, or atleast altered to fit the female body, now if the clothing manufacturing industry just made mens clothing, in the same colors, materials and styles as womens clothing, there would be no need for me to crossdress, would there?

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Originally Posted by Alyssa

I'm not saying no one should dress to "pass." If you're truly transgendered then you should, just like transmen do. But if all you really want to do is crossdress because you like the clothes, the goal really should be to present yourself as a positive example of a crossdressing man, at least if you want to be the male equivalent of a "tomboy."

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Reminds me of one night many months ago, I stopped to give a guy that had a dead battery a jump start, I know I gave him a heck of a start when I stepped out of my Toyota in a skirt and heels. :lol: got his big Chevy 4x4 started, he said thanks, shook my hand, and darn near laid rubber leaving...

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Originally Posted by ggtracy

Tomboys are girls who dress how they want, simple and comfortable. They are not trying to pass as a man.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa

When women started truly getting acceptance for wearing pants, they didn't do it to pass as men, they did it as women being able to wear the clothes they want. As Women!

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These two quotes pretty much nail it for me. If we're talking not so much about being transgendered (in the sense that you want to pass) but just wearing the clothes then it's more about "Total Clothing Rights". The idea that clothing is about fashion and not gender expression and everyone has the right to wear whatever fashion style they want to.

However, when you say:

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form. And, I really wonder why?

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... are you talking about behavior, not clothes? If it's behavior then we're in a different territory. Then it's about the social pressures to conform to stereotypical masculine behavior because if you are a guy and you act like a woman then you are apparently throwing away your male privileges (yes, it still is a man's world after all) and are "going down the scale" in the eyes of other men.

IMHO to get people used to the idea of guys being able to openly wear women's designed clothes in boy mode as a guy (like women can wear men's designed clothes in girl mode) I think will only happen when it's becomes more acceptable to be a feminine man in general society and also that people start seeing it more often, on TV, in magazines, in real life etc etc. The two go together - acceptance from other guys that being a feminine man is ok, and that the total clothing rights issue is about it just being a fashion statement.

How can I help? - I already do a little as I go out in public in boy mode but in fairly obvious women's clothes in a sort of "girly-boy" presentation (trying to be an androgynous feminine guy) and I act the same way as I normally do in girl mode (i.e. not very manly) .... but I'm woefully under-performing in this area as if my confidence is low then I don't wear as much eye makeup and my clothes are still girly but they are less girly. I should make it more obvious and show people that I am proud of being feminine ... because I am.

What's the worst insult a male can get in this society? To be called a girl/woman. That alone speaks volumes. To be NOT male is to be considered "less than."

"It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person."
Lohan's girlfriend ( a lesbian to spell it out slowly for some ). And as someone else pointed out, exactly what is "official" transman attire?
What tiny backwoods town are you in that a man in a lavendar shirt leads to questions about him?

Well, here's another take on it. It has to do with economics and class. Not to wax too Marxist, but nearly everything boils down to those factors. Take this how you will, but many men, I said "many", not "all", consider women to be inferior to men. Yes, even in this day and age, imagine! Just listen to the lyrics of a lot of popular songs as well as the fact that most women, once again, not "all", make about 2/3rds of what a man does for doing the same work.

So for a lot of men, and even many women who have unconsciously soaked up the feeling of being inferior to men, a man, a member of a privileged class, wanting to be a woman, whether permanently or temporarily, is about the equivalent of a free, white, male in the pre-Civil South wanting to be a black field-hand. It rocks a fundamental verity of their world view and when people get their beliefs questioned it makes them upset and they lash out.

Just a thought.

Hugs...Joni Mari

It was, perhaps, 1964 or +/- a year of two, Dr. Verne Bullough published an article in The American Journal of Sociology entitled: Transvestites in History. In the article he explores some of the factors in society which impact on the issues involved when males dress as females and do so in public. If you live in a college or University town and can access the library on campus, I recommend this article. Granny

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Originally Posted by Sophie C

Ok, I was wondering for people's thoughts on this, since it's crossed my mind. We've all known that girls being very "boy-ish" has been considered alright but the converse has been never strongly accepted in any way, shape or form.

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[SIZE="2"]I think because in this day and age it’s considered to be a perversion and a sign of weakness, among other things. Personally, I feel that “preferring to be feminine*” is a sign of strength and courage, and it should be admired in males.[/SIZE]
* an excellent quote from Cheshire Gummi :)

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And, I really wonder why?
Is it because it's somewhat of a man's world, and anything embracing that is looked highly upon?

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[SIZE="2"]But why can’t men be openly feminine? I suppose if men talked to each other, rather than fight each other, the whole system of maleness might break down. What if a male apologized to another male and accepted his “weakness” in the eyes of everyone? Maybe it would then become less of a “man’s world,” and we could all start to evolve more quickly.[/SIZE]

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Is it because feminism has made such headway that basically anything goes since such individuality has become a cornerstone for women in society?

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[SIZE="2"]If anything goes, then crossdressing most certainly “goes,” wouldn’t you say? It’s possible that feminism has had an effect on our lifestyles, and we are something like a side effect of their newly won freedoms, but men wearing women’s clothing (and vice versa) has been going on for a long time.[/SIZE]

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Is it because we haven't had a substantial amount of people in mainstream society who have taken a stand to make it considered "not such a big deal?"

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[SIZE="2"]It’s just very hard for people to understand why anyone would do this. The level of discussion among us, here on this site, is a clue to how difficult it is to explain or rationalize our behavior. This actually attracts me, and keeps me rolling along, regardless of whether I’m accepted by society or not. It has to be one of the most difficult and brave things a male can do, IMHO…[/SIZE]

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Or, is it something more?

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[SIZE="2"]The homosexual angle needs to be explored in this context. We live in an anti-gay period when homosexuals are making tentative inroads into everyday life. People with fixed opinions (not original thoughts but ideas forced upon them) are uncomfortable with this change in their lives. Surely, when a crossdresser comes along and wants some form of equality, he or she is lumped in with homosexuals for better or worse. There’s little or no sympathy for those who crossdress, gay or straight, and that’s just a shame in supposedly “enlightened” times like these. It also doesn't help that homosexuals were associated with effeminacy at one time, and they have worked hard to change this stereotypical view, winning some acceptance for themselves but doing nothing for the "cause" of effeminacy. [/SIZE]

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It just sort of blows my mind that (as a simple example) a girl like, say, Samantha Ronson, effectively dresses like a skinny transman every single day without someone batting an eye, but if a man even wears a lavender shirt (entirely male clothing, still), people are bent over backwards, wondering what the hell is wrong with that person.

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[SIZE="2"]I met a man the other day who admired my pink bracelet. He showed me his, but it was wrapped around his wallet rather than his wrist – I felt sorry for him, because he couldn’t allow other men to see even this tiny amount of “pinkness.” [/SIZE]

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It's almost like the more free gender roles are for GGs, the less free they are for GMs.

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[SIZE="2"]I wouldn’t know about that. As an artist, I’m free to embrace the feminine as much as I want, in fact I can’t be an artist if I don’t…[/SIZE]

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So, anyway let's make sure to keep this intellectual. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, from every corner of this forum.

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[SIZE="2"]Well, you reached my dark, claustrophobic corner of the forum! More questions than answers, I'm afraid. Ahhhhhhhhh – feel that refreshing breeze of intellectualism…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Sophie C

(tomboys vs girls like us)

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[SIZE="2"]We all know about “tomboys” and I’ve heard the word (or description) “tomgirl,” too.
How about “janegirl” or “janeboy?” I’m definitely a janeboy…:battingeyelashes:[/SIZE]

The first thought that comes into my head is this: in general, GG tomboy's aren't trying to look completely like guys, while a goal for many m2f cd'ers is to pass as a girl.

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

Why the constant comparison to GG's? We are not or ever will gg's . Isn't dressing like they do enough? Why do some feel that they have to invade their domain right to it's core? If they can't be like gg in every way.. i'ts not fair...

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You know, I'm utterly sick of this nonsense argument so I'm going to slay it right now!

Some CDs are also GGs

Proof: 1 in 60 people are Intersex.

Some GGs are in fact males on their chromasomes but have no idea of that.

Some CDs will actually be XXY or another form of Intersex without knowing it and thus be genetically female or both female and male genetically as well as having a female identity despite the male upbringing.

Someone could go their whole life with a womans genes and a womans internal identity but only know of themselves as CDs.. and in fact 1 in every 60 members here are likely to be Intersex! And 1 in every 60 GGs here would be too!

Oh and the science now suggests that gays and lesbians are neurologically intersex, TSs are neurologically Intersex and it could well be that most CDs are also biologically some degree of Intersex too!

The false gender binary is unscientific drivel. There is massive diversity and no one may claim dominion over any aspect of it.. as some IS conditions allow IS GGs to FATHER children there is not one aspect of being male or female that is totally only available to one sex!

I disagree. Not all CDs try to pass as a girl. Myself and several other girls on the website choose to be men in skirts, heels, and other items buy don't try to pass as female. We are both genders rolled into one.

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Originally Posted by denali419

The first thought that comes into my head is this: in general, GG tomboy's aren't trying to look completely like guys, while a goal for many m2f cd'ers is to pass as a girl.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

You know, I'm utterly sick of this nonsense argument so I'm going to slay it right now!

Some CDs are also GGs

Proof: 1 in 60 people are Intersex.

Some GGs are in fact males on their chromasomes but have no idea of that.

Some CDs will actually be XXY or another form of Intersex without knowing it and thus be genetically female or both female and male genetically as well as having a female identity despite the male upbringing.

Someone could go their whole life with a womans genes and a womans internal identity but only know of themselves as CDs.. and in fact 1 in every 60 members here are likely to be Intersex! And 1 in every 60 GGs here would be too!

Oh and the science now suggests that gays and lesbians are neurologically intersex, TSs are neurologically Intersex and it could well be that most CDs are also biologically some degree of Intersex too!

The false gender binary is unscientific drivel. There is massive diversity and no one may claim dominion over any aspect of it.. as some IS conditions allow IS GGs to FATHER children there is not one aspect of being male or female that is totally only available to one sex!

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And your point is what? That gg's can't claim dominion over being female,because some scientific study "suggests" that 1 in 60 are "LIKEY" to be inter sexed? Lets say for the sake of argument that in some cases this is true. What about all of these men in skirts that claim that they don't wish to be female. and don't feel that they are female yet still complain about how unfair it is that gg's can do this or that and they cannot. How many claim that they feel feminine when the dress, but can easily shift back to male mode when they need to.... and also complain about the disparity? Are you suggesting that these people may be IS and not even know it? I understand that there is diversity, but as far as IS, 1 in 60 would seem more likely the exception than the rule. Like it or not gender binary may be "scientific drivel" ... but it is what society accepts, and until society can be made to see it differently,society will keep accepting it. soooo unfair, but that's the reality wouldn't you say? Scientific studies and statistic are only as good as the people who read,understand and care about them. With everything that is going on in the world today, do you honestly believe that the average person ( the ones that we have to deal with on a daily basis) gives two shakes of a lamb's tail about scientific studies in regards to gender identity. I seriously doubt that many in here give a rat's ass about scientific study as they are too busy with their lives and problems, to worry about the "Mass diversity". It may give one pause, or be a good thread topic, but when they sign out,it's back to their little piece of this thing. Until the masses can be educated, it's the ones who take it upon themselves that are going to slip through the cracks. The ones who are willing to dress in any fashion that they choose.. a man in a dress, a man presenting as a woman, or whoever and however they fit into the mass diversity,are the ones who will and have seen acceptance. The ones who aren't afraid, and take it upon themselves to take a chance. The rest will continue to blame society for their fear. And please, before you site how many transgendered people get injured or killed, just remember one thing. These people died or were harmed because they had the guts to be true to their covictions. Using them as a crutch only serves to sully their memory and make it look like what they did was for not. It takes sacrifice and a good set of b***s to get out there and say.. How do you like me now! Batty, I always read your posts with great interest. I don't always agree with you, but your arguments are always pretty solid, and you always have a lot of informative information.... but it's only as good as those scientic studies and statistics... if it goes no further than in a thread,or falls on deaf ears.
Kelly

As per Sophie's original post I agree with all of the rationales she presented. I also agree with Joni Marie that society is seriously invested in masculinity and anyone who "chooses" to "act like a woman" is definatly going against the rules. And a "man" who wants to look like a "woman" is seen as dissing the "natural order".

Females have earned a lot of freedom over the last hundred years, they fought for it, lived lives of uncertainty and loss for those freedoms. Females are flying combat missions this very day, something they were barred from doing just about 10 years ago. A young woman dared to play College football, and was sexually assaulted for her temerity. Males(in general) are just begining to question society's roles for them.

I do belive that if we manage not to blow up the world, decend into the dark ages, or let clerics and authoritarians run our lives, gender freedom in Western society is enevitable. Many young people are experimenting with gender in ways unimaginable just 20 years ago. With access to the internet and over 50 years of scholarship in genders studies young people can transition sooner and even postpone puberty untill they can choose for themselves. 20 years ago your kid might come home from college to tell you they're gay. Now they might come home in some stage of gender transition or experimentation.

In time this will lead to more social acceptance of gender transgressive behavior. And I think this is what so panics the old guard traditionalists. They see their little black and white world crumbling at the foundations.

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

And your point is what?

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That strict ctagories of male and female are false. Illusions. Caused by a missunderstanding because male and female traits are scattered across a bi-modal distribution even on the genetic level and so there are common traits to each society pretends these are universals when they are nothing of the kind.

No-one is totally one and not any iota the other. Not even the XYY guys that are so often prison-bound.

No trait is solely belonging to one and not the other.

So to say CDs are not or can never be GGs is false cause some of us are and don't know it. Some here may well be more GGs than some here who have lived all their lives thinking they are GGs!

Binary gender is a lie, an illusion, false. Science says even genetically sex and gender are diverse with combinations and variations aplenty.

Society adapted to the fact the earth is round despite looking flat unless examined closely. We need to accept that sex and gender are diverse.

And that means we must rid ourselves of the notion that CDs are not able to be women, cannot legitimately be women. Because plenty are, both biologically, neurologically, psychologically, socially.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

That strict ctagories of male and female are false. Illusions. Caused by a missunderstanding because male and female traits are scattered across a bi-modal distribution even on the genetic level and so there are common traits to each society pretends these are universals when they are nothing of the kind.

No-one is totally one and not any iota the other. Not even the XYY guys that are so often prison-bound.

No trait is solely belonging to one and not the other.

So to say CDs are not or can never be GGs is false cause some of us are and don't know it. Some here may well be more GGs than some here who have lived all their lives thinking they are GGs!

Binary gender is a lie, an illusion, false. Science says even genetically sex and gender are diverse with combinations and variations aplenty.

Society adapted to the fact the earth is round despite looking flat unless examined closely. We need to accept that sex and gender are diverse.

And that means we must rid ourselves of the notion that CDs are not able to be women, cannot legitimately be women. Because plenty are, both biologically, neurologically, psychologically, socially.

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Regardless, your point is moot. You may be right on paper, but it doesn't change how things really are.(societies view) Wouldn't it be nice if.........

When women "crossdress", which is a big fat exaggeration anyway, they do not do so in the same way I do when I put on a skirt or a dress. They are not doing so in order to emulate men. They are not taking any extra steps in order to appear to the rest of humanity as a man. But when I crossdress, I wear breasts, a wig, and for all appearances, look like a woman. Society isn't so worked up about bending the genders a little, but it does get worked up about the full boat. Women (usually) arent' binding their breasts and putting a bulge in their jeans, or trying on a suit and tie in order to look like men. Instead, they take a style of clothing that used to be reserved for men, and make it their own. I don't choose to appear as a man wearing clothing choices that are reserved for women. I choose to emulate a woman in the full sense.

Big difference, and not comparable on any level. One has nothing to do with the other.

:dh:

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

Regardless, your point is moot. You may be right on paper, but it doesn't change how things really are.(societies view) Wouldn't it be nice if.........

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And societies views get reformed.

By people pointing out where its wrong and having the courage to do so till enough people grok it.

And how things really are is the scientific truth of sex and gender diversity. It's not even rare but common. Society has hidden it and hidden from it (or at least modern western society has) but societies views are not the truth. The world was not flat, women were not inherantly inferior, indiginous peoples were not sub-human. Gender is not binary.

And as for everyones remarks about pants-wearing can we all please recognise the importance of transgender and lesbian women to womens equality including pants-wearing?

I know that the straight cis women did their best to excise them from the movement and it's history but the rebellious 'passing women' daring to dress to pass as men and even marry other women or fight in wars were inspiring to many feminists. The daring lesbian underground fashions of Germany and Paris involving actual FtM crossdressing was often the lead in the whole women-in-pants fashion.

Short hair too!

So, as women's fashion has changed, men's fashion has changed to compensate and support the binary. For example, as short shorts have became very popular on women, they are now viewed as a faux pas on men. When this happens and the binary is well suppported, we still have ample visual clues whether someone is male or female. Many people want that to be something that can easily be determined and are uncomfortable with living in a world where it is difficult to identify the gender of a person quickly and easily. Ever since razors were invented and men could shave their beards (the most emasculating grooming practice there is), mankind has been confronted with finding a way to determine gender via adornment, clothing, grooming practices, etc.

However, there is a counter-cultural movement against the gender binary and we are all members of this movement; some more visibly than others.

I don't think this explains everything but I think it is part of the equation.

I know I look at this issue from an American perspective,which is rather behind. Is social acceptance closer perhaps in some more liberal countries like the Netherlands or Sweeden or Denmark?

[SIZE="3"]Oh for the love of...

You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

If a woman wears short skirts, she's considered a ****.

If a woman wears a long flowing skirt, she's a hippy.

If a woman wears all black, she's a goth.

If a woman wears "masculine" clothes, she's a lesbian.

So on and so forth.

I for one, and SICK AND TIRED of being shoved into a label so people can feel justified in wearing what they want to wear.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

WHO CARES?!

Honestly!

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to. I promise not to make assumptions about you, your life, your sexuality, etc. and we can go along our merry little way.

Please stop making it sound as if every other social group (and that's what you're categorizing women as at the moment) has it oh-so-much easier.

Just get up, get dressed and stop worrying about who can wear what. Just do it. Stop trying to find justification for it. Just do it.

What's the worse that's going to happen? Someone questions your "manhood". A huge portion of the cders on here do that for themselves. [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Ze

Thank you.

I didn't want to participate in this thread because I'm sick of beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to say thanks for making this point.

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And I want to thank you for posting as you can't have a discussion without multiple view points.

Now as to the topic at hand.

We used to have a society with strict lines defining gender, not only in clothes, but also in jobs and other behaviours. Feminism has been a lot about crossing those lines with the goal of getting women seen as equals of men. It has also become somewhat easier for men to cross those traditional lines but is seems to be a slower process.

On the other hand, like others already posted, part of it is because the Feminism movement is not about women trying to be men but about having equal rights. Women trying to be men still have the same problems as the other way around. A woman with a beard has no easier time than a man in a dress for example. People still get upset and confused if you cross the gender lines.

What often leads to confusion on this forum, is that there are two kinds of people here, those that want to be the opposite sex, and those that want to cross the gender lines. Their behaviour might be similar, but their mindsets are not.

What has changed over time is where the gender lines are drawn, and a lot have become fuzzy, some don't exist any more.

We as a community still run into problems if we try to cross the lines that remain.

-------------------------

So we should try and ask, what has made lines change, become more fuzzy or disappear in the past and can we use that?

I find that a hard question to answer.

Some of it has to do with having a reason for crossing the gender line, that ends up getting accepted by society at large, but that's far from the entire story.

Maybe someone else can come up with some good answers to this question?

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I disagree. Not all CDs try to pass as a girl. Myself and several other girls on the website choose to be men in skirts, heels, and other items buy don't try to pass as female. We are both genders rolled into one.

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Which is why I wrote that it's a goal of *many*, not all. ;)

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Originally Posted by Gerard

On the other hand, like others already posted, part of it is because the Feminism movement is not about women trying to be men but about having equal rights. Women trying to be men still have the same problems as the other way around. A woman with a beard has no easier time than a man in a dress for example. People still get upset and confused if you cross the gender lines.

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But part of feminism was about Lesbians and Trans guys!

Phobes amongst feminism directly and deliberately expelled them from feminst groups as they neared their goals just as the black-vote movement dropped the womens vote movement in Americs as they neared their goals.

And later feminists tried to revise their history to make it look like a white-based middle-class straight cis movement.

But many of the early pioneers from free-love Mary Walstonecraft author of The Rights Of Women and mother of Frankenstein author Mary Shelley to the crossdressing women in the nightclubs and the 'Molly' lesbian prostitutes on the streets of London were the ones pushing the boundaries at the very start and were an essential part of the movement in all its eras.

Why are tomboys so accepted?

Simple. Women acquiring male behavior is about power, males acquiring female behavior is deemed to be about sex. The former is acceptable, the latter is considered deviant.

Secondly feminism. This is NOT just about getting equal rights, feminism is primarily about social engineering, getting women to compete/better men by borrowing the "best" bits from masculinity. There is no equivalent masculine movement trying to do this.

Conclusion. Women now live a transgendered lifestyle even if they are not TG themselves as individuals, they have been pushed this way by social forces.

[SIZE="4"]I'm new to the forum and seem people use the term GG. I don't to seem naive, but I not sure what GG stands for. Please would someone let me know.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Metoo

[SIZE="4"]I'm new to the forum and seem people use the term GG. I don't to seem naive, but I not sure what GG stands for. Please would someone let me know.[/SIZE]

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GG stands for Genetic Girl.
A person born with a female body.

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

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Originally Posted by Noxvictum

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

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You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

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Originally Posted by DemonicDaughter

[SIZE="3"]Oh for the love of...

You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

If a woman wears short skirts, she's considered a ****.

If a woman wears a long flowing skirt, she's a hippy.

If a woman wears all black, she's a goth.

If a woman wears "masculine" clothes, she's a lesbian.

So on and so forth.

I for one, and SICK AND TIRED of being shoved into a label so people can feel justified in wearing what they want to wear.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

WHO CARES?!

Honestly!

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to. I promise not to make assumptions about you, your life, your sexuality, etc. and we can go along our merry little way.

Please stop making it sound as if every other social group (and that's what you're categorizing women as at the moment) has it oh-so-much easier.

Just get up, get dressed and stop worrying about who can wear what. Just do it. Stop trying to find justification for it. Just do it.

What's the worse that's going to happen? Someone questions your "manhood". A huge portion of the cders on here do that for themselves. [/SIZE]

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I totally agree with you! I know it can be tough to "just do it," but that's the only way transphobia is going to be overcome. The worst that can happen, is someone can get bashed or killed for dressing in public. But I bet there's always more to it than that. Maybe they went in some dark alleyway alone at night, or tred usual places that people get bashed or killed, sometimes for simply being there and not always just because they're in DRAG.
I agree that when a person says, "GGs can do this and I can't IT'S NOT FAIR!" That it's a copout. CDers can do it, some of them just won't. However, I did say it can be tough. One has to be brave to overcome transphobia.

Just last night, I was out in public in a crowded place with a CDing friend of mine. She was in total DRAG, and I watched around her as hardly anyone cared or took any notice.
She's a blithering mess of nerves and if she can do it, any CDer can.

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Originally Posted by Wen4cd

You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

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No, i didn't forget. I'm talking about when this all started, when we were just very social apes.

I often wonder if our human programming for survival is stronger than we give it credit for.

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man=hunter/protector and woman=caregiver/nurturer/gatherer.

When I see my mother I think caring person, somebody to help me empathize and learn to cooperate with others. When I see my father I think strength and somebody who brought home the bacon and protected us from the world.

If I saw my father in a dress I think it would disrupt my programming and I would wonder who is going to make sure the world does not hurt us? Even with my acceptance of wearing dresses I would think it was wrong to see him like this, that something was misfiring in society.

I suspect that there are still many societies in the world that follow strict tenets and rites of passage in order to preserve this age-old order of gender for the sake of survival. Some of these guidelines seem extreme to me but my opinion is born from the luxury of gadgets and shopping malls, mass transit and credit cards, do what you want and want all you want.

Since humans have prospered and we can shop in grocery stores etc rather than hunt and gather our food and make our own clothes - just survive - we may have simply allowed ourselves to experience more sides of life that generations of centuries past and that would include common versions of crossdressing that we witness in these forums. We can enjoy our spare time in any way we choose as we are not bloodying ourselves just trying to sustain ourselves. We are still in the process of reprogramming centuries of survival presets and I would imagine that it takes more than a couple of generations to override them.

Anyway, no judgments just a thought or two for discussion. :2c:

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Originally Posted by Noxvictum

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

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A huge portion of our advancement has depended totally on the different.

The Aspergers give us mots of our technological advancements.

The schizophrenics and their relatives much of our art and culture.

The psychopaths and powerpaths drive progress and competition.

The 'norms' live and prosper on the backs of the weird.

We have two nearest relatives genetically, the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo.

Chimps are murderous, violent, rape, suspicious and hostile towards the strange and different and have a physical power of the males based social system.

Bonobos are friendly and caring and have a society based on matriarchy and massive sexual orgies!

Humans appear to have both traits.. and much of history can be seen as a conflict between chimp-like and bonobo-like genes in our species.

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Originally Posted by Wen4cd

You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

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Indeed that has been the role of TGs in many cultures. But in some our role was more in child-rearing and home making. Some allowed FtMs to take prominant military roles.

But our being wiped from social understanding and driven into hiding and obscutrity is in much of the world only a couple centuries old. We all need to learn and rember that society is NOT naturally anto TG. It has become so using force only recently in humanities existence.

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Originally Posted by Veronica Lacey

I often wonder if our human programming for survival is stronger than we give it credit for.

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man=hunter/protector and woman=caregiver/nurturer/gatherer.

:2c:

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Not true! (I have family members with degrees in archaeology, anthropology, paleolithic rock-art and I once did work with the team that unearthed the 'hobbit' find Homo Floresiensis).

If women stayed home we'd be extinct. Google the megafauna that lived in Australia when humans forst got here. Marsupial lions with stronger bite force than a T-Rex! 40 foot long carniverous lizards!

Every tribe member was needed for food gathering. The gatherers needed to be able to fight off saber-toothed tigers and dire-wolves and Thylecoleo Carnifex while the hunters were out after mammoths and diprotodon for often a week or more at a time.

Women could not have been weak and humanity survive. Besides a number of hunter-gatherer societies in recent history did not have the strict gender based split.

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Originally Posted by DemonicDaughter

[SIZE="3"]You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.


Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.


. [/SIZE]

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You took the words right out of my Mouth DD. And I hate to be the one to point this out ladies, but CDs are the worst offenders when it comes to criticising what we GGs wear. I am often criticised by my CD friends for not wearing girly clothes and making the most of my femininity. So much so that I dont even comment now other than to raise an eyebrow and utter the words POT KETTLE and BLACk.
take care
Bev

Most other people don’t believe that TG people have positive social value. In one common argument, TG people are viewed as having negative value because we are perceived to have negated our natural sex and gender. We are perceived as people who have an artificial sex and artificial gender. Our artificial sex and gender is deemed to be inferior to the natural sex and gender of other people.

Furthermore, artificial femaleness and artificial femininity are viewed as the lowest forms of any possible sex and gender expression. This is the case because we are prone to believe there is one best form of everything including sex and gender. The absurdity of this belief does not register with a large number of people. Consequently, males are widely ranked as superior to females, and masculinity is widely ranked as superior to femininity.

Life will improve for everyone when social majorities stop believing in gender monism (one uniform superior gender) or gender dualism (two uniform superior genders) and start respecting gender pluralism (diverse types of each gender).

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Originally Posted by DemonicDaughter

[SIZE="3"]
You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to.[/SIZE]

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:clap: :clap:

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Why are tomboys so accepted?

Simple. Women acquiring male behavior is about power, males acquiring female behavior is deemed to be about sex. The former is acceptable, the latter is considered deviant.

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Simple ....... Yes. But not in the way your thinking.
Why are tomboys so accepted?
Why? Because a lot/most/some men in general on some level find it attractive. Or they simply just think that a tomboy is more approachable then a girly girl. :D

But on the flip side [ie-Woman] until recently the age old image of what is a man has been Mr rugged, The Marlboro man, big strong tuff, ect ect ect.
The new kinder gentler man, the shaving more then their faces, pretty boy, metrosexual types are still somewhat new. I guess you can call it a start.
[Please don't mind the generalisms in the above statement :D]

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Originally Posted by Veronica Lacey

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man= hunter/ protector and woman= caregiver/ nurturer/ gatherer.

When I see my mother I think caring person,
When I see my father I think strength and somebody who brought home the bacon and protected us from the world. :2c:

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But that is not always the case, even more so today.
What if your father was never around, or your mother maybe?

My mom was divorced long before it was fashionable to be.
So growing up she was the caregiver as well as the bread winner and protector.

Just like a lot of single moms are today.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

A huge portion of our advancement has depended totally on the different.

The 'norms' live and prosper on the backs of the weird.

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OH How true! And proven in the following statement:

"A rational man changes himself to suit his surroundings.
An irrational man changes his surroundings to suit himself."

Basically - every advancement done by the human race through out all of history has been made/done by irrational people.

So if it wasn't for all the weird/ outcast/ crazy/ diff/ Not normal people we would still be living in caves, :lol2:

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Originally Posted by SamanthaM

But on the flip side [ie-Woman] until recently the age old image of what is a man has been Mr rugged, The Marlboro man, big strong tuff, ect ect ect.
The new kinder gentler man, the shaving more then their faces, pretty boy, metrosexual types are still somewhat new. I guess you can call it a start.[/B]
[Please don't mind the generalisms in the above statement :D]

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Ahhh... but thats not always been the case! The Dandy, the effeminate yet attractive elegant man has been the sex symbol of the past.

Eunach singers were chased by women and men for their beauty!

Male fashions have in the past been at times very feminine.

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Originally Posted by SamanthaM

Because a lot/most/some men in general on some level find it attractive. Or they simply just think that a tomboy is more approachable then a girly girl.

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Or maybe men find women desirable irregardless of what clothes are worn, after all men are thinking about what she looks like with the clothes off! Women on the other hand can feel threatened and lost when men feminize their appearance. Unfamiliarity with feminine men is a minor part of the issue as many long term relationships with CDs suffer from problems that run much deeper than unfamiliarity.

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Originally Posted by Katie B

but in fact it's not society as a whole that rejects us -- it's certain men who reject us; one rarely hears about CDs having trouble from women and in my experience it's never happened.

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It is rare for CDs to have trouble from anyone. But when it does happen, one of the main culprits are teenage girls. And that is my experience too.

Actually we are rejected equally by small minded people, men and women alike. Women are more likely to keep their thoughts to themselves though. If you believed that the public face people put on reflected their true feelings about us then we would believe women thought CDs were wonderful, but we know that when relationships become intimate the majority of women have major problems with us.

We need to stop thinking in gender stereotypes and believing men and women think about us differently. The issues we face are about prejudice and ignorance which are spread equally through both sexes. Most people think CDs are gays dressing up as women for sex.