Printable View
I had a question for some of us here:
[SIZE="3"]Why try and pass?[/SIZE]
I ask this because, if you check my blog below [:battingeyelashes:] I don't wear makeup (save lip gloss and nail polish) nor wigs. I even keep short hair, not very manly, but short.
I'm not saying that makeup and wigs are wrong, I just don't understand. Help?
Lol! :hd: I just thought that smiley was funny.
For me, it was to be accepted as who I really am, being welcomed into the world as an attractive woman, not reviled and bullied as a sissy boy, bad at sports, not worth having as a friend because my weirdness might be contagious.
But if you don't feel a need to be accepted as a woman, then why bother with makeup and wigs? Many mornings I wish I could just head out the door without making sure my hair looked nice, I had on my war paint :) and my outfit looked coordinated. As a boy, I was up, dressed and out of the house in like 5 minutes. There is something to be said for that when you're running late in the morning.
Hugs, Marci
ps: I see where you live now. Don't you love the southern tier, especially in the fall? :) Howdy, neighbor
To project the me, that I feel. I would like to look as lady like as posible so I project the lovlyness I feel.
I only desire to pass as an effeminate man,No problems there(hehe)Nancy
Although it is difficult for me comprehend that you really don't have some inkling why some wish to "pass", you pose a very interesting question. Of course, the first thing that comes to my mind is, if you consider wigs and makeup and whatever to be beside the point, why do you adopt the dress of a woman at all? I mean, isn't that an artificial construct as well? Seems like you have imposed an arbitrary threshold, which is fine, but is it really that much of a stretch for you to understand why some would wish to take it further?
I should inject here that I for one believe that your approach to gender blurring is valid and interesting and attractive. My first exposure to this way of thinking was the blog Transvestite Freedom Fighter -- The Art of Not Passing authored by Pristine Ann Gee (the latest iteration of her blog is www.d332.com). Perhaps you're familiar with it? It was rather revelatory for me and set me free of unrealistic ambitions.
Which brings me to my own CDing philosophy. I've made it no secret here and elsewhere that I consider "passing" to be an illusion for most of us, but more to the point, I really have little interest in passing. In fact, I usually want to be perceived as a crossdresser because it most accurately reflects who and what I am, and because I am interested in eliciting the interest of someone who is attracted to that sort of thing. Given that preference, I'm not sure why I prefer to adopt traditional feminine fashion and appearance from head to toe, why that scratches my itch better than your partially dressed approach, I just know that it does. Maybe it's to feel that I am expressing outwardly what I feel on the inside, to communicate more thoroughly who I am to others. I'm not at all sure, however, that I accomplish that any more effectively than you do with your approach. Which leads me to another reason -- I do it cuz it feels good.
I want to feel pretty. I also don't want to draw the attention that here is some "weirdo". I want everyone that sees me to see me as a attractive woman. However, as I dress conservatively, I don't want to be looked at as a "streetwalker".
I don't want to draw attention to myself. Just seem as some average, pretty woman about in her business.
I like how you view things Sherri!Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
I wear what I wear for a very universal reason: I like it better. It's what I feel comfortable in.
I have a grrrr with makeup anyways: I think it is fake. I don't like makeup on anyone unless they are on stage. I have never met one person that I think needed the makeup that they wore. I think that people should be proud of who they are and not cover it up.
I guess it boils down to a different question: if not a transsexual, which I know most of you are not, why try and pass as a female? Why not be proud of being the feminine male that you are? (you seem to be close to this category, sherri)
And again, I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, I just don't understand the position.
I only wish to LOOK like a female. I can't pass as one, so why try? :straightface:
Sounds like when u dress, u only have to please yourself!? Well, I do, too!:)
I agree with you. To "Pass" is relative to what you want to accomplish.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanaBCD
For me, I don't want to be a woman but I also don't want to look like a pervert in a dress either. So to "Pass" for me would simply mean to not draw any unnecessary attention that would lead to public ridicule.
I haven't gone out dressed yet. :D
Why, because I want to look like a women. Look as good as a women look in a dress. Feel a sentuous as a women feel when she's dressed up. I don't wnat to just look like a guy in a dress. That's one reason why you don't see my face. I have not aquired the great technique of applying makeup. But I'm working on it.
As some of echoed, I see it as more of a desire to be accept than to pass. In an ideal world without the bianary gender system we have, we would be free to be who we are. But in our current polarized society people are only widely accepted if they fit cis-gendered roles. We are raised to fear those that don't fit in. Many of us feel uncomfortable being completely male cis-gendered and don't fit in, in that role. Therefore in an effort to fit in and be accepted, we try to "pass".
It is a very personal thing and we are all different, but on some level I believe we all want to be accepted, and to some that means passing.
Really for me, I guess I just want to be believed as what I'm trying to look like..if that makes sense. And I also guess it's just that I want to avoid all the awkward glances. :o
Toni, you are fairly new here so you may not be aware that this subject gets a lot of air time. But another go round the block won't hurt.
Each of us has a personal CDing 'mission' and if you don't require to pass as a woman in public, fine. But many of us do. See Alana's, Tanya's and Sheri' replies for example.
I try to pass as well and you might not think so from my avatar but I am fairly successful.
But good luck to you in your personal CDing odyssey.
Simply put...I want to see if I can. To me, that's the fun and challenge of dressing. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth
Ruth, I completely agree. And that's why I say I don't think it's wrong, I'm just trying to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miranda09
Miranda, I like that attitude!!
Situational needs and desires. When in Rome...yada yada.
Challenge met (I can and do "pass" when I want to), so that is out. Like the clothes but don't have to be totally dressed to the nines. That is more (less?) an issue as I age because I don't NEED the extra frills and pomp. So when I do want to "Pass" (still hate that phrase...need something else) I want to pass like a high end classy dressed to the max woman who wants the paparazzi to stop and use a whole roll of film. Otherwise I be happy just being me :)
And that, my dear, is reason enough. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
I do believe you are a feminist! :) You remind me of the libbers of my youth. Seriously, I'd say your point is one of personal preference, not ideology. For me, wearing makeup has nothing to do with principle or pride and everything to do with a) the fact that I like it; b) the degree of expression I prefer (see below); and, c) the perception, often supported by compliments from friends (not everyone shares your opinion about makeup), that makeup makes me prettier. You might disagree, but really, your personal taste is no more valid than anyone else's.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
Yes, I would say that describes me fairly accurately. But again, why do you find it necessary to adopt the clothing of women at all in order to express your identity and personality? I see on your blog that you wear women's blouses, skirts, leggings, shoes etc. Could you not express yourself without that (some gays do just that, for example)? You choose to stop short of complete emulation, but the arbitrary distinction you're trying to impose is really just a matter of degree. We're essentially up to the same thing, and I'm at a loss as to why that is difficult for you to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
Btw, the fact that most of us are not transsexual isn't really the defining benchmark. It's more informative to bring the term transgender into play, which I consider to be an umbrella term encompassing all iterations of non-conventional gender expression. Some CDers actually prefer "transgender" to "crossdresser" and I tend to subscribe to that myself, even though I'm not really all that concerned with nomenclature. But I digress. While there do indeed seem to be quite a few CDers who are preoccupied with passing, for many others (like me) passing has little to do with it. It's all about freedom of expression, baby.
Passing is a by-product of the goal I set for myself. I think women are beautiful, and it's just a beauty that I want for myself.
Just so happens, women pass as women.
I want to project the inside of me to the rest of the world. It actually doesn't bother me if I pass or not but I love feeling and looking feminine so will always try to do the best I can to be so.
Toni,
I remember the first time I dressed---very young---and I didn't look like the girl I felt inside. I was embarrassed and I felt bad.
Years later I went for a professional makeover and when I saw myself I felt like I was looking at my 'real' self for the first time. In a funny way, my dressing has nothing to do with the clothes. It has everything to do with the complete look. I want to look, feel and be accepted as a woman.
For me it is not about 'passing' but about becoming the woman I have always felt inside. Putting on partial clothing does not accomplish that for me; nor would getting dressed and looking like a man from the shoulders up.
I like you Sherri!! You talk my language.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
I completely agree with the freedom of expression. I think it is that semi-feminist in me that says that makeup is unnecessary. I will probably complain about that until the cows come home.
But know this, [SIZE="3"]I will defend the right for you to wear that makeup until the cows come home, too![/SIZE]
I like the term transgender as the umbrella. I always delineated it like this:
- Transgender - One who does not conform to the gender norms of the larger society.
- Crossdresser - Wears some or all the clothing of the opposite gender. Also falls under the term transgendner.
- Transvestite - Wears the clothes and assumes the appearance of the opposite gender. Also falls under the terms transgendner and crossdresser.
- Transsexual - Assumes the dress, appearance, and physiology (to some degree) of the opposite gender. Also falls under the terms transgendner, crossdresser, and transvestite.
Is this a good delineation?
Or maybe a different delineation?
- Transgender
- Transornatus - Latin. Speaks to the clothing only.
- Transvulticulus - Latin. Speaks more to the overall appearance, less about the clothing itself.
- Transsexual
It almost gives a better delineation of what the importance is on.
Maybe. Do you wear bra? :DQuote:
I do believe you are a feminist!
Lol... to quote Ratatouille...Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteDuality
[SIZE="3"]Nopeitty Nopeitty No!![/SIZE]
I don't have the software! I don't need the extra hardware. Plus it saves me money at VS!
I LIKE THESE!!!!
:spank::rofl::facepalm:
[SIZE="2"]Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with Sherri’s take on this complex issue. Every crossdresser has his or her own approach, based solely on what makes you feel good at any given moment. I have no desire to pass per se, but it’s fun to try now and then – I’m rather insular and anti-social in any event, preferring my own company in a quiet setting, but everyone’s different. I also like to be perceived as a crossdresser, and not an actual female, mainly because I find the whole idea to be fascinating, beautiful, and at odds with what I’m supposed to be. Also, dressing allows me to bring a pleasurable state of mind forward, to the surface, where it can do the most good. Thinking about why all of this happens, and what it all ultimately means, spoils the fun IMHO. Can’t we just enjoy ourselves and our curious compulsions? I pass here, and that’s all that matters to me…:battingeyelashes: [/SIZE]Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
Woman represent the beauty of man. I just want to be like them.
Why thank you sweetie! :battingeyelashes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
Hmm, well it's pretty close. In the parlance of academia and behavioral scientists, I think the terms crossdresser and transvestite are used interchangeably. I suppose the term crossdresser would be more appropriate for someone who only wears panties or skirts or whatever, whereas transvestites nearly always go for full emulation, but the latter term doesn't seem to be very popular with TGs these days, I presume because of the negative connotations associated with its use in general society. So crossdresser is prolly more PC, and TG even better (imo). And while a transsexual is a form of transgender, I regard TS as distinct from CD and TV, both in character and degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
But none of that matters much to me. I'll answer to just about anything ... except sir. :)
Hmm. I'm not sure I want to get involved in this at all.
BUT . . . I don't wear makeup, I don't wear wigs, and I don't wear a bra when I can get away with it, either. I AM a feminist. And I don't worry about "passing" (Oh how I dislike that word). But I suspect that we have very different outlooks.
I am not celebrating my maleness at all. If anything, I am rejoicing in my femaleness.
This just shows you what a wonderful diversity we have on this forum.
Lovies,
Stephenie
That is very well put. There is a certain serenity to the way Freddy thinks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frédérique
Since when does one need a reason Toni?:)
Its a strait forward question with a relatively simple answer.
I try to pass because I want to be seen as and be accepted as a woman, not a freak, not a guy in a dress, as a woman.
I'm not trying to mess with people's minds, I'm not trying to get off, I'm not trying to get away with something, I am just trying to be myself - a woman in the world. And if I don't pass, or at least make a significant effort (significant enough to be accepted even when I don't pass) I fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
I have to say I feel the same way. I unfortunately do not pass. When I take my time and really try, I am quite acceptable. I wish I could pass. I did when I was younger, thinner and could use my own hair, but now middle age has set in and those days are long gone.
I think one of the reasons id like to "pass" is so i can wear whatever I want, a guy w/ a beard wearing a mini skirt, tights and heels sure turns some heads. Im very happy w/ who I am, just wish I could dress any dam way I want without taking so much shi* from people in this socitey, so for now as far as I get going out in public dressed as I please are my kilts.
Reading the posts since mine, I would like to add something. I love the beauty of femininity. I want to experience that, by having others see that in me, and by seeing and feeling that in myself.
Not wanting to pass or even make an attempt.
Not me.
:yt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephenie S
Yeah. I agree. I think we need new terminology. Who's with me?Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
Lol... We all have reasons, Denise, even if we have to soul search to find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes
*clears throat*Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
:rant:
Hope, Hope, Hope. You just made my point! Even if you are a guy in a dress, [SIZE="3"]you are not a freak![/SIZE] Now, in my personal opinion, and I think the opinion of the larger crappy culture in which we find ourselves, passing is seen as trying to 'get away with something.'
And, on top of that, you'd be amazed with how accepted I am as a male in a skirt. I don't call myself a 'guy' necessarily, but we should have the right to be 'guys in skirts' if we want to.
I'm not saying that trying to pass is wrong or strange, but, at the same time, you don't have to pass to be the woman you want to be!
You can be a male and a woman. You can be a female and a man. You can be a transmale and a cisgender. These arbitrary combinations are social constructs which we have to unite to break.
:awe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Jayne
:jump: I like that post alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frédérique
Passing is the ultimate test, no?
What are we testing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettyann303
I can totally I.D with this. I love the way you put it, although for me passing does not include my voice. I quite happily banter about with my man voice. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
I'm probably not the best person to answer this question, since I'm in the middle of really deciding who I am, but I think it stems from the desire to escape the paradigm.
When you're a crossdresser, there are certain preconceived notions and roles that just naturally follow you around. They stem from social conditioning. The desire to be seen directly as what you portray is not always just vanity, but the desire to shed those ridiculous pretenses.
I, myself, am slowly starting to drift away from my desire to be seen as anything. Perhaps that is for the best...
mental image of being a female + physical image of being a female = passing
The ability to "pass" is the same as getting an A+ on a subject in school. Look at it this way, the least difficult hurdle a man has to overcome to be taken for a woman is by dressing as one. Other ways include posture and speech.
The ability to pass is indeed the Holy Grail of crossdressers because it is by that barometer that we are thought of as a female, which is exactly the way we think of ourselves to be. Having others, be they male or female, view us as women is what our goal is, simply because that is who we are, we are females in a male body.
To be viewed by others (who do not know us) as a female is the highest compliment we can hope to expect. When one "passes" for the first time the thrill is one that you'll always remember with total satisfaction.
I do think that the desire to "pass" should be the goal of every crossdresser, it really is that important.
Toni,
Even though I think you and I share a similar mindset in our crossdressing, I answer your question the same way I did Sherry's about why don't we pass?
What's to get? For some people there's a desire that we don't share. Neither is the right or wrong way to do it, it's just a personal thing. We don't need to understand their need to do it because it works for them just like what we do works for us.
I like most of what you said. I don't think that it is a right or a wrong. I stated that alot. I don't think it's wrong or weird or strange; I just don't understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye
I disagree with you on the understanding part. If I can understand it, I can defend it all the more to those who would attack my sisters, and that I won't stand for.
Knowledge and understanding are the only weapons against bigotry and oppression.
And that's as it should be. Perfectly valid and embraceable in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
That is why, if I really gave a rip about such things, I suppose I would choose the term transgender -- for both of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettyann303
This too is perfectly valid. It may not be realistic for many of us, but it is no less a legitimate desire. I have no problem with interacting with you on that basis and do not doubt that I would think of you in precisely those terms. It would be my pleasure. I do, however, take issue with the blanket statement that passing should be everyone's goal. That just ain't so.Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylFlint
I don't know that I have a holy grail, but if I did I suppose it would be to love the person I see in the mirror, and socially, to successfully experience interactions and forge relationships in which I am accepted, even appreciated and loved, for who and what I am. And what I am is a person first and foremost, and beyond that, a person born male but with pronounced feminine traits that mean a great deal to me, that I am quite comfortable with, that define me as much as any other characteristics. It is not important to me to persuade people that I'm something I'm not, and one thing I'm not is a genetic female. I am only female by disposition and choice, and that's just fine with me.
Then you should be walking around in a perpetual state of bliss, cuz there are plenty of nice people out there who are more than happy to treat you like the Miss you love to be. :) It takes a little more than that to bliss me out, but it does make my day.Quote:
Originally Posted by susancdd
Silly me, I thought you were asking a serious question. I didn't realize you were trying to make a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonixd
How FU(#ING DARE you tell me what I do and don't have to be. I don't have to do one GD effing thing to please you. What I DO need to do is pass, or at least come as close as possible for me, and it would be nice if, while claiming the right to not pass, or even try - you would be kind enough to extend the same sort of consideration to others.
It's awfully nice that you feel comfortable as a guy in a skirt. Shouldn't everyone be just like you! Then the world would be a happy place full of joy and bunnies.
Sadly, some of us feel differently. Not all of us want to be guys in skirts. Some of us are evil "trying to pass" trannies, some of us are even *GASP* women trapped in this existence. Some of us are pretty bloody horrified living as men and will do just about anything we can to NOT be identified as men. Being a "guy in a skirt" doesn't make it better, even if you think it should. Sorry for ruining your party.
But you are right, you SHOULD have the right to be a guy in a skirt. Just like I should have the right to try my best to NOT be a guy in a skirt. You can't have it both ways.
I have never dressed to pass, but to please myself. When I have fully dressed, I dressed to present the most complete feminine appearance I could within the bounds of polite society. For me that means, to present myself as a sucessfull lady. And lady is the key word. If I could not achieve that goal then I did not attempt to "pass", and for me that word meant to blend in to the enviroment. And that meant no skirts and blouse on the beach, but also no beach clothes downtown. No ****ty clothes either. Key word; presenting myself as a lady.
SarahLynn
There are lots of things I would quite like to do but can't - drive a train, ski, make a film - and "passing" as a woman is just one of them. I accept that and do not spend any time worrying about it. The reasons I can't do these things vary - lack of kill, money, access, etc - and in the case of "passing" there's appearance on the one hand and likely consequences on the other. Both those factors are too daunting for me to even contemplate going out dressed and attempting to "pass". None of this stops me enjoying dressing when the opportunity arises. Would I like to experience going about fully as a woman? Yes I would, but it can't happen and that's that.
I admire all the people here who can "pass", all those who don't care and go out and about partially or fully dressed in female clothing but it's not for me and I'm quite happy about and accepting of that.
OP asked an interesting question, and his perspective is interesting too
IT really is a VERY simple answer...why try to pass? because you want to to!
Tonix, et al... you do realize that you asked a question, got alot of very similar answers, and then spent a great deal of time trying to explain why you don't want to pass.
just sayin..
Pot meet kettle...you are both black...now shake hands and be friends
Some of us, including me, need to be reminded of this occasionally. Because it differs so substantially from our own perspectives, it's all too easy to lose sight of it. I happen to believe there is a bit of pretending that goes on by some along these lines, but I know it's real enough for others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
If I might please try to play the peacemaker here, I really don't think Toni meant any disrespect. There may be a certain what's-good-for-me-is-good-for-everybody tone to his posts, but I honestly chalk that up to his youth and lack of experience. I may have been a bit like that myself a long time ago, before life taught me I didn't know so much. Honestly though, Toni seems pretty open-minded and even-tempered to me -- once you get your point through to him! :D Bottom line, I think you two are polar opposites in your TG perspectives, so it's all too easy to get on each other's nerves. But I believe you both mean well.
Fwiw.
Being new to the site i have to say i dont tend to pass completely everytime i dress. But about 1 time a month i dress to pass and go out. I just do it for myself because i love all the time spent putting makeup on ad experimenting with new colors.
In a very simple answer is it's just how my femme side is wired and I no longer really question or wonder why my femme side is that way.
It's just a part of my femme sides personality to want to emulate and look as closely as possible as a GG, which in my case is very difficult with my broad shoulders and arms.