Ah do I pass?

NOT!!!!!

I was out at the club recently and there were several CDers there who were dressed beside myself...

The first one was all dressed up and the clothes were OK but the face wasn't working at all. The guy who I was talking to even made the comment that this one's make up was way off...just looked like a guy with make up on.

A second one looked really good and it was a bit difficult to decide. One problem with ehr was it really looked like she was bummed out...I saw that and even the bartender saw it as well and went up to her and tried to introduced her to me but she more or less just wanted to be left alone. I even went over and said hello and told her if she want to join us she was welcomed, but she declined...which was fine...at she she was asked.

But the third one???? PLEASE...all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

Oh well at least it was interesting to say the least.....

Yes I sometimes wonder too, but then it takes all types and some just want to wear the clothes, and not be fem. But like you I can't understand it though.

Maybe....... just maybe they don't care if they pass? I sure don't. And maybe you shouldn't care is they do or don't either? Hmmmmm?

It's often a test for us to see just how accepting we are of others as well, no?:)

If we can't accept other CD's who have, for example, facial hair, how can we expect cisgendered folk to accept us?

People should be free to dress as it meets their needs. Inside the law, of course ;)

What difference would it make if I cut off my stash?:eek:

Going out dressed with a mustache sounds good in theory, but only there. The backlash may not hit you but someone else. Public acceptance/tolerance is an incremental thing.

But wait! Maybe you could have had a bad night. Maybe, they could have looked at you and thought The Same Things? See, The Knife can cut both ways.

Peace and Love, Joanie

Come on guys. Someone with a mustache wants to wear a dress? And we won't let him? Or think maybe he should stay home? Everyone of you knows this is wrong. Sure it looks weird. SO? Now we can't look weird?

I'm sorry that CDs get a bum rap from some people, but from US?

Auntie Stephenie

You all missed my point here...

The question was asked "tounge in check" of the person who was dressed wearing a mustache....as perhaps overstating the obvious????

He/she was dressed and walking around and we all say to ourselves "do we pass"...and oviously someone dressed and wearing a moustache probably wouldn't "pass"....

I simple sat there looked at that person dressed in female clothing and thinking to myself..."hope he's not trying ro pass" nothing more nothing less. If he/she was happy then more power to him.

It just struck me funny so I thought I'd through it out there to see if any others would think it's to be just a bit "odd" and perhpas get a chuckle...

Had nothing to do with me....other than the fact I saw it...that's all girls...No biggie here...

OK sweetie, I got it.

To me, this is not an insignificant issue, so please forgive me for being so wordy. Before I weigh in, let me hasten to make a few points clear:

• I have no interest in telling anyone what they can or can't look like or wear or where they can go.
• I started going out before I had learned how to put together a decent look, so I'm not about to start passing judgment or throwing any stones.
• Once again, I don't think it's constructive to place undue emphasis on actually passing. If you can, fine; if you can't, it doesn't matter.

Okay, so that said, based on my observations and personal experiences, I believe these things about the importance of appearance and crossdressing skills:

• Like it or not, most people don't respond well to unkempt appearances or inept syle. Obviously everyone's threshold is different, but to me there is a sort of minimum standard -- basic makeup skills, well-kept hair, some fashion sense, etc. This isn't a matter of principle, just practical common sense.
• I am utterly convinced that my own ineptness with my appearance and expression early in my CDing career significantly hampered my efforts to make friends and be accepted, and conversely, that the level of competence that I have since achieved, limited though it is, has made a pretty big difference. Moreover, I have personally witnessed both ends of the spectrum in people I've known, so I'm not just judging based on me.

As for people who wish to push the envelope of gender expression and gender bending, I think:

• More power to you.
• If you have the confidence and personality to pull it off, I think quite a few people will respond favorably, especially as they get to know you ...
• ... but for the majority, your mixed signals constitute yet another barrier to understanding and acceptance that you must overcome. That's not necessarily an inherently bad thing, it just is what it is.
• I want to believe that the more people are exposed to this sort of thing -- in a positive way -- the better off we'll all be. Time will tell.
• For the sake of full disclosure, I am forced to admit that personally, some forms of expression make more sense to me than others. I totally get (or at least I think I do) someone who wishes to express femininity without attempting total female emulation. Not only do I get it, I think it can be kinda cool when done with style and panache. There's lots of room for variations on that theme without exceeding my comfort zone. But I gotta tell ya, I just don't get a bearded guy in a dress. It makes no sense to me and honestly, I find it a bit off-putting. But you know what? I don't have to live with the guy, or even hang out with him, so what do I care?

Well chalk this one up as one of my screwed up threads....

I guess my thoughts in writing this was that I'm out trying to look somewwhat "normal" after all dressing enfemme is what most would consider "normal" I've even had on one occassion refer to me as a "Drag Queen" which I don't think I even approach that other than the fact I was dressed "enfemme"...

My whole point her is again someone dressed "enfemmed" wearing a moustache...obviously he wasn't caring whether he passed or not...or at least I assume he didn't care so therefore he simply was out doing his own thing andNOT caring one bit what others thought about him....a bit odd??? to me yes since I try very hard to improve my looks so I can at least blend in and look somewhat "normal". Am I being judgemental probably but then again we're all judgemental to some point whether we're dressed or not ...human nature by itself makes us all judgemental at times....

Have I raised a few of you about posting this???? It seems so...not my intention and I now realize that in my original post here it didn't read correctly...and it was easy for you all to think I was referring to something here that I wasn't...it was simply seeing differet people out there dressing to what they felt was appropriote for being "femme" however, a moustache isn't something that will help one to blend in....but to each his own....and one vote yeah for freedom of expression....

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

Well chalk this one up as one of my screwed up threads....Have I raised a few of you about posting this???? It seems so...

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If you're referring to my post, hey, if you read it closely you'll see that not only was I not dissing you, I was actually agreeing with you on some points. On a couple of others, not so much maybe, but I wasn't in the least disturbed by what you said. Most of us may take a stand on principle about some things, but truth be known, I imagine we're all secretly critiquing each other when we're out and about. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

NOT!!!!!

But the third one???? PLEASE...all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

Oh well at least it was interesting to say the least.....

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sherry...this is the statement that made me look at your post and say how dare she say that

that's what you said...

and by the way, did you ever consider that he has ALL THE SAME FEELINGS as you do, and dresses for all the same reasons, but for some reason cannot shave his mustache??? say for instance, his wife loves it? and lets him dress freely as long as he doesnt shave it???

in fact, i know someone in that exact situation..he just got married, and he has a full beard, and his wife LOVES his beard...but she is so accepting that she married him and then had a second ceremony and party with him in full brides regalia. and a beard

You can call that odd, not caring, tongue in cheek, or good for a chuckle..but i dont

then you come back and say that's not what you really meant and clarified it by adding..

"My whole point her is again someone dressed "enfemmed" wearing a moustache...obviously he wasn't caring whether he passed or not...or at least I assume he didn't care so therefore he simply was out doing his own thing andNOT caring one bit what others thought about him....a bit odd???"

pretty much clarifying that you are putting her down for facial hair.
when you laugh AT people for being different, you are putting them down..
i have been laughed at...it sucks

Point well taken Kaitlyn...

and I'm not going to debate it ...no need to no point to it...there are reasons that some people can't do this or that...so be it...

I guess maybe since this forum posts so many topics about trying to blend in to be passable trying to achieve that look that my mind set has goten programed that I try to look as passable as I can and do what I can to achieve a level that I know wI'll never reach but I try to get to that level as best as I can....just my personal "programming" as far as being "enfemmed"...but like I say that's just me...

If someone wants to go out and dress enfemme and have this moustache below his nose that's his business...will I look at that as being out of the norm??? Yeah probably...free expression??? Yeah...anything else I guess is JMHO and YMMV....

Sherri said..

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I imagine we're all secretly critiquing each other when we're out and about.

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If we're not then we're not human....either male or female for that matter...that's flat out human nature...

Interestingly enough, I'm very much about people being themselves and not caring what others think, but then I myself saw a transgendered individual working as a cashier at a grocery store near me, and I thought to myself Wow! they really can't pass, and how on earth could they go out of the house looking like that?....... then it dawned on me, I was being just as judgemental as others that I often chasitize in real life..... goes to show, we all carry our own assumptions, and stereotypes, and it takes a strong person to realize it, and consciously question there own beliefs....

I wasn't the mustache in the story, but might as well have been--that's what I do. Yes, it is pretty crazy. Nonetheless, most people I encounter are pleasant, typically disinterested, often amused. A few play along. I don't want to cause any distress, although I must have done so occasionally.

I don't think that I have generated a harsher atmosphere or a backlash against other CDs or TGs. People already have plenty of opportunity to get offended by television TVs, and laugh along with the crowd at Cinema CDs. I think that exposure reduces surprise and offense.

I hear all of us here admiring those who pass or come close, and I do as well. No surprise that pretty girls are more fun to look at than ugly ones. Meanwhile I have fun with pretty clothes, and try to skirt trouble. [Hmmm... I wonder what I meant by that?]

I got it too. So many of us are too touchy here, LOL LOL

Michelle said...

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So many of us are too touchy here, LOL LOL

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But do we really get it or are we simply that...too touchy to the fact that we all know that we are open to criticisms for our dressing, our desire to want to be accepted for what we want to do and simple express our female side....

In a perfect world that would be fine but we don't live in a perfect world...never have and I seriously doubt we ever will....but when we do step out into the real world the better we do look the better chance we'll have at being taken seriously by more people with whome we come into contact with...

But what I didn't tell you all is this....based on what this person did leads to the possibility that he wasn't infact a CDer...like you and I are...but perhaps just someone who thought he might spoof a Cder or TG....and I say that for this reason.

I was sitting at the bar closest to the front door infact I could see the front door very easily and he walked in came down my side of the bar stopped at the end of the bar and stood there for a few moments....moved along the bar toward the rear of the room walked into the next room. Didn't sit down didn't order a drink. After that I didn't see him again that evening....he also didn't have any make up on. I moved around somewhat in the club area so it wasn't if he could have been there and we didn't see each other. What he might have been doing and it's purely speculation on my part is this. He might have thought it was a "cool idea" to dress up as a "woman" while being obviously a male, thus the moustache and walk into a gay bar and walk around and see what response,comments, etc he'd get from the "queer folks"...and then walk out having gotten his chuckles...

Like I said I only saw him for less than 5 minutes and never saw him again...and he definately wasn't made up other than simply having a wig on a long dress and more or elss that was it...I couldn't even tell you if he was wearing women's shoes...but I know he never sat down in the main room of the club....or I would have been able to see him there....

Who knows...

Well I admit that I'm certainly too touchy sometimes!!! :doh:
So thats a point well taken too!

..but i call it as i see it, and i respect that others do too...
I just hope that folks realize that the transphobia that causes all of us so many problems can be in us too. How can we demand to be accepted by others as (insert your own definition of transness) if we don't accept all the folks out there?

i have recoiled at the sight of some very strange looking trans folk....but i know they are just people that are coping with some very difficult issues..

I get what others are saying, but I don't think an utopian all or nothing approach to acceptance is doable. And I say acceptance because that's what I would like to see. Tolerance tends to be a temporary affair. The thing is, the general public's remaining nonacceptance may not be our fault, but it is our problem. Right or wrong, the burden of proof is upon us.

I was thinking as I read the start of this thread. Why are we so critical when someone doesn't fit into our own image of what they should when we ourselves don';t conform to the socalled norm. I mean, yes, one would think that a mustache and a dress don't really go togather but maybe that is his thing. We all can not be as lovely as some of the girls on here. I for one know that I could not pass in public and therefore would not ventrue out. Or at least not anywhere local. Be kind, and accept that which you ask others to accept about you.

Isn't that what girls do, (us girls too) Critique eachother. I can take constructive critism,, what I hate to hear is total negative put downs. Here is how I look at this post. Some men just like the clothes that is fine however when they go out with obvious maleness, people in general will see exactly what the person was intending, a man in a dress and most people will think, Wierd. and probably be somewhat put off but may not show it. I think this is where we all have our fears of being out in public.

Then here is what I like to do (or want to do) I want to blend in with other women or for that matter other crossdressers. I do not want to stand out. I want to hide as many of my male tell tale signs as possible. However if I was approached I would admit that I am really male. But that I like to project myself as being a female. (which is what I believe most of us want when we go out)

IMHO I think if we could all just get over our fears (me included) and go out how we want, sooner or later (hopefully sooner) we will be accepted (hopefully in my lifetime) weather or not we try to pass or just blend in. For me still I want to blend as best I can so I would never have facial hair. But to each his or her own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

But the third one???? PLEASE...all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

Oh well at least it was interesting to say the least.....

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A man Dressed up in woman clothing, with a moustache! :Angry3:

Do you not think that what this site is about, I.e. the right for all of us to dress as we wish, over dress as women? Sadly all you have done here is judge this person in the same narrow minded manner you are no doubt judged yourself by other "ie the normal people of this world!"

how can the world ever change, if you can think what you (we) do, is more acceptable, that someone that wishes to dress in female clothes, yet still wishes to keep his own masculine Identity. is this guy any different from butterfly bill, or Jiveturkeyon Rye.

The whole point of this site, surely is to accept we all have the desire to wear female sytle clothing, and not about how good we look in it.

I think you need to relook at what you've posted here, and consider if you can not accpet this guys way off dressing, why should others accept yours!!!

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Originally Posted by Tracy_Victoria

A man Dressed up in woman clothing, with a moustache! :Angry3:

Do you not think that what this site is about, I.e. the right for all of us to dress as we wish, over dress as women? Sadly all you have done here is judge this person in the same narrow minded manner you are no doubt judged yourself by other "ie the normal people of this world!"

how can the world ever change, if you can think what you (we) do, is more acceptable, that someone that wishes to dress in female clothes, yet still wishes to keep his own masculine Identity. is this guy any different from butterfly bill, or Jiveturkeyon Rye.

The whole point of this site, surely is to accept we all have the desire to wear female sytle clothing, and not about how good we look in it.

I think you need to relook at what you've posted here, and consider if you can not accpet this guys way off dressing, why should others accept yours!!!

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However, I agree ENTIRELY that that is the GOAL we should ALL be reaching for within ourselves!:thumbsup:

I simply HATE, HATE!:Angry3: Especially, when I feel it within ME!:doh:

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I think you need to relook at what you've posted here, and consider if you can not accpet this guys way off dressing, why should others accept yours!!!

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Because personally before I walk out the door dressed I realize that there will be some who who will not accept me regardless of how well I dress or not...and to those who present this opinion I simple say to them "I don't care (i.e. give a rat's a$$) to what they think simply because I am going to go out and do what I want to do and not be governed by other's points of views opinions or whatever...I'll decide what is best for me and not what others think is best for me...

I'll try and present myself as best as I can as feminine as possible abet I know I'll never be truly convincing...but everyone will see that I A) take pride in my appearence B) do so with style and class...beyond that they can kiss my white Irish *** if they don't like it...

If they accept me that's fine and if they don't simply don't have anything to do with me and that's fine as well...I've spent an adult life being involved in controversy both public as well as private and at times very intense so I've developed a rather thick skin and to some a severe chip on my shoulder...but I've also had to stand up for what sometimes some felt wasn't "right"...just as most don't think dressing isn't right...so I will defend anyone's right to to dress any way they want....but will I not look at people in different ways and be approving or not approving??? Sure...jut like some here think I'm wrong to express my views....I respect the fact that your free to feel that way and sI would much prefer and respect each and everyone of you for being open and honest....but it will not change the way I view other's who dress...I will respect those who try to look the best they can...those who impact on us negitively ..we'll I hope their happy and I wish them well...but am I going to be approving??? Ah, don't think so...that's just me...love me or hate me that's their choice and they are free to make that...that's their right and I respect that...

Interesting thread. I am on the side of let others be themselves however they want to dress and act. That does not mean I want to be personally involved with that other person. I will and do seek out others similar to myself with enough differences to keep it all interesting.

I totally disagree that a guy in a dress with a mustache is going to bring down the world on all of us poor CDers (OK maybe not the world, but mar our reputation and how people may view us). I actually think just the opposite. Since most people feel comfortable around the center of things, issues and life, and are not out there to make a statement or actively join a cause, we need those at the extreme ends of the spectrum, including if they are on the other side of center than we are. Why? It actually helps broaden the knowledge and experience of that very large center group. With knowledge comes better understanding, and with better understanding comes more acceptance of the others viewpoint.

A personal experience from being fortunate enough to live in the San Francisco area: I have seen several men (unfortunately no women yet) who like to walk around basically nude in public. They walk in Pride parades, around college campuses, and even into bars and small stores and coffee shops. Yes, it is strange experience to see someone do that. I wouldn't do that. In a favorite wine bar of mine, there was one man that came in wearing shoes, a hat and nothing else. Yeah, it was kinda gross. He not only came in, but stayed there at the bar for a while with a drink. Everyone looked at him and talked among themselves and then just ignored him. Being me and curious as always, I went up and talked with to him. He was OK actually (to talk with), I asked him why, and he said because he liked to do it. Gee, that sounds like about 80% of the people here (20% for the TS's +/-), including myself.

Do I think that he and others like him gave us, the rest of the human race and citizens, and the non-citizens too, a bad name? No, not at all. He made me, a CD, look exceptionally well that night dressed in my presentable way and probably opened more doors for me than I could ever do.

So, yes Stephanie, we all can defend the rights of others and we all can have our own opinions about it, like you and I. However, I just think that the person you saw did not hurt you nor your cause (our cause too) in any way, and should be given a lot more slack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

Because personally before I walk out the door dressed I realize that there will be some who who will not accept me regardless of how well I dress or not...

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Maybe that guy thought the same?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

I'll try and present myself as best as I can as feminine as possible abet I know I'll never be truly convincing...but everyone will see that I A) take pride in my appearence B) do so with style and class...beyond that they can kiss my white Irish *** if they don't like it...

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Maybe he thought the very same thing?


What I'm trying to say Sherry, is that no matter how good, or bad, or how weird or stupid some one looks, is it not the case that we should respect that desire to be different, over look down on them. but for views like these, it would be much easier for all the people in the world, be they fat, thin, short or tall, black or white, and even crossdressers with a moustache!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

but am I going to be approving??? Ah, don't think so...that's just me...love me or hate me that's their choice and they are free to make that...that's their right and I respect that...

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Sadly a lot a people do feel like that, about you, me, crossdressers, gay's race, size, smoking, etc!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

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yeah, i don't care all that much if someone is passable, but a mustache, or any kind of facial hair/sideburns just defeats the purpose.

This thread annoys me... that is all :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

NOT!!!!!

I was out at the club recently and there were several CDers there who were dressed beside myself...

The first one was all dressed up and the clothes were OK but the face wasn't working at all. The guy who I was talking to even made the comment that this one's make up was way off...just looked like a guy with make up on.

A second one looked really good and it was a bit difficult to decide. One problem with ehr was it really looked like she was bummed out...I saw that and even the bartender saw it as well and went up to her and tried to introduced her to me but she more or less just wanted to be left alone. I even went over and said hello and told her if she want to join us she was welcomed, but she declined...which was fine...at she she was asked.

But the third one???? PLEASE...all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

Oh well at least it was interesting to say the least.....

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What i hate is other Tgirls putting other girls down, a lot of them try there best with what they have and some are less fortunate than ourselves, and some feel comfortable in other ways, we get judged enough as it is!!
Reach out to a fellow Tgirl and get to know them and maybe give them a few tips or two and then who knows you may find a new friend, but talking about them behind there backs is not nice!

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Originally Posted by Tracy_Victoria

A man Dressed up in woman clothing, with a moustache! :Angry3:

Do you not think that what this site is about, I.e. the right for all of us to dress as we wish, over dress as women? Sadly all you have done here is judge this person in the same narrow minded manner you are no doubt judged yourself by other "ie the normal people of this world!"

how can the world ever change, if you can think what you (we) do, is more acceptable, that someone that wishes to dress in female clothes, yet still wishes to keep his own masculine Identity. is this guy any different from butterfly bill, or Jiveturkeyon Rye.

The whole point of this site, surely is to accept we all have the desire to wear female sytle clothing, and not about how good we look in it.

I think you need to relook at what you've posted here, and consider if you can not accpet this guys way off dressing, why should others accept yours!!!

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I couldn't have said it better myself.
I can't believe that that the OP even posted such a remark after all the acceptance threads that come up on these boards regularly...Non-acceptance has to be the number one bitch on this site.

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Originally Posted by dragdoll

yeah, i don't care all that much if someone is passable, but a mustache, or any kind of facial hair/sideburns just defeats the purpose.

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The purpose being? Your idea of how someone should look?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sherry-Stephanie

But the third one???? PLEASE...all dressed up walking around even with the moustache. I just shook my head and said no wonder we have trouble getting accepted...what was he thinking?????

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Especially when all the other ducks in the same pond can do is point and :heehee:

:brolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dragdoll

yeah, i don't care all that much if someone is passable, but a mustache, or any kind of facial hair/sideburns just defeats the purpose.

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The purpose of what?????

Last time I checked the dictionary, the basic muddy water definition of a "cross dresser" is someone who wears the CLOTHES of the opposite sex.

I don't ever remember seeing anything about breasts, hair, makeup, or lack of certain body hair being a requirement.

He obviously has brass balls and a I don't give a Frack attitude to be out in a dress and moustache.

[SIZE="3"]And isn't attitude 99.95% of passing anyway??[/SIZE] :lol2:
Or so I have read "somewhere" ?? :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by dragdoll

yeah, i don't care all that much if someone is passable, but a mustache, or any kind of facial hair/sideburns just defeats the purpose.

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For some insight. Until recently, I was dressing with a moustache. I choose to be closeted because of that. If I go out, I don't want to stand out. But, there are many on this board that go out with facial hair. Some are partial dressers and some are full dressers. The main point if to do what makes you happy and enjoy life being who you are. If you look at it that way, acceptance of anyone comes so much easier.

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Originally Posted by SamanthaM

[SIZE=3]And isn't attitude 99.95% of passing anyway??[/SIZE] :lol2:

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No, you didn't! :heehee:

This thread is now done .. for the reason that the subject matter has been covered...