How do we know when we pass?

There're a lot of threads about passing, what it means, whether it's important to us, how to pass, whether or not we should use the word "pass" due to its implications, etc. I just haven't seen a recent thread about how you know when/if you're passing.

Msginaadoll said in a recent thread that it's hard to know when you're passing (being taken for the gender you're presenting as), and easier to know when you're not. People may say ma'am out of respect, whether or not they think you're a woman. If they call you sir, well, there's a sign you're not passing.

So, how do we differentiate between respect and being viewed as women? Or, whether the double-takes are because we're looking hot or someone's trying to read whether we're GGs? What about the manner we're communicated with?

I was out shopping for groceries (I <3 Wegmans) with my fiancee. At least one person thought I was female-- the clerk I had to convince my ID was really me when we were carded. Earlier, though, the butcher had said "what can I get you guys?" Do GGs out together get called "guys?" Prolly not.

I'm curious, what do you think are the signs or signals that you're not passing?

well if they smile you're usually passing enough. and after awhile, and it's got to mean diferent things to say a cd, than it does for a tg. apples and oranges?

I don't think you will ever know if you pass, just because nobody stares or says anything to you doesn't mean they haven't made you.
Many people are too polite to alert you that they know. It's more likely that you'll know when you haven't passed.
Sam.

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I know I've passed when they start shoveling dirt on my coffin!

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Originally Posted by sempervirens

There're a lot of threads about passing, what it means, whether it's important to us, how to pass, whether or not we should use the word "pass" due to its implications, etc. I just haven't seen a recent thread about how you know when/if you're passing.

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Actually if you read 'em carefully there is a lot about that out there. But the basic truth is that you do not know when you pass. SO, don't worry and enjoy yourself !

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Originally Posted by sempervirens

Msginaadoll said in a recent thread that it's hard to know when you're passing (being taken for the gender you're presenting as), and easier to know when you're not. People may say ma'am out of respect, whether or not they think you're a woman. If they call you sir, well, there's a sign you're not passing.

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there are many signs you are not passing.... very few that you are.

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Originally Posted by sempervirens

I was out shopping for groceries (I <3 Wegmans) with my fiancee. At least one person thought I was female-- the clerk I had to convince my ID was really me when we were carded. Earlier, though, the butcher had said "what can I get you guys?" Do GGs out together get called "guys?" Prolly not.

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In my experience many people, especially servers, tend to call a table or group of people, "guys". I do not think they mean any gender ID by it. Yes, girls will often say to a group of other girls "guys, let's ....." In fact, probably more often than "girl's let's....". GG's do not share CD's habit of always id'ing themselves by gender.

i feel passing is all about the moment...
i have passed at times and at other times i have shocked...lol

it's all fun

As long as I am not having people laugh and point out "Look at the guy in the dress" I feel that I am passing enough. That doesn't mean everyone thinks I am a girl but there is enough doubt in their mind that they are not going to embarrass themselves by pointing me out. In my mind these days that is passing

The taller you are, the larger your face, shoulders, hands, and feet and the deeper your voice, the more male gender cues you will emit, no matter how well you look or carry yourself. But not everyone will read them. People have differing levels of gender radar sensitivity, independent of how well you present.

Also, my SO and I have noticed that she passes better when I am not around. People make subconscious comparisons when they see us together. This is why I do my best to wear higher heels when we are together dressed, while she keeps to 2" heels, so at least we are close to the same height.

As the others have said, the importance is how you are accepted and treated while dressed. Say you begin to go to a coffee shop regularly and you befriend another regular patron. Once you begin to talk at length, it is likely you will be read, unless you have a small stature and you've perfected your voice pitch. But if the person you've befriended accepts that you are feminine and not a guy in a dress, then you've been successful in your presentation?

No one has EVER questioned me about my gender or sexual persuasion!:eek:

Of course, I'm a guy, and only go out dressed as one!:brolleyes:

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Originally Posted by sempervirens

I was out shopping for groceries (I <3 Wegmans) with my fiancee. At least one person thought I was female-- the clerk I had to convince my ID was really me when we were carded. Earlier, though, the butcher had said "what can I get you guys?" Do GGs out together get called "guys?" Prolly not.

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My mom does not like it when (everybody) expecaiouly girls use the (Hay guys.....) Line, she would say "WE ARE NOT "GUYS" HERE"!!!!! she hates it very much. Yes Girls use the (guys) line tother girls . It is just an expresstion like (for our southern girls out there) "How are ya all doing today" or "good day" how do you know the other person is haveing a good day or a bad one. So yes they do use it.

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Originally Posted by sempervirens

I'm curious, what do you think are the signs or signals that you're not passing?

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I am not sure what it would be. If I make people laugh then at least I made them happier then they were before and maybe one day they will look back at what they did and fill a little bad for that. I really could care less if I pass or weather I make people laugh or read me .It took me some time to get to the place where I was not worried about my shoulders or my size or my look.

Passing is a big step for a lot of girls to get to before they even go out of doors , for me it was getting eveything together like wig breast froms etc. Then after I went out to the mall for my first outting makeover (by myself) I was hooked and about 1 year later can to realise that I don't need to pass cuz I like who I am and no ned to (be what others think I should be) . Like I said it took me about a year to get there.

As I have said before ("I love being a Crossdresser"):daydreaming::heehee::D:D:D

For me I knew I passed when a teen aged black girl who was with her parents starred at my wife and Melanie for a long time and later asked if we were sisters. Of course she may have needed glasses.

if you go out and you act the part then you pass. if you dont pass and noone says anything, i call that a pass too. there has been several times i saw a girl that didnt look quite right but she got the benifit of the dought. so go out and pass for yourself that should be enough.:brolleyes:

Sometimes GG's in groups get called "guys" like "so whaqt can I get you guys?" It is not a rude thing, just a knee-jerk response even if there is no mistaking they are GG's. OR if it is a mix of men and women the group as a whole gets called "guys", just probably slangish. Nothing more.

For me, when I am out with my wife (seldom) we always seem to get called "ladies", even if I am making little effort to try to look femme. I know that contradicts others' experiences.

Yes there are tons of threads about "passing", but you kind of have to get to where you don't obsess about it. Sure I think about it a lot but really, if I get called "ma'am", it feels good but it doesn't make my day, or if I get called "sir" it bothers me a bit but doesn't ruin my day.

I think the only time to really worry about this "passing" is if you are trying to go stealth, like if that is even an option in the first place. For someone like me it might be possible, but would cost more in surgeries than I could ever afford.

The best thing to do is to present as tasteful as possible. I mean even if you are read, it isn't going to make a scene as much as if say, you try to go out dressed like Britney Spears (unless you really have the youth and figure to pull it off).

I know from experience that having to bust ass to be anywhere near passable does suck, it's hard and don't always work, but being born GM's and having a lot of disadvantages, we can't beat ourselves up. If we had great female bodies and somehow let it go to waste (like if a marathon runner gained 150 pounds by eating too much junk food) then we could feel guilty but do the best you can with what you have. What else CAN you do?

Just think, a lot of GG's out there wish THEY looked perfect too.

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Originally Posted by Nicole Erin

Sometimes GG's in groups get called "guys" like "so whaqt can I get you guys?" It is not a rude thing, just a knee-jerk response even if there is no mistaking they are GG's. OR if it is a mix of men and women the group as a whole gets called "guys", just probably slangish. Nothing more.

For me, when I am out with my wife (seldom) we always seem to get called "ladies", even if I am making little effort to try to look femme. I know that contradicts others' experiences.

Yes there are tons of threads about "passing", but you kind of have to get to where you don't obsess about it. Sure I think about it a lot but really, if I get called "ma'am", it feels good but it doesn't make my day, or if I get called "sir" it bothers me a bit but doesn't ruin my day.

I think the only time to really worry about this "passing" is if you are trying to go stealth, like if that is even an option in the first place. For someone like me it might be possible, but would cost more in surgeries than I could ever afford.

The best thing to do is to present as tasteful as possible. I mean even if you are read, it isn't going to make a scene as much as if say, you try to go out dressed like Britney Spears (unless you really have the youth and figure to pull it off).

I know from experience that having to bust ass to be anywhere near passable does suck, it's hard and don't always work, but being born GM's and having a lot of disadvantages, we can't beat ourselves up. If we had great female bodies and somehow let it go to waste (like if a marathon runner gained 150 pounds by eating too much junk food) then we could feel guilty but do the best you can with what you have. What else CAN you do?

Just think, a lot of GG's out there wish THEY looked perfect too.

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There are a ton of these passing threads....... I am stayin out of this one :battingeyelashes:

The 'guys' comment is not gender specific so the butcher may not have 'read' you. The only sure fire way I know about is to have someone discover your true gender and react with true surprise. This happened to me at a halloween party two years ago when I was asked for ID at the door. The bouncer was honestly surprised and had to check with me. He was really impressed. Otherwise, we probably just blend in most of the time. I think the key to being happy is not to worry about being read, just do you best and take the attitude that you are CDing and if someone notices, good for them.

I think you know when you pass, when you stand in a long line of women going to the ladies room, and they don't have a clue, and afterwood, at the sinks washing your hands, fixing your lipstick, and not getting any stares in the mirror.

Hey, if the general crowd is not pointing, making loud comments or yelling at me......in my book I'm passing!

I guess my question would be; passing to whom - others or yourself?

If it's others you're concerned with (and honestly, why should you be?), then I would say that the lack of screaming torch-wielding, pitchfork-carrying villagers would be a good clue. :) Also, the lack of snickering, pointing, mouths being agape, and the obligatory, "Holy crap - that's a guy!" would also tell you that you were not read.

Other than the villagers (except for that one time), I have experienced all of the above. How did it affect me? Not a bit. On the subject of passing, I have to rely on others. Many people have told me that I am feminine, small, cute, pretty and the like. They say that I do pass. Myself, I don't think so. I feel that I'm in the two-bagger range. Once again, does that affect me? Not a bit. You see, I pass my own test - do I feel good when out and about dressed as a woman. To that I have to give a hearty, Sarah Palin-like "You betcha!"

Kathi

You won't know if you pass, or simply blend in to the crowd. However, you will somtimes know if you don't. Make scence?

I wish I could s/passing//g from reality. I think people worry to much about it, and I try not to think about it much, because as Admiral Ackbar says: "It's a trap."

Veronica Rogers
Yes, made a sed/vim search and replace reference...I'm a nerd.

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

I know I've passed when they start shoveling dirt on my coffin!

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You puck hog:heehee:

maybe this dont qualfy but i was in a check out line. there was a little boy about two yrs old and he looked me smiled the biggest smile. i think he thought was a grandma. it sure made my day.

sue ellan

life is like a roll of tp. the closer to the end the faster it goes.

I have mentioned it before that I believe passing is nothing more than blending in. I certainly don't try to fool anybody into thinking I'm a female but I do try to emulate the ones I observe when I'm out and about. My voice is a dead giveaway to my masculinity and I've gotten some double takes from people whan they hear me speak. I have been told by many of my friends (guys and gals) that I'm passable because of my ability to blend in.

I don't put a lot of emphasis on passing, if I do, great! If I don't, so what? I'm a guy who enjoys wearing women's clothes, accessories, and makeup. Most people don't have a problem with it, and those who do, it's their hang up and not mine. :2c:

Well, it's great if we do but I don't how it really matters all that much myself.:)

"Passing" is so difficult to define and is somewhat subjective. IMHO, being accepted as the person that you are portraying is a better gauge.
As to the butcher saying "you guys", I would not worry about it. My two daughters and many other people use that expression regardless of the gender that they are addressing.

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc). Male and female bodies have thousands and thousands of subtle differences that everyone subconsciously just 'gets'. If someone is calling you a woman or 'maaming' you, likely it's actually out of respecting CDs/TVs, not that they actually are thinking you're GG. Not that such a thing is bad. I think acceptance is greatly needed, but don't confuse someone using specific gender references in an effort to respect their lifestyle from someone thinking they're a woman. My 2 cents...

P.S. If you are transitioning, it is possible to pass, absolutely, but it matters in terms of age, genetics, amount of time on HRT, surgery, etc. Regardless, it IS possible, and I've seen it plenty of times. Most of the subtle difference are corrected when people make that much of an effort, since it requires that much effort to be done.

I agree I don't think we ever know if we really pass, but who cares we are haveing fun,

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Originally Posted by jenna_woods

I agree I don't think we ever know if we really pass, but who cares we are haveing fun,

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And, that is a fantastic attitude. Accept yourself! Have fun! It doesn't matter what people think, and you'll find out that far more people will respect you when you just own up to what you are, without flinching and apologizing for it, one bit.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc). Male and female bodies have thousands and thousands of subtle differences that everyone subconsciously just 'gets'. If someone is calling you a woman or 'maaming' you, likely it's actually out of respecting CDs/TVs, not that they actually are thinking you're GG. Not that such a thing is bad. I think acceptance is greatly needed, but don't confuse someone using specific gender references in an effort to respect their lifestyle from someone thinking they're a woman. My 2 cents...

P.S. If you are transitioning, it is possible to pass, absolutely, but it matters in terms of age, genetics, amount of time on HRT, surgery, etc. Regardless, it IS possible, and I've seen it plenty of times. Most of the subtle difference are corrected when people make that much of an effort, since it requires that much effort to be done.

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I agree with you in many ways. Since I started RLE, I always get "Ma'am" or "Miss" or "Young lady". But sometimes there is a greater sense of acceptance that is palpable. A sense of ease at which GGs are with each other and you start to get glimmers of that and it's wonderful...then you know...

Not attracting attention is what I call level 1 passing.

Having a young lady check you out in the coffee shop line and quickly return to her bored expression when she realizes that you're a couple age-groups above her is level 2 passing. Being addressed as "ladies" when when with GG's in a restaurant also rates a 2, in my book.

If you chat with a woman for a bit, and she says "Excuse me, you are a woman, right?", that's level 3 passing. Being referred to as "she" and "her" at the checkout stand or a sales situation is also level 3, in my book.

On a couple of occasions, I've chatted with women, and if they act shocked or surprised when you disclose that you're trans, that's level 4 passing, the black belt.

However, if you're in the ladies' room washing your hands and there's a long line behind you, and as you leave someone says "You know, I don't think that was a real girl..." You go straight back to level zero, baby!

(guilty of all of the above situations)

-- Diane

You get a C- or better until you are in Grad school and then its a B silly!

You rarely really know if you are passing. You only know when you are not passing.

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Originally Posted by Samantha Kelsey

I don't think you will ever know if you pass, just because nobody stares or says anything to you doesn't mean they haven't made you

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Originally Posted by ReineD

People have differing levels of gender radar sensitivity, independent of how well you present.

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I agree with both of these quotes. It's really difficult to truly know for sure what another person was really thinking to themselves about you.

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Originally Posted by CharleneM

I think you know when you pass, when you stand in a long line of women going to the ladies room, and they don't have a clue, and afterwood, at the sinks washing your hands, fixing your lipstick, and not getting any stares in the mirror.

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This has actually happened to me at a Chevy's. I was scared stiff standing in line but later washing my hands at the sink I was thinking crazy thoughts about how I really might be passing after all. :)

I know i passed when the report card came in :D

[SIZE="2"]When its third down and ten! I would guess, when we here a wolf whistle, or a car toots horn as they pass by, or when no one seems to notice, or when someone says she, or ma'm.[/SIZE]

I "knew" that I was "passing" when my nail tech asked me if I would be cooking Thanksgiving dinner!

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Originally Posted by dilane

Not attracting attention is what I call level 1 passing.

Having a young lady check you out in the coffee shop line and quickly return to her bored expression when she realizes that you're a couple age-groups above her is level 2 passing. Being addressed as "ladies" when when with GG's in a restaurant also rates a 2, in my book.

If you chat with a woman for a bit, and she says "Excuse me, you are a woman, right?", that's level 3 passing. Being referred to as "she" and "her" at the checkout stand or a sales situation is also level 3, in my book.

On a couple of occasions, I've chatted with women, and if they act shocked or surprised when you disclose that you're trans, that's level 4 passing, the black belt.

However, if you're in the ladies' room washing your hands and there's a long line behind you, and as you leave someone says "You know, I don't think that was a real girl..." You go straight back to level zero, baby!

(guilty of all of the above situations)

-- Diane

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I think Dilane captures the essence of passing...:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc).

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There are examples of non-transitioning girls who pass well on this very site. I've been known to pass in public, and there are prettier girls here than me!

I went shopping at the mall yesterday. School must still be out in that town because the mall was full of teenagers. As I was walking to another store I passed a group of three or four high school girls that were just hanging out. I smiled at them and one or two of them smiled back and then they went on with their conversation. That is my definition of passing. Leanne

I hate that P word more than any word! I have come to realize that if someone worries about the P word they have already failed. They get an F.

I know that for me there is a great anxiety if I pass or not. I probably don't pass very well. But what should be the point is that there should come a time when we don't care if someone makes us. We just enjoy being who we are and whether we pass or not should not be a measurement of how happy we are with ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Katesback

I hate that P word more than any word! I have come to realize that if someone worries about the P word they have already failed. They get an F.

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In a previous thread you mentioned that you were getting FFS. You said that you already looked good,and fit it, but people could still tell and that after your FFS they probably wouldn't be able to. I take it that what you mean is that before you had FFS you may or may not have (p word), but you didn't care one way or the other. But you still opted to have FFS. Maybe something that you didn't "worry" about, but obviously it was important for you that people "didn't" know. Wouldn't that be "worrying" about it in a sense?

Kelly

Thanks for all the replies, more than I expected :)

Well, I like to (try to?) pass when I'm out because it's easier, and because it's affirming to have the way I feel translate to how I'm perceived. Besides, I'm planning on going full-time when I start law school and I don't want to be known in law school as "that tranny." At this point I'd really like to be me and blend in.

I totally agree, the people we interact with are generally polite enough to treat us well, whether or not we've been clocked. It just feels impossible to know, because even if you hear rude comments 1% of the time and see honest surprise at an ID check 50% of the time, you still can't infer how often you're passing because not every time you get clocked will a comment be made. Never knowing is probably true... but it's also frustrating. I almost want to interview people who've clocked me to get a tally of what I can fix, or what I need to work around. I can just imagine interviewing some redneck who read me, lol. The cues ReineD was talking about seem right, and I appreciate your scale dilane :). Thank you for all of your stories. I know a lot of you have much, much more experience at this than I do.

PS: I'm on HRT and some of the CDs on here look way better and pass way better than I do. I'm sure some CDs pass flawlessly.

Good question Kelly!

I will say what I said to a friend who asked me why I was getting FFS. I said that even though I am well accepted in the general world I know that I had telling features that some could pick out which made me different to some. Getting FFS often erases those features and opens the door to many to walking out of that slightly different catagory.

I thought about all of it and since I had the monies to get the work done I decided to go for it. I can now say that if I could have gone back and done it all over again I would have had FFS before SRS. It made that much of a difference.

Katie

For me, one sure sign that I'm passing is when a man flirts with me, which I love in so many ways. I believe that most men would not willingly flirt with a transgendered girl. When it happens, I just smile at them and walk on.

Only one time did I have trouble. I went to a movie alone, and a few minutes after I sat down, I had a man come and sit right next to me in a fairly empty theater. I was nervous as he kept looking at me and smiling, trying to talk to me and move even closer. I just said in a polite voice that if he didn't move, I was going to complain to the theater manager. Luckily, that did the trick.

The next time I went there alone, I didn't wear such a short skirt.

Karen

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Originally Posted by Katesback

Good question Kelly!

I will say what I said to a friend who asked me why I was getting FFS. I said that even though I am well accepted in the general world I know that I had telling features that some could pick out which made me different to some. Getting FFS often erases those features and opens the door to many to walking out of that slightly different catagory.

I thought about all of it and since I had the monies to get the work done I decided to go for it. I can now say that if I could have gone back and done it all over again I would have had FFS before SRS. It made that much of a difference.

Katie

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Wouldn't attempting to pass be basically the same thing...Someone doing their best to "fit in"? Wouldn't it make quite a bit of difference in much the same way FFS made it so much of a difference for you? I know that not eveybody cares if they pass or not, but for those who wish to.

1. First, take a hard look at yourself in the mirror, if your reflection honestly looks like a female (not necessarily a hot chick) you've got a shot. If you're super tall and wear heels, your odds go way down. If you honestly think you've got the look down,

2. Take your act outside and see what happens to you. If nobody pays attention to you, you're passing...wearing sunglasses (on a sunny day outdoors) let's you study people's reactions without calling attention to yourself . If you're not getting any second glances or double-takes,

3. Try interacting with people in safe situations, like a cashier or a waitress. Perfecting a female voice takes hundreds of hours of practice and training, even now I can only do it it short spurts but if I stick to short phrases I can pull it off.

Remember that nobody fools all of the people all of the time, I haven't been clocked in a long time but it can be a devastating experience, so stick to safe places where you won't get your ass kicked if you cross the wrong person. As one of the other girls observed, teenage girls have amazing radar, if you can walk through a bevy of them at the mall without hearing any giggles or "oh my God, that's a guy" you're on your way.

Of course Kelly. My issue with the "P" word lies deep and also very basic. If you look up the word in the dictionary you will find a series of definitions and the one that really hits the mark is the definition that says something like "presenting something that is not true or accurate". Now I dont know about how you see it but I have never seen a trans person to be anything but what they are. I dont see cds or ts girls as presenting something that is not true.

I could go on and on but I have a feeling you are looking up the definition, there are better words like presentation and assimilation. I have no issues with these.

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Originally Posted by Katesback

Of course Kelly. My issue with the "P" word lies deep and also very basic. If you look up the word in the dictionary you will find a series of definitions and the one that really hits the mark is the definition that says something like "presenting something that is not true or accurate". Now I dont know about how you see it but I have never seen a trans person to be anything but what they are. I dont see cds or ts girls as presenting something that is not true.

I could go on and on but I have a feeling you are looking up the definition, there are better words like presentation and assimilation. I have no issues with these.

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Maybe if you use the word in the literal. I think that most of us agree that for the purpose of these type threads passing is just used more as generic term, a descriptive if you will. Passing as a woman to the casual observer.
Just the basic.

Kelly

For me passing used to be my main focus and I was always concerned, worried even. Over the years I've learned to not worry so much about passing, but to focus on being natural and dressing appropriately for the place, season and time of day.

I focus on shopping, the menu, the surroundings and I try tobe interested in people. I try to be geninue.