Lets compare

Since meeting my girl friend and filling her in on my hobby , I have noticed things that I already knew but in a larger scale now.

There was a thread posted here that I asked her to read , it went on about how women can go out dressed in jeans and a t-shirt without notice.

My S.O. is a female version of myself, she enjoys wearing clothing targeted for men. She has expressed to me that she feels uncomfortable in a dress, make-up and would never wear nylons. She does shave her leggs but not as often as most women( don't get me wrong they are not hairy either).

She enjoys wearing boxers from time to time even sleeping in them. So lets compare.

If she goes out just as I mentioned Jeans , boots, T-shirt and boxers under the jeans with no make up on and hair pulled up ( she has long beautiful hair ). No one bats an eye at her, trust me I have been out with her when she is in full DRAB and she does it daily.

Now me ( and I never have ) if I was to go out dressed as her counterpart, I would be laughed at, poked at, asked to leave , or even beat up.

By the way after she read that thread she told me she totally understood and it was very unfair..

Nobody would know she's wearing boxers, but her, so we'll just dicount that. Now that leaves us with jeans, boots & T-shirt. O.K. so far... I've worn them to and not been laughed at. Then we look at your "counterpart" wear. Here I'm assuming something feminine. Say a dress or skirt with a nice top and matching heels. Been there, done that too and not been laughed at.
HEY! Maybe your shoes didn't match!!! I would have laughed at you too. :haha:

Shoes didn't match ,,,:heehee:..I'd laugh to..

No what I mean is she doesn't use any type of forms she still looks fem in DRAB ..

Thing is, when your GF dresses in drab, she's mostly dressing down. If she were to "dress to the nines" she'd get more attention, and possibly some that she didn't want.

"Fine" blouses, dresses, hose, heels... These are all designed to catch the eye and ATTRACT a certain kind of attention. Too much color, too short a skirt, too tall a heel, and, again, it's not probably the kind of attention that anyone wants.

Put "a guy in a dress" and you're going to attract some people who are going to feel high-jacked, "Hey, that's for real girls!" or, angry, "Hey, bud... You ain't no gal!" So there you are, stealing turf and frustrating those male wh***-moans.

Meanwhile, there you are in the middle - we hope - just trying to mind your own business. But, that can be a problem in public...

Word to the wise.

Life just isn't fair is it?

Maybe she should try a fake beard and stuffing a pair of socks down the front of her jeans? It might eliminate the question of whether she was trying to present as a man, or a gg who just liked the way guys look and dress.:strugglin
Kel

This is just my opinion but, I dress just like that every day also. Including the sleeping in boxers. I think the difference is that when we dress that way we are not trying to pass ourselves off as men, we are not trying to be masculine. If we stuffed our jeans and wore a fake beards we would most likely get some negative attention too.:2c:

It's not fair but the women had to fight to wear pants 100 yrs ago. They were willing to fight for that right, are you?

That argument works Way2real until you put people like Ryan (About JiveTurkeyOnRye) into the mix. Here is a person that is not trying present as a woman - but enjoys the clothes. ( Sorry Ryan. Not trying to throw you under the bus - just need an example. No offense.)
And, again I understand where your going Kellycan until you factor in the points that not all men strut huge "socks" in their pants nor do all real ladies have big "headlights"
No.. I think IMHO (Good gravey I hate that saying "IMHO" - who the heck elses opinion would it be since I'm the only one sitting at the keyboard? :doh:)
No... I think it is the fact that the public in general has not and may never reach the point to realize who humans are by what's inside rather than whats outside the skin.

She's pushing the boundaries... it's what girls can do at the moment (societally) - men can't... enjoy...

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Originally Posted by way2real

This is just my opinion but, I dress just like that every day also. Including the sleeping in boxers. I think the difference is that when we dress that way we are not trying to pass ourselves off as men, we are not trying to be masculine. If we stuffed our jeans and wore a fake beards we would most likely get some negative attention too.:2c:

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But the question you have to ask yourself is, if society dictated that you couldn't wear pants or flannel shirts, if people made jokes at your expense if they saw you outside dressed like that, if your friends and family shunned you if you told them you liked wearing jeans, would you eventually modify your appearance to look more masculine so that you could go out dressed the way you wanted in the hopes of drawing less attention to yourself. I can't say for sure, but I think if I had always been allowed to wear dreasses and such and wear my hair in any style I wanted, I don't think I'd care about modifying my body shape to look more female. It's engrained in us that a dress doesn't look right on a male shaped body. It's meant for a female shaped body, so if we want to wear a dress and not look ridiculous, we modify our shape.

Wendy

Wendy

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I think a person should be able to dress as they please, but the thread was "Lets compare". All I meant was that most women who dress like that are not trying to present as male (and if they are, are subject to much of the same small minded attitudes) as men who dress in female attire and try to present as female. Am I making any sense or just making people angry, cause that wasn't my intention.:hugs:

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Originally Posted by way2real

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I think a person should be able to dress as they please, but the thread was "Lets compare". All I meant was that most women who dress like that are not trying to present as male (and if they are, are subject to much of the same small minded attitudes) as men who dress in female attire and try to present as female. Am I making any sense or just making people angry, cause that wasn't my intention.:hugs:

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You are making sense:hugs: It's a very good point also...

I am not and never will be a GG,, I have no clue why one perfers to dress in DRAB with out make up and hair pulled up...I also have no problem with that at all just to be clear..:D

Like one poster said there are some who do the same as my GF but a male version ... I have never done it myself ( go out that way ) but I am sure if I did I would be in for it.

Now I also agree that some of us ( me included ) have the urge to be seen that way ..So we tend to emulate or add forms or make up, to be honest and for me that stuff sucks and makes a mess but the 5 oclock shadow has a mind of its own ..

Thanks for posting GG's are a great imput:love:

To quote Madonna, quoting Ian McEwan:

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading

way2real - I can't speak for everyone, but certainly wasn't offended or angry. I was just trying to add to the discussion. You make a valid point and I was just trying to offer a possible explanation as to why it's different for women. Communication is good - it gets us all thinking.:Peace:

Wendy

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller

That argument works Way2real until you put people like Ryan (About JiveTurkeyOnRye) into the mix. Here is a person that is not trying present as a woman - but enjoys the clothes. ( Sorry Ryan. Not trying to throw you under the bus - just need an example. No offense.)
And, again I understand where your going Kellycan until you factor in the points that not all men strut huge "socks" in their pants nor do all real ladies have big "headlights"
No.. I think IMHO (Good gravey I hate that saying "IMHO" - who the heck elses opinion would it be since I'm the only one sitting at the keyboard? :doh:)
No... I think it is the fact that the public in general has not and may never reach the point to realize who humans are by what's inside rather than whats outside the skin.

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My point was that a gg in jeans and a t, doesn't go as far as a cder with wig,make-up,breast forms and the clothing. So where is the comparison that the OP was citing? If the GG did dawn the fake beard,bulge etc, she would no doubt get some strange looks and comments also. I was addressing the "comparison" comment... not society's acceptance of men who wear women's clothing.
Kelly

Let me give it a try:

I put on a flannel shirt, jeans and loafers. My wife puts on a skirt, stockings, heels, and a femme blouse. No makeup and just combed hair.

We switch clothing.

No one would notice her. I'd be noticed!

but you are all correct, it should be apples to apples whatever the comparison is.

P.S. which is why fitting in as a woman is highly preferable for me :) think: blend :)

And a blah blah blah blah blah.

Really, how many times does this topic have to come up? I'm getting really freaking sick of it.

GFs earned the right to wear pants because they fought for it. And out of all the things that GFs in the States still don't have due to sexism, why the hell do CDers here always have to start moaning about the one thing that tips the balance the other way? And I'm not even getting into the whole stone's-thrown FtM comparison here, but I'll say that blanket statements such as the original are insulting to both GFs and FtMs. Because, believe me, people don't know how the hell to differentiate sometimes, both here and in the real world.

Case closed. Go fight for it instead of complaining. Think about the other viewers of these threads before you write. Live long and prosper.

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Originally Posted by Ze

why the hell do CDers here always have to start moaning about the one thing that tips the balance the other way?

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Because that one thing happens to be.....
:hugs:

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Originally Posted by Engendered

Because that one thing happens to be.....
:hugs:

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And I'm not denying that. And I'm sure it's very, very frustrating. (I should know! I deal with it myself in an alternate manner; the inability to dress how I want!) But to see thread after thread complaining about this sort of thing does no good. If it bothers people so much, then actually go out and DO something about it, especially when what is being complained about was only accomplished by individuals in the past that did go out and do something about it.

Mesh this with the numerous threads wondering why women don't wear corsets/slips/stockings/heels/etc anymore--and giving the end result that there seems to be something wrong with them--and then add in all the "why doesn't she accept me and do everything I want?" threads, and it makes me boldly question whether sexism is actually a character trait of CDing or if it's more a generational thing.

CDers have a higher correlation of hating/putting down/making fun of GFs and FtMs. (Ever notice the trends here?) Yet these same actions admirably do not seem very rampant in transwomen.

So somebody please tell me what's going on because I sure as hell don't understand.

This happens everytime , Blah Blah Blah.. Who says no one here had to earn it?

It was a simple topic to which no whineing was involved It's a simple fact earned or not that wasn't brought up by the OP ( me) .. Let me ask you something ..While women where earning this so called right to dress in DRAB ..Did other women beat them to death as a hate crime if so it's news to me.. Give credit where credit is due yes they fought and yes they earned it .. But ask yourself at what expense ? Looks like apples to pine apples to me ..

GG's I am in no way denying what was fought for in any of you .. But it was years ago and you couldn't vote either or have a good paying job.. Hats off for that .. you done well ..

But even GG's not neccasary in here would have to admit seeing a male in frock is a joke to most people that comment does not reflect my opinion BTW..

A simple topic sorry it was brought up..:eek:

Are you familiar with rape and domestic abuse? Death threats? Sexual and physical harassment? Torture and maiming? Daily objectification in too many ways to mention? And that's not including "accidental" deaths. Are you implying that the current situation of CDers trying to dress en femme is harder than the situations of GFs both back in the day and currently? We're back to the point of my argument, it would appear. :straightface:

And yes, it would be helpful next time if members did a search on their topic within the forum before they make a new thread. I'm sorry, this topic is nowhere near as simple as you may perceive it to be, and this was definitely a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back thread to me.

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Originally Posted by Ze

Are you familiar with rape and domestic abuse? Death threats? Sexual and physical harassment? Torture and maiming? Daily objectification in too many ways to mention? And that's not including "accidental" deaths. Are you implying that the current situation of CDers trying to dress en femme is harder than the situations of GFs both back in the day and currently? We're back to the point of my argument, it would appear. :straightface:

And yes, it would be helpful next time if members did a search on their topic within the forum before they make a new thread. I'm sorry, this topic is nowhere near as simple as you may perceive it to be, and this was definitely a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back thread to me.

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Awe Yeah ...do these things happen to women because they are dressed IN DRAB??? If you have seen this type oof post before then why bother repling ?

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

Awe Yeah ...do these things happen to women because they are dressed IN DRAB???

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Wow. You're seriously missing the point of my efforts in their entirety.

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If you have seen this type oof post before then why bother repling ?

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Because usually I don't. I always try to hold off because it seems the message won't get across anyway, thus making it a complete waste of my energy and time. And since it seems this theory was right from the get-go, I believe I should cut my losses now, conserve my energy, and put it towards something that has a chance.

I really wish my original question would be answered, but I'll just have to figure it out elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Ze

Wow. You're seriously missing the point of my efforts in their entirety.

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Yes I am due to the original post that said nothing about anyone earning any rights or my made up grudge against the fact women can do it..I am happy for them I promote it and stand by them ..I said nothing about murders, raps , domestic violence.. I was compareing the facts of the OP..

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Originally Posted by Ze

Because usually I don't. I always try to hold off because it seems the message won't get across anyway, thus making it a complete waste of my energy and time. And since it seems this theory was right from the get-go, I believe I should cut my losses now, conserve my energy, and put it towards something that has a chance.

I really wish my original question would be answered, but I'll just have to figure it out elsewhere.

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You attacked me because this thread offened you for some reason and placed theroys from it that was never said from me..there are 1000s of post I am new here sorry I can't say I won't have the same thought as someone else did a few years back..

EDIT: I want to add in a note here apologizing for the fact that my horrible grammar might make it a bit frustrating to read this... I'm really sorry about that. >.< And also for the length, although I have a lot more thoughts that I can't even begin to write out. AND I want to say that I don't intend for any hostility to come across, so please take that into account when hearing my words in your head. Thanks.

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And out of all the things that GFs in the States still don't have due to sexism, why the hell do CDers here always have to start moaning about the one thing that tips the balance the other way?

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Are you familiar with rape and domestic abuse? Death threats? Sexual and physical harassment? Torture and maiming? Daily objectification in too many ways to mention? And that's not including "accidental" deaths.

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I originally had this bit at the end, but I decided to move it to the front in order to provide a little context upfront:
People need to wake up and realize that there are pros and cons for both men and women. There's so much complexity to the range of treatment and experience for both men and women that it couldn't possibly ever be outlined accurately here, or anywhere. By pointing out some cons for men I don't intend to belittle any of the cons for women in the slightest, only to get your attention on the fact that there ARE cons for men. It belittles EVERYONE in North America when the struggles that men face are ignored, because the only way we can ever hope to come to true equality is by taking issues for both sides of the coin seriously. Doesn't mean we can ever fix everything, but matriarchy isn't any more desirable than patriarchy. I guess it's important to note also that my contribution to this thread is solely within a North American context.

And now for the main bits:
Honestly Ze, since you've never lived as a man I think your eyes are closed to reality of male problems or unfair treatment. When you've suddenly had a woman walking in front of you whirl around and almost nail you in the face with her purse just because you were male and it was night, then you'll understand that the fact that you were only trying to get to a different side street doesn't matter, because you are stereotyped as a threat (daily no less). Can't say there's anything wrong with a woman defending herself when she feels it's necessary, but once you've learned to not walk near women at night (this can mean anywhere within her viewing range), to not pass too close to children, to not this and that then you'll have a little more perspective. Try watching as women make all kinds of derogatory remarks openly about men, about how your dick must be tiny because they consider your hands small, and then being chewed out if you are even taken blatantly out of context for being 'hateful' and all kinds of shit. Try being punched in the face by a woman and not being able to even hold your hands out in an effort to keep distance between you and her or else other people may step in to 'defend her'.

Women can be raped, and CAN also be rapists themselves. Men who are raped are almost 100% of the time not taken seriously if their rapist is a woman. Contrast that with the fact that a woman can ruin a man's life simply by claiming he raped her, regardless of whether he really did.

Men have almost no rights to their children compared to what women do. A man may be an excellent parent, and a woman might be an incredible poor one who cares very little about her child, but that woman will still likely get full custody as long as she can present herself well in a courtroom. Women can take children away from men simply to spite them.

Both men and women can abuse their partners. It's more common that men are physically violent, but the fact that women are more often emotionally abusive can put their victims at a distinct disadvantage. Emotional abuse leaves no visible marks, and leaves men who are already considered to be unabusable with little proof to give if they wish to seek help.

As for the workplace, I have yet to work in an environment that wasn't dominated by women. My mother works in upper management, and has for as long as I can remember had more female than male coworkers, no matter where she works. Upper management is in many places still a bit of an 'old boy's club', but that doesn't change the fact that at most job levels women are far less likely to be fired during downsizing than men are.

Women aren't the only targets of violence from men. While women are more likely to be sexually assaulted, men are more likely to be the targets of random assault and mugging. Women may assault men also, an example being when a man headed to a fast food restaurant sustained irreperable damage to his genitals when he was assaulted by a woman he did not know, likely because she was angry with another man and generalized (as is also done daily) that all men are cheaters, or violent, or whatever and validated her violence towards him. Neither women nor men are safe from BAD PEOPLE.

That's just a small bit of discussion of SOME problems that men face. Both women and men have more variety of difficulties in life than we could talk about here. Understanding the vast range of problems, the consequences of them, and especially the way that these problems can create or increase the occurrence of other problems can take a lifetime of study to have any remotely accurate understanding of... but I believe that BECAUSE of that, rather than despite it, we all need to be conscious of the problems of others, and we should NEVER belittle the problems of an individual or group of people based on the problems of another.

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blanket statements such as the original are insulting to both GFs and FtMs

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I'm not insulted by the original post in the slightest. The danger and humiliation that men face for simply trying to wear a piece of cloth shaped in a certain way IS a serious problem, regardless of whether women have a similar problem or not, and regardless of what positive things are in a man's life. Gay men, male CDers, and transsexual women have all made efforts to improve the treatment of male-perceived individuals who have feminine personality traits, activities, or taste in clothing. Many have DIED for those efforts. Would you go back in time and tell a specific woman or group of women who were afraid to help stand up and gain the right to vote or wear masculine clothing, that no woman had any right to complain because they hadn't all gone out and earned it yet?

Its not as bad out therte asyou think. 99% of people who read you are supportives

Apologies that I am taking this off topic but I really have to pick up on this bit which stood out the most to me:

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Originally Posted by brylram

Honestly Ze, since you've never lived as a man I think your eyes are closed to reality of male problems or unfair treatment.

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I think this comment is pretty shocking tbh. Saying that just because he hasn’t lived as one [I assume you actually mean ‘presenting as one’ because from what I am lead to believe FtMs were born males but were raised to present as females, as was MtFs born females but were raised to present as males] that it automatically means he has absolutely no knowledge of how it feels/ is to have masculine orientated problems? That is, in itself, narrow minded. Assuming. Tisk tisk.

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Originally Posted by brylram

When you've suddenly had a woman walking in front of you whirl around and almost nail you in the face with her purse just because you were male and it was night, then you'll understand that the fact that you were only trying to get to a different side street doesn't matter, because you are stereotyped as a threat (daily no less). Can't say there's anything wrong with a woman defending herself when she feels it's necessary, but once you've learned to not walk near women at night (this can mean anywhere within her viewing range), to not pass too close to children, to not this and that then you'll have a little more perspective.

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Oh, I’m sorry but I don’t seem to have had any of these problems, does that make me unaware of the “reality of male problems or unfair treatment” - or sumfink? I doubt that very much, you know why? Simple, because I am observant. I am sure Ze is too. It doesn’t take being raised a male or presenting as a male to understand male stuff…get what I’m saying?

Back on topic. I do find it very unfair that men aren’t allowed to wear what they want. But I do have a possible solution…

If you want to wear a skirt in public…tell everyone it’s a kilt and you have Scottish ancestors :heehee: and if they try and get violent, tell them their being racist LOL. :laughing:

Sorry just had to add a bit of light-heartedness to a serious convo…

Oh but before I go...Ze...this IS the MtF section, I think they have every right to moan about their issues in their section. No?

<leaves>

Since I was mentioned by name in this thread, I'll go ahead and respond to it and try to hopefully barter a small peace within it. I'm going to disregard all discussions of anything equality related that has nothing to do with clothing and gender expression. Can't we all just agree there are things that suck about being a man and things that suck about being a woman, that have nothing to do with clothing, and stop bashing the other gender as if they have it so great and our lives suck?

Now, let's get to the real topic here:

First off, I don't feel like Stephanie was throwing me under the bus, because frankly, I don't feel like I serve as a counterpoint example to what Way2Real was saying. Way2Real was basically making the same point that I make whenever I go out dressed as a guy wearing skirts and tights and boots and such. And she's and Kellycan are also right, by the way, I've had a female friend go to a crossdressing party in new york, and she said the subway ride there was one of the scariest, most hostile experiences in her entire time living there, because she was presenting as a man, and people were making nasty comments without any regard for simple human decency.

And Ze and Lucy_Bella are also both right. Yes, there's a double standard and that sucks. But also, there's only so many times you can point out that double standard before frankly, you need to "be a man" about it and do something to change it or shut up about it. This topic does come up a lot, and I personally think it's flawed for the same reasons Way2Real and KellyCan cited. The fact is that a MtF crossdresser passing as a woman, is not the same as a woman wearing jeans and a t-shirt. I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other, but it is not the same.

If you are a man dressing up as a woman because you're truly transgendered and you have a female part of your personality that you feel is part of the real you, and that presenting as a woman expresses that, then you absolutely should dress that way. But if the only reason you dress as a woman is because you want to blend in and not get noticed simply for wearing the clothes you want to wear, you know what, I find that to be sort of a cop-out. You'll never gain acceptance that way. Let me say this again, you'll never gain acceptance by hiding in plain sight. And that's where Ze's valid point comes in. Women can dress basically in drab without adopting a male persona or "forms" or anything, because they earned that right. And they did it with resistance from men and women. It's a frequent example of mine, but don't forget that it was such a shocking thing that Mary Tyler Moore wore pants on the Dick Van Dyke Show as recently as the 1960's, that she was only allowed to do it in one scene per episode.

The fact is, I go out dressed as a man in a skirt on a fairly frequent basis these days. I did it three times in the last week. Do people notice? Yes. Do I get some negative attention? Yes. But, I should point out, none of that negative attention has come in the form of anyone being threatening or hostile to me. It's always been the odd glance or laugh or comment behind my back that people don't think I notice. And you know what? I don't care. Last night was my friend Laura's birthday party and we started at a mutual friend's house, then went to this little hipsterish show for a bit at an art gallery near by, and then we went to a bar that the kinds of guys who call each other "bro" hang out in. I wore a men's button up shirt, a solid black kilt, and a pair of black opaque tights with engineer/motorcycle boots. I didn't hear a single negative comment from anyone all night, it was basically a non-issue for everyone. I didn't get threatened, I didn't get beat up, I didn't even get teased. Now, is there a chance all those things could happen? Yes. And there's an even greater chance I'd be hit by a drunk driver coming to and from these places, but just as I don't let those odds keep me from going places, I'm not letting the worst case scenario keep me from wearing what I want and enjoying it.

So to sum it all up, there is absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that women have more freedom to dress how they choose than men do. However, there does come a point where all those words are meaningless, unless you're willing to do something to change it.

(Sidenote: One thing that seems to get disregarded in these threads a lot is that women, while free to wear whatever they want, also have enormous amounts of pressure to dress in certain ways. There's much, much more judgement amongst women regarding clothes than most men, at least straight men, usually ever encounter. I can remember multiple occasions where my mom felt mortified after going to the grocery store in sweats only to run into someone she knows. Grocery shopping in sweats! the horror!)

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I think this comment is pretty shocking tbh. Saying that just because he hasn’t lived as one [I assume you actually mean ‘presenting as one’ because from what I am lead to believe FtMs were born males but were raised to present as females, as was MtFs born females but were raised to present as males] that it automatically means he has absolutely no knowledge of how it feels/ is to have masculine orientated problems? That is, in itself, narrow minded. Assuming. Tisk tisk.

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I did mean presenting. I've been up 20-some hours now after only a couple hours of sleep before... I've been muddling my words up a lot and already had a big misunderstanding with my girlfriend this morning because of it. And I didn't mean he has no idea, just that he seems to have his eyes closed to issues that come along with being perceived as male in society... Ze demonstrated that himself by stating that there was only one problem that males experience, compared to the many that women have. I may have misunderstood what he meant though.

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Oh, I’m sorry but I don’t seem to have had any of these problems, does that make me unaware of the “reality of male problems or unfair treatment” - or sumfink? I doubt that very much, you know why? Simple, because I am observant. I am sure Ze is too. It doesn’t take being raised a male or presenting as a male to understand male stuff…get what I’m saying?

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Observant doesn't always have anything to do with it. Woman was on the other side of a hedge, I was walking very quickly and when I came around the hedge I ended up too close behind her by accident, before I even knew whether she was female or male tbh... the only reason that she missed me with the bag is that I had already started moving towards the other side of the road, and the side-street that was my destination. All happened very quickly, lol, but drove the point I was already aware of home.

As for the kids part, boys who are friendly towards children sometimes learn a shocking lesson when they grow older, and there's a lot of context change for certain people between boy (which can be viewed as harmless more like females are) and man, which can happen rapidly depending on the people involved. The 'this and that' part I won't get into because I'm not even sure exactly which things I meant at the time, although I can think of some good options, but that also comes down to a particular people involved kind of thing. As I stated in my first post there's a big range of perceptions out there, and an even bigger range of problems/personal experiences.

Personally I was always well aware that I needed to stay a good distance away from women, during the day even depending on circumstances, and fortunately I've never wanted anything to do with children anyway, aha... but I've always been surprised at the amount of transguys that just don't ****ing get that! Baffling really. I never perceived myself as female though, even though I didn't consciously understand that it was possible to be trans, and a lot who are surprised by this type of stuff have at some point perceived themselves as female... anyway that's a bit off topic because I wasn't talking about Ze like that anyway, just stating that once he's actively perceived as having to keep a distance in those ways his eyes might open more, because as I stated before he was talking like they aren't. Again, I may have just misunderstood.

I had no clue what this post was going to turn into and I am SORRY for creating it.,,

Everyone is correct... I was wrong!..

My orignal post wasn't about rights and who earned them and how, it wasn't about who is afraid or dosen't have the courage..

It was about how my girlfriend dresses and since I was in the MTF section I didn't factor others and for that I am sorry..

To be honest if a simple post like this one can draw hairs between us and place that line in the dirt thats very sad, we all have goals and that is to reserve the right to be treated with respect no matter how we present ourselves in how we dress ( unless in a chicken suit )..


Sorry I'll be more cautioned next time in my topic..

Lucy, I think you're making a bigger deal out of this than you need to. You aren't wrong at all! You made a very keen observation about your GFs clothing choices versus what you feel you can or can't wear. I really think if you break down the bickering that this thread devolved into, the real heart of everyones response is "you're right, that is how it is. Now, what would you like to do to change it, if anything?"

Well Jive ,

Thanks I am trying not to make a big deal and if I come accross that way I am sorry,,

My the point was and is that my GF read that post..Now keep in mind she wasn;t born during any movments and flurishes off of what her fore mothers fought for without any requards to it. I.E. she can truley be herself without knowing ( cause she doesn't) that years ago long before her time she couldn't.

Hell it was even before my time ..Thats all I was saying, she read it and said she understood.. The fact she read a post here and understood what a CDer goes through.. I mentioned nothing to the fact that I had no courage to go out myself and how un fair it was... She read a post and understood...LOL she did tell me that she didn't mind me going out in public but she didn't want anyone she knew to see me because she didn't want it to get back to her family..

Man, what a pecking party this has turned into! Fun, eh?

Anyway, I think that no matter how much we talk about how women had to fight for the right to wear pants, the truth is, skirts and dresses are always going to be considered a woman's domain. No matter what.

Now, there may have been a time way back when, when a woman in pants would have been considered shocking. But there was never some huge societal upheaval that ushered in the era of women in pants. It just happened. Gradually, women just started wearing pants. And often, they were pants that were made for women.

Conversely, no matter how many men choose to walk around wearing skirts and dresses, society and the fashion world is not about to jump on some bandwagon that accepts this as normal behavior. He'll always be wearing women's clothing - clothing meant for women to wear. And no one is manufacturing skirts and dresses designed for men.

Now, take that a step further. When I wear a dress, I'm actually masquerading as a woman. I'm trying my hardest to acutally look like I'm female. I wear a wig, and breast-forms. I'm wearing makeup. I transform myself to the best of my ability. Women tossing on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt aren't doing that.

A woman wearing pants manages to feminize the whole look just by being a woman. A man wearing a skirt or a dress....well, let's just say he doesn't exactly masculinize that whole look (since it's not meant to ever be masculinized), and it certainly doesn't present a look that is appealing to a whole lot of people. But toss in the hair, the boobies, the lipstick, etc., and people find it very appealing.

So the whole question, when boiled down to gravy, is whether it's crossdressing for women to wear guy stuff. And the answer is no. But it is crossdressing for a guy to wear girls stuff. So yeah, it's not fair, but it's reality. And I doubt all the discussion and flare is going to ever change that.

Lucy Bella you just said it -COURAGE- that is what we all need to have if we want acceptance from society in general to wear what we want when we want. Unfortunatly, a lot of us don't have the courage to take a chance at acceptance and would rather complain about why we are not accepted. Myself included. Although I do not complain much. LOL

If we keep bickering here eventually some will grow tired of this and go out dressed as they choose. But they have to be willing to LOSE EVERYTHING in the process.

This is my opinion as to why we choose to hide rather than fight for the right to wear a dress or skirt.

The truth is we do have that right as Jive Turkey has shown, What we really want is to know for sure that we will be accepted and not lose everything before we take that step out our front door in our high heels and carrying a purse.

I am making small steps in this effort as I walk out everyday carrying my purse over my shoulder, although we sometimes call it a man bag. But its a start. RIGHT. :)

Marla,

Very well said, my mistake was I didn't include the FTM .... They do get as much crap as we do on this topic and I didn't say that when I brought this topic up ..

I do want to say I am sorry for them on not including them on this topic .. Even tho it wasn't the direction I was going on the subject.

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Anyway, I think that no matter how much we talk about how women had to fight for the right to wear pants, the truth is, skirts and dresses are always going to be considered a woman's domain. No matter what.

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Men originally wore dress-like clothing. Pants developed for men, and then later developed for women... but skirt/dress type clothing was the start for everyone. Based on that we may well be due one day for women to abandon dresses and men to go back to them. lol

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Conversely, no matter how many men choose to walk around wearing skirts and dresses, society and the fashion world is not about to jump on some bandwagon that accepts this as normal behavior. He'll always be wearing women's clothing - clothing meant for women to wear. And no one is manufacturing skirts and dresses designed for men.

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Hmm, I've seen boundaries pushed on runways... shirts so long that they are like dresses for example... so I'm not entirely sure that it can't be accepted some day.

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I do want to say I am sorry for them on not including them on this topic ..

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Don't apologize... you were talking about something specific, not everyone needs to be included in everything all the time.

Who wants an alcoholic beverage?

lol, NiCo... I prefer sticking to cola, so you can have mine if you'd like. :P

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Originally Posted by TGMarla

Anyway, I think that no matter how much we talk about how women had to fight for the right to wear pants, the truth is, skirts and dresses are always going to be considered a woman's domain. No matter what.

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Wow, that's a really bold, shortsighted statement. If history teaches us nothing else, it is that everything changes. Do I think it is just around the corner? No. I imagine that for the majority of my life, my wearing skirts will always be seen as, at the very least, something of a quirk of mine. Do I hope I'm wrong? Of course. But men have worn skirts throughout history, and many still do today, even if only for observance of traditions, but they're still being preserved.

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But there was never some huge societal upheaval that ushered in the era of women in pants. It just happened. Gradually, women just started wearing pants.

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Not entirely true. Women started wearing pants as a result of two major societal upheavals. One being the women's rights movement, the other being World War II, when women began working a lot of manufacturing jobs that were traditonally held by men, while those men were off fighting the war. Before that it was a very fringe thing to do.

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Conversely, no matter how many men choose to walk around wearing skirts and dresses, society and the fashion world is not about to jump on some bandwagon that accepts this as normal behavior. .

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But this isn't the converse point to what you were saying. If women gradually started wearing pants, then it stands to reason that the potential for men to wear skirts (again) would likely be a gradual thing as well.

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He'll always be wearing women's clothing - clothing meant for women to wear. And no one is manufacturing skirts and dresses designed for men

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UtiliKilts
SportKilt's "Specialty Fabric" Kilts
Midas Clothing

Article on H&M's men's skirt debuting this spring

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A woman wearing pants manages to feminize the whole look just by being a woman. A man wearing a skirt or a dress....well, let's just say he doesn't exactly masculinize that whole look (since it's not meant to ever be masculinized)

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Right, I forgot women were magical creatures that fart pixie dust and ice cream. Please. There are plenty of women who look no more feminine in jeans than men do, without any attempt to do so. And there are plenty of men who come across as feminine even if they don't wear a stitch of women's clothes.

Furthermore, men can look very masculine in a skirt. From kilts, to sarongs, to caftans, to kimonos to tunics to togas. Or have you never seen Braveheart, Troy, Gladiator, Clash of the Titans, Spartacus, etc. etc. ?

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So the whole question, when boiled down to gravy, is whether it's crossdressing for women to wear guy stuff. And the answer is no. But it is crossdressing for a guy to wear girls stuff. So yeah, it's not fair, but it's reality. And I doubt all the discussion and flare is going to ever change that.

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Which continues to further the point I become more and more aware of. While there are many TG and CD folks who "get it," there is definitely a grouping who insist on upholding and reinforcing the same gender stereotypes, taboos and double standards that hurt everyone. Somewhat ironic too considering your title choice under your username.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

Now me ( and I never have ) if I was to go out dressed as her counterpart, I would be laughed at, poked at, asked to leave , or even beat up.

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Laughed at, maybe occasionally( not necessarily ). Thankfully most of us who go out in the world haven't been beaten up or asked to leave.

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Originally Posted by Ze

If it bothers people so much, then actually go out and DO something about it, especially when what is being complained about was only accomplished by individuals in the past that did go out and do something about it.

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Right on.

I do the same as women. I dress in some female attire but don't try to present or deceive anyone into believing that I am woman. I believe that this is an easier route than attempting to present as a woman and is therefore more accepted. Also, there are no laws preventing you or I from wearing women's clothing. Women started wearing men's clothing because they had the balls or should I say ovaries to just do it. I believe that men have much more fragile egos and therefore it is very difficult for them to do the same.

:2c: Jamie

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Originally Posted by way2real

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I think a person should be able to dress as they please, but the thread was "Lets compare". All I meant was that most women who dress like that are not trying to present as male (and if they are, are subject to much of the same small minded attitudes) as men who dress in female attire and try to present as female. Am I making any sense or just making people angry, cause that wasn't my intention.:hugs:

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Wow, that's a really bold, shortsighted statement. If history teaches us nothing else, it is that everything changes. Do I think it is just around the corner? No. I imagine that for the majority of my life, my wearing skirts will always be seen as, at the very least, something of a quirk of mine. Do I hope I'm wrong? Of course. But men have worn skirts throughout history, and many still do today, even if only for observance of traditions, but they're still being preserved.



Not entirely true. Women started wearing pants as a result of two major societal upheavals. One being the women's rights movement, the other being World War II, when women began working a lot of manufacturing jobs that were traditonally held by men, while those men were off fighting the war. Before that it was a very fringe thing to do.



But this isn't the converse point to what you were saying. If women gradually started wearing pants, then it stands to reason that the potential for men to wear skirts (again) would likely be a gradual thing as well.



UtiliKilts
SportKilt's "Specialty Fabric" Kilts
Midas Clothing

Article on H&M's men's skirt debuting this spring



Right, I forgot women were magical creatures that fart pixie dust and ice cream. Please. There are plenty of women who look no more feminine in jeans than men do, without any attempt to do so. And there are plenty of men who come across as feminine even if they don't wear a stitch of women's clothes.

Furthermore, men can look very masculine in a skirt. From kilts, to sarongs, to caftans, to kimonos to tunics to togas. Or have you never seen Braveheart, Troy, Gladiator, Clash of the Titans, Spartacus, etc. etc. ?



Which continues to further the point I become more and more aware of. While there are many TG and CD folks who "get it," there is definitely a grouping who insist on upholding and reinforcing the same gender stereotypes, taboos and double standards that hurt everyone. Somewhat ironic too considering your title choice under your username.

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I keep telling my self saty away..........stay away...but I can't

Jive!!!!! God BLESS YOU!! and all you stand for....

Let me just cap this off real fast tho...

On this rock we call home and there are other species here that mimic the sex they are not born as other than we ,,, However,,,........ We are the only ones that wear a clothing that is specified for a certain gender..

Now think about it ?????? Is this in our minds???.. My answer is Hell no!!


This is human nature that was for some reason formed to a society of un acceptance... Looking back 200 to 300 years ago this behaviour was acceptable , what happen?

It's been buried in history but if you look hard enough it was there ..there is no denying it.. I am no history teacher ,,,,,.......Trust me it's there look for yourself!!!

Are we growing into a nation of what Hitler himself promoted,? even tho it's suspected he himself was a crossdresser? No proof just rumer...

Think....yes we are different but we all stand for the same thing be ourselves and yearn for the need of acceptance..


( STEPS OFF SOAP BOX )

THANKS!:hugs:

You're delusional.