I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right :heehee::heehee:
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I have been having a discussion via PM with someone who claims there isnt such thing as a F2M CDER,. I on the other hand maintain there are F2M CDER's
So come on you guys, am I right or am I right :heehee::heehee:
You are right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
We have a few guys on the board that when dressed male they indentify as a FtM CDer ie male for the time and moment, but when dressed female ID as female, if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!...oh and before anyone says, 'that is just a tomboy'...that is TOTALLY different! Tomboys still ID as female
:yt:
They're just very rare. And for what it's worth, Sheila, some medical texts still argue that FtM TGs don't exist at all, either. ;)
I'd like to chat to those who write those medical texts :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
They'll probably just look at you and say, "There's more gravy than there is grave about you!" :elaugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieron Andrew
I often wondered the same thing. About the closest I've come to knowing a female crossdresser is the daughter of a very good GG friend of mine. Her daughter was once married, had a child, and now is totally lesbian. However, she does drag shows as a guy. But when I had the pleasure of meeting her, she looked and acted just like any other GG and no one would ever suspect she could dress and act male very well. I have seen many pictures of her dressed as a male. But other then her, I have never known of other GG's that are strictly crossdressers
Thanks guys, :DI am glad I wasn't wrong again !!!! :heehee::heehee::D:D
I wonder why that is. Any theories, anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
well I worked in the medical field :Ze: and I know how wrong they can be :heehee::heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
I have talked to a few GG's at other forums (non-cd/tg related) who love dressing in males clothing for the purpose of being seen as a male by others.
It comes down to how one identifies. A good example is very butch lesbians--the kind you tend to mistake for men by appearances alone. They dress in men's clothes and pass as men (and sometimes even prefer male pronouns), yet are neither cross-dressers nor transmen because they don't identify as such. Rather, they still identify as women, hence the "lesbian" part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshchild
A bit like how transwomen (or transmen) aren't cross-dressers because of how they identify and what that identification constitutes. :)
But surely Ze, it is not just butch lesbians who dress and pass in male clothes,and prefer male pronouns ......... sorry but that almost sound like stereo typing from where I am sitting ..... [SIZE="1"](goes and sits somewhere else to look :D)[/SIZE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
I am sure that there are F2M CDER's who, because of how society view dress code have an easier time of dressing in mainstream e.g. when doing the top & tails bit, it being seen as cute :brolleyes:(not that I am sure they appreciate that patronizing view, by society, whereas a male in a dress is seen (as we are led to :brolleyes:) as weird :brolleyes: and jeans and a top/t-shirt/shirt are seen as norm for GG's to wear
I mean if you read M2F you are aware that we as GG's are seen by society to dress less than ladylike, in fact mannish, so surely it then makes it easier for the F2M CDER to "PASS" on a daily basis, (short spiked hair being a fairly common look on GG's), I seriously am not trying to make light of the seriousness or dedication of F2M TS, ..... that is an entirely different ball game (pardon the pun) ..... but on a daily basis will it not lead to less angst for F2M CDER with their daily passability not in question, when dressing as male, hence perhaps why so many of them do not appear on CD.Com looking for support in the numbers that M2F's do ?
Of course not, Sheila. That's why I said they were an example. ;) As for the patronizing, I think I can safely say that the bulk of us get that, FtM CD or not. The patronizing becomes a whole lot more dangerous the more the patronizer sees the individual isn't trying to be "cute." So that's where a lot of the trouble starts.
I can't really vouch for the "passability" of FtM CDs either way, but if they're trying to go the whole nine yards with it, I don't see how their general public experiences would differ much than ours (TGs). It's unfortunate.
But when it comes down to a "pants/t-shirt" debate, we must always remember that there's a big difference between wearing men's pants/t-shirts and women's/t-shirts pants. Sure, women can wear pants/t-shirts now (hell, they fought for that right!), but they're still women's pants/t-shirts, and hence are pants/t-shirts reconstructed so that they are permissible for women to wear.
We can also get into the lounge wear vs formal attire debate, but I'm getting tired again. :sad:
It wasn't that long ago in relative terms that women wearing pants was considered just as "wierd" as a male person in a dress. It wasn't always taken as "being cute." For example people were shocked to see Marlene Dietrich wearing "a man's suit."
Well, going back to my scant lounge vs formal point, I'd argue that's still very much a problem. If I go around in a men's t-shirt, not as many weird looks, but look out when I feel like a button-down and a casual tie. :rolleyes: I did this once at my college and the feedback I received was so bad that I never did it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab Karen
Sure, I've noticed a few famous women rarely donning a man's suit or whatnot for magazines, but that's a huge entertainment factor there. Put that same person in general public and we have a problem.
It's sadly probably still taken as very wierd in some areas of the country, but it's true even in a world reknown area like where I live it would still be rare to see a woman dressed that way ( there are feminized versions, such as Hillary Clinton wears, which is a different category ), so I see what you're saying.
In Marlene's case people were doubly shocked, also because "she's not wearing a dress/skirt."
I'm always surprised to hear this, because I see girls crossdress all the time in my hometown. Are they drag kings? No. But they do crossdress. I don't know if they're lesbians or tomboys or what, but, no one really seems to care. Men's clothing tend to be more comfortable/practical than women's, I always assumed that's why those women wore them all the time.
I see a lot of girls wearing pants but most of the girls I see out actually crossdressing (i.e. actually wearing men's clothing) are either the gamer girl sort, the occasional metalhead or two, or, well, lesbians.
Your right Shiela. I was asked that very question today. Ftm Cd's do exist but the percentage of them transitioning is much greater than that of the Mtf Cd's
*shakes you* How many times do I have to tell you this, Thorny? You live in Mass-a-choo-sits! Your state doesn't count! :tongueoutQuote:
Originally Posted by Thornton
God I can't wait until I've moved up there. :heehee:
Hey! We have our fair share of problems! Like...um...:thinking: hmmm...
This is not a correct definition of CDs. There are many MTF CDs who do not ID as female when crossdressed - I am one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieron Andrew
Not true, there was a tomboy who lived in my street during my childhood who wanted everyone to call her Scott. Later in her teens she dropped the tomboy behavior and conformed as a normal girl.Quote:
Tomboys still ID as female
I am puzzled why there are apparently no forums anywhere for FTM CDers? Even if they do not operate with the stress and stigmas that other TGs cope with, they would still recognize they were different and want to get in contact with others. In this age where every conceivable behavior and pastime is represented on the web where are the FTM CDer sites? I have spent 30 minutes scouring the web and have only come across references to drag kings and lesbians. This is very puzzling when you consider that MTF CDs probably account for about 5% of the male population.
Maybe FTM CDers do not identify with the term crossdresser thinking that only applies to men and they use a different term altogether? Maybe they label themselves tomboys even if members here think that is incorrect?
The there is this from www.glbtq.com " Women who Cross-Dress generally do so for reasons quite different from those that motivate men to cross-dress."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
Kieron did not say ALL he saidQuote:
if there is MtF CDers then they has to be the opposite!
It's funny to see how many people thinks that a tomboy is probably a lesbian, while there are many threads in this site emphasizing the "I'm a CD but not gay at all"
There are, the forum you are on now is as much for FTM CDers as it is for MTF CDers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
We all share many similarities on our journeys and the ways in which we all deal with them.
I agree, many of us do crossdress for differant reasons, but at the end of the day, we are all still very similar in differant ways.
Yup I noticed that.... good old double standards you gotta love em :brolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteDuality
I am aware the site is open to all. But my question still remains if you google female crossdressers and exclude references to drag kings and butch lesbians then you basically come up with zip all for FTM CDs in stark contrast to the millions of hits for MTF CDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by deborah jane
The only plausible explanation to me is that females with mild TG expressions choose the socially acceptable tomboy label and consider themselves to be normal and mainstream. Only those with more profound gender dysphoria recognize tomboy is not applicable and come to a TG site like this.
Make sense?
[SIZE=4]I have actually had 3 very active FtM clients in the past 5 years. All three are good looking women that simply like to CD. One I helped with false facial hair and a crew cut wig, suit and men's shoes and we went dancing at a local casino. Damnned if she didn't hit on a couple of women at the casino. Her husband laughs at her and me. Think about that one..[/SIZE]
The definition of "crossdresser" is starting to sound pretty subjective. Is it how a person identifies (male or female), or wants to be seen by the public? Could be, but not all MtF crossdressers identify or want to be seen as female when dressed, so maybe some FtM crossdressers don't either. Is it the mere fact of which section of the store you got your clothes? Not always, because tomboys aren't necessarily considered crossdressers. Apparently neither are Emo boys who sometimes wear girl's clothes in a boyish way.
Is it who they prefer to date? I think we've established here that Transmen, Transwomen, and MtF crossdressers don't necessarily have to fall into the gay/lesbian, straight or bi category.
In my personal experience... I've been wearing some, but not all male clothes for as long as I can remember, usually mixing them. Men's pants, women's top; or women's pants, men's shirt. The tomboy and crossdresser labels both technically fit me, but I don't completely identify as either. Gender-wise, I'm somewhere in the middle, and flexible according to my mood at the moment - sometimes feeling more masculine and sometimes more feminine. So what the heck am I? I suppose I'm neither here nor there; all and nothing at all. :strugglin: The only time I feel like a crossdresser is when I dress very masculine.
Which brings us back to square 1. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Anne66
I have to take a deep breath and count to 10 before I reply to this thread. I probably won't say much as a part of my reply, apart from that I consider it an extreme prejudice and disrespect to our FTM brothers all along the spectrum (from CD to TG) to even consider that there is no such things as an FTM CDer. As an MTF CDer it insults even me, because I know how I would feel if I went to a 'group', be it on-line or not, and had my very existence questioned.
Stop to think about it -- maybe the reason that we hear so little of FTM CDers is because CDing takes on the era of, and I shudder to use the term, a boys club house complete with a sign that says NO GIRLS ALLOWED. There is room enough under the CDing sky for all. As MTFs we don't own the trademark.
That said, I have known at least 2 FTM CDers personally in my life time. I have come across many more on the web.
Personally, I wish that more GGs would try CDing. As a 'hobby' its too much fun not to share. And that, is why, while my wife doesn't CD the whole way, she does do men's undies as a part of our romantic play. And she says its a blast!
Side note: Apologies if I said anything offensive to my MTF brothers. I admire you guys so much for your courage in being yourself.
Huggles
Toni-Lynn
yes, i've seen two. Right down to the drawn on mustache , or fake mustache ,
Wonderful reply, Toni-Lynn, thank you. :love:
I agree and it is not only the crossdresser label that is subjective but most likely also the label tomboy as well. May I ask you a question Anne - as a GG who perhaps has "mild" transgendered feelings, if you were not part of the TG culture, if you did not have a CD partner and so never visited sites like this - would you ever used the term crossdresser for yourself or would you have simply used the term tomboy as a label that was familiar and acceptable to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne66
You see there is a huge mismatch in the two sides and I see no reason for this to exist. For males there are tens of millions of CDs and a small number of full time transgenderists/transsexuals. On the female side there are tens of millions of tomboys, hardly any crossdressers and small number of full time transgenderists/transsexuals. This glaring discrepancy disappears when you merge the tomboys and FTM CDs together into one.
But this causes a huge problem. Mainstream GG culture has women living a form of TG lifestyle and so many non-TG women think of themselves as being a bit of a tomboy. As a result most tomboys are not TG and those who are do not use what we may feel is a more accurate label for them -crossdresser. After all it is human nature not to want to be different from others and have a stigmatized label attached to you. Given the choice wouldn't anyone choose the safe option?
I am not sure why some people are sensitive about discussing this. It is not about claiming that GGs with TG feelings do not exist but rather that the evidence suggests that very few of them consider themselves to be TG and are most likely unaware and not interested in the TG community and our desire for clearly defined labels.
Rather it appears they consider themselves to be normal, mainstream and shame-free and happily living their lives. Good for them.
Very good, Satrana. I see what you're getting at. You're assuming a lot of things about me, but I think you're on the right track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
I have learned a lot about all of you on this website, and about myself. I usually either use the term tomboy or something to the effect of "that's my lesbian side." It's just easier to understand and more socially acceptable, even if it doesn't tell the whole story. It never crossed my mind that wearing men's clothes was crossdressing until I started reading all the posts by MtFs about how unfair they feel the clothing situation is. Then it occurred to me, what I do is technically crossdressing, even if it's not usually considered as such.
That's just me though. I suspect that if you tried to call most tomboys crossdressers, they would not identify as that, and might :slap: you with their purse... or their tool belt. :heehee:
Nope. FtM crossdressers couldn't possibly exist!
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...ter/cancan.jpg
Hi Sheila and yeah you are right like the guys here said. I agree with Debs though there are many parallels if we take the time to look myself and Helen have found many since we have been sharing our lives :) xx Felix:hugs:
Thanks to all who have so far replied, I was willing to be proved wrong, honest I was, but I just could not get my head round the fact that if M2F's cross dressed, then F2M's wouldn't or couldn't do the same.
However I must admit to being puzzled by the lack of F2M's looking for support from a site such as this ........... I do have a theory as to why they don't appear here, but that one I will keep to myself for fear of stirring a hornets nest up :straightface:
I was wondering the same thing:) I like the responses:) I think it would be cool to hang out with a F2M CD
I think we're on the same page with it, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Buzzzzz...
******SWAT****** ooopppppsssssss sorry :Ze: didn't see you there :heehee::heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
HI Karen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Fab Karen
I remember back in the late 1960's in elementary school that the rule was all girls had to wear a skirt or a dress and pants were not allowed.
I remember my female teacher at the time saying in class that "The day that I wear pants, all of the girls can"
Yes, occasionally I will slip into a dress. If that's what you mean by "FtM cross dresser."
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...ly01/ohwow.jpg
It is a guilty pleasure, and I don't indulge in it often because I don't want my family and friends to be under the impression that I'm "confused" about my gender identity. They already think I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons... :hmph:
I do not consider dressing as a man "cross dressing." That for me is wearing clothes appropriate for my gender. Wearing girl's clothes is cross dressing for me.
Bones :slap: no that is not what I meant :rasp:. ........... ow I can see you are gonna be trouble ............. am gonna keep a close eye on you young man :heehee::heehee::daydreaming::daydreaming:
Not bad, you have bee here all of 5 mins and already you been Tamarad .......... even if it is only by me :devil::devil::devil:
Oh? I hope I didn't make a boo-boo. :bonk: It sounds like maybe I did.
Edit: OH NOW I THINK I GET IT.
FtM CDer as in drag kings!
I thought you meant FtMs who cross dressed.
no bones you didn't ............ my weird way of thinking and humour sometimes does not cross the water well :eek:
Because there are as we all know M2F CDER's I made the assumption that there would be F2M CDERs as well, who liked to dress either on a reg basis or occasionally just like the M2F ................. somebody did not quite agree with my way of think so I thought I would come and ask the folks who would surely have a clue you guys
F2M as in Females who like/need to dress as guys on occasions for whatever reasons
:hugs: ya and I don't offend easily ........... I tend to be the doer :devil::devil::devil:
Yeah. FtM in my mind for some reason always means, "Trans man! Transsexual! Male-identified!" etc. I need to expand my mind a bit. :doh:
:doh: that made my brain hurt...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones
Y'all are thinking too hard. :tongueoutQuote:
Originally Posted by Thornton
He is right, I am a simple soul with very simple thoughts :D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ze