Emasculated (Very Long)

I appologize in advance for this being kind of a rambling vent. My apologies also that some of it may seem derogutory toward women and to those of us (myself included) who aspire/prefer to be feminine. It's just the way it is for me right now and this post is completely self serving to just help me sort things out.

To start with, my current girlfriend is 100% on board with my whole cd thing, or whatever it is. Supportive doesn't begin to describe it. She simply prefers for me to be a "woman". We only see each other on weekends, but it's to the point that I spend almost zero time with her that I'm not crossdressed. Sounds perfect, I know. It is not. When I was married, the only problem we had was my cding. With her, cding isn't even an issue (unless I'm not doing it). It's everything else. We make fantastic girlfriends. When we're in girlfriend mode it's perfect. There are absolutely no restrictions on what I wear or where I wear it. As long as we confine our lives to shopping and eating out and we don't stray from the subjects of hair and makeup and nails and clothes, we're great. The days we can spend trying on clothes and trying the new lipsticks at Sephora are fantastic. We can complain about how our heels hurt our feet and aganozize about bad haircolor jobs with the best of them.

The problems arrise when we have to deal with real life. We disagree on so much. Money, family, places to live. Just everything. We argue. That's where I have a problem. I have no idea how to argue, how to make a point, how to firmly express an opion... as a girl. That's where the emasculated part comes in.

Even as much time as I've spent out in the world appearing, to the best of my ability, to be a woman, the hardest and most real I ever had to be was to smile and look pretty (again, to the best of my ability). That's not real life, and was, in fact, part of the allure of it. Now it's very different. It seems like every weekend we have some issue that degenerates into an argument. I know this is going to sound horribly derogutory, but bear with me. This is just how I feel.

Whenever that moment comes that a discussion turns into a disagreement I become very aware of my feminine appearance, and I feel very weakened. I don't know how to deal with it. I've dealt with some of this just from being a small guy. At 5'9 140 pounds I've never been an imposing figure. But, I was a guy. I dealt with controversy as a guy. I know that women can debate and express themselves forcefully. She certainly can. It's not so much that I sit there feeling like a woman unable to forcefully make a point. I sit there as a self-emasculated male, too weakened and too confused about where I'm even supposed to be coming from to make a point.

The contrast is mind-blowing. I can go from cloud nine having spent the day completely as girlfriends, going through the whole dressing regimine together in a pink fog of skirts and heels and makeup and earrings and nailpolish and hairspray and loving life, to sitting on her couch in those same clothes literally nauseated at the thought of having a disagreement whithout a shred of masculinity to fall back on.

This weekend I decided I wasn't going to put myself in that predicament. We didn't have any girly stuff planned. We were going to clean and wax our cars on Saturday and take a hike to see the fall colors on Sunday. I had my nails done last week, but I took the polish off my fingernails specifically trying to "man up" a bit. My plan was somewhat thwarted on Saturday because I wasn't planning on it being so hot, and I didn't bring any shorts or short sleeves, so I had to borrow some from her. Not too bad, though, except I wore her flipflops and my polished toes were visible, and of course the shaved legs. The disagreemet from a previous week was beginning to rear it's head again, though, as I suspected it would. I felt a little better able to handle it. Sunday I once again set myself up to feel weakened. I didn't even pack my makeup and earrings for the trip to her house, hoping at the time to eliminate the likelyhood of putting myself in that emasculated position, but I once again fell victim to my own weakness.

We were going on a hike, for God's sake. Not to the mall. There was simply no reason for me to "fem up" for this, but, as she was getting ready I followed her lead. I had to borrow shorts and a top again, but that was no big deal. Then as she's getting ready she clips her hair up with a hair claw, so I flat iron mine and clip it up as well. Then she puts on her makeup and asks me if I'm not going to wear any makeup. I told her I didn't bring any because we were just going on a hike. She says, "But you like wearing makeup. You can just use mine." I just can't resist that, and I gave in. When we were leaving she says, "Are you not going to wear earrings?" I said I didn't pack them. She gives me some of hers. I've done it again, and I know it, and I know that before the day is over the old problems will be revisited, and once again I'll be in that familiar yet unfamiliar position. The hike went well and we stopped for dinner, which also was without incident. Once we were home, though, we were back to our old form, and I'm once again not happy with myself.

I could go on and on about how this same type of thing has effected me at work, etc.. The long colored and highlighted hair and the shaped eyebrows that I so stubbornly hold on to and cherish as constant reminders of my fem side make me feel emasculated in certain work situations. The point of all this is that these situations just show so clearly how ill equiped I am to handle anything that resembles real life as a woman. It's never been necessary for me to before, and I LOVED that part of it. In many ways I want the sheltered and secluded part of my feminine life back. I like the fact that it's not real life. I'm not at all equipped to handle it 24/7, and I don't want to learn. I want the escape, and to let all of the problems of real life to be relegated to the facsimily of a male life that I have left.

Feels a little better to get that off my chest.

Rhonda

[SIZE="4"]Rhonda, It sounds like a dream come true for many of us and definitely yours truely. Clearly your GF is a more dominate person then you. If you have not tried to explain your feelings then you need to man up and tell her how unhappy her emasculation has made you feel. But isn't that what we want ? I enjoy it when my wife emasculates me, I wish she did more often. But if thats not your thing then you need to talk or to walk. If you chose the later, you ought to send her contact info along as about a thousand of us would love to be your replacement. So talk to her for goodness sake !! Good luck............Madilyn[/SIZE]

Rhonda, rather than calling it "self-emasculated", I would use a gender neutral term of "not having a healthy sense of self", since this is an issue both males and females sometimes struggle with.

For you, apparently you have a good sense of self while in your male mode, but not while expressing your feminine side. Is there a fear below the surface? A fear of offending her, if you took a stand? A fear you may lose someone who is so good for your femme side? Something else? You will have to figure that one out. If you don't know for sure - guess, you'll probably guess right.

I feel better with my wife being more dominant in decision making. I think she is better at it than me (I am too disorganized) and being happy with my feminine side keep me from caring about who "wears the pants" in the family.

Arguing is useful, if done right. Most importantly, it should never lead to statements intended to hurt the other person. Also, it is not about deciding who is right or wrong. Compromise is very important. Try reading a self-help book on constructive arguing.

My Rhonda,

Jonianne is totally right. The term "emasculated" carries with it so many negative connotations, that you lose if you even think of yourself that way. You are not an emasculated male. You are you. You have as much power, as much of a right to your opinion as anyone else - male or female. There is no "male" or "female" arguing. There is only two people having a disagreement.

I think the real issue here is your belief that to be a woman is to be powerless, weak, less of a person. That is so not true! I know many powerful women, and the one thing they have in common is the belief that they are as good as any man, which is a convenient belief as it is totally true.

Sure, women's clothes are not as functional, and more decorative than men's clothes. From high heels to long nails to tight skirts, women's clothing does make one feel more vulnerable. Under those clothes, though, is the same person. Rhonda, I am me - and just as forceful as I need to be - whether I'm wearing my favorite stilettos and a pretty dress, or a military uniform, helmet, and Kevlar. You are you as well.

Kathi

Madilyn,
It's not that she's emasculated me. I don't think that's ever been her intention. I don't even know that I'd say she's more dominant. We make great girlfriends, and that part of the relationship couldn't be more wonderful. Thing is, we have real life stuff to deal with just like any other couple. It's the real life stuff that I'm so ill equipped to handle en femme. If crossdressing was an occasional thing when were together it'd be different, but it's not. It's practically all the time. Believe me, I understand that that's what most of us would love, or think we would. Me too. As with a lot of other things, though, once you get it you find that it comes with it's own set of real issues. This sense of weakness and emasculation is something that takes place entirely in my own head. It's not in any way something she puts on me. To her we're just having a disagreement. It's my hangup. She indulges my girl side because she knows how much I love it, and she happens to like it, too. Not to purposely subordinate me. I feel like I need to go change clothes so we can have a normal disagreement, but that's all on me, not her.

I have noticed the similar issue that it is hard to assert my opinion when I am dressed. Dressing up makes me feeling vulnerable because of the female role. It is a little hard to shake that feeling aside, but it can be done. Of course I always weight in the risks, such as being exposed unexpectly, etc.

One other note, being flexible is a great thing to have in someone you will live/work with and make many decisions together (in family or in work). But that's just my personal opinion. I like calling the shots of my life. But on the other hand, nothing is perfect in life.

Rhonda,
This is a very heartfelt message and I feel a lot of sympathy for your situation. I have the feeling that this may not be so much about your abilities when crossdressed as perhaps about a loss of your male persona. Perhaps you haven't found your balance yet.

And I suspect you already know what you want to do.

Liz

Jonianne,
I'm certain that the "healthy sense of self" is an issue. Sometimes it's hard for me to see my fem self as someone deserving of respect.

Kathi,
You are exactly right on all your points. That's why I said what I did about it seeming derogutory. This is just a manifestation of a point that has been driven home to me time and time again over the past several months. My girl side is and always has been a refuge, and I want it to continue to be. It kind of messes up the whole escape from reality thing when I have to deal with real difficulties during my girl time. It messes with my head. I'm not good at it and I don't want to do it. I thought I might get better at it, but so far I'm not. In fact I think I'm getting worse at it because I anticipate it and dread it. We're having a pretty rough go of it right now, and none of it has anything to do with crossdressing, which given my history is pretty odd in itself. I apparently make a good girlfriend, but I pretty much suck at being a boyfriend (particulary when I'm dressed like a girlfriend).

I think I understand. Dressing is an escape for me, that's why I'm not totally out to my wife. I'm a little scared she might want to be involved which will remove some of the escsape aspect for me. In your case, your escape is extended and you feel forced to stay in that mode because your wife enables it. What about telling your wife, to hold off on the discussion until later when you are in male mode... That way you can let the emotions calm down as well as give yourself a fighting chance. The other thing to do, is try listening to everything she says until she has finished the whole story, then you talk and ask her to listen...

Rhonda -

I know exactly how you feel. Simply being in girl clothes made me extremely uncomfortable during arguments with my ex, to the point of feeling foolish, or stupid, somehow.

I remember though, when I was seven and learned I needed glasses. For many, many years, I would hate getting into arguments, or trouble, or so forth, while wearing glasses. It made me feel foolish....or stupid, somehow. I've since decided that I felt foolish or whatever because I wasn't comfortable wearing glasses...although I really enjoyed seeing things clearly, it took a while for them to just be a reflexive part of me instead of something I was constantly aware of and thinking about, especially while under duress.

I made the same assessment for myself about feeling goofy being in emotionally charged arguments while in a dress. I think that as time has gone by, the issue has lessened because dressing like a girl used to be an event instead of merely something that happened naturally.

I've found the more natural it has become, the easier it is to not feel silly during arguments. Well...not for wearing a dress, anyways. Lots of other reasons to feel silly, after all... :p

JMTC - Rhonda, I really feel for you. It seems you have achieved a relationship (girlfriends) that most think they would die for. The rub is the she apparently is not interested in the boyfriend arrangement and perhaps you really aren't either. There are no masculine or feminine communication skills, but the message seems clear. You need to decide what is most important to you, then see if you can find the middle. Your appearance is not at issue unless you make it one.

The real problem comes down to perpetuating stereotypes even in ourselves. I was your "typical" submissive CD when I first came out, thinking that's what I had to be but I was far from happy. Along the way I evloved, however. My Ericka self eventually became more aggressive and assertive than my Richard self. After a time all of these aspects in myself merged into one overall persona. Now it matters very little how I choose to present as I'm always the same person. I can be calm and sweet but strong and assertive at the same time. You have to really get to know yourself to do that without being afraid or ashamed and then you can convey your thoughts and feelings with equal effectiveness in either mode. Works for me Hon.:)

Hi Rhonda,
I don't think your post was venting; it was pretty clear about the dilemma you're facing.

All couples disagree. We are not mirror reflections of one another. The trick is finding ways to compromise.
I appreciate what you say about not knowing how to argue while being fluid in your gender. If a person is on the path to a more meaningful interaction with the world around her (or him), they will always question their last disagreement, and how to do it better next time....we learn as we go.

There is a great book that I like about this called "Verbal Judo: the Gentle Art of Persuasion". I learned alot from it, and the techniques in the book are very effective.
But sometimes an argument isn't about what it seems: the argument over money may actually be about someone not pulling their weight in the relationship, or about control, or something else.
If you can step back a bit from your own feelings during the next disagreement, maybe you'll see some of those issues at play in your case.
You are in a great position now to recreate your own self given your movement back and forth from masculine to feminine and points inbetween. You don't have to one gender or another to hold your own in a disagreement, you just have to be clear headed.
Your posts shows you've already got that going for you.

Chris

Sounds like she is in love with Rhonda but not the male you. Maybe what you really need a weekend completely in male mode. If that means brings everything you need to wear yourself and taking all polish off. As a guy you are programmed to understand how to deal with these situations but not as a girl. So you need to change the rules back to what you are familiar with and then have those discussions. My guess is that this relationship won't last but there is no finding out until you have that talk in male mode. You apparently need all the male clues for you to have both feet back on the ground and not up in the pink fog. Good luck

Great info from previous posts! Life can be very confusing - especially for those of us that carry desires to be both genders. Communication, listening, and compromise are items that are needed to build a good relationship. From there it takes constant "work" and understanding to keep things running smoothly. You are the same person in your mind, regardless of your outside packaging and should not let your dressing change that! Take some time to talk to your partner, telling her what you have told us. There is ALWAYS a solution!

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies everybody. Now that I've had a chance to sleep on it I'm not so wound up about it. Just to clarify, we do have a traditional male/female relationship. She encourages me to crossdress, but certainly doesn't demand it. When she comes to my house (which is rare) there's not much full-on cding. If I'm at her house and we work around the house and don't go out there's very little. It has been wonderful to openly add crossdressing to our relationship and to our ordinary lives. If I didn't want to do it, she'd be fine with that. It's just that it's become so frequent, so accepted as part of our lives together, and such a matter of fact that often when ordinary life presents itself I'm probably going to be en femme, to one extent or another, when that occurs. The only time that that seems to be a serious negative for me is when we have a disagreement. Crossdressing isn't just sitting around looking pretty anymore. There are things that come up and things that have to be done. It'd be kind of like working on the car in a dress and makeup and heels. I can do it, it just would seem odd and out of character.

One of the first few times we were ever out with me in full-on girl mode we had taken a trip out of town for the day. Shopping, lunch, movies, etc.. I almost never wear a dress. Not because I don't like them, it's just hard to find one to fit at the shoulders and hips. But this day I was really feeling it, and I wore my one go-to dress. We came out of the mall and saw anti-freeze dripping under the car. A radiator hose had sprung a leak right at the clamp at the radiator. No big deal. I had a knife in the console, and all I had to do was cut the hose off behind the leak and put it back on. Three minutes tops. No way I was going to do that on the mall parking lot in a dress. We drove to a (closed) bank parking lot and parked in the most hidden spot, walked to the restauraunt next door to have lunch and let the car cool down. When we went back to the car it took no time to fix it, but my hands were shaking so bad! Nobody stopped to help, than goodness. My heart was pounding when I got back in the car. Not because someone might see me in a dress. I'd been out in public all day. Not because I didn't know how to fix the car. That was easy. It was because it was out of character. A combination of my male and female roles and identities that made me very self conscious.

I thought I had done about everything a person could do as a crossdresser. I was wrong. Real life... that's what I hadn't done. It takes some getting used to.

At 5'9 140 pounds I've never been an imposing figure.
Rhonda, you may live among giants, but where I come from, 5'9 is average height for a male and 140 is a healthy weight for that height. So I'm thinking maybe you have self-image problems as a man which affect your assertiveness.
And being an imposing figure or otherwise is not about bulk, it's about personality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ruth

At 5'9 140 pounds I've never been an imposing figure.
Rhonda, you may live among giants, but where I come from, 5'9 is average height for a male and 140 is a healthy weight for that height. So I'm thinking maybe you have self-image problems as a man which affect your assertiveness.
And being an imposing figure or otherwise is not about bulk, it's about personality.

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Nope. Not a self image problem as a male as far as my size goes. If I have a self image problem as a male it's because of things I've done to myself... hair, eyebrows, nails. My point was I've never commanded respect as a male simply because of my size. Now, if I were hanging around Kathi I'd feel like a giant, but usually I'm the skinniest male in any group. For that matter I'm usually among the skinniest of females in any group.

Emasculate,

Yet another term I despise.

Shaking while fixing your car in a dress - that's a perfect example.

You still possess the skill to fix a radiator hose (and also the other kind of hose I guess), but it is nerve wrecking to do it in a dress, isn't it? The car did not make it any harder to be fixed (whether you are in dress or not). It is all in your mind! You see, the outside world is the same, but you see it and react to it very differently when you are in dress.

The argument with your gf is the same. Maybe she is just arguing like every other girl. With you, maybe she argues the same way whether you dress in male or female mode. The difference you felt may be only in your own mind. And you need to look inward to find the cause and change it if you want to.

To me, that is part of the fun of dressing. It lets me venture into an adventure in a part of mental world that I don't normally have access to.

Rhonda -
Before I get started…I suppose you realize that many on this forum would kill to be in your place? And to have a female who’s 100% supportive and even encouraging? Priceless…

My take on what you’ve said is that possibly you’ve waded into the pool a bit deeper than you originally intended to and now you’re discovering that maybe the grass wasn’t all that green after all? There are good and bad things about voluntarily feminizing yourself. Most girls are just naturally more submissive, fragile, vulnerable, etc.
Lots of people here would say that being emasculated isn’t a bad thing at all, and quite the contrary.
Maybe you just have to decide if you can have your cake and eat it too?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Emasculate,

Yet another term I despise.

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I've noticed there are lots of things you seem to despise.

Jennifer, Yes, I do realize that. I wished for it for a long time myself, and certainly didn't expect to find it. In some ways it has been a little more than I bargained for. I know this makes me sound like (more of) a nutcase, but prior to now Rhonda existed in this little perfectly ordered happy place (OMG this is sounding nutier as I go!) with all my favorite things and favorite activities with none of the normal concerns of real life. "Just smile and look pretty and everybody will like you" was about as complicated of a thought as was required for that world. That's not real and I know it and I knew it then. That was part of the beauty and joy of it. Since I started openly crossdressing around my gf, crossdressing no longer has a time and place all to itself. I haven't learned how to deal with the collision of the two worlds.

Leslie, you are correct that she does not say or do anything differently regardless of how I'm dressed. It's definately in my own head.

( overlooking what the arguments might be about ) You need to talk to a therapist about this. whether self-esteem or confusion about WHO you are ( you sound like you're thinking you're two different people ).

Hi Karen,
It's not that I think I'm two different people. That's just the only way I could think of to articulate the difference between drab and enfemme.

When women felt men were too domininate they created the womens movement and stood up for equal rights. Not all women agree with that and prefer things as they were before. Where do you stand. You need to decide if you want to be a June Cleaver and accept your destiny or a Hillary Clinton and carve your own future or some where in between. Decide for yourself; no one can decide for you.

Seems more to be a problem of doing anything manly, when dressed feminine.

Note, however, that these "manly" acts are not relegated only for men. Women can fix cars, argue, make decisions, etc. etc.

It appears you need to change your mindset regarding what men do as compared to women. How to do that is the question.

Might want to start with consulting a therapist. I doubt anyone here is qualified to help. For example, I'd just say do what needs doing, period. But that probably wouldn't help, and is probably something you've already thought of.

Rhonda, you might consider seeing a therapist to help you integrate both your female and male personas?

:hugs:

Edit I have another resource, but only if it fits. Have a look (specifically at the patterns, under the main definition):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency

If you think it applies, there are many books in self-help sections that address the issue effectively. Also, there is CODA (Codependents Anonymous), for people who believe their codependent patterns are excessive, to the point where their lives are negatively impacted.

I would guess that in this kind of situation you are going to have to learn to tear down that wall seperating the "people" in you head. If you enjoy dressing as much as it seems, then this is not just "dress up time for fun". You are TG of some variety and should try to learn how to function as Rhonda in society. It's much easier to suggest this, much harder to set your mind in motion to change how it thinks about Rhonda time. Try to do it a little at a time, maybe not an argument, but something equal utilitarian and not fun.

"We disagree on so much. Money, family, places to live..."


My ex and I were totally happy until we married and started living together. Then we found out "we disagreed on so much." We went to couples therapy and learned fair fighting 101, and it cooled the room temperature a lot. But it didn't change the fundamental fact that "we disagreed on so much." We both are now much happier apart.

Whether or not you are in womens dress is not the issue. Arguing is one of the easiest things that you can do to get your point across. Is there some kind of psychological need for you to be in women's attire while going out to do things with this woman? I mean, you make it sound pretty easy, to just not wear womens clothing before an outing with her, in order to "gain the upper hand" during one of your spats.

My solution? Both of you should take a break from each other for a little while. If her constant support is met by the back of her hand (figuratively), then more likely than not, that support is generally not worth it. She seems to be an intelligent person, so she obviously knows that when she does this, it makes you feel awful, and she gets something out of your misery.
You should take a break, and spend a few weeks remembering what made crossdressing so special to you in the first place. See where that takes you.

I can't see anywhere in Rhonda's posts where she even comes close to suggesting that her gf is giving her a figurative backhander. She says that there are things on which she and her gf disagree, so it is normal for the gf to want to discuss those things when they are together rather than trying to discuss them with Rhonda when she is not there.

In more than one post, Rhonda has pointed out that these discussions are not about her gf wanting to gain the upper hand. She also pointed out that the problem was insider her (Rhonda's) head. So I feel that the criticism of her gf is both unfair and unwarranted.

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Rhonda,you say you feel mentally unequipped to argue when you are presenting en femme, have you mentioned that to your gf outside of one of these heated discussions? It might be useful to sit down with her and tell her how you feel, but do it at a time when you are not discussing something about which you disagree. From what you have written your gf is merely discussing the subject and accepts you fully as Rhonda while she is doing that. Talking through your feelings with her in a non-confrontational manner might help you to be able to express yourself better when one of these subjects comes up again. It will certainly help her to understand you better.

Don't know if what I have written will make any sense to you or not, but I hope it does.

Just ran across this and couldn't resist chiming in. If I were to dress as often as you are able to; I think I'd be (and I hope it's not a slur) a bit of dyke that is a very "male" woman. Male in interests and actions, female in thoughts, culture and attitudes. Both of my sisters are this was, as is my mom ( a real "dyke" ). Perhaps it is the woman in you who is maturing; recognizing her place in the real world. We've all spent so much time in some sense pretending to be male or pushing aside our female tendencies that it's uncomfortable when we have to meld the to as we of course do in real life. We're not two separate individuals but have to reconcile our various tendencies. Maybe your female side is incorporating your male side and meeting your male persona half way.

Fixing the hose on your car is an example- not something that's done in a dress normally but part of you and a lot of women these days would be better off if they cut pull it off. So to me it's a ability to celebrate- a special skill- you should examine to see if you're uncomfortable with it per se or just because it's your notion of feminity coming to face with reality. Maturing as real woman.

The arguments, well lots of couples struggle with the movement from romantic to sustainable love. Having one without sacrificing the other is tough for all relationships. Do you love her or the freedom you have with her? What do you think she feels about you? It could be a deep incompatibility, it could just be growing pains.