Yesterday, I was reading a post about companies who are LGBT friendly, and it got me thinking. Have any of you girls gone to a job interview in boy mode with nails (painted/french manicure..etc) and high heels? If so, how did it go? I so just want to move out of state and start from scratch.
Hugs,
Prettyboy
There is LGBT friendly and there is LGBT friendly. And for big companies, it can vary by site/work location. And a 100% rating from HRC doesn't mean much. At the company I work for, (100% HRC rating) transgender employees are not allowed much leeway for gender bending. You must exhibit all the time as either one gender or the other gender. I have taken it to the max where I work. I present every day as a guy with boobs and long hair. Wearing a skirt is unacceptable.
How do I know I have reached the limit? Two meetings with HR and one with Security. It seems you must present as male or female, are not allowed to switch back and forth, must follow standard rules when transitioning, and after transitioning, you must coordinate all activities with HR where you would be coming in contact with employess that do not know about your transition "for your own safety" as HR says.
At the HR meetings I have been asked when I plan to transition, which I do not plan to do, I am a gender bender, not planning on any SRS. Company actions lead me to believe I will be terminated if I present as my prefered gender expression.
Deanna
Never. But especially in this economy. Even with a "friendly" company... I think I'd dress how they want me to dress rather than how I wanted to dress.. Rather be able to live comfortably and afford to by pretty things than starve to death in an old dress and heels.. Lol.
Well put Karren! not only do we have to pick our battles, we have to time them also....and i would definately not play games in this economy.
hugs
msniki48
The scenario presented sounds like the stuff of fantasy rather than the action of anyone who would be serious about acquiring a new job. I can't think of anything good that could come of it.
I agree that in these economic times, it is not such a good idea to present yourself as you have described. I think that it messes with other people's minds. Keep in mind that when you get an interview, the person who you talk to "wants to hire you" and during the time you are with them they have a checklist either mental or on the clipboard that the do the "Ben Franklin". When one or several checks go on the negative side, the interviewer keeps looking.
I think that in LGBT, the 'L' is okay, the 'G' is okay, the 'B' is okay, and if you are a 'T' (transsexual or transitioning one way or the other) that is okay; but I think that when the interviewer gets an idea that you are dressing up "like on Halloween" everyday in the workplace, that it becomes a hugh checkmark on the wrong side of the ledger.
I think that if you dress 24/7 and present as female, no matter where you are in the LGBT spectrum, the company will accept you as female. They don't need to know whether you are surgically altered; I don't think they ask prospective female employees if their boobs are real or if they have had a hysterectomy.
It would be interesting if any of the girls who interview dressed, at the end of the interview, looked directly in the interviewer's eyes and asked point blank if the way they presented themselves at that time or in the future would affect they way that they could perform the necessary functions of the position.
If I am reading right, you are not even talking about being dressed completely in female mode but are mixing it up. So let's put ourselves in the interviewer's seat. I am completely LGBT friendly. But I see you come to the interview in mixed gender mode. Now where is my mind going to be? Am I seeing someone that is going to be inconsistent on the job as they are presenting to me? I know it shouldn't matter, but many might think that way and can you afford it? Do I have any idea what surprises may be in my future?
And I know you are saying "you just said the company is completely LGBT friendly" and you are right. But the realities are more along the line that there is the interview and hiring process and then there is dealing with those already on the payrolls. Those companies that are advanced, handle those on the payrolls much better. But the hiring process? I wouldn't count on it too much.
Even with accepting companies, the presentation at a job interview should be pristine. You are trying to impress one or a group of people so that you get selected over the rest of the applicants. I know anything that falls across gender boundaries shouldn't matter, but the fact is that adding a differentiator is a job killer. Just so you know where I am coming from, I always wear a suit to an interview. I feel anything can get you knocked off the "hire" side of the list, so I don't want to give them any ammunition. Maybe I take it too far, but I have done quite well with interviews.
I have to say, this thread was very disappointing but not unexpected.
I was so hoping at least one person would say with all truth behind them that they indeed went to a job interview dressed how they wished. But instead I am hearing the same old same old. "Hide" "blend in" "Do what the job wants no matter how irrational" and of course "there is lgbt friendly and there is lgbt friendly" (I loved that one, almost on par with "we had to destroy the village to save the village" )
To the person that always wears a suit to an interview, you do know that many places actually consider that a con. Now being OVERDRESSED for the interview is damaging to your chances.
Frankly it should not matter what you are wearing, but we have allowed image to be waaaay the hell too important in our society to the point qualified people are passed over for being in the wrong attire while a real moron is hired.
When I did a job interview for my shop, I looked at the person's experience, how many years they had been working on aircraft, what shops they had worked at, what aircraft type and models they had serviced. Then I asked them pertinent questions about what they supposedly worked on. I did not give a flying fig if they were in a Georgio Armani suit, or Levis jeans. To my understanding many places are FINALLY taking a similar tact.
Deeingeorgia, I would check in with the ACLU about the practices of your company, I have a feeling some rights of yours were stomped on, and illegally so. Cannot be sure though. There are examples of men and women just dressing horribly, and I cannot know if you did this or not. Actually upon reading this line one more time "At the HR meetings I have been asked when I plan to transition, which I do not plan to do, I am a gender bender, not planning on any SRS. Company actions lead me to believe I will be terminated if I present as my prefered gender expression." I would most definitely think your rights are stomped on, especially if there is a female working there that looks "butch"
Sue, your first line kinda hit me wrong "mixing it up" Women do this all the time, however it is now acceptable for them to do such. Women used to be expected to wear skirts and hose and heels to ANY job interview, now, not so much. It is very common for women to wear slacks and flats to an interview....and get the job.
Now, am I saying I have gone to a job interview in my stuff? Well, considering my last job interview was going on 10 years ago for United airlines (all my other jobs were word of mouth, and for those I just wore jeans, and one time leggings), the atmosphere was much different. For that interview I wore black jeans, a gray colorless shirt, Off black hose, and dress shoes (yes the hose were visible), and a black leather jacket. They did not care, they however did ask me about the operating systems of aircraft pressurization systems, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, and so on and so forth. I got that job and may have still had it had certain religious fanatics not flown OUR (all four were United birds) planes into three buildings and a field.
Speaking as a Crossdresser When it comes down to providing for your family and putting a roof over your head,I think I would be sticking to making sure I get the job before starting to mix it up in the way you describe.the nature of Interviews is such that every move you make Is scrutinised,that may not be fair in some respects considering ability to do the job should count more,but needs must especially in the difficult economic climate across the world at present
:hugs:Sophie
LGBT friendly or not; The best advice I have ever heard is when you go to an interview, dress in whatever is appropriate for you to start work immediately. So if you are applying for a job where a suit and tie is required, then dress in a suit and tie. If you are going to hammer nails and build houses, wear what is right for that job.
I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel... If I own a business where an employee will be dealing with my customers in person, then I as an employer would not hire anyone that does not dress his or her gender. I would not risk business failure just to allow a guy to wear makeup and a dress. You have to face facts, the general public is not ready for men to dress and act feminine in public. No way would I chance ruining my business.
So if a crossdresser came into my office for an interview with noticeably feminine appearance ( heels makeup or whatever), I would not hire him and chance offending and running off my customers. Oh, and I am GLBT friendly. But not in my work place.
Being LGBT friendly or not doesn't mean the doesn't have a dress code. I think that's a mistake some people make today. To me LGBT friendly means, we don't care what you are outside the company but while your at work we expect you to project the image of the company we expect..
Very good point. I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by sherib
Wow Brandy, how utterly hypocritical of you. You make me look like I am completely open.
With more people with that kind of attitude men will always be limited in their expression.
You see, that kind of attitude is not just in the workplace, but also outside. What if one of your customers sees one of your workers away from work wearing the clothing of the opposite gender, mush like how I an Rye of the dead do? What if that customer complained to you about that employee based on what they saw? Would you fire that employee due to the lost business? You lost that business based on the bigotry of your customer, which would be no different than if the employee wore what they liked to work.
People seem to have forgotten, we spend much of our waking lives at work. We are there, and many usually hate it. Others love it. I for one like my job, I don't love it, there are many other things I would like to do. When we are at those jobs we are most likely wearing something we would much rather not. Thankfully my job is very open in what I wear. Can I wear a skirt? Nope. Unfortunately with attitudes like the one expressed here, will be sure to stop me ever having that choice.
What image is it they expect? Once will you allow a woman to wear pants (once considered entirely unprofessional for a woman to wear to work), but say to a fellow CD "nope you can't wear that skirt suit, that does look good on you, but you know...the customers.)
I have been served by people with face jewlery, visible tats, ear grommets on guys (at a bank no less!!). It in no way effects my view on the institution. I personally hate to hear of companies saying no jewlery on men, and no visible tats on any employee. Once again these policies are based on fear of what the customer may think. Is it possible those fears are the same as the ones we have of revealing our little "hobby"?
By the way Brandy, this quote "Chains must first bind the heart. Freedom does not come with being released from your chains, but rather in the security of being bound tightly by them". is rather disturbing for someone that is supposedly trying to break social taboos (chains)
Pythos, I agree with what you have said: the qualifications for the position SHOULD be what the interviewer should be looking for BUT if several prospective employees have similar qualifications then it boils down to how well the prospect fits into the work environment and associates with the clientel. I wish it could be the way you have described but it just isn't.
As a high school teacher and coach, I would not keep my job nor get another with another school district unless I completely transitioned and then I might have a very difficult time. I am not argueing with you but just stating what I think the world is like.
Wow. That company is way out of line if they consider themselves LGBT friendly. Obviously 100% HRC rating is just window dressing with this company.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeInGeorgia;LGBT2334000
If you didn't need the job so badly you might be able to sue the company for harassment for the prying questions of "when you plan to transition".
Are you in general contact with the public with your job? If not, there is no reason for the company to treat you the way they have, unless they are looking for ways to reduce head count.
I think the best way to get companies to treat their employees better is for the government to pursue policies to create new jobs. Then the employees would not be so much under the thumb of their employers.
Now we live under an economy that has an unacceptably high unemployment rate - i.e., a depression. You sure do not want to jeopardize your chance of being hired by having painted nails or wearing heels while being in boy mode. Again, if employment was better there would be greater leeway.
As much as some of us might like to believe otherwise, or wish that change was closer than it really is, let us operate under a basic assumption...
In corporate America, the cookie cutter image is huge.
There, I said it. And it's unrefutable.
I work in this environment. Short of transition, I'm not about to present while wearing anything overtly feminine for a multitude of reasons, most of which have to do with protecting my family.
But let the record reflect that as I have ranted elsewhere, I took my long hair into two corporate interviews with one firm thus far with no consequence. A third is on the horizon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythos
Will I cut it short simply for an interview? Not a chance.
What if I'm given an offer that I cannot refuse? Something that for my family I have no choice but to accept? I've let it be known in a roundabout way that yes, I will cut it all off.
Such is the world we live in. There are trails to be blazed. I guess some of us have what it takes to do so. But I'll go back to the original premise of this thread. Going to a corporate interview in heels, and even a French manicure, is pure lunacy if one desires employment.
Pythos said:sorry you think it's hypocritical Pythos, but apparently you have never invested thousands of dollars, time and sweat into your own business. I have. It's not hypocritical, it's reality, common sense. No one should have the right to ruin someone's business by driving off clients and customers by dressing in a way that would disturb most people. And only a foolish business man or woman would risk it. I'm talking small business here, not big corporate America or jobs where workers, such as mfg plants, assembly lines do not put those workers out where they have face to face contact with customers.Quote:
Wow Brandy, how utterly hypocritical of you. You make me look like I am completely open.
With more people with that kind of attitude men will always be limited in their expression.
As for one of my customers seeing an employee of my company out away from work dressed any way they choose, now I'd back that employee's right to do as he or she pleases on there own time. No they would not be fired. They were not representing the company while seen out, so it is not my concern for the one bigoted customer.
With your flag waving stand on what someone looks like, then I guess it should be OK for all of them to be naked as well. To hell what others think and the business failing right? There is a time and a place for everything, a time and a place to be naked. But at the expense of ruining a business's reputation makes no sense at all. Change is happening, slowly but surely. But it will not happen if all businesses and those that want to dress differently throw all caution to the wind and lose jobs and business to satisfy the mostly unacceptable mannor of dress by a very small percentage of people.
Sure it would be great of we all can dress and act as we please and be accepted by all, but clearly that is not reality. It's a long way off.
BTW, I am not one that is trying to break social taboos. I'm glad some are, but it does not fit into my life to be so open or get fired for wearing a skirt to work. I'm happy keeping it very private. To each there own.
And you sure twisted the meaning of "chains from my quote. Those chains are emotional chains, not the kind you think would be OK to wear to work.
This is the type of thread that gets emotional quickly. Pythos, yes the emphasis on hiring should be on qualifications and ability to do the job. The reality is that those are usually the least important attributes that hiring managers look at. Hiring is done a lot of the time on just the gut feel of the person doing the interview good or bad. Brandy, some businesses do have restrictions on what employees wear even when on personal time, these are usually for those that through their job are known in public and how they are percieved can effect the company reputation.
Personally, my husband and I own our own electrical contracting company. We also do interior design and decorating. With 90+ employees we have 15 that are members in the LGBT community and/or the GOTH lifestyle. What we ask of all of them is when they are on the job that they remember that not all accept or condone them. To use their own judgement on what they see as appropiate for representing our company. In almost 20 years we have had only two complaints from customers about any of their appearence.
Yes, it is a balancing act that we all must do in order to survive in these economic times. How we present does matter to many, right or wrong life requires sacrifices be made. That is what makes one an adult and not a child, to make those choices and sacrifices for yourself and your loved ones.
Danni
That's how it is where I work. If you are transitioning TS you stand a better chance of keeping your job (they can lay anyone off due to lack work these days) ... if you just want to push the boundaries of feminine expression but still present and be referred to and be known as a guy ... well good luck with that one (that's to say, that's how it is where I work) :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeInGeorgia
Oh ... and to answer the OP's question. No, I haven't gone to an interview in boy mode with a French manicure and/or high heels. I needed the job.
Where I work they have very good policies, if I turned up for work today and said I was a cross dresser they would be ok with it because it is acceptable within our policy, they celebrate and encourage diversity. Problem is I wear a uniform and it is really designed for a man and even the prettiest of girls look awful in it. The reality of what my work mates would think might be different to the policy but they would have to accept it or be disciplined.
I know this as most people laugh if you talk about cross dressers, they feel safe to do that as they think I would be the last person to do it as I am very 'male'.
I tested my theory once when I was involved in an interview selection course. I was acting as an interviewee testing the people who were getting their qualification in interviewing skills, I was told to ask some awkward questions at the end of the interview. So I sat there and answered the questions asked and the lead interviewer asked if I had any questions for them. I told them I was a cross dresser and if I got the job would it be ok, they were all clearly shocked and then one said it's absolutely ok. Afterwards they all said they would not like to have to deal with that in reality but one of the girls did come round to the idea and said why not abd I think wound be genuinely supportive from now, needless to say I like her.
The selection process that looks at skills and work history takes place long before any interview comes around that is checked with the resume and why the resume is so important. The interview is mostly to see and hear the potential employee and see how well they might fit into the workplace and work with the others that are there already. Pythos, if you even got into an interview based upon a resume your history has already been taken into account and is given its credit. During the interview having anything that sticks out and might not produce a harmonious and pleasant work situation is going to be counted against you.
All of this makes me glad I am self employed, as much as I complain about it, and even though I still have to meet others' expectations to some extent to have work.
When a company has a "GLBT policy", how does anyone know the "T" really means anything? It may just in there for politically correct lip service, or because they were pressured by some group or something to add it, it doesn't necessarily mean the corporate culture really cares a wit about TG folks. It may sincerely care, but just having the "T" in the policy doesn't mean they do. Or, for that matter, what does and does not quality as "T"? Does "T" cover a pre-transition TS? Or a post transition TS? Does it cover a TV who dresses outside of work? Does it protect a TV who wants to come to work dressed, and if so, can they go back and forth?
It is a fight for survival in this world. It is unfortunate, but those who dress gender conforming are more likely to get and keep a job. Some folks are in a position where they can take a stand and be themselves and thrive and prosper, but most folks can't. If one can, that is fantastic and they deserve credit for it. It isn't "right" that a man can't wear a skirt to work, certainly it isn't in my opinion; it is a matter of survival and if the hands that can feed you demand gender conformity most have to do what the hands say.
When it comes to working in a company, a friend quipped, "Anything that can be used against you, almost certainly will be used against you." Don't make it harder to get and keep a job than it already is.
yes as some here have said not to play around here, the economy is a great way to a get "fresh" employee. (that might even work for less money).
but also some jobs just do not work very well with heels, go to a job interview in heels will not get you that truck driver or warehouse job. need to dress correctly for the job you are looking for. (even if you are a gg) some times bending the rules just does not quite work as you would think.
there is no chance in h**** that i would go to a job interview dressed part or wholly. in any way. just dressed for the job, = jeans and shirt, with work boots.(steel toed).
if i were to show up in a skirt and heels a wig and looking cute. the interview would be very short and no job. if a real gg showed up dressed the same way, she would get a longer interview...but still no job. sometimes the clothing you have on will say to the "boss" yes or no more than your paperwork.
would you try for a job as a office manger and show up dressed in worn out jeans and a dirt T-shirt and flip-flops?
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I've just started a job as a barmaid at a local club, so nails were important! and heels! I've done a couple of nights so far and it's been great: chatted up a couple of times but no real issues thus far!
I'm wondering why you would want to do that other than to prove a point or make a statement to a potential employer?:)
This is actually an amazingly important point to bring into the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vickie_CDTV
Playing dress-up by way of heels and a manicure in guy mode for a job interview is just that, a game. Those who identify as "T", who are full time and are faced with the prospects of finding employment, are living it for real and often have it incredibly difficult. These individuals can be let go or not hired in the first place for a myriad of reasons, none of which have to be related to the "T".
I am all for the breaking of barriers when it comes to gender issues. However, we should be mindful of the big picture which Vickie has so eloquently stated.
I agree, so if you want to dress for an interview it should beat a placethat would actualy encourage you to crossdress. Maybe a makeup store, some salons... But be sure about it so you don't ruin a good opportunity to find work. A workday is often just 8 hours, so making some $$ so you can , as Karren put it, buy nice clothes to wear for the remaining 16 may be a better route. Now have you considered womens apparel retail? Most have great employee discounts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
Brandy, I don't think your hypocritical. I think your dead on. People today think you can show up at a job interview dressed anyway they want and expect a company to hire them just on there skills. unfortunatly that's not so. When you walk in the door the first thing your judged by is you apperence. That first impression can determine weather the interviewer likes you or not, or consider you for the position. No matter what it is. Then even if you have the qualifications your then considered on how you will fit in with the rest of the staff. If they consider you a problem, I don't care what your cradentials are, your not going to get the job. Also remember, most people are employees at will.
I was in a training seminar years ago for my then employer, which was being put on by the HR department. They were talking about discrimination in the work place. One of the scenarios they described was a job interview, where the candidate was male, and dressed as such in every way except he had ankle socks on with little fuzzy balls at the back of them. You've seen the type. He was perfect for the job in every respect; well qualified, lots of experience, solid track record with prior employers, and he meshed very well with the people he interviewed with. But, a number of people who interviewed him raised concern about the socks. The HR person giving us the training told us it was a real scenario; she'd been one of the interviewers. They hired him, but it took time for them to get to the decision because of the socks. He ended up working out very well for the company.
The basic point here is of course you can go to an interview dressed however you want. But, you can not control how the company will respond to the way you look, and regardless of how well qualified you are for the position, you might not get hired because of how you present yourself. If I were interviewing for a job I didn't need, I might consider going en femme. But, if I'm interviewing it means I need a job. So, that's not going to happen.
I work for a medium-sized UK organisation (nope not saying which one) andI do quite a lot of interviewing. W are genuinely an equal opportunities employer and it would be regarded as shocking of someone was disadvantaged because of the gender of their clothing. A candidate would be expected to be well-dressed, so I believe a man in an elegant skirt, tights and heels would be judged the same way as a woman in an elegenat skirt, tights and heels. If he had boobs, make-up and wig as well he would have to be that bit better at it for the simple reason we want people who are credible and competent and that extends to presentation - it does not mean you have to pass. OK, this hasn't been tested yet, but we have one MTF TS (appointed as M) and no problems. I just know we have a very politically correct attitude. Interestingly, interview panels sem to agree on almost everything so our policies are clrealy well-established.