OK, the thread on "friends" made me think...
So, has coming to terms with yourself effected the way you view men?
This is not a question of whether or not you are attracted to men, this is your perception of them and/or their activities on a daily basis.
Nope! I've always thought they were smelly, icky, hairy, and gross. My opinion has not changed.
:)
Kathi
+100 I concurQuote:
Originally Posted by Kathi Lake
I see where you are coming from Kitty but the truth is there are bad men and good men.
I have two adult sons that are very nice and would never demean women.
Fore all the bad people, male or female, there are a lot more good people.
SUZY
There are some very nice people out there... there are also many monsters... I am drawn to the nice ones...
nothing changed everything feels normal
I have always disliked the treatment of women from friends,people at work and other men. As years have gone by,my time around them has become been very short
I agree and might add that I don't see what women find attractive in a man. But I am one and happy my wife finds me attractive...no matter what I may wear. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathi Lake
No offense Kitty, but Suzy's comment holds true regardless of country, if you dislike american men than it is an issue of perception and culture, broad paint strokes often paint the wrong picture.
As to the OP, yes my feelings are different, but i'm not about to characterize men as a bunch of beer swiling, moronic, sexual beasts. I find that i see the bad traits much easier today but is of no use to be judgemental towards my fellow man just because i'm more in tune with my feminine self.
Other than my all male family who i am very close with, i don't hang out with males and would rather not, no dislike involved, i just feel more at peace among women.
My current seasonal job is full of young testosterone driven and sadly unintelligent guys, so it does take a toll on me mentally, but i need to focus on what i can change in myself.
The meetings i attend almost daily are a place where it is typical to find men hugging men, and it has taken a while to get them trained to settle with a good hand shake from me. I still get the odd look ocassionally, especially when i turn around and hug the ladies like they are my sister or mother.
Cassie
I've always kind of been an outsider, as far as being around guys is concerned. That feeling has become much more prevalent since I've come to terms (somewhat) with my crossdressing. I guess there is hope - after all, I used to be pretty damned rude and crude not all that long ago.
I've been ignoring all of the really sorry behavior that goes on around me even when it gets me marked as the odd one out. One guy i work with goes on all day with these lame and sometimes offensive jokes, one day he nodded towards me and asked if i didn't get the last one. I said i haven't been listening to you at all.
Another good comment to let your feelings be known without getting outed or picked on is when the rude behavior comes up and ppl are getting slighted or debased is to say "who am i judge", "none of my business", "each to their own" and so on.
I have had to go through a rebuilding phase in my recovery and i make sure folks around me know it, when the typical rude male behavior gets going around me i just turn my outside face off and move away.
One other thing i think we need to remember though is that women can be quite capable of rude and "catty" behavior as well. And since alot of us spend time in groups of women and are treated differently sometimes (one of the gang as it were) i'm sure some of you have seen it. Trash talking, gossiping, and worse at times.
That said, the type of close and loving friendship that women can share with each other is something i envy very much.
Cassie
In an earlier thread I started I was saying how awful it was being out with the a group of "lads" and their despicable attitudes to women. I've never been comfortable in that environment never being an alpha male, but when you acknowledge you're femme side as a CDer it adds another level of contempt. Saying that, I also have some great male friends.
I think that is the feeling I'm realizing right now as I strive to be the real me. That feeling of being an outsider amongst my peers... and the realization of just how much like them I was, and how much better than that I really am. Even to the point I find myself drifting away from "friends" I thought I'd have for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Cee
But there are the good ones, that's for sure. I had considered myself heterosexual for as long as I knew the difference, but after the words from one of the few I decided to tell of my coming to terms with myself, I really don't know anymore....
So yeah, I can safely say my view has changed, or is changing. For the better too.
kitty, along your line of reasoning but with a contrary conclusion I find myself. although i won't own having come to terms with myself I will align with coming to terms with myself. it is still a work in progress. you'd think by now i'd have it done but questioning myself, my actions and motives in everything i do seems to be a life sport of its own. so at least questioning myself constantly with this is consistent. consistent sounds so desirable and normal but i suppose one can be consistent and nuts. that's a different discussion though.
I think the process of coming to terms and understanding myself did not alter positively or negatively my impression, interpretation or associations with the male relationships in my life. what it did is allow me to better conceptualize, understand and accept the differences between them and me that have always existed. i clearly have a male side and persona. at the same time, like all the rest of us, i'm not exactly them. there are accepted, expected and even championed behaviors i have always found boorish. i don't engage in them. the lack of engagement isn't as a result of personal discovery and a newfound dislike for those that do. the dislike and the discomfort of playing along or excluding myself is long established but became easier as i better understood myself and the cause of the differences. i don't dislike them more for being who they are rather i become more comfortable and enlightened with who i am.
according to the animals, "it's a hard world to get a break in" but i'll gain more sympathy for the plight of men when I find more of them empathetic to the plight of others. there you go, trying to get others to react outside their dna. it's just hard to be anyone. women and others along the gender spectrum by nature are generally more sensitive to the pain of others. even your expression of revulsion concluded with a plea for someone to share some vision of empathy. one of the things you can do to begin to cope is acknowledge, accept and applaud that characteristic in yourself. the next thing is to never expect that from them. you can't keep yourself from being sensitive. Those you are evaluating can't help being insensitive. what's more they don't miss it, they aren't seeking it and rarely see the value in it.
the world acccoring to me.
All the guy bashing irritates me.
For the most part, I consider myself very much to be a man still, despite my crossdressing. It kind of hurts to think people might think stereotype me in this way, especially when I don't participate in the women bashing. Admitedly I have before, and maybe still do hold some kind of a grudge against women, but only because I have been hurt so badly in the past by them.
Oh definitely!
I have felt this, in some way or another, for years...
Now, it is more prevelant. As one feels and thinks as a woman, as female, from the feminine point of view, I
idenitfy with my wife's view of men. (She actually was lesbian-identified for many years... then changed, met me...
saw me as a more 'feminine man' who she could accept, was attracted to.)
So now I see the negative side of maledom: conniving, sneaking, wanting sex... treating woman in demeaning ways...
Melissa,Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa Stone
Yes... and as one who presents as male every day, I have also felt what you feel whenever in the presence of women:
who distrust me, treat me with suspicion, etc. etc.
Very hard to live this TG life!
Nothing has changed for me either. Except for the fact that when I do actually get to dress I feel more like myself.
Nothing has changed for me so far. I have seen the good and bad in both women and men. I wonder sometimes if those that enjoy bashing us males do so to help themselves feel better as a woman. I.e. I am a woman now (acting as a CD or really as a TS) so I should hate everything about men to be like the rest of the women. That to me makes no sense. So, do you hate the male CD's here who enjoy their male side too? With an attitude like that, it seems that they should also hate their family when they discover that they like being single. Well, in the real world the far majority of women like and respect men. As most men also like and respect women. People come in all shapes and forms. Love thy neighbor as thyself. I try to practice that.
I understand men better now that I am embrace this part of me and I think I can connect more with them on an emotional level
Yes it has altered my opinion,Men can be a right royal pain in the A**,but I try not to get into the pack mentality,and join in on certain behavior traits we have as men.not to say that I dont like being amongst the guys,or am unhappy being a man just I can see from a different perspective,especially when I hear my GG friends talking about the menfolk in less than glowing terms:heehee:
:hugs:Sophie
I'm still not at terms with myself, but I've been thinking alot about what role is it that men have in society, and quite Franky I find it depressing
Men in general have a stronger upper body so they are good labor, men are known for being analytical, but not being as in touch with their emotions as women, they are expected in times of danger to give up their lives or put themselves in danger for women and children, and they are a required component in the process of reproduction.
it come down to men have become Data (from Star trek TNG) that produces sperm. I left out how men are generally insecure about their masculinity and there for have keep showing others how 'manly' they are... I wish I could go to sleep and wake up as a woman. I want to wear beautiful clothes, women's clothes actually wow me and get me wishing I could wear this or that, men's clothing is unimpressive to me. I want to be beautiful, I want to be desirable, I feel good when I pay attention to my body, painting my nails, removing hair, applying make up, even using women's shampoo makes me feel good. deep down I'm a girly girl, but I have to be a man because that's what my family expect of me.
Hi,
Nothing has really changed for me since i was 10
i had accepted my self as to who i was / am , i have never had this gender detail or being one or the other i was in the middle .& still am
as to men at work , age 15 did not like or get on or being around them .
Totaly did not relate to or with them & hated thier TALK . so i would walk away. they tho they did not know they were saying things about me not as a person , as a big part of my make up was as a woman they had pics of girls / women on the walls , they were nice, young, yet were exposed to thier talk & ridicale & it was not nice even then , it was an anfront to me, it hurt me to the core. need i say more .
I do have some males as friends there is a very wide valley between them & me .
I do talk with men , how do i explain it , if its work or an outing our groups are going to or small talk .
Just no way can i on a ((( man to man detail ))) i just dont have that , theres a mind block theres nothing there. just blank . sorry .
I try to see it . so i ask the ? what makes a man / male what / who they are . that i can not answer.
The last line youv said,, is , i pity them , Because i know so many they have some redeming things about them , yet my term is a jackass ,
they are hard living hard drinking yea you know the whole works for me its a dilemma i still have to mIx with them. & heres the detail ,
They have accepted me as a woman knowing full well my background... so yes its very hard for me at times to understand men. its enough to drive me insane. oh well thats the way it is.
...noeleena...
Experiencing men as knuckle-dragging sexual predators has been an eye-opener and fairly revolting, but that's really more of a reflection of the whole online dynamic, which sucks, than commentary on a whole gender. I do think many men view us as men in skirts, and thus low-hanging fruit (translate: ****s), and I sometimes ask guys who make crude advances, is this how you treat GGs? Now I understand why GGs are looking for that exceptional guy who really does get it, and how hard it is to find him.
I've found that I have become much more tolerant and accepting of others no matter their disposition or tastes. I do find myself cringing at off-color, sexist, etc. remarks and jokes made by men now in when in male mode. I still love a good joke - just not at anyone's expense.
I would not say that my perception of men has completely done a 180, but it has been altered slightly. I have always found guys to be quite annoying, i have always had more women friends then guy friends. This goes back to even before i started making a habit out of CDing. I also think the definition of a man is based on those that define it. I am very analytical, can be a major jerk sometimes (but its usually all in good natured fun, never being a serious jerk). So in that regard i would be a typical man, but i would never demean a women especially behind their back, and i am not incredibly muscular or strong. I am more brain then brawn. Those are all based on society traits, but since things are every changing and always fluctuating i would bring it simply down to I have the male anatomy which makes me a man. Aside from that how i feel, act, and who i am was all crafted by environmental aspects of life and filtered by my brain into who i want to be. Its all about how you grow up and how society shapes you. Like someone was saying about how in the UK things are way different socially for men, because thats how they grew up there.
Actually I think I have a better view of men now then I ever did. I feel sorry for most of them. Many are behaving the way they have been programmed to act since they were wee lads. They cannot help themselves for it. Men are EXPECTED to be crude animals when it comes to women, at least behind the backs of women. A gentleman up front, a sex mongering beast behind closed doors.
My wife excuses much of my sons behavior as "he's just a boy, that's how they are" That's a load of crap. He is being programmed just as we all were, to be a stereotypical male. My daughter is expected to follow a more stringent path of programming with more restrictions on behavior. Sigh.
Ginger
I find I have the same view as before, basically that they are sports-crazed Neanderthals.
But, since coming to terms with myself, I feel more tolerant of the constant chest beating.
Not sure what you mean. I view men the same as I view women--as people. Everyone is a unique individual in my opinion.:)
I have to agree with Melissa. When I am in drab, I get along well with many men. Now most of my male friends are well-educated, good husbands to their wives, and good fathers to their children; so we have much in common. If I knew more hard-drinking, male chauvinist types, I might feel more like some of the other posters; but I simply don't run in those circles. However, when I am en femme, I am uncomfortable around men in general. Since I tend to CD in private or at private TG functions, this is rare; but I will related one story that happened the very first time I stepped out of the house en femme:Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa Stone
It was a Halloween about seven years ago, and my wife and I had decided to go to a friend's party as female pop singers. I had on a tight tank top, mini skirt, white fishnets and high heel boots. My wife had done my makeup and I had a long blond wig. The party was a twenty minute drive from our house; my wife offered to drive since I had never driven in heels before. I was nervous to be out, but also quite excited. About halfway to the party, we stopped at a light and a car of drunk guys pulls up next to us. They start making all sort of crude remarks and immediately I get very uncomfortable. I don't know if they saw that I was a guy in drag and wanted to tease me, or if it was so dark that they thought they were coming on to two sexily-dressed ladies. Anyway, that one moment has strengthened my feminism, because that is something that I'm sure many women have had to endure, and quite simply, it's disgusting behavior!
That said, that was one group of individuals, and I will not let that experience color all of my other positive interactions with other men.
Yes. This. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes
Bah, all these negative stereotypes of men being brought up make mtf crossdressers seem like a bunch of man-haters. On one hand it's not that surprising, after all we are mostly a group of people trying to not be or act like men. On the other hand, there's always an active thread complaing about how society buys into negative stereotypes about crossdressers. Hypocrisy much?
Sorry, but these threads really get under my skin.
I must apologize, I did not mean to make it sound like that was my view of all men,
I do know males who are awesome friends, one of them is even coming over to help with house chores while my ankle is hurt. ( actually, he is here now, but will keep coming over till I am better )
The ones I do have a problem with are the Neanderthals in the group.
For instance, my supervisor at work, he is constantly talking about how many females he is with.
He is one of the worst kinds, if your not trying to bang every skirt that walks by, then your a f@#.
Those types of men I cant stand.
Other types, are ok in my book.
( btw: I identify as male, even sometimes when dressed )
Ditto!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathi Lake