One and not the other?

Sophie and I were discussing this at lunch the other day, and I'm curious what people think.

While I was onboard a submarine, it was perfectly OK for a guy to have dirty pornographic magazines in his bed/room/closet/whatever. Now, I really don't care what people do in their spare time (I'm rather libertarian in that respect), and the fact that people look at porn doesn't bother me...so long as I don't have to look at that. In fact, people were shocked that I didn't look at porn at all.

Now, if I had told anyone that I occasionally like to shave my legs, throw on a skirt and heels, and do myself up like a cute girl, I'd be labeled as a pervert.

Really? It still boggles my mind. Any ideas on why this double standard is tolerated? Again, I don't care that other folks look at porn, but why would I get ridiculed for crossdressing?

And, for that matter, why do a lot of women excuse the love of pornography in a dating relationship, but not crossdressing?

Inquiring minds want to know your thoughts....

-Jen

Sure. The double-standard exists because the social rules are made by regular, normal, hetero guys without any gender issues. That is to say, the gender issues they do have and deal with are that they cannot tolerate guys who like being girls, even part time. They can see why a guy would want to look at nekkid girls. Bring 'em on! They can even see why a guy would want to see a nekkid girl getting boinked by some well endowed guy (all while saying to his friends, "Shee....he's almost as big as me! Almost!!"). But they can't for the life of them figure out why a regular guy would want to present himself as a girl....boobies, high heels, hair, pantyhose..... Can't fathom that one. Hence, the double-standard. They figure that any guy who dressed up like a girl must want to be boinked like a girl by some well endowed guy. And they certainly can't fathom that!

For most people, girls are girls, and guys are guys. They're supposed to take the ball they've been given and run with it, and not blur the lines between the two. Porn doesn't blur that line (depending on the porn, of course!) Crossdressing does.

Well put TGMarla. Unfortunately CD'ing is so misunderstood by all walks of life (heck, most of us CD'rs don't understand it ourselves!). Most people connect the dot of being a CD to the dot of being gay; which is statistically, so wrong!!! As such many a macho man (and many of us CD's carry ourselves as macho in our drab form to hide the truth) is very much anti-gay. The gay community choose a long time ago to fight the stigma and have made huge steps in being accepted in the mainstream. Us CD'rs have for whatever reason remained silent and there we sit. Acceptance will not "just happen".

Funny. That was a topic discussed on Cosmo Radio's Wake Up with Taylor this morning. And your right. There is a double standard. But you would have been surprised the number of women who watch porn... Lol.

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Originally Posted by OccasionalSkirt

... if I had told anyone that I occasionally like to shave my legs, throw on a skirt and heels, and do myself up like a cute girl, I'd be labeled as a pervert. -Jen

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I agree that it is not fair - but we do not choose how we are wired and this applies as much to thoses who instinctively dislike TGs as much as it does to us TGs. Add in unthinking peer presssure and other social undercurrents and it is easier to see why TGs find themselves on the margins of society.

One thing that is interesting is that transvestite or transsexual porn: the she-male *shudder* (usually touted as "a woman with a peni5", whereas I often think "male prostitute with t1ts" is a more appropriate description,) seems relatively acceptable. It's OK for men to want to look like women as long as it's for sexual gratification of other men

To each their own. Reminds me of a personal ad I had seen some time ago. It said something like this: Bit me, pinch me, kick me, tie me up, whip me, spank me, share me with a friend....BUT NO WEIRDOS! lol

All of us have a level of tolerance and acceptance of different things we don't understand. Add that to things we like and dislike. some of these things we don't even know why we like or dislike them. Kind of it is what it is.

Well, Hugh Hefner really made mainstream porn what it is today, what if he had also been Heather Hefner?

I'm not so sure it is a level of tolerance for most people. What I'm afraid of is that for most, it is a level of understanding. I think that many people do see what the porn industry has depicted all TG people as. Those very few are shown as, well, perverts. Sadly, most of us just want to fit in, but there has been no other basis for comparison, and association of the mind plays a big part for the basic human. The thing to do is to show everyone what the real side of us is. The side that eats dinner, shops, and goes to work like anyone else.

It's just that easy!

Maybe I just don't get it, OS!

But, what part of, "Don't ask, don't tell", involves watching porn?

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Maybe I just don't get it, OS!

But, what part of, "Don't ask, don't tell", involves watching porn?

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Nothing. DADT has nothing to do with porn. I just don't get how porn is OK, but CDing is not.

If you can figure that one out then we will both know. I've run into that issue a few times myself. As for DADT, as an officier, I'm glad it has been repealed because it was so bleeping ambigous that there was no legitimate rules or regulations to it. It was really nothing more than amend as you go to keep whatever politicians or groups barking the loudest happy. Good riddens to it!!

OS, TGMarla gave the best answer. Porn is one thing, but CD'ing is something entirely different! I think she explained it pretty well. This is not directed at you personally, but if anyone needs more information they need to learn a lot more about crossdressing!!

Interesting point that you make. It makes you think.

The one related thing that I find interesting is that cd appears to be more prevalent today then yesterday. I do not know if this is due to me just noticing more because cd is becoming more & more a part of my life every day. Or is it really becoming more prevalent on tv, magazines and discussion among non cders? Personally, I think it is misunderstood by most people. However I think it is slowly becoming more integrated with mainstream media. Which in time I think it will bring more awareness and hopefully more understanding to cd. The "understanding" part I realize is a pipe dream. But I think it will be a slow process.

PORN is associated with rape and child molesting and gives the viewer ideas he or she wouldn't normenley have! Where cross dressing is just being you! For me, its hard to compare the two because people with sick minds view porn, and people with great minds and don't harm other people are cross dressers! Just my opinion! But what do I know?!

OS,
The camera had hardly been invented when those early photographers (and pornographers) were taking pictures of naked people or all ages. It is human nature to want to look, even though society still (generally) wags a finger at it. It is also a hypocritical attitude as we constantly see with people in authority in the church, politics, police , etc. On shipboard, it is likely tolerated because men at sea (see?) need something to occupy themselves. during every war prostitutes are made available for the soldiers. rations used to include condoms. Erwin Blumenfeld, the great 20th c German photographer was assigned duty to manage a brothel for German soldiers during the 2nd WW. Pershing closed the brothels in New Orleans during the 1st WW--because of disease, not prudery.
Porn in "manly" stuff and as often been said, it could be that is also reflects man's domination of women (but since women are in on it now as well, that idea probably doesn't hold water anymore.
Dressing like a woman might fit perfectly well in the magazines where men can make fun of it, or deride it as"gay" activity.

I don't think it's so awful, and I don't see it as a double standard. You can't really have a double standard when you're comparing apples to dump trucks, anyway. Porn and crossdressing are apples and dump trucks.

We could safely say that 100% of heterosexual men like pictures of naked women, ranging anywhere from coy oil paintings to Hustler and beyond, depending on personal taste. That would explain the consensus that porn is A-OK.

Not nearly as many wear women's clothes. The figure varies depending on who you ask, but the average of those numbers is around 5%. That's a minority. Other deviations, like heavy bondage play, are also a minority, and get about the same range of reactions -- e.g. nonchalance, curiosity, confusion, revulsion.

The level of interest plays a role, too, as you might contrast the number of soccer fans in the world with the number of curling fans.

Jen,

I know several men whose wives are not particularly happy about them looking at porn. In some cases, it is the deal breaker in a relationship or marriage. Now in general, and for single men, I agree with you. The world at large would be less acceptiing of CD behavior over porn viewing. Just not viewed as behavior within the norm-i.e. what they are used to.

It would be a double standard if men were allowed to look at porn, but women weren't. Or if FtMs were not stigmatized the way that MtFs are (... and no, a GG who is just wearing jeans doesn't count for those of you who want to beat that dead horse, lol). But, comparing men who look at porn to men who present as women doesn't work.

The reason men who look at porn are not stigmatized to the same degree as men who present as women is simply a matter of hard wiring. Throughout the ages, and in all cultures, men have had a strong sex drive. But, they have not wanted to present as women. And societies understand this.

This article says it better than I can:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-23/o...?_s=PM:OPINION

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Perhaps the biggest difference between the male and female brain is that men have a sexual pursuit area that is 2.5 times larger than the one in the female brain. Not only that, but beginning in their teens, they produce 20 to 25-fold more testosterone than they did during pre-adolescence.

If testosterone were beer, a 9-year-old boy would be getting the equivalent of a cup a day. But a 15-year-old would be getting the equivalent of nearly two gallons a day. This fuels their sexual engines and makes it impossible for them to stop thinking about female body parts and sex.

And so begins the 'Man Trance'

All that testosterone drives the "Man Trance"-- that glazed-eye look a man gets when he sees breasts. As a woman who was among the ranks of the early feminists, I wish I could say that men can stop themselves from entering this trance. But the truth is, they can't. Their visual brain circuits are always on the lookout for fertile mates. Whether or not they intend to pursue a visual enticement, they have to check out the goods.

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The CDers who do come out to loved ones and friends realize it is possible to dispel the stigma with education. But it will take exposure and education before society as a whole will accept the CDing as a valid form of gender expression. Unfortunately, there aren't many birth males who are wired to CD (compared to those who aren't), but there are many more birth males who enjoy looking at porn than those who don't. I don't know if we'll ever reach a point where the CDing will be 'generally accepted' as much as porn, religious or moral objections aside.

Oh ... and there are also many birth males who present as women who also enjoy looking at porn. :)

A sailor that owns porno mags? Say it ain't so! I read all the time about how men think about sex hundreds of times a day and that's the norm. Now a sailor at sea? Wow. Looking at "boobies" is perverted (but acceptable) behavior for men since we evidently cannot help ourselves.

There is a huge difference between looking at boobies and pretending you have them. It is unlikely that society will ever accept that and most people will think it's too weird or as my wife puts it "just wrong". Sigh.

Ginger

It's easy. Some believe that porno enhances masculinity but CDing threatens it.:)

To put in my 2 cents. Didn't you ever realize that woman for the most part will accept a TS woman but not a CD.
Why is that you ask. Because the TS woman is becoming a full woman and straight woman would not be married to a TS woman.They can be friends but not lovers. There is a clear line in a str. womans mind, woman are for men. Woman (for the most part) do not want a CD for a husband because it is like having a woman in bed with them. What most CD's are asking is their straight wife to be a lesbian and have a woman as a lover. Not the male that they married. Even if that CD is not saying that out right, a wife feels that way. So I say, a TS woman is accepted because they are not married (for the most part) to the woman only a friend. Therefore if you want to be a TS normally it is clear cut the marriage is over. You either need to be with a lesbian or a male. But a CD does not want to end the marriage just because he wants to dress female as much as possible. That is very confusing for not only the wife and the CD but everyone else. Yes many CD's get it, some wives accept but that is not the norm. Simply put when you marry a str. wife you can't play lesbian with her.

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Originally Posted by Cynthia Anne

PORN is associated with rape and child molesting and gives the viewer ideas he or she wouldn't normenley have! Where cross dressing is just being you! For me, its hard to compare the two because people with sick minds view porn, and people with great minds and don't harm other people are cross dressers! Just my opinion! But what do I know?!

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Porn is associated with rape and child abuse????? So for those of us that look at porn all have sick minds??????????? Both comments are so wrong and stretching it.
I have watched porn BUT none of it included rape or child abuse. Both are criminal offences that to me deserve the death penalty!

With statements like this, no wonder people's minds are twisted to think crossdressers are all gay or sick.

Crossdressing and porn have nothing to do with each other no more then rape and child abuse have anything to do with porn.

HEY ... what's wrong with porn???? LOL

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Originally Posted by OccasionalSkirt

Now, if I had told anyone that I occasionally like to shave my legs, throw on a skirt and heels, and do myself up like a cute girl, I'd be labeled as a pervert.
Really? It still boggles my mind. Any ideas on why this double standard is tolerated? Again, I don't care that other folks look at porn, but why would I get ridiculed for crossdressing?
And, for that matter, why do a lot of women excuse the love of pornography in a dating relationship, but not crossdressing?

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[SIZE="2"]I don’t think you can forge a comparison between the two things (or activities, if you will). Since you have declared your non-involvement with pornography, I don’t know how to “take” your position. By definition, pornography is anything that causes sexual thought, and this can mean a lot of things, but I assume you mean “dirty” or perverted porn, by your personal definition. If you place all porn in this category, you are, in effect, practicing the same prejudicial reaction that may spring forth from your partner during a relationship…

You assume that the porn in a “stash” is perversion personified, and you may be right, but when another person assumes that crossdressing is a perversion, it merely highlights why we have these meandering discussions. You’re living in a polarized world where, at the moment, weakness or non-masculinity is a perversion, and any give-and-take on the issue is hidden for reasons of personal safety. In this atmosphere, traditional pornography (of the type you are referring to) is evidence of masculine behavior (or thought), while crossdressing is evidence to the contrary, and is therefore admonished out of hand. It takes courage to be less male, or even non-male, but I think the current state of affairs is causing a necessary backlash, for reasons of balance. I think it’s much more difficult for someone to understand the need or desire to crossdress, while the desire to dip oneself in pornography now and then is taken for granted – the latter, much like the former, doesn’t necessarily have a connection with perversion, but it is officially sanctioned to a degree. The only "officially sanctioned" MtF crossdressing is the version done purely for laughs…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

Porn is associated with rape and child abuse????? So for those of us that look at porn all have sick minds??????????? Both comments are so wrong and stretching it.
I have watched porn BUT none of it included rape or child abuse. Both are criminal offences that to me deserve the death penalty!

With statements like this, no wonder people's minds are twisted to think crossdressers are all gay or sick.

Crossdressing and porn have nothing to do with each other no more then rape and child abuse have anything to do with porn.

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Back in the day when I was young, I traveled around Europe a bit. The Northern countries there had porn mags available nearly everywhere! And, every town had their own Red Lite district that was either legal, or ignored by the authorities!:straightface:
If u tried to smuggle that same porn, which would be considered pretty vanilla these days, into the USA, you'd have been arrested! Which a leading business man in our town WAS!:doh:

The most INTERESTING fact was the very low instances of rape, child molestation and other sex crimes in those SAME countries compared to the US!:eek:

Flag on the play...:eek:

Illegal formation (logical fallacy!) committed by the offensive team, Number 69. Five yard penalty will be assessed against the offensive team, with a loss of down (for illegal comparison)from the line of scrimmage prior to the snap of the ball. The ball will be placed back to the 29 yard line, play to resume with third down. No adjustments to clock.

Play ball...

"O-S", Please come to the concession stand, "O-S" Please come to the concession stand, click click...Thank You...:heehee::D

Wait a sec’, this is the internet...where anything is possible. My bad...in that case...

Let me explain: Lets say you divide the (so called) square root of 5 x 100 with regard to the inherent calculations of the mathematical equivalent to cosmetic arguments. OK you have observed a total fallacy, right! Am I correct or not? Precisely my point! It is the same argument made on behalf of spaceships traveling to Mars for the benefit of regaltutraded cockamonious fratitude! I won’t burden any of you with the erroneous consumption that makes itself plain as day in any defumpratory explanation.:thumbsup:

That’s just my opinion. I might be wrong in assuming I might be correct on this stand.

Hope that clears things up...twitter me if you need further inflammation.:heehee:
:love:

Well, my experiance is 20 years Surface Navy, and retired 15 years ago. The only time that a person was not ridiculed was during the Shellback crossing and the WOG Queen contest. When I crossed, two of the contestants were later discovered as Gays. Both of them looked way too good to not have done it before.

The U.S. Military overall is NOT accepting of anything that is out of the "norm". The fact that the goverment passed a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy into law years ago, and now have repealed it, makes you wonder if there wil ever be a time that it is acceptable in the Military for an openly, Gay, or CD'er(off duty of course), and not be persecuted by the fellow members of your command.

I know that I felt very nervous when I was on the ship and had the urge to CD. Panties is about all you can get away as you can find ones that look like Male underwear.

Ok, the quesiton of Pornography...

The Military when I was getting out needless to say was beginning to station women on ships in a widespread shift of policy. With the enevitable sensitivity training that occurred when embarking them, adult content material was forbiddedon the ship I was on. It could have been a simple thing that the CO/XO were prudes, or they could have been concerned about possible issues with the female counterparts.

An understanding Girl friend and her acceptance of porn aand not mutually exclusive. Women get just as turned on by porn as we do. I know my ex-wife loved to go to the strip joints with me and loved lap dances as much as I did. This usually meant an exciting time when returning home.

I never had much hair on my legs and never once was questioned about no hair on them. I had kept my underarms shaved from early on and did not get questioned or hazed about it ever.

Bottom line; Porn is accepted. Cross Dressing is not and I suspect will be many years before it is.