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I do not pass as a female and will probably never do (although I am working to atain this image), I spotted a guy today who was dressed in female clothes very inappropriately for his age and could not walk at all in the high heels he was wearing. The make up was very amateurish and he was not at all feminine in his demeanure. He made me feel somewhat ashamed to be a crossdresser but then I realised that he was obviously not. What do others think on this matter?
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones !!
I have to say "to each thier own". I probably will never pass...but hope to blend in sufficiently to not draw unwanted attention to myself. But that's just me. Some folks are more inclined to be out there in their own individual style. Its not me, but that's ok. I don't think one needs to agree with the way others present themselves, but we can endorse each individual's right to do as they wish, (so long as no small children or pets are involved and no one receives permanent wounds!)
I say it's important for those of us who don't pass to go out in public if at all possible. We are the ones who let the general public know that we are among them. It takes guts, and I'm not there yet regarding full-time, but I admire those who have taken the step.
I used to go out a lot, but mainly to t-friendly spots. I did occasionally go out among the muggles, but I'm currently out of action. I've educated a few folks in my time, and I think I need to get back into action.
Christine, I'd say that the shame you felt was completely yours. Why do you think she (not he) should be ashamed?
Carol
Dont feal bad im a TS and im ashamed to be one around others in here cuz they are sooooo mean.
Breena.
You should do what you desire and are comfortable with. It is not your problem if others can't accept what they are seeing. They are free to look away at any time! :)
The most important part of the equation is that you are comfortable with yourself. I certainly don't pass all the time but that doesn't stop me from going out. And remember, practice, practice, practice!
The person you saw has more guts than myself.
I will never pass, even if all where blind. So if he dressed up and went out,
as long as she is not bothering anyone, let her have her moment in the sun.
Rader
I think there's quite a bit of middle ground between people who don't pass and a specific person who doesn't put any effort into what he's wearing. After all, there's plenty of guys who dress inappropriately while in pants and shirts. Just because a lot of of young guys wear their jeans hanging below their hips doesn't mean I don't like to wear some firmly at the waist.
I don't pass, and I stopped trying to years ago. Doesn't mean I don't make every effort to look my best though. I know I'm dressed unusually when I go out as a guy in a skirt, so I try to look good at least.
I am working of trying to look as feminine as possible within the constrainsts set by my personal family circumstances. I have very few opportunities to dress and cannot shave any part other than my face. I think that I almost passable when seen "face on". Seen in profile I don't look very female so I dont think I would ever be passable. I am also working on the way I move (specialy my facial expressions) and on my voice. When I look in the mirror I want to see and hear a woman. BUT, I have no specific desire to go out in public and to pass, altough I would love BE passble. However, I would like to be able to attent a CD/TV event one day and meet real people as Kattie.
First, very very few will ever "pass" on a daily basis. I dislike the word "Pass". No single woman fits an exact image and no CD will ever fit that without tons of surgery and make-up. If you are waiting until you can "pass" you will have to wait for a long time. You will be spotted somewhere along the line. I see this mentioned over and over again that "I will never pass." Then don't worry about it...you won't ever pass then. Most the pictures you see where someone looks close to being a GG have perspective errors.
Second, I believe that in this forum we should be a little more lenient with everyone. In today's media world what you see is not what you get usually. Those "perfect" people you see in ads and elsewhere are not perfect. Here especially I think too many put unneeded pressure on themselves and then on others to fit an image. An image perpetuated by marketing and commercial endeavors to sell more product. The female side has been working now to convince teen girls they don't have to be stick thin and look like "Barbie" which is an unnatural appearance. We are told what to look like and what to think. Who made these rules? Why is the person you saw "wrong" in appearance and why should that make you ashamed? You have to lose that "this is how it should be" attitude and start thinking "this is how it is." We are not little pink boxes on a hillside.
You are who you are. You are not a bad person in any manner because you have certain feelings about how you could dress or how you wish to be. The same is true for everyone out there. Everyone is so concerned about how they think a woman SHOULD look that they don't see that women look different from each other. There is no "walk" There is no "Hand movement" or inflection or wiggle or head tilt that is specific to the female gender. We are not clones, nor should we be.
You can work on fitting a mold you have in your mind about how you should look. You will be wasting a lot of time you could be using enjoying what you have. You will become disenchanted, you will be frustrated. You will sit in the house and wish that you had done more when you get old. Get over the "his is how I was told I should be or look." Take charge of what you are and hang on for the ride.
Just my 2 cents here, but if I hadn't finally stopped giving a d*mn about whether or not I 'passed', then I would have never mustered the courage to go out into Mainstream society.
It was always easy for me to go to the GLBT clubs and CD/TG meetings, because I knew I'd be accepted there, but that's not how I wanted to live the rest of my life, just limiting myself to those venues. I needed and wanted to present as a woman anywhere I felt like going, and with the encouragement and support of some good friends finally came to realize that I did not care anymore if I got 'read' or not.
Once I made that mental switch it changed my whole outlook, and my day to day existence. I still have a long way to go as far as feeling I can be full time, or anything approaching the impossible standard that many call 'passable', but at least I try, and at least I'm getting my butt out the door in a dress on a regular basis now. This CD you saw is apparently doing the same thing, no longer living life according to the unrealistic standards of others, but rather going out and enjoying the world while wearing the clothes that feel right inside.
Trying to hold every CD/TG/TS to a picture perfect ideal is not only unrealistic, but unfair as well. Just look around you, how many cis people do you see that look like crap on a daily basis... go ahead and look, the answer is a majority of them are sub standard compared against the artificial ideal many are trying to hold the rest of our community to.
OK, my rant is over now, but to summarize; this person you saw should be Celebrated, and consider that perhaps you might have had a different reaction if you yourself had been dressed at the time...
Mahoro, you're my new heroine! You go!!:yt::yrtw:
Carol :hugs:
I went out to the garage and dug up my old "Handbook For Proper Crossdressing" to see what it said about this. Low and behold, there it was in Chapter 2365 (on Tolerance), paragraph 2 :
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other’s folly – that is the first law of nature.
But in the footnotes I also saw...
“A critic is someone who never actually goes to the battle, yet who afterwards comes out shooting the wounded”
Ha! I saw a crossdresser riding a bike recently. I laughed my head off. The reason it was funny is because it would be funny to see a GG in full makeup, pointy high heels, nylons, and a skirt riding a bicycle on a busy road. That is just NOT normal behavior for a GG in my town, so it would be funny to see a GG doing that. Seeing a crossdresser do that makes it all the more humorous!
"If you dont pass as female should you go out in public?" ... IMO, absolutely you should ... and not just to "further the cause" and get people to realize that we exist but because you shouldn't feel like you can't just because you don't pass.
However, that said, if I was brutally honest, I do understand your sentiment when you say you felt ashamed. Presumably because you though this person was putting up a bad example to the public of what you want the general public to think a crossdresser is supposed to be like. I do get that concept as this person (who was presumably a rookie) is probably going to look and act a whole lot better with a little experience. You should see my early pics - horrendous! ... the difference is I didn't have the courage to go out. Now this person you saw, should she have gotten to a "minimum standard" before venturing out to save you from being feeling ashamed? .... ooh, now we're into a dangerous area ... by who's and what standards should she have reached before being "allowed" out? See, once you get into this area it's fraught with danger.
Dana, you didn't offer her a lift? I would have, if for no other reason to hear the story behind why she was riding a bicycle.
You could have had a new crossdressing pal too! :)
Yeah, that's a very sticky subject. I can see valid points on both sides of the discussion, but I've come to realize that we have no business telling anyone what they can or can't wear as long as all the naughty bits are sufficiently covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Morley
Carol
A page taken from my book. If anyone hasn't gottten herself to this place, let me say it's the place to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahoro
I expect to be read. I really don't care so much. Life is much easier when your head isn't on a swivel trying to see everyone you leave in your wake to determine if you're good enough.
I think you should do whatever you feel comfortable with. I think there are many that think dressing is pointless if you don't go anywhere or do anything, but I think its up to you.
I am a male and therefore cannot pass as a woman, unless I am wearing a properly fixed wig and properly applied makeup along with the proper clothing!! When my wife passed away, I decided to forget about "passing," and just go out dressed enfemme with no wig and no makeup. Been doing it for 6 years now and have never had a problem!! Of course, since I am obviously a male I always use the mens restroom if I need to even though I am dressed enfemme!! My clothing choice is for me to pick, not anyone else!!
I love it...I lost my copy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Miller
What is passing? If it isn't being ourselves then none of us will pass fully. Most of us still have the dangly bits and those that don't still has the memories. For those of us that are not GG we can never rid ourselves of our chromosomes...Don't hate on people because of the way the express themselves. It is neither polite nor is it something we want others to do to us.
Lorileah, Thanks for your post. That mad a lot of sense. Good point. Each gg moves differently.
The way I think of passing is that I pass at 100 yards. Any closer and I am discovered. Do you think I let that prevent me from going out. NO! In fact tonight I was suppose to an Avs game with 8000 people but I had so many issues that I couldn't go. Now on friday I am flying dressed to Chicago. Not because I pass but because I want to enjoy me. On Saturday I am going to see Merchant of Venice at the Bank of America theatre in Chicago by myself. Now I will be wearing a very pretty dress but I won't pass. On April 8th I will finally go to the Avs game dressed.
The point is this. You can find excuses why not to go out all day long. If you don't want to go out, then don't. But if you want to go out then stop with the excuses and just do it.
As for the person's appearance, I can tell you that everyone improves with practice. We can't be expected to go out and pull off the look everytime or even once. We may get close, but life is too short to judge yourself that way. Work on your appearance one day at a time and you will see a lot of differences over time. In fact one day you might even pass by your definition 10% of the time. It is a process. Never let fear keep you in the closet.
You have a life to live. So start living!
Well, I have in the past made commentary about my ability to pass at times, in reality I probably do not pass for a gg, ever.
I don't care if I'm "made" as a CD, I do care "Where" I'm made as a CD, for saftey only though.
Well, well, well! what do I say about that! Guess what! I don't pass so I would say come over to my house and we will practice our make-up and our walk together! SISTER! hugs!!!! If you don't like the way I'm liven', you just leave this long haired country girl alone!
That was probably ME, Christine! I don't enjoy dressing to blend. I'm TERRIBLE at makeup and was trying out some new 5 1/2" spike heels! Sorry to have embarrassed u! I'll go back in my closet now, where I belong!Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine1954
Thats funny doc! If you can't laugh at that, then you need to get out of here!Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
It's too bad you don't know her. Then you might be in a position to help with her presentation, after checking first to see if she would like the help of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine1954
Lets' face it, being a CDer doesn't guarantee automatic fashion expertise. There are lots of people both male and female who just don't have an eye for detail or a sense of decorum, and in most cases they probably don't care and it likely doesn't matter anyway. But, when a CDer looks like a badly made-up drag queen, the down side is that people won't treat her as well as they might otherwise. She might notice this and her feelings could get hurt.
The same thing applies to say, a young guy who goes job hunting in the corporate world wearing torn jeans and flip-flops. Or the GG who meets her bf's parents with her boobs hanging out of her top, G string showing, and chewing gum. I bet you anything both these people would appreciate pointers, since an improvement in their appearance might get them what they want, which is the job or the parents' approval.
The CDer you saw needs your compassion, not your disapproval. :sad:
As always Reine I love reading your posts as they are always very smart and insightful. I have just one thought though. It goes back to the threads about "outing" another CD by mearly making contact. Maybe that is the look that makes that person happy with herself, and by us saying something could ruin thier day.
For example try telling a young wanna-be rapper that his pants would be better served 8 sizes smaller, WITH SUSPENDERS, so the tops don't hang half way down thier crack.:eek:
I'm sure he wants to hear how the establishment would look better upon him.
:2c:
I really do understand what you were saying though. That's what makes it all so hard to decide. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
I have several friends who go out and are easily read. They don't care if they pass or not. They present themselves in a nice manner and tend to blend in well. You have to admire their courage and audacity.
I see plenty of people who belong to the some group or classification to which I belong. Some times one or more may appear or behave in a way I find embarrassing or distasteful. I don't run up and say, "hey, stop it, you are embarrassment to ______ and me". As has been already said, who am I to judge or be the arbitrator of good taste and decorum. I'm sure others would find problems with some aspects of my being to which I would disagree.
As a Genetic Female (albeit who does have F2M tendencies which led me to this board )
when I see a "transvestite" who is not even close to passing (eg. a 60+ man in my area
who has been seen every summer in a dress and such a bad "Mrs. Dog The Bounty Hunter" wig)
I wonder:
Is the dude insane? Am I in danger? ..because it is obvious he has a departure from
his senses (if any) or shame (if any) or cannot control his desires/himself and acts on impulse
and has NO REGARD for (the feelings of) anyone else - does not care about anyone else.
So - again - AM I IN DANGER?
Now - I took my male friend out en femme just within the past few days ( his first outing )
and we even went into women's dressing room areas (2nd trip) and washrooms ... BUT ...
I know the dude is sane ( haha - used loosely ) and means no harm to anyone or himself
BUT ...
We both worked very hard to get him passable so that he would not ALARM anyone else ( SEE ABOVE )
and when he went out we had a rescue system - what to do if it looked like he was "made" ( once was )
so that we could but the notion of a "false" alarm in a woman's head, so she'd not be GENUINELY SCARED.
See - if I went into a washroom or parkade by myself and did not KNOW there was a dude in there - no problem.
And if I knew there was a dude in there, if I knew he was in there with a female friend of his which gave me
reason to believe he was not just PSYCHOTIC and not in touch with reality and not intending to predate on me
...really no issue. By virtue of another woman giving him "safe zone cred" - he's not a THREAT.
And since MOST of you CDs are heterosexual - you can see my point.
In the paragraph above, notice that I did NOT say the dude was dressed as a female.
THAT would just make me MORE worried - increase the probability - that he is azed and intending me harm.
This is what it is like to live as a female. I have a REPULSIVELY overweight and UGLY co-worker who is afraid
to walk to her car by herself in broad daylight because she is afraid of being raped. They guys ( and me, kinda )
just laugh at the absurdity of it. I doubt Tyson could knock her down. But women ARE PREY - and we think like it.
Those of you who think it is ok to just walk through a mall unpassing and not caring - please - consider others, mmmkay?
Consider that you may make a female so scared that she shoots you ( I'm serious! )
We don't think like you do for the most part - EVERYTHING noticed as out of the ordinary is a threat to us until proved otherwise.
But ... you can pass if you sacrifice some glamour. Just look drab. Use a winder coat as a cover.
Not everyone will look like Kim Kardashian ( welcome to the reality of being girl - 'cept no gyno-issues for you)
You can have an outing with a "buddy" by hiring an escort or posting an ad seeking someone to "coach"
you for a "theatrical role audition" in which you need to play a woman. Or post an employment ad seeking
women to take CD men on outings - $25/hour - easiest money ever for them and well spent for you.
I think every male could pass as female with the right season, clothes, make-up, glasses, wig, hat/hood
and enough feedback here. I think you would be a lot safer if you went out with a buddy until confident.
NEVER go into a place where alcohol is served while dressed. If you get hit on, and THEN made
you may get the face beat off you buy a guy who is humiliated at what happened and then must
take it out on YOU for being a "fag" ( which is what he'd call a male acting like a female. )
This is why most nightclubs don't allow xdressing - for the protection of the xdresser.
Stephanie, I didn't word my post precisely enough. :p I know the OP was in no measure to go up to this person and offer help. I just wanted to offer a different perspective, rather than feeling ashamed of her.
If the person is comfortable with what is done and can handle the situation in a relaxed manner, why not. If they are confident then ok, its those people who are not comfortable with themselves and lack confidence that subject themselves to any problems that may arise. I think it should give one more confidence as it says basically, if he can do it why can't I!
For me, I am not confident nor am I comfortable with my appearance to even poke my head out the door dressed as a female.
As the thread shows if you dont "pass" you will get crap from many directions.
I have a theory is that if you didnt look like a hot mess your first nite out, you waited too long :-)
The good news for those of us that may never pass, is that there are events, meetings and nites out where there is a supportive community.
So even if you arent the delicate feminine flower you can and should still get out and have fun
Being out doesnt mean walking thru the mall unnoticed for everyone.
Dont get me wrong looks still matter at those events, but in my experience if you are giving it an honest effort you should be fine.
I have only been out a 6-7 times.
Most times I go to out of the way places, and cd neutral places.
I pass (sort of) from behind and when I am not in bright light ... or talking.
I always do my makeup well and usuallly have a few gg with me helping.
Doubtfull if I would ever pass... mind I've picked out others that have in a crowd so it may just be that I have a critical eye for detail, but that said I still go into town. Yes I get looks but not all of them are bad, I've even been whistled at by women and jeered at by men as I walk past so I know they made me. Just give em a smile to say you don't care and get on with what it is you were doing.
Be comfortable with your self and never mind what the world thinks.
You should go out if you don't pass. I don't and I still do' I don't get any strange looks or comments, so I guess a little bit of confidence goes a long way.
I guess much of it would depend on a person's motive for CDing to begin with.:)
I'm unable to post photos from my iPhone, or if I can I don't know how to but, anyway, if you wish you can check me out on fb.
I know I don't pass, very few of the girls I've met pass, although some have been simply stunning ! I venture out to main stream venues all the time with no problems. I go to organised meets, where we have arranged a night out and meal or even venues for the total novice. We all have to start somewhere and that's my aim, to help any person, M or F, to realise they are not alone, they can get help and what a wonderful time can be had !
Dress sense is something you gain with experience and help. I don't judge others but will offer advice if asked.
I know I don't pass a lot of the time. I still make an effort to get out and enjoy myself and with each outing I learn something. I find more courage ans its more and more fun. I try different outfits and looks and when I get a compliment I remember what I was wearing and how I looked, It gives me a feeling of wellbeing and acceptance, pratice makes perfect, so start praticing- you are not getting any younger.
Hi.
Ashlylynn,
I do, ... NOT ... (( pass )) as a normal woman im not normal any way. did not crossdress not even a transsexual transvestite no, not a natal female , no womb ,yet im accepted as a woman both legal & by all Govt depts .
I dress as a woman im 63 have no head of hair use hardly any make up just lippy & eye brow liner ,
im a member of a few women only groups , women only forums im involved with many groups a mix of both men & women .
Iv stood in front of very large groups of people & talked to them. & if you read some of my posts youll see what i have done. & my pic tells a story, iv been over seas & where ever i go im accepted first as a person . & 2nd as a woman.
For me if it was about passing then im a compleate failure i do not look like a woman ,
Yet, if you stood in front of this kid youd find a all out WOMAN whos a intersex androgynous woman , you see we come in all shapes & sizes & iv been told im nothing other than a woman , even tho im born both male , female / woman.
i cant help how i look , so does that say im a socal out cast because i dont look & pass as a woman should .
I have respect from women & men, im well known , so i have some thing going for me as youll find out as you get to know me.
Christine.
I know many if not most dressers wil surpass me any time in how they look even do far better than i in how they are accepted as a woman make up dress & all there is & most would make me look so out of the pic that id be so embarrised in thier compnay,
If you understand that youll know how i feel as a woman i know what its like i live this every day im faced with am i trying to be some one that im not thats hard to work through im still here after many years .
What im trying to say is we can go out in to the world & be accepted for who we are.
Accepting your self , you can be accepted by others iv used every thing inside of my self so just dress the best you can get some help & go & have fun & enjoy who you are , just get out there & have FUN.
...noeleena...
I think the number one mistake a lot of CDs make is dressing like a street hooker. If you're not 20 years old, 5'6" or less and 130 lb, you're not going to pull it off no matter how much you want to. A high percentage of GGs couldn't pull this off if they tried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine1954
If you're 45 years old and built like a man, the best you can hope for is to look like a rather large 45 year old woman. No mini skirts, no 5" heels, no "night club" makeup.
What you have to do is observe GGs your age and size, then dress and act like them. You may pass, you may not, but you'll have a much better chance.
For me, If I thought I would pass and had the opportunity, I would try it, but dressed and made up appropriately. I'm not one to put on a dress and walk down the street with a beard.
If you're comfortable with yourself and how you look, why shouldn't you go out? If I have to wait until I "pass" in everyone else's eye's, I'll be stuck indoor's for the rest of my life.
Nicole
I believe it's all a personal choice, but girls who make no effort must NOT FORGET that you make it very easy for trans prejudice to exist and often make transgender women not be taken seriously. Know you do reinforce stereotypes with it and your immediate pleasure can have consequences.
You are inclined to judge others when you feel like you are being or going to be judged yourself , loose the shackles of the feeling of being judged then you will stop judging others .
It is the one`s that don`t pass that will make it more acceptable in the future as they are seen for what they are .
Ok great thread. Stop in some average place, maybe working class, and look at women objectivly. You will see enevitably several who if you open you mind that they might not be women, could be CD doing a bad job of looking fem. lots of less that " barbie" perfect, heck some even less than "Rosanne" fem. and what do they get away with it? Because they just go and yes they may know they are not image perfect but they are out there doing what they have to or want to with what they have. I have a auto parts dealer who has a counter SA who if I had to guess was a T girl build,my goodness shoulders and tough but all made up. But I have meet her son and he calls her mom! We see in each other our selves who and what we do and don't want to be. Do I want to be the obviously out of place guy in a bra pointed at by children? No, but someday that might happen is there a chance she/he doesn't see or need outside approval, good for her. I would like to think I would have made some excuss to exhange pleasantries with this person, make someones day. In my humble opinion
Judge not, lest ye be judged......
If you don't pass as female should you go out in public?
No, you must stay home and crawl to the deepest darkest corner of your closet.
Even though one might not pass as a female is no reason not to go out and enjoy yourself. I have come across many GG's that don't pass as female. It never stops them from going out. As someone said, do be careful while out as not all are happy to see us.
Quick answer.....of course, yes... go out and be yourself!:D
It comes down to confidence, no?
If you are blessed with confidence and titanium-plated skin then you can go out looking however you choose and we should applaud those who do. It was only recently when I felt I could go out dressed up after deciding I really *really* needed to feel the breeze on my legs :)
It would be great if I do 'pass' (but I suspect I don't), but I'm relatively new to this going out thing and I need to learn - the best way is through experience.
I can understand the OP's feeling of embarrasment, but I wonder if they feel that same when they see a badly dressed GG?