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I'm usually very upbeat about being a TG girl, in fact I enjoy being one. I do however get tired of all the negativity towards it from the general public. What makes it even more maddening is when TG people on this very board jump on the band wagon to try and make us feel bad about who we are.
Maybe I just read too much.
Marleena, Yes.... and the beat goes on. It is the one thing, still not tolerated or accepted much. But, there was a time, when i was a bit of a red neck, and if i saw a cd, tg, i would reel, in shock, or surprise. It sure happened to me, my first few times out! Most folks are just taken off guard, shocked, to read one of us. Many sad truths in life, just one more. But, there are good signs sometimes, when people treat us like anyone else, or quite good.
I try to avoid negative articles about the LGBT community, because most are so wrong and have a false impression of the community. Maybe I should respond more to negative writings, but I feel that it would just fall on dead ears and dead brains. If my two homophobic neighbors are any example they seem to enjoy their no nothing attitude. But I have run into so many friendly people, in fact most people that I encounter while dressed enfemme are uber nice.
Other than the newspaper articles or online news of the experiences of others' bad experiences, please do share your personal experiences being out & about.
I've been out & about in public since January 2010, my first experience being in a hotel lobby near a US military base where many soldiers were present, and I was never treated rudely at all. In fact, quite pleasantly.
I was at a shopping mall decked out en femme last weekend, though my outfit was womens' jeans, ballet flats, halter top, cardigan, scarf , eyeshadow, mascara, blush, lip gloss, earrings, and I fit in with any other woman (yeah....no dress or skirt, I know). In fact, I was shopping with another member of this board, Abigail , and we went to a restaurant called Bahama Breeze, ate and drank some pretty stiff cocktails. The waiter treated us like queens.
Discrimination? What's that?
I missed the negative part I guess. Other than the usual cliques and personality differences I find that most people are really positive about my Tgism. Especially other TG's
I can stand the negativity from the general public. I get a lot of that for many different reasons that have nothing to do with being TG. What I hate is when I see the same sort of negativity expressed here. This is asupport forum, after all, not yet another place to get dragged down.
CK
Being newly accepting of myself I don't have much experience with being in the public eye yet. I will be able to respond to that better by the end of April. I'm not going to let the fear of what others think of me stop me from moving ahead. Nice to see that some of you don't notice or experience the negativity.:)
I have similar experiences as Nathalie and Lorileah have. I honestly do not experience any negativity when out. I have the total opposite experience with positive feedback always. But then I have a very positive outlook on most things and the negative stuff has to be proved to me, which in our LGBT case it hasn't been. I am also very extroverted and search out opportunities to meet and talk with complete strangers. If they had negative feelings they never have shown it to me. Maybe they do when I walk away. I don't know and don't care, which is a highly recommended attitude for those that want to go out. I do get tired of some of the negativity occasionally shown on this site. But then this is a forum made up of all types of people using the written word to communicate without any chance to talk face to face. So, something written in a certain way, when the moon is full and I have just had a bad hair day, may cause me to over react when it would normally never get to me.
PS: Marleena, I just read your post above. I think that you will see that the more you go out, the better it gets and the more your confidence will increase while your impression that the outside world is so negative will change to the positive. Things can happen out there, but it is definitely not as bad as you may now think that it is. Also, remember that one bad experience does not mean that your are correct in your thinking that the world is bad. It just means that it was your turn that day. Good luck and happy outings. They sure can be a lot of fun. Come out here and I will show you.
Like Allie and a few others have posted, I haven't had any negative experiences while out. And I'm out all the time... I live this because I'm transexual.
Maybe it has something to do with my confidence (or feigned confidence). I act like nothing is wrong, like I belong there, and if anyone has a word to say about it, they can tell it to my boot.
But as far as all the articles, news and stories of horrible things happening to gays, crossdressers and transexuals... I hate hearing them. I avoid them at all costs. Even being transexual, I won't go to the Transexual Day of Remembrance because it's just too #$%@ depressing. I don't want to hear about that stuff... I want to live my life with the thought I deserve it just as much as anyone else... and I can HAVE it.
I have to lend a 3rd voice to Natalie and Lorileah. I have never experienced anything negative, quite the contrary. Every time I have been out, I have been treated like a celebrity, and I have been out dozens of times, to all kind of places. I heard on this site about negative treatment, but only as hearsay, never anyone who has actually experienced it themselves.
Do you hear an echo...echo...echo. No problems here. I have seen a few point and heard a couple of giggles. No Biggie. I think that an outing can be better or worse depending on your outlook as Bree alludes to. If you are in good spirits, you aren't noticing the 15 year old girl 5 clothes racks away snickering. But if you go out nervous and expecting it, then every smile is someone outing you, every laugh is a joke about you. The world is a good place and people smile and laugh about a lot of things. Don't internalize it all.
I detest criticism of any group that's based on ridicule and stereotyping. Why do people have to yell out or draw attention to people who are different? Why not be understanding enough, and compassionate enough to just keep walking. Or to treat the person who is visibly "different" in the same way they would any other person?
This might seem somewhat unrelated at first..... but when I was very young, I was exposed on occasion to some seriously disfigured and tragically deformed, wheelchair-bound individuals when I would visit a hospital where an aunt was in long-term care. I would see these poor souls in the hospital corridors. Some of them would speak to me as I walked around the hospital, and despite being somewhat frightened by them, I spoke to them in the same way that I would speak to anyone else who wasn't that way. I visited the hospital every Sunday with my parents, and I easily learned that these were people who just wanted to be treated normally, and not different than others.
It's the same with any of us who are 'different' in some way. Whether CD, TS, gay or lesbian - why can't people just treat everyone the same, and not leap to point at others with glee, criticizing them with shouts of "Are you queer?" or "That's a man!" Sure, recognize that there IS a difference......but we're all human beings. Just because we don't fit in with preconceived ideas of 'normal' doesn't give the media and people in general the right to judge, and to point fingers and criticize.
Live and let live.
You're preaching to the choir Piora ;)
I also haven't ran into any significant issues while out an about. I hate the racist and bigoted articles and silly parodies of us in the media, but lately I have seen some really well done pieces concerning the TG community. I also have a different take on the bigotry. Much of it is based in religion and I belong to several Christian forums. I really enjoy engaging the intolerant on their own turf and what I have found is when I make faith based arguments for who we are others on the forums begin to defend my position. The world is full of lots of wonderful people. You just have to look past the few bad ones to find the good ones.
Good advice Suzanne. I would lose my cool with the religious right, and I am Catholic by upbringing. Good work.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of negativity in the general public.
Some members of the TG community can be their own worst enemy, either by embarrassing themselves publicy through their own actions or breeding fear to justify their own choices.
Yeah, I guess. Maybe I'm thinking of some of those guests reading the posts in this forum (they're not all CD guests), and I'm preaching to them. :battingeyelashes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
I feed on negativity, so, wait this was a pointless post.
I do hope however I would loudly make a scene if someone was being a bigoted prick.
95+% of the population doesn't even know what TG means. Prompt them in a leading fashion and you might get a negative opinion out of them, but unprompted they don't even think about us. Put them into an impromptu situation with us and they're usually react civilly even if they manage to figure out that we're TG.
I did want to take a minnute here and point out something kind of interesting.
If you look up Tri Ess which is probably the largest CD organization out there you will see that they do NOT accept anyone but hetrosexual CDs and thier SOs. That means if your CD and you say your going to take hormones or want to transition, or gay, its goodby no longer accepted. If your TS and not a SO your likewise not accepted.
Now something seems kind of funny about a group of people that bitch about acceptance and then discriminates. Or am I crazy.
What is even more interesting to watch is if you go to a event where the CDs are present with thier SOs and a TS approaches the group you will see fear, annoyance, and in most cases the CDs will do ANYTHING to get the TS girl away!!! Take the same CDs without the SOs present and its total acceptance and all too often far more than acceptance of the TS.
I am just pointing out observations I mean I have seen it a lot of times.
So a recap it is interesting to note that the CDs that lament about acceptance and discrimination, have this large organization out there and they do not accept anyone but hetro CDs.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm.
Support comes in many forms, often here its seen as a fluffy rainbow tell me I am doing great, pat me on the back and make me feel good even if I am doing a terrible jog sort of support. Support also comes in the form of hearing things you dont want to hear but its the truth and sometimes the truth hurts and effects change. In this case I might suggest the CDs clean thier own house before they complain about others houses. Hope you get the point.
Katie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piora
No you're not crazy, Tri-ees is bigoted and deplorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
A lot of local chapters claim they aren't like that when directly asked, but they are still under and supporting the homophobic anti-trans mission statement.
*vroom vroom*
Heeere we go
Edit:
I'm going to forever live in the closet out of spite, not for anyone in peticular but just in general.
LOL yes they arent discriminatory sometimes..........like when the wives arent present.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miranda-E
It is sad when TG help groups have certain criteria that has to be met. I've heard some complaints from members here that it definitely does occur. It can be the shunning of SO's too or certain TG statuses within the umbrella group.
Marleena, I hope you take this the right way, but maybe you just need to step back from the forum for a few days. I've felt that way many times in the past ... sort of a burnout I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
It's a large forum with a wide variety of people, some saner than others, some more tactful than others, some with stronger abilities to see beyond their own circumstances than others. I don't think most people here try to put others down, even though some of the posts read that way. :hugs:
EDIT
There you go! You need to put some eggs in different baskets. Try to focus on going out and you'll see that you won't be affected so much by some of the people here who look at things differently than you do. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
Maybe you're right. Thanks.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I will probably never go out dressed. I have to go through and put up with a massive amount of negativity from all kinds of other things, being a TG is not something I want to do in public. People still hate the hearing impaired and deaf, people don't like being around a guy who has very little control over the right side of his body, the LGB community, ironically, hates B's, and even family members and "friends" refuse to talk to me anymore since I've a "different personality" since the surgery. Besides, I've heard so many crazy stories that it doesn't seem worth it at this point to take any pride in being a TG, and go out in the world.
So... My answer is a combination. Yes, I hate the negativity for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread. And no, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, because I don't really deal with negativity towards the TG community.
Which is why I lurk this site so much. (As opposed to interacting.)Quote:
Originally Posted by CynthiaD
Tends to make a person a bit cynical, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
I haven't been on this site in several weeks, probably because of my attitude about negative reactions. I used to be fairly confident when I went out, and most of the time I am. But I had an incident with some women at a belly dance class a couple of years ago that sort of rocked me. I think that I mentioned this before, so I'll not go into it again very much. I had been taking some classes and then dropped out for several months. When I went back, some new people told the instructor that if I was there they would quit. I was asked to leave. I'm on the fence now to go back. I stopped by and talked to the instructor a couple of weeks ago and she was okay with me returning.
Kate, i've never attended a Tri-Ess meeting, never seemed like much fun, but I go to events setup on my TG meetup group every week, sometimes several a week. We have CD's, TG's, SO's and TS's and we all get along just fine. We all respect each other and celibrate a common bond. Maybe there are groups of CD's that shun TS's out there, but I can testify that it is by no means the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
Well I guess I am one of the luckier ladies here as I have never had any trouble when out (apart from the odd comment).
Yes there is a risk of something bad but there is a risk for anyone crossing a road. It's all about the size of the risk and are we just being extra careful.
Our problem as a community is that the media sieze on any story they can sensationalise that to increase sales. A man dressed as a girl robbing a bank suits them just fine.
We have a lot of ladies here who because they get on with their daily lives with no hassles become almost like the silent majority. Its hard to promote being normal if you dont stand out. All those of us who are out among the general public is change one mind at a time. I dont know about Tri ess as I live in the UK, but any group I have attended has been accepting of all. They dont discriminate against anyone.
Hi, Marleena! Yes, I do get a bit down sometimes because of stuff I see in the media. If, e.g., you come across an article on the net somewhere and then look at the comments below it, some of those comments can be unbelievable--incredibly ignorant and vicious. But I've wondered about those people who post such comments: they're very loud and brave while they're safely anonymous at home on their own computer. If they ran into a TG person in the flesh somewhere, would they be so brave and vocal? Maybe not. (After all, there are plenty of MTF CDers who are well able to handle themselves.)
More than the negativity you see from ignorant outsiders, what gets me down is the negativity we sometimes see within our own group. But this is no time to get off on that.
Best wishes, Annabelle
Honestly, except for the comments I read on this site, I never think about what the "public" opinion of TGs is.
I've been discriminated against at a position I held at a company due to someone in HR somehow obtaining certain medical information concerning me being intersexed.
After obtaining a good lawyer who penned a very nasty letter my employer settled out of court for a decent amount of money.
The person in HR who leaked the information was fired.
I've had two friends who have committed suicide due to accumulative negative experiences concerning family loss and the inability to locate a job after transition.
Discrimination comes from the general public yes but more often then not discrimination comes from those closest to us.
Julia
No matter where you go or what you do there will be someone who disagrees with who you are or what you do.
People who start with a negative attitude often get the same in return. In our sphere there are the naysayers, the ne'er do wells, the angry for what ever reason. Tri-Ess though maybe a good idea on the surface either started as or has morphed into a closed and "elitist" group who really attracts people who are already disillusioned. They have never really been an inclusive group and that was fine with me because it was as Mark Twain said a group I would not want to be a member of. Broad brush here but I don't think I have even seen a happy face at any Tri-Ess function. Maybe they have fun in private. But those who are happy with the "sorority" are welcome to that happiness. I usually feel coldness from the DQ's here but that is a two way street and I hope to work through that soon.
Being human, we have preconceived or false information on which we build an opinion. When I get the "lemon" face, I just assume they don't know any better. As I said though the most often I get that face is from a "sister" and every GG in the world knows how that goes.
I don't think you're crazy, but you are painting with a broad brush. Tri-Ess is just like any other franchise where quality controls aren't strict. The quality of the chapter depends on the people who are currently running the show. I've no doubt there are some chapters who are limited with their POVs, but there are also others who are more fluid. A friend was heavily involved in a chapter in the midwest. She by no means adheres to the strict party lines. At one point she even felt she needed to transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
Even then, Tri-Ess groups are only a small percentage of all the TG groups throughout this country and others. Here's a list of Tri-Ess chapters in the states. There are only 30 of them!!! :p
http://www.tri-ess.org/SSS_chapdir.html
You can imagine how many other TG support groups there are.
There is no Tri-Ess chapter where we live but my SO belongs to a huge group that meets monthly in a city two hours away. This group has been around for decades. My own SO has been a member for about 10 years. The current president is a woman who transitioned (with SRS & FFS) years (and I mean years) ago and her lovely GG wife. The vice-president had SRS a few years ago and shortly after her surgery she proudly showed me the pics on her cell phone. :) My SO and I have been to many meetings there and we always have a great time. It's hard to tell, but it looks to me as if the membership is split 50/50 TS and CD. I have never, ever seen anything like you describe above. No CDer in that group runs from any TS and vice-versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
I do wish you would stop looking at things just from just your own perspective.
you know, not that i've been out all that much en femme- but i have to agree (umm.. concur, that is, since i'm playing doctor today).Quote:
Originally Posted by JessHaust
My biggest issues are when i go shopping en drab (because i'm still too chicken to go out en femme) and it's always the other customers i get the weird-ed out vibes from. I can't say i'm unsympathetic to their reaction, but then, why the hell should they give a rat's a$$ (sorry rats, no offense intended) what i'm buying?
But we are a gender specific society, for worse (no 'for better' about it) and for as much as a meyhem maker as i am- this is one area i'm not yet attacking.
FYI- my wife and I talked about this some last night in fact- more to come.
-Kristi
Kate's brush is (as always) pretty broad, but also pretty honest...heh...i had a short run-in with tri-ess years ago, and it was horrible...
They definitely did not want me around when the wives were around...the funniest part was i started exploring the scene and i found out how much sex there really was, i bumped into two tri-ess "gals" trolling for admirers and i just thought wow..
Pot/kettle/black...that soured me alot...so i admit bias based on my experience
I think Marleena also sometimes disagreement and true exchange of differing ideas is very difficult without some negative vibes...forum communication is inherently prone to miscommunication, and anonymity breeds contempt.
Also because many of us have to work so hard in life to consider and protect our own identity, ideas and thoughts that go against our feelings can feel especially negative...
those types of threads are the ones that turn most negative...
its not negative to say ...that is "just crossdressing", but it sounds negative to a person that is here to fantasize about being a woman 24/7...maybe even what i just wrote could sound negative to somebody..
++++++++++++++
As far as out and about...i traveled the road from totally unpassable to today.... and i never once had a problem other than a smirk or snide comments..
i have had many humbling moments including having to get extra motel keys in a rainstorm at 2am with my male id (think wet wig, streaked makeup, beard stubble)
and tripping and falling at macy's and being surrounded by guys that quickly realized what i was and recoiled...
my worst was when two guys walked by me in a parking lot and burst out laughing, and one said "nice dress" as they guffawed...it made me feel bad, but i also learned it was no big deal to get laughed at, and it motivated me to lose weight, i looked pretty nasty stuffed into that size 12 when i was really 1X....
Ah yes the secret sex lives of men, great topic. What is interesting about those that have secret sex lives and crossdress is that they get to think they are being a woman when they have sex. I have met CDs that have sex with men or other CDs and when I ask them about the cheating they deny cheating because when they are a woman it is a different personality that is having the sex. Some even claim to be straight because when they are dressed as a woman they are a woman. Or something like that. LOL
I would have never been exposed to all this had I not taken the job working with trans people. It was an enlightening experience for sure. So much so that you could not ever pay me enough money to do that again. I did my bid for king and country and I came to realize you cant help people whos glass is already full. Funny thing is the ones that identify as TS make CDs look sane more often than not.
As a sidebar. Would you belive that I have had in the last week had a CD say that I HATE CDs. hmmmm ok. Many others suggest that my experiences and observations are miniscule. Hmmmm, ok easy to overlook the countless trans people I worked for. What other interesting things have happened. Ohhhh today I got a private messenge from a CD asking me to leave the forum. Oh and the best of all is all the people that say that I am being ALL encompasing about ALL CDs when I make my statments. My favorite part is that I keep getting messenges from Wives thanking me for telling the truth and keeping it real. They do really realize that I am not refering to ALL CDs just some. Am I making them scarred? Well from the messenges it appears they have been scarred all along. They seem confused, and not taking too well to the EDUCATION that the CDs seem to think will help them.
So because people either cant read or dont read what is in the text I will throw out my disclaimer again. I have NEVER said that my statments refer to ALL CDs. I have always used words like MANY, A LOT, A SURPRISING PERCENTAGE, ect, ect.
Katie
Sometimes it seems like some people were never brought up with the 'ol "if you can't say anything nice" advice. Plus negativity is contagious. But from what I've noticed from the outside world is that most people try to have a good heart. For every insult I've had directed my way, there's always five smiles not far behind. i have yet to have anyone bold enough to put me down to my face, rather just from a comfortable distance that these professionally trained ears can hear. The strange thing is that negative comments typically come from those who look like someone just took their birthday away from them. So I doubt that I have much to do with their own world of sorrow.
Well, this makes sense. Just google Crossdressing and we are served umpteen sex, porn, and meetup sites. I agree there are those for whom the CDing is largely sexual. I dare say their marriages don't last long, or they just don't (or can't) get into relationships with GGs to begin with. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Or, the CDing lives in the realm of "fantasy/secret sexual desires" only, in CDers who have the ability to turn it on and off. And their wives will never know. I doubt these married men ever make it out of their closets far enough to attend regular TG support groups or go out in the mainstream.
And yes, the tranny clubs are filled with other CDers (and TSs) looking to have sex with men.
Still, if an individual has it within him to be happily married to a wife that he cares about, his priorities will lie elsewhere than seeking "girly" thrills. Call me naive, but this is likely the breed of CDers who are attracted to this forum ... the people who don't want to hang out in all the meet-up and porn sites. This doesn't mean there aren't the sexually focused CDers elsewhere ... probably most of whom are single or divorced. Or gay/bi.
Yes, and you can be assured these guys don't stay married long (if they ever were in relationships with GGs to begin with). See my comments to Kaitlyn above. There are all kinds of CDers in the TG community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
Well I have to weigh in here because well I just have too. Kate is right, to a point, I have seen discrimination within the TG ranks. Unfortunately I have seen it flow both ways and most times it just really ticks me off! Tri-Ess was my first attempt at finding support within the community and because I was not 100% sure I was a crossdresser and not "something else" (their words not mine). I was told I could not attend. Running into a discriminatory wall with your own sisters is never a fun way to start a journey.
Yes TS girls are just as guilty of discrimination. I have seen it as well countless times. Of course this exact forum is about CD issues and hence I wont talk about the TS issues. Of course you could take a trip to the TS section where you will see I am far more critical of those people than CDs.
Katie
Yes, you ARE critical, and opinionated and rather abrupt. That said, I wouldn't ask you to leave. Your opinion is born of experience, and only fools fail to listen to the experience of others who have been and done things. The fact that you call BS on things is commendable in my view. If a CD person has a male lover on the side, fine as long as their wife knows and agrees. Any other variation is cheating, it doesn't matter what the CD is wearing or thinking. Sex with somebody other than your spouse/SO without their knowledge AND permission is cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
I don't always agree with you, and you sometimes rub me the wrong way, but you have every right to say what you say.
Anna
I hear you Reine...
I would suggest that the bottom line is that people cheat on their SO's with some regularity
..and CD clubbing is one thing that guys use to hide behaviour..and there is a high proportion cd/cd stuff going on...
but it not fair to jump on all cd's for it, and its debatable whether to trust your SO any more or less than if he went to bachelor parties, strip clubs, guy weekends, long business trips or any of the other excuses people use to get time for their bad behavior
The part that I would "call out" is how incredibly hypocritical the folks that do the cheating really are, and its difficult to talk about without making the larger group of honest and faithful folks feel smeared...
TG people looking for sex in clubs is getting us a bit off topic here. I will say though that I have no interest in looking for sex. I dress up because I need to and want to do things in public like anybody else. It is refreshing to see some of the girls enjoying themselves while out dressed. I also realize it is not a perfect world and some people just don't like anybody that is different from the majority. We are a minority.
Thanks for the replies so far.
This may be a bit OT, but why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
If a lot of us CDs are supposed to be deeply closeted TS, do we just become insane later down the line?
Well, with all due respect to Kate, she's not a gender specialist. She had no way of knowing whether or not the people she tried to help counsel really wanted to transition to begin with, or if they were in fact outside the gender binary and would have been better served to find a way to be at peace with all aspects of themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by whowhatwhen
(I'm saying this based on Kate's many previous posts, where she wrote about TGs who said they wanted to be women but were reluctant to go full speed ahead through all phases of transition.)
Negativity on the forum? I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure there is some, but there is no doubt that many (a LOT) of the CD's are just hyper sensitive to anything that isn't overly complimentary. I certainly support CD's in whatever they want to do but I'm also one of those "meanies" who sometimes points out the silliness of certain members. Some of the stuff I see on this forum makes me shake my head until I'm almost dizzy.
None of us have anybody to blame except ourselves if people have the wrong idea about us. I see so many posts about "If they only knew", well let them know! I walk around every day being a good example for TG folks and I guarantee if every CD came out and said, "hey you know what? I dig wearing women's clothes" the attitude of the general public would change almost overnight. I see a lot of complaining around here about "them" and I see very little desire to make a change. To BE the change. I also see lots of advice from closet queens and that is just something I can't abide.
Speaking of closet queens, when I first started cross dressing back in 2009 I fooled around with a couple of CD's before realized that it wasn't my thing but 90% of all of the men who come on to me turn out to be guess what? CD's! The closet cases are the worst, it's so common that every time I meet a closeted CD, I'm just waiting for him to try and F me. I love love LOVE CD's who are out and proud, my friends Allie and Melissa Rose come to mind but these girls are few and far between in the CD world.
I think support and acceptance is where you find it, and sometimes you have to open your eyes to see the real thing.
I am rarely out in public . That may change in the future.. I dont like the negative stereotyping when it comes to things in writing. I live in TN and not that long ago there was an article written about comments made by one of our state senators (I think he was a senator anyway). I was more than a little annoyed by the things he had said. Somehow I was not very surprised though.
I keep hearing about a CD echo chamber but I've yet to really see it, can you post some examples?
Don't get me wrong, sometimes we do need some constructive criticism and no one is suggesting this forum be 100% hugs and flowers either.
There are also horny *******s in and out of the closet, so that doesn't really matter IMO.
Except me, I'm as pure as the driven snow. *halo*