The reason I ask is because some CDers don't like being called transgendered. Then there are some that don't want to be represented by the LGBT.
What are your thoughts?
The reason I ask is because some CDers don't like being called transgendered. Then there are some that don't want to be represented by the LGBT.
What are your thoughts?
My TG group is under the GLBT in my area and it has been a good thing.
They helped push thru a fairness law in my city and that has been something that was needed.
GLBT has more clout politically than just a TG or CD group on its own.
I think that once you recognize that gender identity is a spectrum then many (most?) crossdressers belong under the transgendered umbrella.
I think that some crossdressers may resist this and the associated LGBT label though for homophobic or transphobic reasons.
Then some TS may say that they have some separate issues, which is true, and that they need their own representation. I don't think that we have enough political power as a whole to start fragmenting and in-fighting.
Marleena it seems those who have a problem with being included under the TG label are living in a fantasy within a fantasy. Like before the American revolution our leaders wrote that we can "all hang together or all hang separately." Clearly anyone in that conundrum needs to look within themselves more.
I tend to keep to myself with this and let others do what they want.The nature of the beast for this is problematic. No person or Org. really helped to get me where I am today, it was all due to my own efforts. Everyone has to make their own choice with regard to this issue.:)
Funny but I was giving some thought to this very question the other day. Personally, I don't have a problem being lumped in with LGBT. I have a lot of gay, lesbian, bi and whatever else friends. I am happy to be counted among them.
I am a heterosexual crossdresser. Sometimes, I like to think I am a lesbian in a man's body. Whatever.
I am against discrimination of any type and therefore supportive of LGBT.
Max pretty much summed up my assessment of this issue. I feel that it's a good thing to band all of us together, strength in numbers. Splitting up into separate tribes and dissociating from the larger group only aids those who are opposed to us having the same rights as everyone else. :2c:
Carol
I like Max's response. I am a crossdresser who is happy and proud to be under the transgender classification. However, since this whole area is always being questioned regarding who should be where, who is what and what does it all mean, plus adding in cultural and language differences as to what the terms mean in other countries, trying to settle on acceptable terminology is a lose - lose game and not really worth dragging up once a month on this site.
Good Friend Babs came up with a reason for The Reticence of SOME Crossdressers to ever associate themselves with anyone else in The Movement. Babs says: "Some Crossdressers like to have their cake and eat it too!" In other words, " I can be a Boy when I want, I can dress up and Act Girly when I want, AND I can hide in The Closet!"
I think if you accept The Idea that you are transgendered, or if you just accept that it's an Umbrella Term for everyone in The Spectrum; then you have to make some sort of commitment, have to start looking at Issues from a Transgendered Perspective.
Anyway, I truly believe that Most of us are transgendered. Who among us hasn't ever had some "fantasies," had some "what if" scenarios run through their heads, or tried to suppress your femme-self from expressing herself at inappropriate times. Now, if I understand it correctly, all of the aforementioned episodes could be construed as being transgendered, if we use The Classic Definition.
So, I don't have a problem with BEING Transgendered, nor with being labeled part of The Transgender Movement. I could be wrong, but I kind of think people who express their opposition too strenuously, are probably dealing with a bunch of Denial Hobgoblins roaming around inside their heads!
Peace and Love, Joanie
We are so alike..... same here.... really don't need any support or organization to help me or to further my causes.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Simmons
I ditto that. Never gave it a thought as to what label someone wants to put on me and I really don't care. My being a CD is not on the top of the list of causes I would go out of my way to fight for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
Don't misunderstand me, I respect those that are Transsexual and the battles they fight to at least be allowed to have equal housing and marriage rights. Same for gays. But no, I do not feel I am part of the LGBT community. Very little in common with most of that group. But I am glad they do what they do and support their right to carry on their battles.
I'm an LGBT supporter and have for years. In unity there is strength, I agree with Carol.
H Marleena, I think that they feel like that we are the Red headed step child,
It is a good thing from an "Awaerness" standpoint. As GBLT issues are brought to the forefront, and our rights are defined, the bigger the crowd, the greater the voive we have
There are relatively few of us in the LGBT community and fewer still who are 'out' to any degree. We should be grateful to the LGB's for including us. When a significant number of us actually leave the closet and proclaim (oe even admit to) our existance we could concievably do our own advocacy. Until then we must hang on to the coat tails of others.
Funny, I just blogged about this subject....
There has always been a bit of disagreement over how broad the "transgender umbrella" should be defined. The best historically referenced definition I've been able to find is "a socio-political term referring to anyone with a non-conforming gender". So, I suppose it's intended to be pretty broad.
I definitely identify as transgender and I worry that, by defining the term too broadly, it encourages society as a whole to lump us all in the same bucket. I worry that I get associated with those who present themselves as trashy or subservient or some other grotesque caricature of female.
If I had my choice, transgender would be strictly about gender identity and the cosplayers and fetishist would not be part of the umbrella. Even so, part of me realizes that many of the "cosplayers and fetishist" may actually have a non-conforming gender identity and just not be ready or able to embrace it.....so it comes out in unhealthy ways.
If that's the case, then they can and should benefit from the support of a TG community.
A word to those CD's who don't like to be callled TG's! If you wear the clothing of the opposite sex you are transgendered! Of course you can think what you want about yourself, but you are still transgendered! That is just another label that hardly anyone pays any attention to. We are all people, and we are all different, thank heaven! Don't worry about labels, just be glad you are alive!
I think it's good to have representation from a larger community, but I would think that those that don't know us or about us, automaticly assume we're all gay. Although some of us are, the cd/tg community as a whole is not. Again, fragmentations and assumptions.
But,then, are we actually being represented fairly, or was this just a convenient place to stick us, as an afterthought?
Personally I like the representation. In my area there is a HUGE debate going on as to whether or not businesses should be aloud to discriminate against people of alternative sexuality or "alternate gender identities" I think that if it was just transgender people we would be swept under the rug and no one would hardly notice. Not that there aren't a lot of CDers but in comparison to the numbers of all that identify in the "LGBT umbrella" we are few. Plus as others have said its just a title and I don't care about the title the support of others with similar minds is comforting.
I love this! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Simmons
I don't feel I have a need for special rights or a voice in politics just because I wear pretty shoes...
What are we talking about here: social classification? politics? marketing? Because I think whether being under the same umbrella is "good" or "bad" depends on the answer to that.
I see CDing as being affiliated with transgenderism, so view the following through that lens.
I have a gay brother who knows my story as I know his. We love, respect, and support each other, but I can't say that he understands CDing at all; I can't say I understand being attracted to a man. There is very little practical overlap between our two worlds other than that both of our people are marginalized and live with the threat of potential oppression by the majority that determines The Norm.
As far as putting our message out there about who we are, I think being grouped together works against both groups there too. The end result seems to be that people commonly think gays want to be girls and that CDers are inherently gay. Being grouped together makes our marketing effort more difficult because all it does is cloud the waters.
But if we're talking politics, how can we turn up our noses at groups that are willing to add their voices to ours? Politics is about forming alliances. The members of the GLBT communities face common threats, and are trying to gain acceptance. I'll gladly stand alongside them and accept their support. That's just smart politics.
In fact, as far as I'm concerned, let's see if we can expand GLBT to include all kinds of marginalized, misunderstood people: druids, Trekkies, Cubs fans, people who like peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches...
OK, some of those are more seriously marginalized by others, but I think you get my point. :heehee:
I think that gender identity/expression is a broad spectrum. I also think that there may be a surprising number of people, born male or female, who don't acknowledge, don't express, but who have opposite-gender personality aspects or traits nonetheless. Not everyone can be simplified in square peg, round peg terms.
In a previous comment, someone mentioned fetishists as not being part of that spectrum. I'm not sure. I think it's likely that in some cases, what begins as a "fetish" may have deeper roots.
Personally, I'm fine with being considered transgender to whatever extent that may be true of me. Once I might have rejected that idea - but after awhile, some things begin to fit. Besides, I like girly me.
If the crossdressing is purely for sexual reasons such as a fetish than the man is using the objects for sexual arousal and does not seek or experience transformation for other reasons and in my mind I would not think of this person as transgendered unless....
Also crossdressing could feasibly be done for aesthetic reasons much like an artist paints but this is done with clothing and the body is the canvas and I would not think of this person as transgendered unless......
Transgendered implies transformation from one place to another within the individual, it is leaving one emotional state (emotional energy) behind and going into another and than back again (possibly back again)
In my opinion for the transsexual there is not a transformation but a revelation that is transformative through being restorative so is not movement between the opposite emotional energies of the feminine and masculine that the crossdresser who is transgendered experiences (the woman within the man) but the discovery and pursuit of original but lost truth through external changes.
In my opinion to consider yourself transgendered you must experience or want to experience inner transformation by external transformation.
The seriousness of the transgendered label could cause insult or concern for those crossdressers who just do it for entertainment and not for the transformative aspects.
I am a heterosexual cross dresser, who is married. I agree with Tracii. Under my state law and enhanced local law cross dressers, gays and lesbians all enjoy the same rights. If cross dressers tried to get a separate law passed, they'd hit a brick wall. A lesbian or gay can pretty much 'hide' their identity. A MTF cross dresser, en femme, teaching kintergarten will not fly.
I am transgender.
I prefer to present as female no matter how guy I am.
being under the LGBT umbrella is great. also identifying as queer. when asked i say i'm part of the queer and LGBT community. i don't care if the general public puts me under the LGBT umbrella. if someone wants to know more then i tell them more specific. it's good to keep it simple for the rest of the world.
Hi.
My point of referance is im a female / woman, & long before i knew of any groups that even got to gether as said LGBT did not include those of us who happen to be intersexed. & really here in N Z not much has changed if you call lip service being of any use. & thats over 15 years. iv seen how we were not included .
Dont get me wrong i did try to be a part of just my distance precluded that as a long term being involved so really im on the out side ,
And to forums i like to be a part of that &if my background can be of help then yes im a part of what we have here, & on other forums.
To attend meeting or get togethers no its not happening. Though i do get over to Austraila every two or more years & meet up with others over there, other wise im on my own .
Apart from being a member of our womens groups, as you know about,
...noeleena...
This is the clearest and most concise description of the difference between being transgendered or not transgendered that I have seen. Many seem unwilling to recognize that crossdressing does not necessarily imply any inner transformation of the mind any more than it implies being gay. Many of us spend our lives seeking an answer to the "why" of this phenomenon of dressing as the opposite sex, and the formulation of the transgender concept provided a "reason" that could explain and be easily understood by others. In simple terms it says "we do it because that is what we are". This concept makes it a "condition" that some possess, but one that is not found in the majority of people. But while true for some crossdressers, this is a fallacy when applied to all.Quote:
Originally Posted by KellyJameson
I can understand the arguments about the desire to gain rights, the strength in numbers, the mutual support and so on, but these things all hinge upon our being something, which is a lot different than doing something. If we say we are transgendered when we are not, we are doing a disservice to ourselves and to the movement. We tell the world we have a condition, which implies certain characteristics and qualities that we do not possess, most notably being partially female emotionally or mentally.
Most of the rights being sought by the transgendered have little if any significance to the average crossdresser. We are urged to be true to ourself, and if that means CD and not TG, then that is our right. Why is it necessary to say we are something we are not in order to support the LGBT movement for others?
Veronica
Well, I like that it's under that umbrella but then, I think I fall under "possible TG who is starting at CD to see how she likes it". And I'm into men too, so strictly biologically speaking, that at least puts me under the "B" in LGBT. Just my personal opinion
I suspect very strongly that those of us who feel that they aren't included under the LGBT umbrella would change their tune if they were to experience violence, ridicule or loss of job or housing due to their dressing, or experience other significant discrimination due to them being a CD or whatever they consider themselves. :2c:
And I feel that CD's who dress strictly for sexual reasons are included in the LGBT group. While their dressing is driven by their sexuality, the same is true of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals, all included due to their sexuality.
Carol
People often times get lost in semantics and definitions, particularly people who don't have a good working knowledge of the meanings. Not surprisingly, they can come up with somewhat erroneous interpretations of the meaning behind the terms.
Furthermore, some CDs react to the term "Transgendered" as though its a Scarlet Letter. Its not....its just a term that in common and correct usage refers to a broad spectrum of individuals who in some way exhibit attributes other than their birth gender. If I see CDrs as part of that large group, its not any reflection upon an individual who doesn't like being grouped in that manner...and he/she is certainly welcome to insist that the term doesn't apply to them.
If I was asked this 5 years ago while in the prime of burying my cd'ing, I would say that CDs don't belong in the LGBT arena. However as the opportunities to explore my personality as Rebecca have grown, I believe that I do belong in the group because I am a happier, more confident person and feel "at home" as Rebecca. The more I dress, the more I understand that yes I am TG for that reason, and i believe many other CDs are too. But those that only dress for other peoples gratification, no I don't believe they are TG. as mentioned earlier, regardless I feel that those who do dress MtF or FtM should be included or try to be so that they have the support of other people who have been through the hurdles of politics, and emotional distress.
I think that my cross-dressing began as a fetish but has grown into a revelation of a fundamental truth of my humanity - to be an integrated whole personQuote:
Originally Posted by KellyJameson
Well, we are not trangendered. We are what the term describes, crossdressers. You can say one thing and I can say another. Who is right? If you gather twenty people who take your side and I gather five to take my side, does that make you right?Quote:
Originally Posted by sissystephanie
I am a heterosexual crossdresser. I am not transgendered. My gender falls exclusively on the male side of the fence.
If you look at the name of this forum, it's the other way around. Transgender people are posting on crossdressers.com It's not transgender.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
Quote:
Originally Posted by linda allen
The point is CDers are protected under the transgender umbrella. Some don't want to be called transgender and some don't want to be associated with the the LGBT movement. That was what I was looking to discuss.:)
ah..so many views,so many opinions..love it. shows the span of intelligence on this sight...always a cut above!!!..my own view...call me whatever...I do fall under the lbgt umbrella...fine. however my main label is that of a peace loving,fun loving and thoughtful crossdresser...tomorrow is another day...and i am happy if i get there...so call what you want!!!smiles and thank you Marleena
You're welcome!Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbie c
Here's my own take on it. You can call me anything you want if you're going to make it safer for me to present as a woman in public and fight for my rights. I will support any group that does that.
very well said and i am there with you...
This comes up over and over and I keep quoting the poem from WWII, by the Rev Martin Niemoller
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
So many don't think they need or want others to work for them (and sorry for the few here who think they built it themselves without help...you didn't).
CD's all seem to think they don't need representation and then they cry about which bathroom to use and how poor them get discriminated against. Why are we are "red headed step child" Because we keep kicking the people who wanted (yes past tense) to help us. The TG community was the nadir for the Gay rights movement because it was the drag queens who were targeted at Stonewall. So in essence we were the reason the gays coalesced and moved toward acceptance and rights. But then "we" didn't do anything to say we were in the fight. Most hide in their closets. It is possible for the majority under the TG umbrella to fade away and then they believe that they are not affected by what goes on int he world. The exception are the TS's who have to be out and live their lives so so many think they are the only ones who gain from the LGBT groups. And they do, but there are so many other things that are not as noticeable that are done. The current administration has worked for many rights and I would doubt the CD's here even know about them. So here's a link
http://transequality.org/federal_gov.html
Mitakuye Oyasin (Lakota) (all my relatives..we are all related), what concerns my brother concerns me. No man is an island... If you don't think it concerns you, wait and see how it will later
Lori, the modern world has destroyed the sense of connectedness ... collective responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
We are told we are all individuals with freedon of choice, subject to our own rules, without reference to anyone else; or any standards or norms.
And this is where it gets messy. We believe that many of the old norms and values were discriminatory, especially those which marginalised the LGBT community. So we fought to dismantle those discriminatory views and practises. Sadly, along the way, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. We went overboard and also pressed for the repeal of laws and the outlawing of many practices, which were essential to maintaining community and sense of being. Some call this political correctness.
I think we have almost reached the point where a new morality will emerge. Once all us are recognized for our humanity and those things which we have in common, rather than for those things which keep us in separate boxes, society will be able to review the situation and hopefully, restore those norms and values which enhance all our lives and promote unity.
I live in hope and work in my own small way to promote this ideal.
That is a rather interesting point. Many in trans leadership positions will fight and defend those who whose orientation is same sex, but at the same time look down upon those trans whose sexual orientation is themselves. (Not that I am directly comparing TSism to TVFism, but it is a good point.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Julogden
society has a hard time understanding just why a man would want to wear woman's cloths so they lump CD's with TG's or some other group
they just can not handle the fact that some men just want to wear female cloths and still be a man while doing manly things
Kate, you summed up my feelings regarding this subject exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate Simmons
Beth
I wanted to make a point but ,,,,I hate LABELS
Clay that is true and it is becoming more blatant. As I said there are a few who say "I did this without help" but in reality they didn't. There was gov't support and community support and laws and regulations that allowed them to do what they did (just think if there wasn't how easy it would be for someone to take what you built). It is less now but I still see where whole neighborhoods come together to help someone they may not even know.Quote:
Originally Posted by clayfish
In RE: Labels, they are what they are. They are a way to delineate things. Yes it would be great to be a great big homogenous bunch of people. But look around so many of the labels are used because the group of people want hem used (even here on this site...).
I guess the thing that bothers me most is the number of people who come here and complain "We can't do whatever...those other people can but WE can't" and then hide in the corner when it comes time to step out and try and change that. That is the "T" in the GLBT groups. They are trying to make it so you can wear your dress in public and still be a man (like you can't now???It is mostly the men who are against it). They are the ones who will try and make it so when your wife finds your stash and leaves with the kids and the bank accounts you can get some of the back. They are the ones who if you get beat up will defend you as a hate crime even though you are not gay. The site I linked to shows how the US Govt has worked recently to allow the "T" (and yes that includes the CD) to keep employment, get employment, get equal wages ( at least on a Govt level). One thing the director of that group said recently is that there are sex discrimination gender (sex) issue, those laws, and since being a "T" is gender (sex as to not in the sexual act but as in gender) issue the "T" community would be able to seek protection and recourse (again on the Federal level as this applies to that, not local or private...which shows we still have a long way to go).
But how can you blame anyone from giving up on the CD community when they rail against the fact that they are NOT GAY (or TS). No one does anything alone any more. You have (had) assistance somewhere along the line. Money, protection, guidance. All these things are Govt in some form. Even the homesteaders had help no matter how hard they worked, and a lot of that came from the community they were involved in.
I am going to put a slightly differnt spin on this thread ... right now I am going in to bat for the ordination of same-sex priests in our church.
The point I start with, is that ALL of us, whether or not we are aware of it ARE PART OF THE LGBT COMMUNITY.
We all have family members and friends who are members of the community, even if we are not.
As a CDer and a teacher, I prefer to live in the closet and this "coming out", as it were, will be interesting.
How will it affect the way my colleagues, friends and family view me?
But I digress ...
As you point out, Lori, we are all connected.
As I will be pointing out, none of us is perfect and we have no right to claim, self-righteously, that people in the LG community are not worthy of being considered for ordination.
How many of us in the congregation is secretly B or T? I know of at least one, and conservatively, I would guess that as many of 36% of us could be.
How many of us have broken at least one of the ten commandments? Each one of us. We may not judge anyone else.
Don't want to get too deep into religious argument, so I will leave it here.
I think I have made my point.
There is a lot here to be learned and not just how it relates to gender issues, but for humanity in general. History, after all, has proven to repeat itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah