Thou shalt not crossdress!

The prophet came down from the mountain, the pronouncements of his god engraved on two tablets of stone. Then to the trembling, seething masses waiting below he began to read:

“Holy, holy, holy is Society, blessed be its name, and Society in its wisdom has decreed that

[1] Thou shalt respect thy elders, and all those set above thee, such as politicians, pillars of the community and preachers of morals.
[2] Thou shalt love the state and those who founded it—and willingly die in its defence provided that thou art male.
[3]Thou shalt revere and conform to the morals traditionally observed in thy community. . .
[10]Thou shalt not crossdress for it is an abomination in the eyes of Society, blessed be its name.

Or at least, I get the impression that the foregoing is the scenario that some people imagine. Why do we have to do certain things and refrain from other things? Because “society” has decided that we must or must not—as if society were some brooding presence on a sacred mountain, always looming above us and directing our thinking and behaviour.

I myself say no to all of that. In my view, “society” is just people, the people of a community. There’s no such thing as “society” independent of the people who make it up. So if we say that according to society we must or must not do certain things, we’re simply saying that by and large the people of our community have agreed that some things are right and proper to do and other things, the contrary.

I think it would be helpful if we jettisoned this word “society” altogether. If, instead of saying, “Society condemns CDing,” we said “People condemn CDing,” I think we’re closer to the mark. It’s not some vague entity looming above us all that condemns CDing. It’s the people (or at least a large number of people) that we live among who condemn it.

When I see a statement like this:

So then why do some females feel threatened by us cross dressers? Because society has conditioned them to think that way. Simple as.

I think we’re getting things backwards. “Society” doesn’t condition people. People condition people. Society doesn’t make people what they are. It’s people who make society what it is.

Let’s bear in mind that women are after all half of “the people”. Once upon a time there was a rule for women that just about everybody, male and female, agreed on: “Thou shalt wear dresses and makeup at all times.”

But suppose women decide they don’t like that rule any more and want to change it? Are they totally helpless because some god-like society totally rules them? No. They’re part of society, they have input into what’s going on in society, and therefore perhaps they have the power to change society. We see the result of their decision all around us these days.

When we stop using this word “society” and start saying “people” instead, it changes our view of things. We’re not fighting some vague, god-like, all-powerful entity. We’re simply dealing with other people.

People, male and female, can be persuaded to change the way they think about things. It’s happened before in history. It can happen again. It can happen with regard to CDing. People, male and female, can change their thinking on this issue. Some of us who get out in the world have discovered that many people have in fact changed their way of thinking.

“We have met the enemy and they are us.”

Best wishes, Annabelle

Another long post on what's wrong with society and why gg's don't accept us. We are the weird and the few, do you get that? Most men don't accept us either and would down right bash our heads in, have you noticed?

"Society" can be found... by looking in the nearest mirror. CDers themselves are their own worst enemy.

I'd bet a months pay that 90% or better of CDers kicked themselves for waiting so long to escape the closet and discovering that mean ol' Society is simply NOT the big bad wolf that so many CDers make it out to be.

"Society" is simply a convenient and mostly unfounded excuse.

Maybe the creator of Pogo was a CDer...

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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According to her signature, Foxglove is living what she is posting about here: "I don't do drab." I don't necessarily agree that there isn't a 'society' that conditions us, but she is working towards this by her actions: "People, male and female, can be persuaded to change the way they think about things. "

Deedee

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Originally Posted by Jeanna

Another long post on what's wrong with society and why gg's don't accept us.

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Nope, that's not at all what this thread is about. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Jeanna

We are the weird and the few, do you get that?

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Yep, I get that. But that's not the last word on the subject. Do you get that?

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Originally Posted by Jeanna

Most men don't accept us either and would down right bash our heads in, have you noticed?

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As a matter of fact, I haven't noticed. No man has so far offered to bash my head in.

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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Firstly, I would have thought it would be clear to anyone who's been following my posts lately what I'm doing about it.

Secondly, I'm not surprised that some people have misunderstood my post. I was fully expecting it.

The point of this thread is that there's no such thing as "society" that dictates anything at all to us. That's why I personally not bothered about "society". If some people are, as I frequently notice they are, what I'm saying in my post is that they're worried about the wrong thing. They're setting their sights on the wrong target. We need to look at who we're really dealing with.

We're dealing with people. And as I've stated in my OP, people's minds can be changed.

Best wishes, Annabelle

Hi,

There is another side to this is this just about cross dressing or just wearing our clothes . female .

Id like to address the wearing of clothes that look like what a woman would could or may wear, are they in fact womens clothes, . lets go back to my time of 1400 to 1700 the men in our group some 100 wear skirts, dress's & clothes that were worn then socity = people did not not even the kings or Queens have an issue with that, so that being the case we have some 300 years of clothes worn with out an issue, from that point of view, ,

okay remember they were not trying to be , be like ,or emulate females or women, thier clothes were sown made by men & women & worn by men. today our men have in most case's thier garb made by women .

Now this group is world wide some many 1000's with in the S C A.

Now we have visiters come & have a look at what we do, & are very accepting of what we do & our dress garb code, such as it is, even children come,, & as you know i show off my clothes to many people outside of our times together, yes over sea's as dressed for all to see Airports staff & many others, plus our Vilage, iv not recived any adverse words of disaprovale, where ever i go.

Its no different from our Edwardian group 1900 to 1914, i go where ever dressed & im known,

okay my point is & i was told last week i was seen as a male dressed as a woman or percived as male as you know because of my facial features being more male than female, & was told i was very brave to take on a womans personer & dress as one , & then they said they did not see a male they saw i was a female / woman. so i still show mixed mesages i know i will allways till people get to know me then it changes how im seen, in the mean time im showing others its okay to wear our cothes = garb & still be accepted,

Okay its not about crossdressing as such yet im still in front of people dressing differently, any way i thought it was worth writeing about, for what its worth,

...noeleena...

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Originally Posted by Foxglove

As a matter of fact, I haven't noticed. No man has so far offered to bash my head in.

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No man has offered to bash your head in yet to your face but behind our backs "some men" can 1/2 jokingly talk about it all right but won't do it. I have heard a lot of these stupid conversations from bigots before.


You asked a question as to why some females feel threatened by CD's.

1. First of all I have found that women by far are more accepting to us than men....

2. The reason "some women" feel threatened is the same reason some males do...Gender identity is plowed into our heads from an early age. Just like you have said too!

And just like the comments our gay friends get such as God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. A lot of people see things this way and can't handle change or anything that deviates from what they have learned at a young age.

3. Can we change society's views? I think yes somewhat we can. The biggest hurddle we have to overcome is that people can feel that CD's are trying to con them. I'm going to do what I can in my lifetime to try and make change.....

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Originally Posted by Launa

No man has offered to bash your head in yet to your face but behind our backs "some men" can 1/2 jokingly talk about it all right but won't do it. I have heard a lot of these stupid conversations from bigots before.


You asked a question as to why some females feel threatened by CD's.

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As a matter of fact, I didn't ask this question. Please re-read the OP.

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Originally Posted by Launa

1. First of all I have found that women by far are more accepting to us than men....

2. The reason "some women" feel threatened is the same reason some males do...Gender identity is plowed into our heads from an early age. Just like you have said too!

And just like the comments our gay friends get such as God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. A lot of people see things this way and can't handle change or anything that deviates from what they have learned at a young age.

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Therefore all of this is off-topic. Please re-read the OP.

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Originally Posted by Launa

3. Can we change society's views? I think yes somewhat we can. The biggest hurddle we have to overcome is that people can feel that CD's are trying to con them. I'm going to do what I can in my lifetime to try and make change.....

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This is more to the point.

Annabelle

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...I'm not surprised that some people have misunderstood my post. I was fully expecting it.

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Maybe you should write a tad less idiosyncratically and try to appeal to a larger audience.

(I fully realize I am calling the pot black here, but I don't complain when I am not understood!)

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Originally Posted by mikiarata

Maybe you should write a tad less idiosyncratically and try to appeal to a larger audience.

(I fully realize I am calling the pot black here, but I don't complain when I am not understood!)

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Miki, I don't think what I've written here is particularly difficult. If you want something difficult, you can try Immanuel Kant.

What I've written would be perfectly clear to anyone who takes the time to read it. I've often noticed on forums that people don't really read a post before they respond to it. That's obviously been the case here.

As for writing "idiosyncatically", we all have our personalities. Everybody on this forum writes accordingly. No reason why I should be the exception.

And I do complain about being misunderstood when people don't take the trouble to read what I've written. Some people who've replied to this thread missed my intent by about a million miles. When people make absolutely no effort to understood what I've said, I think I'm within my rights to complain.

And if I wanted to appeal to a larger audience, I wouldn't write on this subject at all.

Best wishes, Annabelle

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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Originally Posted by foxglove

Firstly, I would have thought it would be clear to anyone who's been following my posts lately what I'm doing about it.

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Most people DO NOT read past history/posts when responding to a post, so no I do not know what you are doing about it.

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Originally Posted by foxglove

Secondly, I'm not surprised that some people have misunderstood my post. I was fully expecting it.

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That is the problem with reading about something, it takes a while before the essence of what you are saying really comes to the fore. In normal conversation the essence of what you are saying is communicated much more quickly.

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this
If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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C'Mon Nigella, do you have to ask all the hard and thoughtful questions?

Annabelle, I think you have taken too long in your post to make the point.
My attention span is about the length of a clothesline, not The Golden Gate Bridge.

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

C'Mon Nigella, do you have to ask all the hard and thoughtful questions?

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Yeah, except that the question had nothing to do with what I wrote. Nowhere did I say I was bothered by what society dictated to me. As a matter of fact, the drift of my post was that society doesn't dictate anything to anybody. So why would I be bothered by what society dictates, if I don't think society dictates anything?

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

Annabelle, I think you have taken too long in your post to make the point.
My attention span is about the length of a clothesline, not The Golden Gate Bridge.

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Well, I'm sorry, Beverley. My attention span goes from a super-string to a supernova. It's a fabulous world. I think it would be a poor little world indeed if I limited it to clotheslines.

As a member of "society", I agree with what you wrote. "We" oftentimes are our biggest critic and are so egocentic to believe that everyone is watching "us" like the minutemen who watch the US border with Mexico, at the ready to notify "society" that I am leaving the house and God-forbid, be seen by all willing to look up from their phones.

No male has taken the opportunity to "bash" my head in...maybe some names, but I've been called worse dressed as a male. Reading many post here, the biggest female "haters" of "society" are living in the home.

I subscribed to a google article alert for a period of time on the topic of crossdressing. What i found was shocking! The majority of articles were about crossdressing criminals. I had to stop getting those articles as it was nothing useful and very discouraging.

So it goes to my point and I've said this before that crossdressers have very poor role models. Unless its an entertainer that does it for comedic relief none of the portrayals in the media are positive and they are mostly incorrect .

and the image is not helped by those members of the CD community that go out in public and contribute to that image by looking absolutely ridiculous. Someone with a really poor costume wig all askew, dark sunglasses at night and super high heels they can't even walk in while trolling the mall. Everything about their appearance drew attention to themselves and they couldn't be oblivious to the finder pointing and laughing that I observed.

Basing one's life on a single text or dogma, one that is admittedly only valid if one accepts it without question, ignores the fact that we have ample evidence that if we use our own (god given) brains, the reality is other than that writing.

Why the hell would a creator give such an incredible and outstanding brain to (those who use it diligently) us, yet require us to we toss out 99% of what our god designed and given brains have learned, to follow rules which are blatantly and contradictory from a book that has no ability to verify?

This is so outside the box of reason, it is pathetic.

"Here, take this awesome brain that is the penultimate of my creations, but do not use it: Just listen to some other bloke that you have to accept without any form of logical or physical proof (that i gave you the ability to do so, obviously) at all, the proof that i gave you the ability to question for yourself?"

Sorry, that is a blasphemously idiotic idea: that a god who loves us all equally, would select only a few (with an above average record of misconduct) to determine who goes to god in the end.

Laughing my $%^^%%^ ^&*%^$ $$%*&* -ing a$$ off till it falls to the floor, runs outside and jumps into the sewer.

This is perhaps the largest influence of society in general, and rspecially to CDs.

Pardon me now, while I go and vomit.





86 the ego, you anti-CD/TG/TS hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Purple8229

Great post as always Annabelle.

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Thanks, Purple.

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Originally Posted by Purple8229

Have I told you lately that I love you?:hugs:


Did I mention that I love you Annabelle?

I'm proud of you and I DO love you sweet Annabelle!

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But I take it your woman doesn't censor your posts on this forum? How does the line go? "Purple, I think this could be the start of a great friendship."

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Originally Posted by Purple8229

You've come a long way baby, from being sequestered in that old house with that pesky old coot that might or not burn the house down around your ears due to his negligence and doddering old age; to getting out and about in a small town in Bonnie Ireland for god's sake, and strutting your stuff!

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By the way, back when I made these comments about my landlord, I was making them facetiously, but some people took them seriously, and so it sounded very bad. Just to set the record straight: the man has always been good to me, especially since I came out of the closet. He's seen me many times in all my glory, and it doesn't faze him in the least. So what can you give to a man like that but the highest praise?

Annabelle

Annabelle, first I always like your thot provoking posts. But, in your subsequent posts here, u seem more intent on having us understand the "secret code" in your OP rather than simply translating it for us! Which, I believe u could have done quickly and easily!

Regarding societies or peoples, we r quite lucky to be dressers in Western ones. Did u just read of the burning alive of the "known witch" in the South Pacific? While hundreds watched and took photos while a young woman burned to death?

Or, try being a dresser or a woman in a Middle Eastern/Muslim country. Where u could easily end up being stoned to death as punishment for your "sins" as interpreted by their "society/people.

So, what does this post have to do with your OP u may ask? Well Annebelle, keep reading and re-reading it. Eventually,you'll figure it out!

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Annabelle, first I always like your thot provoking posts. But, in your subsequent posts here, u seem more intent on having us understand the "secret code" in your OP rather than simply translating it for us! Which, I believe u could have done quickly and easily!

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Well, Sherry, I didn't think my OP would need any translating. It seems clear enough to me. But if it does, how about this:

Sometimes I find people talking about "society" in a rather curious way--as if society were some mystical, all-powerful force placed above us and controlling our lives. People who think like that tend to be pessimistic about the possibility of change. If we transpeople look at "society" like that, then we may think our cause is lost from the beginning.

I think this view of society is wrong. I'm saying that society is just people. There's no such thing as society independent of the people who make it up. This is why I find certain statements rather odd. In my OP I used this example:

So then why do some females feel threatened by us cross dressers? Because society has conditioned them to think that way. Simple as.

This example led some people to think I was talking about GG's who don't like CDing. Not at all. This was simply an example I was using because I came across it on the forum today. I could have chosen another example. What I wanted to do with this example was to point out the near tautology of the statement, "Society conditions women to think in a given way."

Replace "society" with "people", and then you've got "People condition women to think in a given way." And then that raises some questions. What people? And a lot of people happen to be women. Are we talking about them, too? You see, when you stop thinking about "society" and start thinking about "people" (which is all society is), it puts the question in a different light and gets you thinking in a different way.

Take another example: "Society conditions men to enjoy football. That's why men put so much blasted money and time into it." But I think this is backwards. I've asserted that society doesn't make people what they are. It's people who make society what it is. Society hasn't turned men into football-lovers. Instead, it's football-loving men who (in a lot of places) have created societies that devote a lot of their energies to football (and lots of other sports). When we think in terms of "society" instead of "people", sometimes we get things backwards.

I'm further saying that this is something we need to consider when we're thinking about trying to change society. We're not up against some mystical, all-powerful force. We're up against people who can change their minds. In my OP I gave the example of women changing what they wear. You can look at other changes such as women taking up careers and racial minorities achieving equal civil rights.

So: because of the way some people think about society, they tend to be pessimistic about the possibility of change. I myself, as a transperson and a student of history, tend to be optimistic. Lots of things have changed throughout history. People's attitudes towards transpeople can also change. Society doesn't make people what they are. People make themselves what they are and they make society what it is. So we take our case to people--common, ordinary people you meet every day--and bit by bit you bring them round. And eventually you have people thinking differently and you have a different sort of society. It's happened before, it can happen again.

OK?

Annabelle

I get your drift, Foxglove. The sad thing about most of hist, or herstory, is most of it has been written in blood, sweat and tears. Like the song, "Where have all the flowers gone?" "When will they ever learn..when will they ever learn?" I just was watching Youtube about the anniversary of the most horrific battle of history, Stalingrad. What a horrific, brutal wasted of human land animal lives, totally unecessary. Some people are willing to be more tolerant, and humble, and accepting of different others, while many others choose to hate.

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Originally Posted by Foxglove

So: because of the way some people think about society, they tend to be pessimistic about the possibility of change. I myself, as a transperson and a student of history, tend to be optimistic. Lots of things have changed throughout history. People's attitudes towards transpeople can also change. Society doesn't make people what they are. People make themselves what they are and they make society what it is. So we take our case to people--common, ordinary people you meet every day--and bit by bit you bring them round. And eventually you have people thinking differently and you have a different sort of society. It's happened before, it can happen again.

OK?

Annabelle

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I agree. Society will move forward but it will take a long time. I hope for one day when it will be acceptable to go to the mall in stilettos and panties. :D

Then on the premise that society is the people, we are the people, therefore we are society, why do we, as society not do enough to show society that we are not any different?

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Originally Posted by Nigella

Then on the premise that society is the people, we are the people, therefore we are society, why do we, as society not do enough to show society that we are not any different?

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Yes, we transpeople are a part of society, though, sadly, a very small part of it. I myself would say we're different--but not negatively so, and our difference doesn't warrant the discrimination we often face. But I believe the battle will be won in all the face-to-face encounters we have with people. Bit by bit we'll change the way they look at us and that will change society.

Annabelle

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Originally Posted by Jeanna

Another long post on what's wrong with society and why gg's don't accept us. We are the weird and the few, do you get that? Most men don't accept us either and would down right bash our heads in, have you noticed?

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One of the guys I'm out to said if he was out with Rihannon and some guy was giving me hassle he'd go up and punch them for me

APOLOGIES, people. I shouldn't have posted this this morning. I wasn't thinking. I'm going to be away for the next couple of days, and may not be able to check on this forum before Wednesday. Sorry. I'll be back as soon as I can.

Best wishes, Annabelle

:heehee:"[10]Thou shalt not crossdress for it is an abomination in the eyes of Society, blessed be its name."

Unless thou be-est an Pope, an Priest or ye Anglican Bishop ..:heehee:

Thanks for the translation. It was easier to" get". I agree with your viewpoint. I hear all the doomsday "expectations" but then never really see the doomsday results. Do people get attacked for being different? They sure the hell do and all too often. However, in my opinion, as much as they happen, I see no reason to use that as an excuse to not be who one wants to be. A lot of happy people get killed in car accidents and you do not see everyone proclaiming that they will not go in an automobile because they "might" get killed. Now if they said job, wife family, etc. I get that too and am more than happy to let them live their lives as best that they can under the circumstances they were dealt and even those that they may have control over. If they ask how to go out into the fearful world, I am more than willing and happy to try to support their desires and request.

I think that face to face interactions is a great way to help others diffuse their fears of the unknown and maybe even ask some curious questions that may help get them on out side, not the love us side, but I respect that person for being different. But that is not the only way. Being part of the larger LGBTQ umbrella also works in our favor, as does those that want only their "T" umbrella to work for more rights, toleration and maybe even acceptance. I also believe contrary to a lot of people out here that roles, good, bad and humorous, in movies, television sitcoms, specials on transgenders are all good for the overall goal that we someday hope to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The only question I have is this

If you are so bothered about what "society" dictates you can and cannot do, what are YOU doing about it?

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Nigella, I think she answers your question here-

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Originally Posted by Foxglove

[B][I]
When we stop using this word “society” and start saying “people” instead, it changes our view of things. We’re not fighting some vague, god-like, all-powerful entity. We’re simply dealing with other people.

“We have met the enemy and they are us.”

Best wishes, Annabelle

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I think Annabelle's point was to be a wake up call for the TG community- And, as opposed to being "Another long post on what's wrong with society and why gg's don't accept us", she isn't concerning herself with that question. She's simply saying that if you get out and talk to people it probably isn't as bad a we tell ourselves it is on this forum and it can only get better... Then again, you might live in Texas.

People tend to treat social aggregates as individual entities -- the "government", the "church", "x country" and "y country", "big business", etc.

It's a way to simplify the world around them and avoid thinking critically.


I encounter it a lot, particularly insofar as the government and big business are concerned, and, as a dual economics and political science major . . . it's pretty frustrating.

SarahMarie42

It's kind of ironic because we crossdressers always say on this site "just talk to us and you'll see that we are all different and everyone here has their own motivations for crossdressing and blah blah blah...", but we still scornfully project onto others our own sense of inadequacy and lazily assume that "they judge us because society judges us". We need to get over ourselves! People are people and everything comes down to communication. We will inform the people we meet and in turn they will inform us and then maybe we can get past conversations about social aggregates and start understanding and identifying communities in a more deliberately thoughtful way.

May(be), I have to ask you, did you add the parenthetical portion of your name as an Arrested Development reference? xD

..................... maybe.