Brutal honesty vs excessive niceness

There seems to be something of a tempest around one of our esteemed members being brutally honest in her posts, to the point of being mean in the view of some others. Perhaps I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I have seen hardly any posts that qualify as truly mean. Do some of us become too sensitive when the compliments are not as glowing as expected?

I coached my daughter's team in softball for several years. I would sometimes hear parents in the stands calling out something like "Good throw, Suzie" when it clearly wasn't. I would question them on this.

"I was just being positive".
Well there are many ways to be positive without lying to your child. Such as, "Great effort." "You had the right idea." "Your throws are improving" "Better luck next time", etc.

There is plenty of room to be honest and still complimentary with a sister who doesn't measure up to your standard of beauty. And I think many here need just that from this forum as a refuge from a world that is a long way from granting us full acceptance. People who are still unsure about who they are and in need of a voice telling them "You're OK". Just a small compliment (truthful, of course) accompanied by a well intentioned tip on improving their makeup techniques, for example. Just saying

I don't think blunt or honest appraisals are necessarily mean spirited. But they can sting a bit. It's not always possible or helpful to sugar coat advice, when it's asked for.

I personally stay away from fashion or make up advice and would withhold a so meant if I thought nothing good could come from telling someone how I,really think they look. But on relationships, communications, coping,with behavioral health issues, I feel I have something of value to and will be direct if it's merited...but usually in private.

I think some subjects require responses to be more honest than others, as when someone is posting to get opinions as to whether they can pass. I feel that honesty is the best policy in that situation, but some get very bent out of shape when told that they're not going to pass, even when it's explained to them that very, very few of us are truly passable in a close encounter with others.

But overall, I feel that it's best to not sugar-coat things. That doesn't mean be rude, although sometimes people take honesty as being rude. That's a problem with the written word, it can be taken the wrong way too easily if someone misreads what is written.

Carol

Like Carol,I watch people start a thread with the hope of an answer that will "help" them.Often when answers are not what they expected,then they react to those that don't suit them. Why ask in the first place?

I see this site heading in the wrong direction.Sorry
Used to be supportive and reassuring to those that aren't sure about themselves looking for acceptance.
We saw some beautiful ladies grow on this site from very awkward first pictures in the beginning.
I fear new people will just give up and go back in the closet and suffer after being slammed on their first pic attempts.
Seems there are a few here that bash others every chance they get and then run off and act like they didn't do anything.
And some that claimed to never go out in public but some how just started going out and now feel they know everything.

I think tracii makes a pretty important point. And speaking for myself, I can say that though I'll never be among the really lovely ladies here, the insights and encouragement have helped a lot. And in so much as we are talking about make up and style, a gentle and good hearted piece of advice is easier to accept.

Brutal or blunt, it seems can potentially also be a rationalization for being rude or judgmental.

I give a lot of negative comments but tempered with positive suggestions.
Especially when someone says be honest or describes themselves as not very attractive.
Thet seem to know the score and I will be honest with them and tryto be tactful as well.
It is all in the choice of words.

Beverley you always have and I think that is the correct approach.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

I see this site heading in the wrong direction.Sorry
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I don't think so. Jennifer stirred the pot,:stirthepot: in a diplomatic way. I see some meaningful discussion in a polite and positive form without sugar coating, both in her two threads and in this one.

Carry on,

Ineke

I don't like excessive niceness. The forum is an extension of the real world. We had an issue on here about a month ago where a new member posted a bunch of threads in the loved ones section about kicking in the door on her husbands closet. Some met her with excessive niceness. Some brutal honesty. But some with just genuine honest opinions. There was a lot of constructive criticism about how the issue at hand was not just CDing but trust, and anger. She got really upset and started attacking everyone both on here, via pm, and on another forum because she couldn't take the genuine honesty. This in my opinion was not even "brutal" honesty.

There is a level of "tell me what I want to here" here sometimes. While most of us understand that just sugar coating reality for one another isn't helpful, that's what some people have come to expect as new members to this forum. They see one another commenting sweet things like "you look gorgeous babe" and stuff when instead we should be telling them the truth. Few of the girls look like natural GG's but I see the comment "you look like a GG!" So often. Do they? No. Excessive niceness? Probably. Helpful if the eventual goal is to pass? No way.

I think that as posters we need to get better at leading by example in order to not scare newbies off. When you want to only hear rainbows and butterflies, that's FINE. But maybe in your post say so. When you want down right criticism ASK. I saw Danagirl do this in one of her threads in the picture forum. She clearly wanted unfiltered advice. This was great. She got what she wanted, no one tooted her horn and sugar coated life for her. I think it was successful.

When we make it clear on each other what we are expecting out of the answers, then it makes it easier for us to answer accordingly.

However, we have to remember that real life is cruel. I would never let my best friend go out looking like a hooker. She would rather I TELL her than to let her go out like that and let a complete STRANGER tell her. Lots of you ladies have become my friends and I would like to do the same for you without being "mean." I am sure this is the same intention of a lot of posters.

One thing I am hesitant to remind people of is this: Text does not have a voice. We imply a voice and a temperament to each others posts when we read them. Its our PERCEPTION of words. Sometimes that can be misconstrued based on how you read into things. Having a good day? Then you think "oh that was a little snarky" Bad day? Turns into "That was so mean and rude I can't believe that!! Lets respond in a way that's just as rude and inflammatory."

How about instead of excessively nice or brutally honest can we all just be REAL?

I don't believe there is any such thing as excessive niceness, particularly in a public forum message. I think less positive but constructive criticism is best left to PM's.

Never use 'honesty' as an excuse to be a bitch.

I crossdressed pretty seriously for about a year, maybe longer before I purged and then began transition. I was already openly gay to most people yet I was still closeted about the dressing for many months. When I look back at those days I'm struck by a couple of interesting thoughts. The time when I was closeted was when I was also at the height of my perceived pass-ability. (delusion) My makeup skills were awful and pictures (that will never be seen) bear that out. My body was masculine and large (200+ lbs) my wig was obvious, and my walk was obviously manufactured. (videos that will never be seen) In short, I couldn't pass in a dark room full of drunks. It was my totally accepting yet brutally honest roommate that saved me from myself.

She was my friend, my close friend who I love like a sister, but she was raised in communist Bulgaria and she is possessed of a decidedly non politically correct sensibility. Her critiques of my 'look' were scathing to put it mildly. She was never shy about saying something looked awful, or horrible, or ridiculous, or "like prostitute". Some of the critical comments here are so far from mean or even actually critical, that I just laugh at how sensitive most here tend to be. I've tried to give some constructive criticism but that tends to just freeze a thread dead immediately.

The bottom line is, it is nearly impossible for a part time CD to look passable or even good in real life, so if a picture looks bad, then just imagine how bad they must look in real life. Looking bad is not a crime, but people need to be told when they need to make some changes if they are under the impression that they are looking good. My brutally honest roomie put me on the right track and I will be forever grateful to her. Being the object of her scorn was not fun, but I kept working until I began to get those rare compliments. Today when somebody reads me, I pay close attention to what I look like and what I'm doing, and I just work harder to improve.

I realize that situation and my effort may be beyond what most would want to endure, but the truth remains, and that truth is; Pleasantries are not productive.

I'm new, and I generally don't go through archives when I show up (but I will search them when I want information). I prefer brutal honesty to lying to make me feel good. Period. Anything you have that falls in that range I'm fine with, but if I were to find myself surrounded by people who prefer to sugarcoat things to a point where I don't feel like I'm understanding them, I'm out. At that point, I picked the wrong friends. ;)

But it's the same with brutal honesty.

What I get angry about is so-called brutal honesty that isn't backed up in any way.

Brutal: "Your eyes look like Alice Cooper fell into a bowl of eyeliner and nobody answered his screams because they thought he was singing."
Me: "Really? They look that bad?"
Brutal: "Oh yeah, I don't think they sell enough remover at the store for that."
Me: "Hmmm, what could I do to fix it?"
Brutal: "Nothing at all, that's just gross."
Me: "Soooo...."
Brutal: "Maybe you should just let your wife do your makeup."

If you're going to criticize, offer solutions, or keep your yap shut. :)

As a fellow softball coach of really young girls I can honestly say I haven't seen brutal honesty work that well. You praise the one positive for every three negatives, let them know you care, encourage the heck out of them, then one day it clicks and they start performing like you never thought was possible. When they have success, then you introduce the sandwich method- praise on both sides of any criticism. And I know my views are supported by college coaches. Screaming and negativity just doesn't work like it did in Billy Martin's day. The coaches I see winning titles aren't the screamers, they demand attention to detail but they don't get commitment from players by reminding the girls of how many mistakes they made (and they will make many. :)).
I have no idea how this battle royale started and have a pretty thick skin but I can see why people might take issue with a few posts. We're all adults and we've all had to deal with criticism. But there are ways of conveying a negative opinion without condemnation or catty remarks, and telling someone they don't pass isn't the issue (example only), it is how the message is conveyed. Its kind of like going to a neighbors house for dinner and telling her steak was awful, the wine sucked, potatoes were terrible. It may all be true, but you can accomplish just as much by being a lot more selective by filtering some of the criticism.

Dontcha think being honest here is better than building people up and then allowing the real world to shoot them down? :idontknow: At least they get the point in private verses when they are walking the mall.

And I have not seen "brutally" honest. In fact it would probably be deleted as rude. Saying "I wouldn't be seen in that" isn't mean but it is honest. And usually the poster adds, "I would do this...."

I would rather someone tell me before I leave the house....

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

And I have not seen "brutally" honest. In fact it would probably be deleted as rude.

I would rather someone tell me before I leave the house....

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I agree that brutally honest isn't very common in the MtF CD forums. And I think it's fine to tell someone that how they are presenting isn't working well for them - but I think there is always room for tact.

I think when a girl asks 'is this skirt too short' and I offer that it is, she shouldn't get upset. Maybe with herself for asking such an inane question, but not with the response.

For a lot girls here that ask for requests for help or advice, they set themselves up for a disastrous thread by not asking the question correctly. I don't know if there is a seminar available to help craft and ask better questions, but they need to ask themselves first: 1) what am I trying to ask, 2) what answers are I am expecting, 3) do I want the truth or a pat on the back, and 4) will I survive the group's input?

This forum could deteriorate into a place where we simply ask 'what nail polish are you wearing tonight' or it can continue to mature where honest questions get honest responses free from ad hominem attack but also respectful of another's opinion, however idiosyncratic the response may be.

I never sugar coat, but I never eviscerate either, and I think I can see through those needy types who can't function without affirmation. What I tend to focus on instead of one's absolute performance or appearance relative to a standard is the amount of improvement they display or the effort they are making to improve themselves. My philosophy has nothing to do with achieving perfection or winning. I say "Be better today than you were yesterday" and then offer a means of getting to the next level. The result is that I have turned some sub-par talents into pretty good athletes. I don't see why this can't work equally well here.

I think we should be honest with one another but brutal? Beverley makes a good point to temper negativity with helpful comments. No need to sugar coat and no need to be brutal

My parents taught me if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I use this as a guideline. A number of times people have asked me questions like "how do I look". For me when I ask something like this I know I need more work. But it sure is good to hear something nice. I have a GG friend that has been helping me and I'm always asking how do I look. She never says you look great and she never says I look bad. Lately she said I'm getting better and improving. I will take that. After all I am a work in progress. Allie

I recently posted one of those "how do I look" questions. I did it knowing that I had problem areas and I wanted and welcomed CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. To me, that's kind of the point and that's mostly what I got. I got one negative PM which in itself wasn't a problem but the person didn't offer any advice either. Pretty useless and it annoyed me that the person was negative without any explanation.

On the flip side you see lots of posts where people only make those replies with the "you look wonderful" replies. Maybe the OP is looking for an ego boost or some support but I find those replies to be a bit disingenuous. There is nothing wrong with and something to be gained from the respectful opinions of the others here. I have far more respect and appreciation for a balanced, respectful, honest reply.

I never say anything I don't mean, so if I compliment someone, it's genuinely how I feel. If someone asks for an honest critique, I generally respond by PM.:)

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Originally Posted by suzanne

............. I coached my daughter's team in softball for several years. I would sometimes hear parents in the stands calling out something like "Good throw, Suzie" when it clearly wasn't. I would question them on this.

"I was just being positive". .......

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That's a big problem in our society and in our schools. Some teachers don't give grades on tests so the ones who did poorly won't feel bad. Well, they don't feel bad, but they don't learn either. Eventually, the truth will come out and they will fail in life.

If I were to post a picture and ask for opinions, I would want honest opinions (an "opinion is different from the "truth"). An opinion would be "At that distance you could pass as a woman." or "I think you should try more hip padding." or "I think your makeup makes you look like a hooker. Try a little less next time." Or "In my opinion you look like a man in a dress. Next time, stay in the house."

Most of us would probably not make a brutal comment we would just not comment at all or say "that's a nice skirt". That spares the hurt feelings, but at the same time, it might leave the "man in a dress" thinking that she was doing really well and she could walk down the street as a woman without stares or comments.

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Originally Posted by Julogden

..................... That's a problem with the written word, it can be taken the wrong way too easily if someone misreads what is written.

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With the wide variety of people on this forum, including people from different parts of the world, our written words are often misunderstood. It happens to me all the time.

I've come a long way in the last three years. Very little of my growth came from here. The vast majority of my CD education has come from CD girlfriends I've met while out and about. My wanting to look good comes from hanging out with girls that do! I take this forum with a grain of salt considering that so many here are still closeted, hiding from the wife, hiding from everyone, or bragging about being out! So I try to pass on some of the care and guidance I've been so fortunate to have received face to face. That's about the best I can contribute.

As a new person I hesitate to reply.... but ...............something occurred to me while reading this post. Don't you kind of have to know the person and be paying attention before you can answer the "How do I look?" question? When I get asked that question by my spouse it is tricky enough. There are times when I am expected to be critical (but respectful, and helpful, like when she is heading off to work and has an important meeting), there are times when I am expected to gush complements(when I sense she is looking for an ego boost), and there are still other times when I will get my "you know what" chewed no matter what I say!

If I didn't pay attention I might as well just doll out the "yup you look great dear!" and its the not paying attention part that is key and will get me in trouble.

Seana

When I look at a post,I don't immediately look at all the things that may need improvement....you have those vultures out there in the form of overly critical human beings,I don't think they have the ability to seek out the good in an individual.People need to learn to balance out constructive criticism with tact and in a way it will be effective.

When making a post,one should finish by checking spelling,grammar and the the nature of Its content.Then ask ourselves,is it hateful,to direct,offensive,might someone misunderstand the meaning or point?I feel there's a way to be direct and nice if we just take our time and reread before posting.

If people don't want me to be honest.... then say so up front... Here or anywhere... I demand people to be honest to me... At work I have become the one who speaks out to the CEO in meetings and have gotten plenty advise along the lines of "you can't say that to the President of the company" If they don't want to hear my honest opinion the stop inviting me to there stupid meetings.... they haven't so far.... Friends say that I can say what I want since I'm not afraid to die..... If my comments are construed as being a personal attack they are not.... If no one wants to here what I have to say... find.... I'll go say it somewhere else...... as long as I can see myself talk.... I'm good... and there's chocolate involved.... lol

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Originally Posted by Celeste

............ When making a post,one should finish by checking spelling,grammar and the the nature of Its content.Then ask ourselves,is it hateful,to direct,offensive,might someone misunderstand the meaning or point?I feel there's a way to be direct and nice if we just take our time and reread before posting.

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Yes one should. ;)

This is a very good point. I feel there are two kinds of picture posts: those that ask for feedback and those that don't. There isn't much to say about the ones that don't. Maybe the OP is just sharing a particular moment with us, end of story. Regarding the ones that do, however, I feel excessive niceness (or empty flattery) may be politically correct, but it does not really help someone who is looking for specific advice to up their game. There are ways to go about it without being rude or destructive. The goal is, IMO, to focus on sharing transferable knowledge the person can try out on their own, rather than to tell them what to do (and why what they are doing now is no good). My two cents.

Personally I think things are fine the way they are. When something is working why change it? Sometimes we disagree but I don't see any real big issues here. I'm not changing anything.

I have always said that if there no fear of failure there is no reason to try and succeed. When everyone gets a trophy, or a certificate or even promoted to the next level just for participating then there is no reason to try and do well at that activity. It has led to a lot of "close enough" ideals.

In this forum the fear of failure can be huge for some. We don't need to throw them to the wolves just to be nice though. We need to inspire them to do better. When we say "You rock girl" and she looks like she just was run over by a passing bus, some will take that as "I can go out and be safe" and then when they get the looks or the laughter, they are devastated. Most here will never make the majors but there is no reason they can't play at a highly competitive level and enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by suzanne

There seems to be something of a tempest around one of our esteemed members being brutally honest in her posts, to the point of being mean in the view of some others.

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I applaud this member for taking this stance. This is exactly the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

I see this site heading in the wrong direction.Sorry
Used to be supportive and reassuring to those that aren't sure about themselves looking for acceptance. We saw some beautiful ladies grow on this site from very awkward first pictures in the beginning. I fear new people will just give up and go back in the closet and suffer after being slammed on their first pic attempts. Seems there are a few here that bash others every chance they get and then run off and act like they didn't do anything.
And some that claimed to never go out in public but some how just started going out and now feel they know everything.

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When you post a pic, you open yourself to comments. That’s how it works. If you think you’ll only get glowing comments, you’re living in a fantasy world. What’s the point of posting a pic of your too big and fat feet squished into too small sandals ? Honesty is the best policy.

Were all here and in the same boat - if it's rocked too hard someone might fall overboard - stay seated listen to more experienced sailors and try to get along...........sometimes a response is not needed (if you catch my drift)..............Debra

I just want to add my two cents to this, so things may get dangerous lol

First, if you ask me for My opinion, I am going to give it to you, free of charge, but that doesn't mean I am going to sugar coat it in any way, shape, or form. I will not go out of my way to be brutally honest, just to hurt your feelings as much as possible, but I am sure going to be honest. If You post a picture and ask "do I pass?" and you don't, be sure I am going to tell you such. I would feel very guilty if I told you that you passed and then came back to read your in the hospital because you got jumped while out. I'd rather hurt your feelings than have physical harm befall you.

If you ask directly, "do you like my new skirt?" then my attention is going to solely be on your skirt and that is what my opinion is going to be based upon.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

Don't ask for "honest opinions" if you can't handle an honest answer.

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agreed 100% :thumbsup: