Male vs Female movements. Being feminine rather than being effeminate...

If you ignore the obvious physical differences between a male and a female body and also igbnore any learned or cultural mannerisms, how different are the natural movements of a male and and a female person? Does bone structure and muscle tone cause the two biological genders to have a diffrent way of moving? Do you think if I was able to learn perfectly how move in a female way but still have a 100% male appearance people, I would now be seen as an effeminate male? If a male with effeminate mannerisms were to crossdress and physically pass as a female, would his effeminate maleness still appear as effeminate maleness? I am asking all these questions because my long term plans are to transition but am unable to dress at present and would like to use some spare time to "unlearn" how to move like a male. Are there any good training videos that could teach me how to do this? I want to learn how to be feminine without being effeminate.

Kathyrn, its been mentioned by at least one GG here that what we characterize as essentially female or essentially male mannerisms and movements can vary immensely from one individual to another. And perhaps very masculine mannerisms may not be seen as such in an otherwise feminine person. Still, I think there's something to be gained from observation. Certainly, you may pick up some good techniques from videos, but also become a student of people... Take a little time now and then to watch women and men as they pass by, as they sit down for dinner or order movie tickets. You may pick up some subtleties that can help you achieve what your seeking.

Feminine vs. effeminate. ....got it. :thumbsup:

We are what we are, and just because we prefer to dress as female (well, me anyway) but don't necessarily need to pour on the Mr. Humphries (John Inman) from the old Britcom TV show Are You Being Served?, or any stereotypical effeminate gay guy doesn't invalidate us being crossdressers, transssexual, or transgender. Sure, I make an effort to float when I walk in heels, but I am still me.

Go to a mixed yoga class....I have been going to yoga for almost ten years and it dawned on me about a year ago that being in a mixed yoga class is great place to learn and practice feminine movements completely unnoticed!

I believe Denae Doyle, a famous femininity coach has videos for that Hon. Do a search on her. In any case, when I dance I have feminine, not effeminate movements naturally. You learn to use your hands more and when you walk or dance you do it from the hips. If your long range plans are to transition and you have HRT, it should expand your hips enough to be able to do this. To practice just remember one foot in front of the other when walking as a woman.:)

Hi Kathryn, to add to Kim's good advice below, I'd suggest you work on your flexibility, especially your hip flexibility. In general women are way more flexible, and (in my humble opinion) this lends a more natural flow to their walk and movements. Join a yoga class or just start with a good stretching routine with emphasis on your hips and lower back.
Good luck and best wishes on you beautiful journey!
Hugs, Jules

It's true there is a wide range of more feminine or masculine energies within each gender. When you observe a group of female friends sitting at a table, some will have more feminine looks and energies than others (shorter and curvier vs. taller and more angular). The same is true for men. Some will have what is considered a baby-face or a pretty-boy face (many actors/models come to mind), while others will have more angular bone structures ... but it will still be apparent which are the men and which are the women, in other words there is a smaller difference within each gender than there is between both genders.

When people walk, most do walk somewhere in between the John Wayne Getting Off His Horse look, and the Model Sashaying Down the Runway look. lol

(To see this, move the slider slightly to the left or right here: Biomotions Lab)

But still there is a difference in how men and women walk and this is because women generally have wider hips. Their center of gravity is physically different than a man's. This is why CDers who try too hard to walk like a woman look very fake for two reasons: they don't have the body to match the walk, and most women don't walk in the exaggerated way as the slider completely to the right in the Biomotions Lab demo above.

:2c:

Edit - I used the term "gender" in my first paragraph. I should have used the word "sex". Female sex vs. male sex. Gender identity is separate from this.

For record john wayne walked in a rather effeminate manner. Watch any one of his movies!

When you go to Graumans Chinese Theatre, in Hollywood and look at the size of his feet in the cement you can possibly assume why.
I think John Wayne had size eight feet. :)

I think this is something where people see someone walking/talking/otherwise being out and about that is obviously a woman, no way they could be a man, but they act a bit less feminine than a lot of other women but they aren't called anything but a female. Perhaps a couple great examples of someone who acts very natural, if not a bit awkward, could be Jennifer Lawrence and Kristen Stewart. I don't see anyone saying "Oh they aren't a woman cause they don't act super feminine."

This applies the other way as well. It's just a matter of having and owning a presentation. You don't have to be like a model or even like a lot of the actresses to be seen as female. If you didn't see any of the upper body, and only saw some legs in coveralls underneath a car you might think "man" but if you saw a pair of bare shaved legs wearing a pair of short shorts leaned over the fender of a car with only a little glimpse of the upper body, you'd probably think "woman," why? Cause we are taught that short shorts and shaved legs are a feminine trait that women display, despite the fact that working on cars is still (at least in a fair amount of areas) seen as mostly as masculine trait.

Two things here. Yes, a male with feminine mannerisms looks just plain out of place. Sometimes you can't put your finger on it. But you'll notice it.

Second. The word effeminate has been so widely taken over by the gay community, that it's just not used in any context other that describing a feminine acting gay male. Like the word butch, it now only means one thing. Most of us are feminine acting. I know it's just words, but calling somebody effeminate can lead to confrontation if he is feminine, but not gay.

I'm one that watches women on a daily basis to gain knowledge. Mannerisms vary widely in women as does the walk so a tutor is basically showing how they walk which is fine.
I really don't think there is a definitive right or wrong way to present a female walk.
Achieving the illusion of a female shape is more important than the actual walk IMO.

You do not have to work too hard to get the walk, but you do have to unlearn the male mannerisms. Males tend to make themselves bigger, tend to spread the feet farther apart, take longer steps. Start with keeping the elbows in more, feet closer together and shorter steps and then take it from there. Try to walk so that your knees almost touch everytime they pass each other as an excersize.

Trying to make yourself smaller is the key. Males tend to automatically try to spread out to look bigger without thinking about it. Do not try swishing or moving the hips a lot, that looks fake.

Then again there is a lot more to it than just walking. It is in the way you sit, bend over, carry stuff, sit down and a million other things.

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Originally Posted by almostalady

...Males tend to automatically try to spread out to look bigger without thinking about it...

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I think this part of male mannerisms actually comes from an innate male tendency to be bigger. Be bigger = spread out more = have control over more territory.

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...It is in the way you sit, bend over, carry stuff...and a million other things.

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Exactly. Women tend to sit a very small manner and will typically keep their legs closer together.
Bending over: women tend to do it more from the knees and men tend to do it more from the hips/waist.

Women just tend to have a more fluid appearance from what I can tell. Also, it might have to do with being built to carry a child, but I would say that average women seem to have more strength proportionately in their legs compared to average men. Men tend to have more strength overall, but more of it is in their upper bodies, more for carrying big stuff.

Interesting posts by all. One thing I've noticed is that, when I see one of "us" out and about, there are subtle clues that I notice and identify before I even see facial features. If I knew what they were I'd say it but it's really more of an intuitive thing to me. But the one common trait I see is that cd's often try too hard to get the gestures down, or act more stereotypically feminine (gestures, hands bending at wrist, touching on the arm, balancing on the stiletto of a heel repeatedly, swishing the skirt, etc.) than many women. I'm not being critical about this, just noting how hard it is for a CD to blend.

I've noticed the same too, Jacqueline, and I agree that the best way is to try hard to not exaggerate the movement. In other words, just walk naturally.

An anecdote: I once tried to walk like a guy, with my SO's coaching. Just for fun. It was laughable. I also got into the exaggeration trap and I did walk like a very sore John Wayne who had just ended a three day horse ride. lol. It's very difficult but all I had to do was learn to walk as I do naturally but just a little stiffer, almost imperceptibly so. And then it worked.

Thank all of you for your great advice. All very useful and will be taking on board some of it. I think the key is not to be too concerned about my movements and mannerisms and to carefully observe carefully how genetic girls move, behave and gesticulate. xxx Kathryn

I do remember hearing about a hormone that is typically a lot more present in the biological female body that makes things like the joints in the knees and hips a bit more flexible. That, coupled with the typical female tendency to be more fluid in their movements means that women just tend to look more fluid.

Like Reine said about her experiment in learning how to walk like a guy, she just moved a bit stiffer, but not enough for her to truly notice it. Just let yourself loose a little and you'll have the female walk down, I think. Another thing that might really help is getting at least a wedge type heel. Since walking in a heel requires placing your foot differently and that subtle difference in placing your foot can go all the way up to your hips and waist, it can naturally add a little feminine touch to your stride, especially since men typically don't wear heels.

I would add that dance or zumba classes would possibly help you loosen your hips and move smoother. I attend 2 zumba classes a week when I can and I think it both good for me and giving me a lot more flexibility. Observation will also give you ideas too. Try filming yourself and you will have a better view if your movements.

Following some of the advice, today I was observing females walking in the street and comparing to males. The way females put one foot in front of the other closer together is quite subtle, but true. I have also noticed the way womens arms typically hang vertically bellow the shoulder, with the elbows close to the waist and then flare out. Men's tend to hand at an angle, an the whole arm tents to swing in s straight line. In order for me to do this unconscioulsy I need to lear how to relax my shoulders. So I can see how Yoga might help to achieve this. Thanks for the advice. i will continue to observe and see how I walk in order to improve my walking.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn Philips

Does bone structure and muscle tone cause the two biological genders to have a different way of moving?

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Yes. Yes it does.

You can learn to imitate the natural movements of a female, of course, even the artificially overdone ones, such as the most obvious crossing one foot over the front of the other when walking in high heels as is done by models on runways, or the exaggerated arm swaying that some women often do when they walk. Be what you want to be, walk the way you want to walk.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn Phillips

Do you think if I was able to learn perfectly how move in a female way but still have a 100% male appearance people, I would now be seen as an effeminate male? If a male with effeminate mannerisms were to crossdress and physically pass as a female, would his effeminate maleness still appear as effeminate maleness?

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Effeminacy has more to it than just body movements – it’s an entire mindset that runs the “show,” as it were. If you could move like a woman, according to your definition of what that may look like, you may appear effeminate to people who are on the lookout for effeminates, but are you effeminate in speech, mannerisms, and emotional reactions to things? I feel I am an effeminate male, but my movements don’t really give me away…

To some, effeminate maleness would carry over into any female presentation. You can certainly act the “part,” i.e. appear to BE a woman, but it takes a lot of practice. I would think that suppressing the male to reveal the female, real or imagined, is an ongoing process, if that is the desired goal. Personally, I keep my effeminacy at home, marinate myself in it, and slowly become more and more tender over time…

I once knew a boy who moved in an effemiante manner, but he was not effeminate per se. Can you blame that on bone structure? :idontknow:

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Originally Posted by tiffanyjo89

This applies the other way as well. It's just a matter of having and owning a presentation. You don't have to be like a model or even like a lot of the actresses to be seen as female. If you didn't see any of the upper body, and only saw some legs in coveralls underneath a car you might think "man" but if you saw a pair of bare shaved legs wearing a pair of short shorts leaned over the fender of a car with only a little glimpse of the upper body, you'd probably think "woman," why? Cause we are taught that short shorts and shaved legs are a feminine trait that women display, despite the fact that working on cars is still (at least in a fair amount of areas) seen as mostly as masculine trait.

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And I think that "cues" like this go a huge way toward "passability" in a lot of situations! It just isn't "one thing" that someone notices at first glance that "genders" you,it is a combination of "things".And one "obviously female" thing really can carry more weight than the other "things",a casual glance observes.Friday PM,as I was driving home for the weekend,I had a dress malfunction so my pretty pink bra was exposed to the Southbound truckers as they passed me..They were so focused on the exposed pink bra,that they didn't question the rest of me! Bra,boobs,sunglasses and hair in a clip..must be a girl..

The main thing is that you have to put yourself into the movements. It's not just something you do it's someone you are. This is one reason I suggest dancing. You can become one with the music and let the energy flow through you. Believing in yourself goes quite a long way.:battingeyelashes::)

I've always tried to walk naturally without any exaggeration of male or female movements. I find it humorous that some men walk like they're ready to rumble. They look like they're headed to the wrestling ring with arms spread wide and bodies slightly hunched. The difference of skeletal structure and muscle/fat tissue of males and females is interesting, but there are also the learned actions that coincide with one's mental self image. The learned actions is where exaggeration comes into play.

There are a number of gay men where I work. Interacting with them at work and observing them interact with others, they have pretty normal male mannerisms and speech. But away from work, observing them in social settings with other gay men, they turn on their effemininity (if there is such a word) in their mannerisms and speech.

I started with the Biomation video and various books on more traditional feminine deportment. It's not that I was interested in being a debutante (necessarily) but understanding what was expected and how to accomplish it. Slowly the instincts changed and something as simple as never standing with parallel feet became normal. I find now I can turn it on and off by changing my mental gender, though it still feels odd to move as Tina when dressed as a guy!