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The other day I was walking dressed from a bar in the gay neighborhood along with a TS. We passed across four guys sitting outside their hostel. They started shouting "beautiful boys" "hey boys" "come on guys" etc loudly. We just kept walking past them.
Later we saw a cop car pass by and we were wondering if we should have waved to stop him and tell him about the incident. Was what the four guys did legal?
There is probably some statute or other that they violated, but the question is whether the cops would be interested in figuring out which statute it is and then tracking down the guys who were yelling at you, witnesses, etc. The probable answer is "no" since all the guys would do is deny saying anything.
Ignore the idiots. Don't let them determine whether you are going to have a nice evening or not. You might also take your business to a better neighborhood where such behavior is frowned upon.
Actually, They were still standing there when we saw the cop car at the end of the block.
Sara - Sorry for you that it happened. You did the right thing by ignoring the creeps and walking away.
You did the right thing, Sara. If those young men have so little happiness in their lives that it amuses them to make catcalls like that at a couple of ladies who are minding their own business, they don't deserve even the attention you'd give them by reporting them.
If they had threatened or endangered you in some fashion, though, that'd be something else again. Don't hesitate to throw the book at actual assailants!
- Amy
Is it illegal to call out to someone? Did they threaten you? Did you tell them to stop? ...all things that matter when the law is concerned, but does it really matter if its legal? Leave the police free to catch more serious criminals and just move on, get away as quickly as possible.
Essentially they were exercising their right of free speech and it is extremely doubtful that the police could do anything about such behavior unless they were causing a public disturbance or they threatened you. Even then the police would be powerless to do anything unless they actually witnessed the guys causing a disturbance or heard the treats. Except in rare cases, such as domestic violence*, police have to witness a misdemeanor before they can take any action. In your case even if threats had been made it would come down to your word against their word unless there were witnesses.
I suspect that if those guys continue to harass passers-by the police will eventually notice and stop and talk to them, pointing out that such antics might not be the safest form of entertainment in the Hillcrest area.
In any case your wisest and safest thing to do is to completely ignore them and just walk on by, not always the easiest thing to do I know. Now if you possess a Black Belt in one of the martial arts and your confident you can take these four low-life idiots then go ahead and tell them that you consider them pond-scum that couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. Once you’ve dispatched said low-life’s you simply explain to the police that you are sorry for the disturbance but you were attacked by these four thugs while walking along the sidewalk minding your own business and you consider it your own good fortune that you took a self-defense glass.
* Domestic violence is a special case because in California police are required to make an arrest if there is physical evidence that domestic violence has occurred – scratches, red marks, bruises, etc.
The winner always turn their heads and look at the positive side! You did good!
Everything they did was perfectly legal. If it were me I'd have lifted up my skirt. Grabbed my crotch, given them the finger and blown them a kiss
Best to ignore them. If you wanted to make an issue of it or press charges, you would be in the spotlight, unless that doesn't really matter to you. Just a thought.:)
Sorry for the experience, Sara. But you did right, best to ignore. Speech is proceed up to the point of theats of violence. The law also considers the physical actions of the people.. moving toward you in a threatening manor, blocking the sidewalk, etc. Police can also use "disturbing the peace" charge for any disruptive behavior they witness. But even though these people probably weren't breaking the law, I wouldn't hesitate telling the police.. The name calling could lead to more serious acts, so they'd want to know. xxx
Pay no attention and just keep walking...no harm meant,so no harm done..Police would just laugh...
I am sorry Sarah,
I know it is embarrassing and disturbing, but as others have pointed out...
"Tell someone that cares."
We do, but it is a hazard we live with and a fact of life.
It is unfortunate that there are people out there that go past the point of just taking notice to someone they see as different or not quite the norm. More unfortunate is there are those that have to speak and remark on it! As far as legality goes, although you might have been intimidated or embarrassed it did not seem as though anything went past the point to be threatening. Ignoring things like that and not being defensive or confrontational is the best course of non action. It was best you did what you did! Ignore others ignorance.
You got read by some louts who thought saying something out loud was appropriate. Yeah, it's legal. Unfortunate, but still legal. Brush it off.
You are in the USA. If you were black and they were white and if they had used any racial slurs, that would probably be illegal. As a crossdresser, you have no such protection.
GGs sometimes have to endure the same sort of unwanted attention and comments. All you can do is continue to walk away. They may grow up someday, they may not.
Sounds like Free Speech in action and unless it's totally derogatory or obscene you probably would not have any legal issue here.
Best just to ignore the oafs and continue on your way.
Suck it up and keep on walking. It is a fight not worth having. (You might break a nail.)
(some) boy's will be boy's - the ridicule is there for the asking and unless you are so convincing to present your self as 100% female it can/may/will happen -- ignoring the blokes was the proper action...............................Debra
Ask Paula Deen how that "free speech" thing works! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl T
Think I'd have gone over and see what they wanted.... Maybe they just wanted to know where you bought your purse? or got you makeup done?
What they did was wrong but not breaking a law.Best to walk on by and not pay any attention to them.
Speech cannot be held illegal by the state unless such speech advocates imminent violence. In particular, "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action" Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969)
So the quick answer is making any comment, while perhaps boorish, cannot be held illegal. So even if California wished to make such speech illegal, the constitution protects the individuals right to say almost anything.
She exercised her right of free speech, and was held accountable for what she said. The Constitution doesn't say there won't be consequenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by linda allen
Being rude isn't illegal and neither is being offensive. I think you'd need to reasonably fear for your safety before any question of legality would enter into it.
Yes! Unfortunately, this is what women put up with on a daily basis. Responding to the remarks/jerks simply emboldens them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sara.s
Yup - completely legal to talk in public.Now if they said things like "I'd like to cut your head off and use it as a bowling ball" then you could conceivably get them for assault, but it probably wouldn't go far.
Reminds me of a time I decided to wander through a local mall wearing a long denim skirt, nice knit top, and sandals. Now I can by no means pass since I'm mostly bald and have had a beard for 40 years and I'm not interested in shaving it off, so I definitely was not blending in at all. Anyway, nobody paid me any attention at all as I walked the entire length of the mall and headed back to my starting point. About halfway back I passed a group of guys, most of them probably "twenty-somethings" who were standing around on the other side of the mall. As I passed them I heard a bunch of "wolf whistles" - I took a quick look in the nearest store window and saw they were all looking my direction. Then I looked at the other people in my vicinity: they were all looking at those guys - not at me! It looked like they had tried to get a reaction out of me, but only succeeded in calling attention to themselves! I smiled and continued with my walk...
I really doubt that it is illegal. Putting up with assholes is something we have to deal with because of the amount of freedom of speech we have.
Deedee
I assume that both you and the TS each has a peni5, so technically they were accurate, no? Unless the TS friend has an F on his/her government issued ID.Quote:
Originally Posted by sara.s
You were wise to not involve the cops. They might have worse prejudice and take you to jail for some minor thing just to humiliate you.
A men's jail is a very bad place to be when you are in a dress... and if either of you has a peni5 , that's where you would be.
Readers should keep in mind that the original poster was in California, where there are transgender rights laws.
What I do not know is what the laws in that jurisdiction include, exactly.
Laws about discrimination are usually relevant to commerce and the provision of services, employment, housing, and the like. In the USA, those laws seldom refer to speech in a public place.
The place that I would look, if I were researching this, would be in Civil Rights Acts. Sometimes Civil Rights laws contain protection for dignity in situations where the actions are not otherwise illegal.
California does not require you have a gender reassignment surgery to be legally female. Also, many cops assigned to patrol Hillcrest (the neighborhood I was in) are themselves gay or at least lgbt. So they are more liberal than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonGirl
This is America. Everyone has the right be an ass. Only threatening comments can be construed as actionable and at that, it is he said she said.
Forget that crap. Walk on and don't give anyone the satisfaction of knowing they got to you.
Nope, it only says that congress can't regulate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
They didn't break any laws because sexual harassment is legal.
Sara - some day, they will grow up - you already have!
I doubt they were breaking the law. And the police would probably not have been inclined to do anything...I have seen them ignore much worse, including a domestic violence call....but keep in mind that a group of four boys will quickly feel compelled to ridicule us...out of their own fear.....if they don't make fun of us, someone might think they are ok with crossdressing...an impossible scenario for a young stud....your options in reacting are limited...CDs have been beaten (probably not often) in such confrontations, and it's hard to fight in heels and a dress....bottom line, we can't control the immature, even cruel behavior of others, but we can control how it affects us....Walking away, and still being comfortable who you are, is I think a victory. The young assholes will never struggle with the dilemmas we do, and would never have the courage to do what we do.
As a native Californian I would like to clarify, yes we have transgender protection laws here, most of us are proud of that fact. But in this case, no laws where broken, even with our laws, we still believe in free speech, which is all that was. The louts stayed on the opposite side of the street, as far as reported, did not swear, threaten or try in any way to harm them, they just where rude. While many would like to make rude illegal, if we did how many of us would wind up behind bars.
Unfortunately, if you are going out, it's something you just have to risk, that's why everyone around here are always preaching to play safe, there are mean people in this world, and if you wear a dress, from time to time your going to meet one.
The best policy is to put a whole lot of gone between you and them.
I see San Antonio just passed an anti-discrimination law against the gay and transgendered communities. It was reported that there were 180 other large cities where similar laws were passed within the last few years. Woo Hoo!
It's the Giuliani rule. When Mayor Giuliani wanted to stop panhandlers who threatened visitors to New York, he was told it wasn't allowed, because the pan-handlers had freedom of speech. They could sit on the corner and shake their cups and ask for money because they weren't hurting anybody. Giuliani was then reminded that if they made THREATS, that would be third degree assault, and the people could be taken in for the night, would pay a fine, and would be released the next day. The ploy worked brilliantly. The pan handlers had to change their tactics, blessing those who DID give money rather than trying to curse or threaten those who did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by sara.s
So long as there were no direct threats, they were within their legal rights. Any threat of any kind however, would have been enough to take them down, book them, and have them spend the night in jail. Often, men who are very intoxicated make this mistake, and because they are otherwise drunk and disorderly, the 3rd degree assault is enough to keep them overnight until they sober up.
There is an interesting twist however. By calling you "boys" while you were presenting as women, they were drawing attention to you, making you a target, and putting you at risk of actual violence. This is the same reason why it's illegal in most states for a business to force a TS or CD presenting as female to use the men's room. It makes them a target for those who could harm them physically, financially (telling employers or coworkers), or socially (outing them at church). Most businesses don't want to risk the liability, especially the liability if they made a scene, so they normally only intervene if there appears to be "peeping" or "flashing" in the ladies room. Obviously, threatening behavior such as lewd remarks in the ladies room could get YOU the ride downtown.
The officer might have observed the group, to see if they did anything else to anyone that might have been considered threatening. In addition, he might have let the owner know that these particular customers had insulted passers by. Businesses generally don't like having customers who drive away potential customers. You were walking by a bar in a gay neighborhood - do you really think the owner wants those clowns scaring away paying customers - like you? Who else are they insulting? intimidating? How many customers did they drive away before you came by? How many after?Quote:
Later we saw a cop car pass by and we were wondering if we should have waved to stop him and tell him about the incident.
Was what the four guys did legal?
It's quite likely that even though what they did might have been legal, there may have been consequences if they continued the behavior over any period of time.
If that's your real photo, and your friend was TS, then neither of you were so "over the top" as to draw attention to yourself. Very likely the owner either 86'd them, or told them to take a seat - in the back of the bar, next to the kitchen doors.