So, you wear Panties..

I have been thinking these days about how us MtF's of all types think of ourselves. I want to speak candidly about it to open a platform on this, so don't take offence, none is intended.

I feel as if we think "Oh No!! I wear panties - everyone is going to hate me if they find out..." or "I'm too strange, I'm weird who could love a man in a dress!!". I started to think, well I'm guilty of thinking the same way also. Yes, those who are in long term relationships built of a foundation of almost truths with their SO, it will be strange and people are totally within their right to reject you for such deceit. But for everyone else, why are we afraid?

If you came out to everybody today, who would you lose? I thought about this and I came to my mind that, hell - nobody significant. Its like how coming out as gay would have been a few decades ago, people close to you don't care about the dresses they care about you (exception of untold wives, they ought to have always known). Only those people who have something against you would leave, and bon voyage to them if they want trouble. The difficulty is in accepting yourself.

So, you wear Panties - you want a medal? So, you wear a dress - big whop, wonna fight about it? Stop thinking you are special, it doesn't help, we are not special! We are normal people, like everyone else! If we treat it as some horrible secret, and hating ourselves for it, then dam no wonder people think crossdressing is bad. If you know it your heart you want to dress, do it - and don't hide it. Being in plain sight is a relief, being honest with people you care about is as cathartic as dressing. And you start to genuinely ask yourself why you do it, and that question that has haunted you while in the closet suddenly answers itself. If you can't accept yourself, maybe your friends will and then you do too.

For some specific situations sure, it is sensible to stay professional obviously and of course, sometimes I don't need how I dress to be under scrutiny (much like what religion I have). But this closet culture we have is damaging to everything we do, dress how you like. You are free and you are not stranger than the next guy, you aren't the only one in the world. Break out of your chains and live your life, we don't need to take ourselves so seriously!

It's one thing if we are single, quite another if we are in a relationship. Then it becomes about more than us and we have to consider the feelings of others.I personally never had a problem with it. I did talk to a professional counselor to figure out how to deal with the ones in my life who did have a problem with it.That is where the rubber really meets the road in connection with CDing.:)

Yes Sara,
I wear panties and dresses.
I'm a lumberjack and I'm Okay! :)

Kate, I feel it is only more than us when we are secretive, because you display a false imagine to everyone around you so they will be upset if you tell much later. But if we stopped hiding and I know too being in a relationship myself that's easier said than done., we are better off with openness and being unashamed of our complete selves. That accepting of self garners respect of friends and support if you aren't quite there yet.

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Originally Posted by (Sara)

So, you wear Panties - you want a medal? So, you wear a dress - big whop, wonna fight about it?

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And yes, that is one of the things I want to avoid. Perhaps a 'boy named sue' enjoyed getting into a fight everywhere he went over sissy comments or being picked on, but I wouldn't, and I know if pushed, and I retaliated I'd probably kill someone and of course the whole world would blame the perverted crossdresser.


My own opinion, based on how I see my coworkers treat gay and transgender people in our workplace, is that things would occur behind my back that would affect my job. In the past I have come out to people, people who should really have been more accepting, but it became a 'not in my backyard' situation. They accept it, but don't want to deal with it in their own lives, and so I gradually got removed from that (missed invitations to social functions, etc., eventually no contact at all). While I understand the concept that they may not have been worth my friendship anyway, what I wound up with, was no one at all. That being unacceptable, I've decided simply not to share the part of my life that upsets people.

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Originally Posted by (Sara)

... Its like how coming out as gay would have been a few decades ago...

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I think this is exactly correct. And just a few decades ago, outed men lost jobs, friends, families.... It is a big deal. now, I do believe your real friends will stand buy you. i would do that for any of my friends. But cross dressing is only a small part of my life. My friends don't have to deal with it. When you are gay, it is a BIG part of your life and noticeable (think dating). Cross dressings not that.

So true but I'm scared to test that idea out.

Thanks Sara; I think what you say is a general corrective but perhaps you are like me and don't experience the societal pressure that many CDs seem to feel. I haven't worked for anyone else for about 30 years or so and I just don't have the experience that most people have of the judgments of coworkers. My only coworker is my wife and partner who is tremendously supportive and accepting. I do know I stopped working for other people partly because I could not stand the social dynamics. I am lucky that I was so devoted to my art that I could and was willing to take the financial hit that working for myself as an artist entailed. But I do agree that the worst enemy that most CDs have is the inner critic that tells them that people will judge them harshly for being gender non-conforming, that they will be ostracized, gossiped about and perhaps insulted or humiliated. In general and out and about in public I don't really believe this is true, although, of course, it does depend on the environment in which you choose to dress. I think you might also be underestimating the 1) thrill of naughtiness and the thrill that comes from the possibility of discovery, 2) the genuine identity confusion that gender non-conformity entails, 3) the fact that cross dressing cuts across all social strata, levels of educational attainment, race, and sexual proclivity. It's not a defined section of society. How much do cross dressers have in common, apart from being gender non conforming in the way they dress? We don't know because despite their obvious and rather obvious existence throughout human history nobody really wants to study them (which tells you something about the power of gender norms). So while I really do wish that cross dressers would come out of the closet and stop beating themselves up for being gender nonconforming I'm a bit pessimistic of it happening in the immediate future. But again, thanks for the attempt! I am very much heartened by the youth of today, who in rather large numbers, don't seem to care very much about the way their peers define themselves by gender. Maybe things will change at a much faster pace? For my grandchildren's case, I hope so.

I have two teenage sons. If I revealed to all, they would have to deal with a lot of negative consequences. Actually lose people, not many, but there too it would likely have some negative consequences. No doubt there would likely be some who would be on my wife to leave me. Friends of mine may not know how to deal with it and may become more distant. If I was young and single I may look at things differently, but there is more than just me to consider.

until here are protections in place for TG people for jobs, living conditions, rights to go where they want and the right to be with who they wish, it is a risk. But will we get the rights? It will take a lot longer than it did for gays because most TGs are able to hide away and pretend they aren't and live a "normal" life. Until they care for those around them and they stand up for the "right" to be out...it ain't gonna happen

i think saras point was if more people were just honest then society would just say thats the way it is. I do know about trying to hide things as well though. Most people dont want to be that first person who tries it.

Sara I think I see what your saying and maybe how I'm going about it may fit what you are saying.
I've never been out in full fem but I have blended my wardrobe a lot. I have worn my cute ankle boots out in make mode many times now, I've put on a bit of makeup several times but not really to pass as a women. I've gone on my exercise walk in my girly shorts and tops. See I just want to wear clothes that make me feel comfortable, do I have to pass as a women do I have to blend or can I just be me and not worry what people say.
That is my struggle

LeighR I do just what you do. I go out in public wearing mostly women's clothes (though not dresses quite yet - maybe I should get a kilt). I am sure most women know the clothes are not men's clothes. I also wear make up. I wear thigh high stockings and short shorts and women's blouses. I have yet to receive anything but compliments. The men in this town mostly really dress badly but if they pay any attention they look a bit relieved. I do believe that more people would be more accepting of cross dressing if more men wore women's clothes in public without trying to pass as women. There was once a time when women wearing trousers was as scandalous as men wearing dresses (and in some parts of the world women are still forbidden to wear pants). That changed because women just refused to back down. Men could do the same, and, actually, in the many cities they are.

Sara, what is your CD'ing status, are you OUT, do you practice what you preach?

Wonder how many lumber Janes there are in those woods and yes you are very OK

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Originally Posted by (Sara)

If you came out to everybody today, who would you lose?

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The respect of my family and would also have to see the embarrassment on their faces.
Shunned by my neighbors.
Pointed at in the street by people that know me.
Loose all respect from most of the people in the sport I am involved with.

But apart from that everything would be dandy!

Suzy, do you really think that everyone around you is that backward. :O Surely people have moved on from pointing in the street, that must be horrible to have such intolerance surrounding you.

I live in the real world and I know my bit of it. Simple as that Sara.:strugglin

I have been working in the trades for years. I know the opinions of the guys who work with me. Some would accept some would not and never speak to me, my wife, my children again. I know what would happen from the conversations at work, the bar, coffee shop, etc. It would be like moving to a new city in a different state and starting over from scratch. (If I ever do move I might consider it but) I don't want to rip my family apart for my own feelings no matter how strong they are. I guess that I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK too Beverly (funny song) For me dressing was something that grew slowly and I built my life without considering it. I don't want to move yet.

Nice post Sara, except that you disqualified your otherwise strong stand with your qualifier in the last paragraph. You might not have anything to lose, maybe that's what makes you different. And I don't wear panties, I go commando.

your kids.......!

Those are not excuses, those are reasons. But --if I win the big lottery? This was in reference to losing your job and not being able to support your family.

Until any one of us, has walked a mile in another's shoes and KNOWS exactly what the repercussions would be for that person and would be willing to accept them for themselves... then no one here is qualified to tell each other what they should or should not do. It a personal choice to share or not share with the world at large.

As Suzy said... I live in the real world. In my bit of it.... there would humiliation for my wife and children. My CDing... is not their burden to bear. :2c:

if its one thing i have learned so far from revealing my CD'ing to my wife and talking to our therapist (which we were going to before this little secret came out) is that..........there are more of us than we think. or at least i thought.

remember that. it helps me sometimes.

for what its worth girls

have a great day,
kelly

It is a good point, and well made Sara, i saw a guy striding confidently down the sidewalk in strait skirt, patterned pantyhose and 4"pumps, and plain black top, short hair and neatly trimmed facial hair. My thoughts were: damn, that's what i would wear, he looks so confident and why shouldn't he be? and i realised that there is very little reason why i couldn't do the same apart from being incredibly self-conscious and wanting to keep my life simple. I think there is a critical mass coming/here, with the increasing popularity of Cosplay, manscaping, marriage equality and a general appreciation of human diversity. Even though i don't have a strong desire to go public, i feel i should just for sheer solidarity. Great Post,

Tanya

I've been reading a lot of transgender related articles on line lately, and reading the comments that follow. I agree with Suzy, there is a lot more that can be lost than I'm wiling to put out there at this point in my life. But then Revolutions are fought by the young. But there is still a lot of bigotry out there, so wear that dress with confidence but wear it where you will be safe.

I think like so many other things that have been socially "Taboo" the acceptance but NIMBY attitude is slowly becoming the norm.. at this stage of the game there are many who are "Ok" with it on an intellectual level, but not on an emotional one- BIG difference! The Ok IMBY will have to come slowly, and largely by 1 on 1 conversion where people get to know us as a person, a friend, neighbor or co-worker and then as a CD or Bigendered person or whatever you go by and it is up to each individual to know when the time is right to broach the subject where acceptance will come instead of rejection. Tough nut to crack, but we will get there in time.

I traded in my Idealism for a pair of heals and a cute skirt.

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Originally Posted by (Sara)

So, you wear Panties - you want a medal? So, you wear a dress - big whop, wonna fight about it? Stop thinking you are special, it doesn't help, we are not special! We are normal people, like everyone else! If we treat it as some horrible secret, and hating ourselves for it, then dam no wonder people think crossdressing is bad. If you know it your heart you want to dress, do it - and don't hide it. Being in plain sight is a relief, being honest with people you care about is as cathartic as dressing. And you start to genuinely ask yourself why you do it, and that question that has haunted you while in the closet suddenly answers itself. If you can't accept yourself, maybe your friends will and then you do too.

You are free and you are not stranger than the next guy, you aren't the only one in the world. Break out of your chains and live your life, we don't need to take ourselves so seriously!

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WOW...I LOVE this !!!! ESPECIALLY the last line !Good for you...and on a weird note can you believe I do not own ANY "panties" LOL....just gaff thongs to hide the boys!!!!

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Originally Posted by (Sara)

So, you wear Panties - you want a medal? So, you wear a dress - big whop, wonna fight about it? Stop thinking you are special, it doesn't help, we are not special! We are normal people, like everyone else!

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I hate to break it to you all - but you aren't "normal people." Sorry - if it was up to me, you would be, and so would I. But unfortunately, my vote doesn't count for much - there are too few TS people like me to ever have much clout. There are probably enough CDs to make gender variance accepted within "normal people", but most of y'all don't come out, so people continue to stereotype CDs.

You'll have to take my word for this. I'm out, and I accept myself. Sure, I'm TS - but I can tell you that "the normal people's" overall lack of acceptance is unfortunately quite real.

If enough of you came out though, it would change the world, at least a little bit.

Sara, I have to agree with a lot of what you said. However, each one of us has to decide what is right for themselves. What do I have to loose? My job for sure and a lot of friends that I have from that 20+ year career. Some would not care and would still be the same friend they were before, others, not so much. I also have children, two teenagers still at home and I see no need to put them through the torment others finding out about me would most certainly cause them (teenagers can be very cruel). While my beautiful bride knows all about Stephanie and is very accepting of that part of me, and I am sure the kids would be okay with it, I am not sure how the rest of the family would react and really do not see the need in finding out.

I've had a hard time with these thoughts rolling around in my head lately. I've been trying to accept myself as a CD. After all I've only been doing it for 2/3rds of my life and even before that I had urges. This thing is a really big part of me but I've been hiding it so long that I don't know how to stop fighting it. I don't even know how to begin to ask for acceptance for the people who probably already suspect me. You can't imagine how terrified I would be to be seen by my macho big brother or my father in drag.

Sara - I like your thoughts and agree. Very well written. It's sad for all of us that so many of us cannot bare to do what you talk about. The closer I get to what you describe, the happier I become.

If a family member outed themselves to me, I'd be cool with it, but that's who I'd see from then on - a crossdresser. (This has happened with how I see my H.) So if you're okay with this defining you, great. If it's only a small part of you, telling the world might leave you more boxed in than when you were in the closet.

Just a thought.

For my situation, I would likely lose contact with my parents and some of my siblings. This is not me guessing, I grew up in a very strict and close minded religion, when I left and chose a non-denominational church, I was shunned for a long time. I have worked hard to build up those relationships again, why is a different story. I would also likely lose my job. The good thing for me is I don't have a desire to come out. I am having a ton of fun with my wife behind closed shades and doors. When I was just out of high school I would go out with some girl friends to a club that was friendly, but I really didn't enjoy it that much. I commend anyone who has the desire to come out and has the courage to be honest with those around them, but that's not who I am, at least for now.

Wow what a tough issue.

I can certainly understand that if you have an established life with a wife and kids, work for someone else etc. and you are comfortable and happy in your situation then you might not want to come out. And I can see how it's much more difficult in social circles of people over 40 or so. But for me, being 28 and a part of the "millennial" generation, I find that people of my age and younger are more accepting and they desire to be more of an authentic person with others rather than hiding who they are. I am in that group and just wish everyone knew exactly who I am. It's still hard as hell to come to terms with that and actually tell people, but I'm working on it.

I'm not ignorant and realize that people would say negative things behind my back. But the older I get, the less I care and the more I realize that I am the architect of my life. If people don't like me for being CD, that's fine. I'll just surround myself with people who do like that side of me or who just don't care. Id much rather live the life of being happy with myself and upsetting a few people than worrying what people think at the expense of my happiness in life.

But at the end of the day I think each person should chase what makes them happy. That could be closet cding and having a separate "normal" life and a sense of "security" or coming out and being free to be who you are - it's all about your own happiness.

I believe the original question is self centered, unintentionally perhaps, but it excludes the effect on others.

Regardless whether or not a spouse/SO/girlfriend knows, and regardless whether she is accepting, coming out as a crossdresser will have an effect on her life. It will affect her family relations, it will affect her friendships, her place of work, church, volunteering, etc. She will be put in the position of explaining and defending something that probably does not give her any pleasure in the first place.

Children, particularly school aged children will feel the effect of their dad's outing. School aged children are subject to intense peer pressure and lack a grownups ability to deal with it. Children from unusual families face even more pressure. They will have additional difficulty making friends. The parents of their existing friends may disallow the friendship to continue. The children will be shunned or worse. They will face the real possibility of being assaulted.

It's not just about "me".

Best wishes
MsVal

without taking this totally off topic, I disagree with MissVal. I think it is more self centered to hide it. By coming out you allow the other person to use their own minds. As far as children, we as a society should be teaching acceptance of others. I understand what is being said here but a parent should be teaching the children that not everyone is like everyone else. That does not make someone better and it certainly does no9t make someone worse. I know that children are taught by society, but parents should be guiding them

I will respectfully disagree with Lorileah by agreeing.

That is, I agree that keeping crossdressing, or any controversial proclivity to oneself is, almost by definition self centered. It is the embodiment of a self interest. I believe that you are absolutely correct.

The original post questioned why crossdressers keep it secret, often to their own detriment, when disclosing it would bring needed, personal relief. To that point, I also agree. The angst suffered by living a life based on a lie can be devastating. There are several reports on this forum alone where it drove some to consider suicide as an escape.

There are others though that could suffer from one's disclosure. Wives and children are often the most affected. Their welfare must be responsibly considered prior to "coming out". For some, crossdressing is an occasional but enjoyable pastime; something that can be done in the safety and security of one's "closet". They have no need or even desire to make a general disclosure. Others have a more immediate and more pressing, real need to crossdress. Some do so as they pass through on their way to full transition. Obviously, the needs of these groups and those of their loved ones differ greatly, but all needs should be considered in a responsible fashion.

So, while I agree in theory, I disagree in practice. I stand by my original assertion that the original topic was, probably unintentionally self centered. There are others who would be affected by one's disclosure. It's not just about the crossdresser's needs. It's not just about "me".

(I would make a general disclosure tomorrow were it not for the pain it would cause those that I love dearly.)

Best wises
MsVal

I accept myself, I have no doubts that I'll never stop wearing panties, but I've met my share of bigots. I remain skeptical about people's reactions, at least the people I know.

I'm not going to tell anyone what they should, or shouldn't do. I can inform, you, that being out to at least some people, can be very liberating.

Sara, you are right, in that it's not wrong, I think it's a lot less rare than most on here would believe. Being open about it? Yes, it can be better for everyone, but you live in the UK. These days, even more so than when I lived there, it's essentially a secular country. North America has a strong religious streak, even in areas you wouldn't think it. Along with that is a very "conservative" attitude. In such areas, being out leaves you at risk. To your job, your landlord, your HOA, your ability to walk the streets unmolested.

I am fortunate. My GF is entirely accepting, my friend and landlord also, I think the majority of co-workers and employers would say, "Oh, I wondered, cool skirt!" and life would go on. I could walk the streets, and get very little static. I'm talking about just wearing a skirt, sometimes with hosiery of some sort, tall boots for colder weather. It really isn't that simple for a lot of people.

Given the knowledge I have now, if I found myself in one of those places that was not so accepting, with friends who were more closed minded, I know the best course would be to just chuck it up and move somewhere better. Not an option for some, and very difficult if you can't actually experience the grass on the other side of the fence. "Can't really be that green, can it?"

Having been wearing panties for the last 14 years, why change now! However, in my line of work, my credibility would be shot if I were not able to keep how I dress to myself. While my SO has always known about my panties (what a risk to wear a bright red thongon a first 'date'!!!!!) she is vaguely uncomfortable and, being from a large family, I would not wish to embarrass her and jeopardise our relationship. Balance is essential and if, in exploring boundaries, I constantly remind myself to 'Make haste slowly' - especially in my new heels LOL!

A big part of the consideration for me is the reasons behind my dressing. Beginning in college, my level of interest has risen and fallen in inverse proportion to the willingness of my relationship partner to dress in the fashion that I find most appealing (dresses, heels and pantyhose) on a regular basis. When I've been in a relationships with very "girly" girls, I've found myself with zero interest in CD; when I've been single the interest returns, and when my partner shows little interest in wearing those sorts of things, it can almost dominate my life.

Simply put, it's a coping mechanism for other parts of my life. I don't feel it necessary to share with my parents, with my wife's extended family, my coworkers, etc.

That's not to say that I haven't gone out in public in full dress and taken some major risks of exposure. I've gotten many a makeover at the MAC counter in the busiest Macy's in the area. I've taken long lunch hours trying on dresses. I've met with women selling their wedding gowns on craigslist to try them on in hopes of purchase. I've even driven across the state fully dressed, stopping in a highway rest area and refueling my car.

But I've never entertained the idea of revealing my secret to anyone but my wife.

(Yes, she knows that I dress. No, she's not really accepting of it, and as you might understand, I'm not really ready to go into the full reasons why with her - but that's another conversation for another thread.)

MsVal,
I totally agree with you. I have been in the closet for years and my cross dressing is truly all about me and I intend to keep,it that way

I wear panties 24/7 and have been doing it for over 9 years now and my girl friend knows and she was the one that threw out all my male undies many years ago.