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http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh22-3/220.pdf
What an interesting study! Seems that alcoholic beverages provide a meaningful boost in feminization as they contain significant amounts of biologically active phytoestrogens (the key being "actve").
The detail is worth the read. I think it also raises an additional question: Given that so many transsexuals report drinking heavily (often described as a coping behavior), I wonder if there is a biological driver.
Well I have not drank alcohol in over 20 years not about to start again. When I did drink it was very excessive and out of control, part was to cope but I think mostly I just could not control my drinking and am very susceptible to addiction.
I don't drink, never have drunk much more than a drink or two a year. Just never did much for me.
Alcohol made me a mean sloppy drunk. It attributed to most of my troubles with the law when I was young. All it really ever did for me was give me a pot gut and one he!! of a headache the next day.
Maybe that explains the 2 ways I relax................... dressing or drinking.
Gee now you tell me. After I no longer have a need to drink, lol.
Agree with Arbon...been 23 years for me and many memories I cannot forget. Life is wonderful without it and I still love money in my pocket and remember where I was last night.
Fortuneta
I think my record for drinking is three very small sips of wine in one evening. Or perhaps it was a Creme De Menthe Parfait back in the days that restaurants still used real Creme De Menthe.
Ummmmmmm, beer.
Guess I can't use that an excuse for my behavior either.:sad: I still have beer left over from Christmas...
The best news here, quoting the abstract, is "...that phyto-estrogens in alcoholic beverage congeners exerted estrogenlike effects...[which] were observed even at moderate drinking levels."
:o Lallie
My experience is that before going on M2F HRT I was a heavy drinker. After being on the HRT I don't have nearly the craving to drink excessively, and as a result my health is much better.
Maybe I was craving the phyto-estrogens before and since I am getting estrogen via injection I no longer have that craving.
Johanna
It is my understanding the principal effect of alcohol on "feminizing" a biologic system (i.e. an animal) is due to the ethanol inhibition of steroidogenesis. In males this results in a reasonably marked drop in testosterone levels and thus a relative increase in endogenous Oestrogen. I think the reason this effect is possibly more marked in beer consumption is the higher relative calorie consumption in beer drinkers versus spirit drinkers for the same blood alcohol level. It is possible I guess that phytoestrogens may play a role but I believe it would be quite minor compared to the effect of the alcohol itself.
As stated by Adina, Phytoestrogens Probably plays very little in the feminizing.If this were true people who consume high amounts of soy products would show signs of feminization. I think the alcohol lowers inhibitions and lets the desire to dress come forth.
I don't think drinking excessively and HRT go well together.
Oh to have a REAL Creme De Menthe Parfait. We would always have one after a dinner out, delicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandra-leigh
I used to drink a lot on the weekends so I could forget everything I had been through during the week. Especially when I was single, I made some bad decisions while very drunk. Now I occasionally have some wine with dinner. I do not miss the days of hangovers and regret one bit.
Although I do believe there was some honesty in those bad decisions I made while drunk that I was repressing while sober.
Maybe the Lady Chablis was on to something.....
About a year and a half ago, my wife said, "Crossdressing or drinking but, not both!"
I currently have 14 pairs of shoes, 25 dresses, 12 skirts, 55 bras, 6 pairs of breastforms, 5 nightgowns, 3 wigs, 4 corsets, piles of makeup,................
I was a terrible drinker! Thank God I have been sober now for 12 years.
Suzanne
What I would like to see as a follow-on study. It would be interesting to see if consumption levels and alcoholism in the transsexual population correlate to relatively more active estrogen receptors.
Re the comments on phytoestrogens - while I agree that phytoestrogens' effects typically range from nil to insignificant, this is an instance where they are confirmed to be biologically active and where they have have a confirmed effect. There are several factors that could explain that, including that alcoholics get to the point where alcohol becomes their predominant "food" source.
A terrible drinker? My problem was because I was a GREAT drinker, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzanne F
That instantly reminded me of lyrics from a favorite song:
Quote:
On the morning that I mentioned, I passed with light intention,
Through a part of our dear country known for beauty and for style,
Being a place of noble thinkers, of scholars and great drinkers,
But above them all for splendor shone the Queen of all Argyll.
Never cared for the alcohol buzz. Put me to sleep. Now I will have a glass of wine or 1 beer but that's about it. The beer makes me feel masculine. There was also a study on this years ago. Said beer increases testosterone levels or something to that effect. I used to be a toker for several years. The pot buzz I liked. Now that did make me feel more femme strangely enough. Had to swear it off though, made me too paranoid.
Now I know why I enjoy a glass of white wine or two or a Bailys when I go out for an evening with friends.
Phytoestrogens are quite powerful means to feminization, however, normal amounts of E contained within various plants is insignificant to an adult male. To achieve a visible change in appearance, one must take highly concentrated dose of Phytoestrogen supplement. Concentrations within one 200mg soy isoflavones pill is several folds more potent then gallon of soy milk. Unfortunately drinking your self to womanhood isn't gonna work, however, could work to scare some macho drinkers to slow down their consumption.
this reply is a bit late ive only just joined but, excellent choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlaWestin
Excellent choice carla, Excellent choice :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlaWestin
First, the study didn't even attempt to measure testosterone or estrogen levels in males or females. Second, phytoestrogens are not terribly effective by themselves. Oral Estrogen even in prescription form is given in much higher levels than phytoestrogens, along with testosterone blockers such as Spironolactone. To get the maximum benefit from these medications many forms of "herbal estrogen" are to be avoided, along with starches and sugars.
I spent about 5 years trying to use booze and drugs to numb the pain of finding out that I was a bass, thinking that I could never transition. When I finally got sober, it was my sponsor who was willing to look at my desire to be a girl without telling me that I couldn't even THINK about it, let alone talk about it. Today, I have 33 years continuous clean and sober time. The LAST thing I would want to do is start drinking again.
Too many of us have struggled with substance abuse during that horrible time when we wanted to transition, didn't think we could, and couldn't talk to anyone about it. MUCH better to go see a doctor and get a prescription for REAL Estrogen in a form that won't trash your liver or cause severe mental health disorders when taken in high quantities.
Why so many take this thread as some kind of alcohol advocacy is lost on me. [edit - prob. the title ... so much for humor ...]
Debbie, you are completely missing the point of the study. Moreover, the study itself acknowledges the relatively weak binding of phytoestrogens to estrogen receptors vs. estradiol.
Go back and re-read the hypothesis to understand what this is about. Summarized (emphases mine):
So the intent was to look for secondary markers of estrogen (or, more specifically, estrogen-like) activity and effects, specifically by measuring (yes) LH, FSH, SHBG, Prolactin, HDL cholesterol, and in the animal study, uterus weight. All measurements were consistent with estrogenic exposure.Quote:
Case studies have shown that men with liver damage resulting from excessive alcohol consumption ... frequently show signs and symptoms of feminization ... These signs and symptoms are consistent with exposure to high levels of estrogen. ... the levels of the steroidal estrogens in cirrhotic, feminized men are similar to or only slightly elevated ...
... the hypothesis ... alcoholic beverages contain biologically active phytoestrogens as congeners. According to this hypothesis, two factors might contribute, at least in part, to the feminization observed in men with alcoholic cirrhosis: (1) prolonged exposure to the phytoestrogens contained in alcoholic beverage congeners and (2) the impaired ability of the alcohol-damaged liver to adequately metabolize and excrete many compounds, including phytoestrogens.
MY intent in surfacing this was to question a possible tie between widely-reported drinking issues among trans people and such effects, NOT to advocate drinking!
Also, this is a serious study. "The author is a professor at the Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation and an adjunct professor of biostatistics and epidemiology at the University of Oklahoma College of Public Health, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma."
"This work has been supported by National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism grants AA–06772 and AA–11184, the Office of Research on Women’s Health, and the Office of Research
on Minority Health."