Are photos of very passable crossdressers a good thing?

There are collections of photos that feature very passable crossdressers that can easily be found on the Internet. Most start in our community and some eventually find their way to the wider world through Facebook and other avenues. When they are well done, there can be admiration for those in the photos for the quality of their transformation, but you rarely, if ever, find any discussion of the reasons behind it. I usually end up being jealous and wishing I was shorter, younger and more feminine appearing. Most of us don't pass that well and if a collection of our photos was sent out I'd venture a guess that CDs would commend them on their bravery. From the rest of the viewers the first comments would be those questioning why in the world we would do that. Or from many people, they wouldn't ask and would just begin explaining it, right or wrong, from within their world views.

So I end up of being two minds over those very public photo collections of the passable crossdressers. On one hand I admire them and see that they expose crossdressing in a positive fashion to a wider world. On the other hand it makes me feel less acceptable outside my closed community since it focuses only on the physicality of the transformation and raises that bar well above my head. So like so many other things in our world it's something that sends a mixed message to many differenct communities. I don't know which side of the argument I'd come down on if I had to. What do you think?

I enjoy looking at the photos even though I have to admit that they do depress me. I also wish that I were shorter, younger and had a different frame including smaller hands and feet. Oh well---At least they motivate me give me something to work towards. Even though I know I will never be able to achieve what I see in the pictures. I work on improving what is in my control.

I think is a good thing but not to compare ourselves Usually photos don't show the whole picture you can cheat a bit with angles and photoshop. The important thing is that when you see yourself on a mirror you are satisfied with yourself

Keep in mind that many of the people presented as cross dressers are not. Some are actually gg's and other are obviously transitioning. Or have transitioned, possibly very early in life.

Other than that, also keep in mind that a photo is a mere moment in time. Personally I often take about 100 different shots and maybe I will like 1 or 2. Don't compare yourself to others, compare yourself to yourself. I see others that I am quite jealous of, but when I see where I start and where I can go, then I am happy.

I think it's downright "silly" to make "passability" judgements based on photos posted ANYWHERE on the internet.

First of all, how do you know they are not actually female?

Secondly, many here at this Forum admit to "liberal use" of Photoshop. I can assure you it's not simply confined to this site/Forum. MOST females on MOST mag covers are highly likely to be airbrushed.

Thirdly, no matter the quality and or size of the pic, two dimensional images on [likely for many???] a smartphone or tablet have little to do with a flesh and blood person up close enough to interact.

I think the best "attitude" for viewing pics of "CDers" is to consider all pics artwork.

UNTIL and UNLESS you meet them in the flesh.

Sarah,

I am like you, very much of two minds. I sometimes admire and inspired by those very successful and passable CD's. I remember there is a wide continuum in our community of time, income and transitioning. Other times I get depressed that I know the limits of my look and I can accomplish. At the end of the day, I dress for me both for personal fulfillment and expression of who I am. I stay within my comfort zone and don't get hung up on a passability test.

Some excellent points have been made already. Pictures on the internet are not reality for multiple reasons. They only show one angle under certain conditions from a single moment in time. Additionally, quite a few galleries of 'very passable' cross-dressers contain at least a few of the following: very young cross-dressers, 'cross-dressers' that went through HRT and/or FFS, cross-dressers with training in Photoshop and cross-dressers that are actually women. Case in point: we had a thread about a 'pretty CD' Tumblr feed a few months ago that contained pictures of a famous Hollywood actress (a 'GG' in case you're wondering).

Anyway, more to your point, I rather count my blessings than feel bad about other people being 'better' than me at something.

Too Passable? That reminds me of the lawyer who argued that his client was too pretty to go to prison, or the boy who killed some people while drunk driving but was too spolied by his too rich parents that he didn't know right from wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

...I admire them and see that they expose crossdressing in a positive fashion to a wider world.

---

But the more passable a CDer is, the less likely to be identified as a CDer but rather seen as a GG. I don't see how this helps less passable CDers gain acceptance for venturing out into the public.

More passability is surely a goal for many crossdressers, but it's not the only goal, and not a goal at all for some.

What you all need to understand about yourselves is that you are all beautiful, and the standards that would say you aren't so are just cruel and wrong.

Now you get an idea how a lot of GG's may feel when all the fashion magazines, movies and other types of media always show off only the best of the best. You worry too much!

After reading this thread I googled "passable crossdressers" and I must say, there are some pretty amazing pix out there...personally I'm not thrown by the fact that I'm not "the fairest one of all" but I do take comfort in the fact that nobody posts her out-takes!

Overall I tend to be comfortable and accepting of how I look. I also understand the nature of how fluid images can be from when they are initially recorded to their final version that is shared. I guess the real point of my post was how those collections of images move the public discussion of crossdressing away from understanding and accepting those of us who are not mirror images of cis-gendered fashion models to how much like women those in the photos appear. That ends up making one more stereotype for average crossdressers to deal with, along with the "not gay", "not transistioning", "not a serial killer", "not around for comic relief", etc. My frustration here is less about my ability to pass and more about the message it sends or reinforces in the general public.

I enjoy looking at pictures of those girls but realize we're all different and not all of us can look 100% passable. Also, most of those girls have a lot of help from clothes/body shapers/makeup/photos either taken at the perfect angle or photoshopped, etc, so a lot of times that is not what they'd look like in real life.

I also dress for myself and keep hoping I look better and make improvements each time I do it. I know I've made progress over time. Even if I don't ever become totally passable, I can always be happy that some can do that. Anyway, I'd like to keep trying!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllieSF

Now you get an idea how a lot of GG's may feel when all the fashion magazines, movies and other types of media always show off only the best of the best. You worry too much!

---

I totally agree with this.

Still, I've seen photos such as you're speaking about. I'm of two minds on it, also. The younger, slim, good looking guys always make the best looking girls. Oh, to be young again and know what we know now, huh? If you're a good looking guy you have a better chance of being and attractive CD. That is if your looks aren't good looking based on ruggedness in appearance. You need that softer type of good looking. You've seen a few in Hollywood who fit the bill. Yes, it is a little depressing at times: I wish I looked like that. I think that's human nature to feel that way.

You know, if all of us could just get the point where we're not trying to look like a GG, but rather a CD, and be good with that, things would be much better. After all, that's what we are. We're not genetic women. We're crossdressers, transsexuals, etc. It is what it is. I think if there is ever going to be some type of mass acceptance, then we're going to have to own up to who we are and not pretend to be something we're not, which are ciswomen. We're going to have to own the label for better or worse. There are good looking ciswomen and there are not so good looking ciswomen. It only stands to reason that that some CD presentations will be better than others. Now, how to get to that point where we're OK just being a CD?

seeing pictures of truely passable crossdressers really just makes me jealous more than anything, even though I have been told that i'm passable myself, and there have been a few times people have seen pictures of me dressed up and not been able to tell it was me. Hell, one of my best friends saw a pic of me dressed up with me sitting right there and he couldn't tell it was me... No matter what, i still don't think i'm passable, and i'm sure that's a problem a lot of crossdressers have, even if they can pass as a girl. No matter what people tell us, or who can or can't tell it's actually us, we just don't have the confidence to think we look like we could pass ourselves. It's harsh, but true. at least for me anyway.

I haven't posted pix in quite a while. When I would post, I would get PM's from people telling me how passable I am, and that I could go anywhere. I wish to emphatically state that I am NOT passable and never will be. I strive to be presentable when out and about. A pic on the internet is a small percentage of what shows for being presentable. One must take into account body language, poise, how one walks and stands, facial expression, gestures, voice, and confidence. I don't go to tranny bars when out. I go to straight venues, and have never had a problem in 15 years. I just go out and enjoy myself.

Also, I never compare myself to others either as a male or female. That can only give anyone problems.

Jodi

Once we post stuff on the Net, including pics, it is out of our hands Sarah. If I posted a pic, I really didn't care what was said about it or done with it.The only ones I ever heard about being posted in a different country was Karren's without her permission but I believe she was kind of flattered by it more than anything else. She can correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, I'd probably react the same way.:)

I've gotten to the point where I have said this is as good as it gets and dress to blend as best as possible then out the door I go. A pic is just a moment in time. I, like others, take a few hundred shots and then pick one or two to post. I don't post to fish for comments, I post to show others that getting out and about isn't that hard.

I remember back when I was stuck in the closet and envied those that posted outdoor pics of themselves. It encouraged me to try harder and get better at this. I still have a was to go on this journey, but I've passed the front door and don't look back... too much.

Renne......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desirae

I think if there is ever going to be some type of mass acceptance, then we're going to have to own up to who we are and not pretend to be something we're not, which are ciswomen. We're going to have to own the label for better or worse.

---

This is really insightful and I completely agree. If you're not TS, to the general public, passing yourself as a GG can be seen as deceitful. Owning who you are, that you're a CD and not a woman is, in my mind, far more admirable :)

It seems like a truly "passable" CD wouldn't raise any kind of awareness amongst the general population because the act of passing would, theoretically, render him or her undetectable.

I can't say that I begrudge any CD's that I consider prettier than myself. For one thing, you never know what went into the production of a photo. The Flying Spaghetti Monster knows that I certainly give mine a little lick of love or two before showing them to anyone. And the ones that I feel don't flatter me head straight to the recycle bin. So I know that my own photographic representation is certainly cultivated by hand.

Besides, comparison is a pretty pointless endeavor. I've got what I've got, and there's no sense in beating any part of me up against a wall for not having what someone else was given. All I can do is my best, take a little of what I can see that I can control from others, and be happy that some are blessed to do so well.

I don't see any reason not to strive to look like a natural woman. I do not do all that I do to look like a guy in a dress or whatever. I also do not see a problem of comparing ourselves to others, especially the better looking ones. Sometimes we can notice something that can actually help us improve our own looks and presentations. However, I see no reason to do that to a point where one starts feeling bad about themselves, frustrated with their own transformation abilities, or anything else that is upsetting. The vast majority of women have learned to do that, not let someone else's beauty upset them, and we should be able to do the same.

I think that for many of us, we should try our best and then accept our limitations. Even the natal ladies may have some limitations. Look your best and feel your best and you will project it IMO. For instance, I know I am totally beautiful, but in contrast to Sarah's reference, I just can't get a picture to agree.

There's this limerick that I read a long time ago which I remember because it's particularly relevent.

As a beauty I'm not a great star
There are others more handsome by far
But my face I don't mind it
Because I'm behind it
It the people in front whom I jar

So, while I could get all jealous about it, I can say that I'm 100% hormone free. I'm plenty old enough that there's no shame in looking my age. When I post a picture, it may be the best of 5 or 10 or 50. I suspect others may Photoshop, but just removing enough pixels to get down to the size required for posting is almost enough to make anyone look good.

In short, it encourages me to improve my look, but I have no problem dealing with it.

I think 97 percent of them should be banned because they look better than I ever did.:)

Over the years the art of presentation has improved out of sight.

Guys look better than girls a lot of the time.

If a girl spent as much time making herself up as some of these guys I am sure the girl would win hands down most of the time.

Many GGs must silently suffer that one, they have full access to female things but when they compare to the glossy magazines etc. they must think why did I bother ? At least we can go back to guy mode and and do boy things ! A GG of a CDer also has the problem that he may have a better figure dressed !
I guess our problem is we have media saturation !

Vanity, thy name is................................................ .....................crossdresser?

Monday morning reality check, folks! :cheer:

Who defines the 'passable' bar anyway....???

If 'passable' just means going unnoticed, then 'passable' = 'blending' :)

Going unnoticed (for me - doing my people/GG watching) means: being neither stunningly attractive enough nor awfully gopping enough to demand (or deter!) a second, more detailed appraisal... I believe the 'very passable', alleged CDers and Traps fall into the former category... I don't think it's a good or bad thing, quite honestly - who in the real world spends their time looking at these photos anyway...? :eek:

I have known GGs who would not be categorised as passing based on their visual presentation - I think they probably suffer the same stigma CDers would...

There's a curious contradiction running through some aspects of this thread amongst those who venture out in public... You want to 'pass', to 'blend' - but at the same time you really want to be noticed... I think that perspective is worthy of more discussion... :devil:

Katey x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Desirae

...

You know, if all of us could just get the point where we're not trying to look like a GG, but rather a CD, and be good with that, things would be much better. After all, that's what we are. We're not genetic women. We're crossdressers, transsexuals, etc. It is what it is. I think if there is ever going to be some type of mass acceptance, then we're going to have to own up to who we are and not pretend to be something we're not, which are ciswomen. We're going to have to own the label for better or worse. There are good looking ciswomen and there are not so good looking ciswomen. It only stands to reason that that some CD presentations will be better than others. Now, how to get to that point where we're OK just being a CD?

---

What does looking like a CD actually mean? Or "just" being a CD? First of all, disclaimers and stuff... everyone should dress the way they want to whatever extent they want. A dress and nothing more, with or without facial hair, make-up, flats or heels, altered voice or not. It's all good in the hood, as far as I'm concerned.

For me, when I dress and put on make-up, I do so because it makes me feel good.. and strive to be as pretty as I can be. For me, pretty means a pretty woman.. and especially *MY* idea of a pretty woman. However, I am what (I think) I am.. and that is a CD, which is nothing more or less than being anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

This is really insightful and I completely agree. If you're not TS, to the general public, passing yourself as a GG can be seen as deceitful. Owning who you are, that you're a CD and not a woman is, in my mind, far more admirable :)

---

I was quite lucky in the genes department and lucky with honest GG friends who have helped me shaped my feminine image... and I pass a lot of the time (not always) .. until I open my mouth, that is. What should I do.. since I'm not a TS? Wear a CD badge to make sure I'm not deceitful?

Again, don't get me wrong.. I think it takes a lot more courage going into the public knowing and realising that one isn't as passable. And I've stated in another thread I am proud to be seen with all sisters.

I just never realised that what I was doing was viewed in such a negative light or that I might be doing the CD community a disservice....:thinking:

Passable CDers are slightly less rare than unicorns but let's pretend for a minute that the world were as full of these passable CDers as the internet would have you believe. What business is it of anyone else's how that person chooses to present themselves? Is that sour grapes I smell?

I admire those that have the physical features that give them the ability to "pass" and feel a touch of envy, but also feel it gives me something to strive for. I would, like many, love to be shorter, thinner, have less masculine features and all that would put me into that category. Alas, nature was not that kind to me, but that does not mean that I can't try to be my best with what I have.

ok, so I enjoy pics of men who have made the physical transition to an acceptable feminine presentation. Notice my careful choice of words.

The reason for my interest in these pics is the same as my interest in GG's who make that same successful presentation...education! I love learning about how ti make my presentation better, and who better to learn from than great-looking GG's and great-looking CD's?

Way back, when I started out on my dressing, I looked at a LOT of pics. Shortly after that, I got into photography, and took a LOT of pics. Then I looked at more pics, and took even more pics. (Photos are the best way to measure progress when you go back and look at your older ones)

I must admit, the photos of the 'passable' ones were the ones that drove me more intensely to improve my appearance and photography. And over enough time, I started to figure out how to get pics that I was happy enough with to share online. (Which actually took years before I was comfortable sharing ANYTHING online).

And of course, there were (and still are) photos that are MORE than just skilled makeup and photography, and those ones I would simply dismiss as 'better genetics' than I. And although I would be envious of their natural femininty, I wouldn't feel jealous of them, or angry that I wasn't born more girly.

While I have had many highly positive comments on my Flickr page, I don't let any of it go to my head. And still would not consider myself 'passable' by the strictest definition of the word. Within 10 feet or less, I don't believe that I could pass in public (photos are easier because you can pick the angle and the lighting).

However, if I can achieve an appearance that makes me happy when I look in the mirror, then who cares about 'passing' ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BARBARA_MELENDEZ

I think is a good thing but not to compare ourselves Usually photos don't show the whole picture you can cheat a bit with angles and photoshop. The important thing is that when you see yourself on a mirror you are satisfied with yourself

---

I quote Barbara because she was the first to post this sentiment, but there have been several others.

This is exactly how I feel. Whether we're CD, GG, GM, TS, or whatever there will always be people who we think are prettier than us. Well, unless we're weighed down by unimaginable amounts of hubris. Regardless of how real the photos are, it doesn't matter. The important thing is to love yourself for who you are. And if you're not satisfied with something you have to decide if you can change it and if you want to. If so, do it. If not, learn to love it.

It ain't easy. It's also the only way to truly accept you for you.

I'm probably a bit biased because I feel like I can pass at times (especially if my fake OKCupid account is the judge), but I like looking at such pictures. It's inspiring to me.

In a lot of ways, cross dressing is a work of art, and every artist compares him/herself to the greats.

Aside from passability being totally subjective, there is all sorts of variance amongst all people. The 5"8, size 10 girl with doll features who we might all agree is 'passable' might well have enormous feet and hands. She might even have never considered herself passable. The 6"4 size 20 girl may not be considered traditionally passable, but she might a perfect 7 pump. She might even consider herself passable, maybe even beautiful, I'm not going to tell her she's wrong. I'll look at her strength of conviction and applaud. I think it's so easy to look at others and feel sad, but you know, some are born lucky, some find their own luck, but I think it's important to acknowledge that our community is as varied as every other, warts and all. If I'm honest I'm so guilty of the green eyed monster, and I worry endlessly about passability, it's one of my greatest failings, but I try not to fall victim of the grass is greener. Sometimes, just sometimes, the grass is painted green, and the flowers are fake.

X Flic X

I vacillate between being inspired ("Wow! It is possible; maybe I could do that?") and depressed ("Gah, no *** way could I ever achieve that.")

Unfortunately, the depressed reaction seems to happen more often.

I think that a lot of the pictures showing 'passable' crossdressers are probably very carefully posed to reveal only the parts that are presentable; if you saw the whole person, perhaps not exactly so passable after all. And I also think that taking those pictures, as well as posting them on the net, is more of a way for someone to reinforce to themselves of how pretty and feminine they look, and only secondly to show themselves to everyone else. JMHO, of course because this reflects why I dress the way I do.

So the bottom line is that we are jealous of men who can actually reasonably resemble actual women so we don't like them and we all feel collectively better by pointing out there flaws and deliberating about their credibility?

Emi... I'm shocked... :eek:

Are you suggesting that our emulation of all things femme perhaps extends beyond the exterior appearance and runs deeper and even more successfully to certain... errrr... stereotypical female behaviour....? :devil:

Well... let me hold your coat and handbag, dear... and remember ladies, no gouging or biting but hair pulling and scratching is OK.... ;)

Katey x

The TG individuals in those photos aren't "passable." They are incredible, in the same way that supermodels look incredible in their photos. Neither the TG people nor the supermodels wake up looking like that. What you see is the result of lucky genetics, the surgeon's and pharmaceutical arts, the makeup artist's expertise, the photographer's eye, and the photoshop artist's touch.

99% of us don't look so good, just as 99% of GGs don't look that good. Passing isn't a matter of how gorgeous you look but how well you "fit into" the skin that you have. That is a matter of observation, practice, and experience, not purely appearance.

I don't see any problem here. One might ask the same of pictures of attractive men and women, different contexts perhaps, but same concept. We all can't be pretty, handsome, young or buff, but that can't be held against those who are, nor should we be so fragile in our self image that we find the images of attractive others to be disheartening.

I feel some envy looking at beautiful TVs, sure. Probably similar to what GGs feel looking at Vogue. But the incredible enjoyment of CDing is not just based on how passable I might look. Just the feeling of the dresses, heels, makeup, etc....and a little time to escape maleness is over the top happiness.

Hi Sarah.

Pictures . . . hmmm . . . let me ponder this . . . thinking, thinking :thinking:. Let's face the facts of pictures because we all do it (and if anyone says they don't . . . I'll call BS on that) . . . for every one shot we put on this site we most likely take ten of the same shots, lighting, make-up, angle etc. Nobody wants to put their worst foot forward. So it is likely these pictures of truly stunning TG/CD/TS are the best of the bunch. However, I would hazard a bet that should you meet these same "pretty gals" up close and personal in real life . . . they guy would shine through (baring no surgical intervention).

So I would not get hung up on having the bar raised by these "pretty CDers" as we all have our own strengths and weakness when it comes to presenting. If your intent is to go out and enjoy yourself and you are going to compare yourself to the "pretty ones" you may never get out or if you are you will always feel self-conscious. I am not what you would call a "great looking guy" and I make and even "less attractive gal" but in the end I am who I am. While my physical proportions allow be to blend, I never survive first contact and people guess right away I am a CDer. All you can do is own the moment and let others think what they need to think. :)

Hugs

Isha

When I look at those pictures and videos I do get a pang of jealousy. In part because I couldn't do that now but also in part because when I was young I could have done something similar. In fact I would readily pass back in my twenties and beyond. I have a picture somewhere of me in fancy dress and I look like a woman without attempting to do so. But not anymore.

However it is one thing to look passable on video and quite another to look passable in reality. I was an extra on a movie called 'Breakfast on Pluto'. Essentially it's a story of a CD/TS and her various surreal adventures as befits a Neil Jordan movie. Sadly I was not crossdressed although I did wear a ridiculous high heeled pair of men's boots as it was set in the seventies. Check out the youtube videos. Cillian Murphy the star looks fantastic as indeed he did on set too. With professional make up and wardrobe he looked nothing less than fabulous.

But he would never pass as a woman for long. He's not a tall guy, the same height as me but much bulkier with bigger hands and feet. Away from the set he looked like a man in drag. You can hardly see that in the movie but in the cold light of day it was obvious.

So I won't be too jealous of those fabulous creatures. Those of us who truly pass are really quite rare.

Exactly, Allie. Society assigns too much worth to the physical appearance of women and men. I can get our family photo collection out and progress through the years. I was truly a very desirable looking guy in my 20's. My wife was a real cutie. I benefited from being 6 foot 1 and 175 pounds with a lean athletic build courtesy of the military. My wife benefited in the same way. I'm sure I got a job or two over another qualified man who was short and out of shape. That's society.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AllieSF

Now you get an idea how a lot of GG's may feel when all the fashion magazines, movies and other types of media always show off only the best of the best. You worry too much!

---

Yep, I go to those websites and review the pictures of those drop dead gorgeous women. At my age I don't envy them. I don't make comparisons. When I am en femme I know I will never pass. But, I do my best with what I have. In the real world many of those "passable" cross dressers will look totally different when the makeup is chipped off their faces.

I feel this kind of sends mixed messages. I go to the photo forum and I see comments about how some women look 100% passable and I've been told myself that I am 100% passable - but then this thread I see people down playing those who are passable as "just good angles, they probably don't pass in public" or what have you. The truth of the matter is life isn't fair - genetics aren't fair. There's parts about you that you can change, parts you cannot change. It was because of the "incredibly passable" individuals that I decided to do what I can to be a healthier individual that drove me to where I am today, but at the same time it helped me to accept those parts I cannot change. I hate to think that I got to where I am by pure luck. Some of us (cis women especially) work really hard to make the changes needed in life to get there.

I don't think incredibly passable cross dressers are a bad thing. What I do find bad is to think that how genetically born men will go to great lengths to look like something that not even ciswomen can typically obtain. This happens on the cd'er and transgender side of the spectrum and doesn't do any favors for women in general. My wife has thin lips, hairier arms than me, ungroomed eye brows and I find her to be gorgeous. Yes, I groom myself to look better and there's nothing wrong with that. Improving your look is always a plus, but I understand there's a limit and a point at which it's simply harmful to one's self esteem.

tl dr; People are prettier than you and that's just how life is. Work with what you got and improve on what you can.

I view the picture, as a the possibility of what I can become.

A note on passing. There is a girl on this MB who regularly posts pix that get rave reviews on passability and her overall beauty. I have known this girl personally for many years and have been out with her. In her pix, she looks fantastic. She also looks great in person.

When she takes her first step in public, she shouts "man in a dress". She walks like a truckdriver in heels and, if not prompted to stand up straight, will stand slumped forward like a gorilla.

When we are out and about, there are just too many tells to even dream about passing as a girl.

Jodi

I think it's nice to look at pictures of attractive women whether they are or not.