Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Leigh started a thread about tough decisions, and Tink made the response below.

I didn't want to hijack the thread, so I started my own.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

But that's the problem - most wives never meet the 'whole person' until many years later. If they had, they might have made the decision not to continue the relationship and spared everyone this heartache. Read the thread in Loved Ones asking GGs if they'd have married their H if they'd known all the facts about his crossdressing. Most, including myself, said no.

So are we wives really selfish? Or did we just never get the opportunity to choose the spouse and life we really wanted? That's an incredibly confronting thing to realise after many years of marriage. I don't know much about Leigh's situation, but if she came out to her wife after many years, then her wife's identity must be shattered. As now is Leigh's, by permanently purging this side of herself.

There are no winners here :( But, as Sara Jessica pointed out, full honesty at the very start of a relationship usually prevents this situation.

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Well I have a counterpoint to that. Maybe women don't fully disclose issues to their future husbands. Below, you can see real examples from my 36 year marriage. Some of these were only disclosed to me within the last few years. Several years after my wife discovered my crossdressing.

I understand where you're coming from, but I look at the other side of the coin. Why is it the CD that has to come clean before marriage? Why not the wife also.

Should my wife have told me that she wasn't really excited about having sex before we got married.

Should she have told me that the reason that she wasn't all that excited about sex because of some incidents that took place when she was a child? She probably thought she got over it, but maybe she just convinced herself that it wouldn't affect her as an adult.

That would be about the same as me convinving myself that CDing was just a fetish and would go away once I was married.

Before we were even married 2 years, my wife was diagnosed with MS, and we've been making accommodations to live with MS for the last 34 years. Yes, I understand that MS is a sickness, but I believe that her MS has been a much more negative aspect of our marriage than my CDing.

What's the expression. "As goes the goose, so goes the gander."

I don't see how anyone's CDing can be compared to an illness or a traumatizing experience as a child. Having Gender dysphoria and being a TS is one thing, just wanting to wear the clothes holds no merit when someones life or well being is in danger.

If you found out that your wife was... Lets say into furries and didn't tell you, then there's a comparison but your reasons are not valid. And as someone with a Mom that has MS, I find your comment repulsive.

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Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi

...Before we were even married 2 years, my wife was diagnosed with MS, and we've been making accommodations to live with MS for the last 34 years. Yes, I understand that MS is a sickness, but I believe that her MS has been a much more negative aspect of our marriage than my CDing....

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Wow. Selfish beyond description. Get some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi

Well I have a counterpoint to that. Maybe women don't fully disclose issues to their future husbands.

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it's not a maybe, it is a fact and the results are the same. Not revealing things early, no matter what it is, violates trust, no matter what sex you are. I don't see as how this is pertinent to crossdressing though. Are you saying since women keep secrets it is OK for the men? Two wrongs...

I think you are rationalizing why you kept it secret. You want someone to tell you :Hey, it's OK she did it too." It isn't OK. It is selfish and mean and shows a lack of trust in your spouse

Well this is certainly a very macho kind of argument now isn't? Those women! How dare they be as deceitful as us men?

Seriously, Lorileah hits it right on the head: anything hidden from your partner, whether you are the man or the woman or whether you are a cross-dresser or not, will cause damage to the relationship. No one has ever said that cross-dressers are the only ones who hide things when they get married. We are all pretty much cross-dressers around here and the name of the site is Crossdressers.com so it stands to reason that, around here, you see more cases of cross-dressers who have been hiding their cross-dressing instead of hearing about wives who have unpaid student loans or who had an abortion or who eat ice cream at midnight.

Also, just because one person kept a secret from you, that does not give you a free pass to do the same to them.

A relationship is a mutually-agreed-to partnership with the relationship being the most important consideration. It is not a competition of who is "better." If all you're doing is keeping score, you aren't in a relationship, you're just being abusive.

I made the mistake of not disclosing it in my first marriage and it became a mess. My second date with my now wife, I told her that I have been dressing since I was 11 in pantyhose and dresses only but had a burning desire to prefect it and discover more. She said, well, it's part of you and I love you, so let's go to Walmart and get you some make up. We did and WOW. I then bought my first pair of 4" pumps, more dresses, and a wig from Fredericks online and when I put it all on together...well, I'm preaching to the choir here, it was AWESOME! That was over 10 yrs ago. Niki has gone through the young immature stage to now a mature grown up woman thanks to my wife's love and support. The thing about me is that I do not change who I am.. I don;t change my voice, attitude, etc. My fem mannerisms and submissive attitude come naturally and are just amplified when I'm totally dressed. The moral to the story, don't hide it from your life partner. You wouldn't want them hiding anything from you. :)

Steffi - I think it's very honest and open of you to try to say what you have said here and with examples from your own relationship... It has to be hard to talk about that however anonymous we may be here... :hugs:

I get what you're trying to communicate here... that in some relationships that are less than perfect (my guess the majority are of that nature) trust, and the withholding of intimate details (whether they who were withholding thought it was irrelevant or not) can be from both parties. And I think you're right about this however unpalatable that may appear to some.

Of course, our big issue is that CDers are withholding something that is so dreadfully stigmatised by 'normal' society, that in revealing this part of us we risk the loss of relationships with relatives and friends, work colleagues and possibly a career impact... and therein lies the significant difference between a benign disclosure, and a socially catastrophic one... So it's difficult to find these disclosures being held equally...

I also understand the point you have tried to make about your wife's illness (and you both have my sympathy for that) - I can imagine some of the sacrifices that you have had to make during those 34 years and I can respect your commitment, honour and love for someone in being with them for that length of time and through that awfully unpredictable illness. I can see that you would have to have shown a lot of selflessness over that period, rather than the opposite. You wouldn't have anticipated the constraints on your life and lifestyle that a major illness would cause when you were first married - nor does anyone really plan for the worst... and until you've had to face that type of impact in life you really can't appreciate what it's like to live with loss in that way... :bighug:

I can see that there is a counterpoint - but it will seem morally incorrect to a lot of folk however much their own relationships have also encompassed the same type of misdirections and partial truths, possibly some yet undisclosed... Everyone's situation is different, and everyone has a right to face those situations and choices in the way that they feel comfortable with...

A husband is unlikely to want to divorce his wife because she admits after marriage it's impossible for her to achieve an orgasm 'normally' (and not unlike about a third of all females, I believe) - but the same is not true of the wife's perspective of a husband in a dress, wig and makeup, is it?

And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

Cd's should be honest up front to avoid any problems down the road and if your wife had sex issues she should have brought that up as well.

Hi Steffi . . . thought provoking post. However before I respond with my thoughts I will say I understand where you are coming from as there is a sentiment creeping in from time to time that we "TG/CD" are not worthy husbands, fathers, brothers, men because we have something we cannot control anymore than I can control the urge to breath. Some will say "it is just dressing up" and yet the recidivism of dressing after stopping for any CDer is extremely high. So I do get it and I understand your commitment to your wife with her MS but IMHO it was probably not the best comparative example to use but I do not think you meant it the way some have taken it . . . enough said on that.

Full disclosure an interesting topic. I am one who did not disclose to my wife until 24 years into our marriage. Now some here will wag their fingers, the "liar, liar pants on fire" crowd and tell me I am so fortunate my wife did not kick me to the curb when I told her. Now that is quite the assumption for anyone to make without knowing the whole story. Yet assumptions get made by so many here without knowing the details. To be honest I did not know . . . oh I had an inkling many years ago but I got busy with my life, my job and according to my therapist, supressed it as it did not sync with my manly man occupation. It crept in as more a sexual release and I am not talking about full dressing but the use of items for . . . well no need for details as I am sure you can guess. When it did come crashing down on my head 32 years later I had nowhere emotionally to go and so I let her know. So yes no full disclosure prior to marriage but what would I have disclosed . . . "Sweetie, from time to time, not sure why but, I like to put on a pair of panties and sexually pleasure myself" What is to be gained from that disclosure. What I did in the privacy of the bathroom was my business, I was still there for my wife in all ways a husband should be.

Don't get me wrong if you have a huge emotional attachment to CDing and you cannot get along without dressing to the point where you need to express yourself or become an emotional wreck then yes . . . you should tell sooner than later if for anything but yours and your SO's emotional well being. Hiding something which is so important can creep into your relationship in other negative ways (moody, depressed, anger, hostile) if you are there then talking is probably a good idea. However, be kind with your "finger wagging" folks, as some here have various reasons why they cannot or do not want to tell or, they can manage both sides and still be a great husband, dad, man. That is their private business and "nobody" has the right to judge anyone here . . . last time I looked this was a support forum not a judgemental forum. Yes, by all means give them options ("have you thought about disclosing to your wife" "you sound emotionally distraught over having to hide, perhaps talking to your SO is a good way forward" "Have you looked at it from your wife's perspective?") but please save the "holier than thou" (bad boy, selfish boy, unworthy of trust boy) rhetoric as it adds nothing and only serves to put someone in an even more emotionally distraught position. For those who say "Well if you post here, you need to have a thick skin and I am a hard nose tell it like it is gal" . . . here is a bit of advice . . . you can still tell it like it is in a manner that resonates polite, supporting, nurturing (all good human traits and dare I say ones many who do post rude comments claim as their own). There is no need to be smarmy, rude and downright nasty ... let he/she who has not sinned cast the first stone

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Originally Posted by Katey888

...And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

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Could not have said it any better Katey.

Hugs

Isha

I told my wife the first year we were dating, We married 2 years later. In the early days and a year into our marriage she made a real effort. Then we invited a couple over to our apartment with the husbands dressed. He was very tall and could easily be read. When they rang the bell and my wife opened the door she practically yanked him out of his heels as she pulled him into the apartment to get him out of the hallway. She was on pins and needles all evening and could not wait for the evening to end as we played Scrabble. Up to that time she had only seen me dressed and I'm short and could be convincing although I could not pass in those days. She never got over that experience and has never participated since then and that was 1972. So the point is that I did tell her before we married, she really did try to be a part of my CD life before and after we married and finally realized she could not do it. No one could predict that. She loved me enough to try and loves me enough to stay with me for the next 42 years. The pay off is great children and grandchildren and we are looking forward to a nice retirement soon. Do I wish Stephanie could be a part of her life. Of course but just like her, I have to sacrifice some things to make the marriage work. The argument that she knew about my CDing before we married also works for her saying she would try to deal with it as best as she can. This is her best and I love her for the effort.

Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Because that is usually the biggest/most important secret in the relationship. She usually can't top it. Usually.

Isha, Yo hit a home run! Well said. We are all in different situations, with differing personalities and quirks, dealing with different types, with quirks. I struggle with extremely judgmental, cruel older brothers, who are not "live and let live", and mu father, too. I have not been in a romantic relationship, since 1987. I have told a number of women friends my secret, and only one seemed tolerant, but the rest totally judged me negatively. I still believe it is best to disclose, if i think the GG is a possible mate. Live and let live , as long as something is not violent, or harmful to others.

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Originally Posted by Katey888

...And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

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Katey, the OP has nothing to do with not being open about cross dressing. It is entirely about this posters unobjective view that cross dressing equates to medical problems.

Candice, my sister in law had MS for the last 10 years of her life, and eventually died of cancer. She was one of the most wonderful people I have ever met, and she was trying to take care of all her friends even to the day she passed away. (She left parting gifts for her best female friends...) And my brother is a wonderful person and he willingly and cheerfully changed his life for the past 10 years to take care of her and spend as much time with her as possible. But it is impossible to deny that her illness put stress on their marriage. If he had known in advance what the last 10 years were going to be, would he have married her anyway? I think so, but would it have factored into his decision? I think so.

I don't think Steffi was saying that coming down with MS is in the same category as voluntarily hiding a secret that has the potential to destroy a relationship, as if her wife had been hiding MS from her. (I hope that's not what she is saying).

But learning that your spouse has MS IS the sudden reveal of a devastating secret (the universe's secret, not the wife's secret) that always has a major impact on the life of both spouses. Some spouses in that situation react heroically (my brother and sister in law are perfect examples). Others might react in a more devastating manner - a spouse leaving the marriage because that spouse couldn't deal with the impact on his/her life and expected future.

I don't think including MS as an example matches the title of the thread "Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage? " unless Steffi's wife hid her MS from Steffi. I think it belongs in a more general discussion of the right and wrong ways to respond to life-changing revelations.

Deedee

There is that first issue, fear, then... umm, fear, then the idea that we are wierd and there is something wrong with us, and if we can get past that (within ourselves), then there is the idea or notion that we will surely stop once we are in a committed loving relationship. Once that doesn't work out as planned there is ummm... fear again. Then we disclose. Maybe weeks, months, or many many years later. Yet...
Even if CDing is a fundamental part of us and we cannot possibly stop without serious (life threatening) side effects, it still is not a big enough thing to erase however many years of memories and children we have had during the "normal" course of our relationships. My SO and I have been through devistating moments that Bergman himself couldn't have dreamed up, and highs that will make us both cry in joy for the rest of our lives when we think of them... We also worship the ground our children walk on... Surely an SO would consider all of those things before truly believing they would have never gotten into a relationship in the first place knowing we CDed? Some traits that I have are directly related to my being genderfluid. (If not all are interwoven actually). My SO married me because of my traits. If I were never anything other then cisgendered I would not be the same person I am or ever was. The very notion of losing all of what I have shared and have with my SO because she may have thought I was not worthy some near 20 years ago? Call it what you will, but that is WAY more then I could even imagine gambling over. (And yet I still know in my heart that I was not in an understanding enough place about who or what I was at the time to disclose about my CDing anyhow!!)

We aren't the only ones blamed for not disclosing stuff before a marriage. The problem is that CDing is something most women wouldn't choose to deal with in a partner. It's a little unfair to blame us for not wanting to disclose this, as society does not approve, and it makes finding a partner really hard, and it can be dangerous, too. (Betty Crow, from My Husband Betty was blackmailed by a former GF to whom she revealed her CDing secret.)

You make yourself really vulnerable to someone you don't fully trust yet. And by the time you do trust them, many of us are so invested in the relationship that we feel we can't risk losing it by revealing the truth. Because a lot of women will indeed reject you for being a CD. Most women hate this. And of course this assumes that you even understand this thing inside you well enough to even talk about it. It's not like we get any education on gender issues. It's very hard to tell a secret that, in your mind, amounts to "Hi! Date me! I'm a complete freak of nature!"

And yet, your best bet for actually having an accepting partner is to tell them up front. It's a difficult situation, made worse by a society that hates, fears, ridicules, and misunderstands you. If you disclose upfront, you risk embarrassment, and you'll have a much tougher search for a partner unless you are quite lucky. If you don't disclose it, your odds of having an unaccepting partner greatly increase - so it's easy to reach the conclusion that "it's all your fault."

The CDs on this forum who wag their fingers at you tend to be the lotto winners - the ones who were lucky enough to find an accepting relationship. The ones who got kicked to the curb like a sack of garbage tend to disappear after a while, as it's hard to face the judgment of others who tell you "well, your marriage must've sucked, and the CDing was just the last straw."

The truth is, even when a woman chooses to remain in the marriage with a CD, many of them find this to be a real trial. There are some really happy relationships between genetic women and CDs. There are. There are a whole bunch more that are, at best, a real struggle for both parties.

I think you have a point, Steffi.

Both parties in any romantic relationship hide lots of unpleasant things about themselves early in the relationship, and at least in my experience ... yeah you really don't get to know the person you're married to in full until a few years after, and even then.

I didn't find out about my wife's crippling mountain of debt until bill collectors started hassling the living hell out of me about a year and a half after we were married. I didn't find out my wife was bi-sexual (or at least bi-curious and willing to experiment) until about 4 years in, when I came home from work one night and there was sexy shenanigans with her best friend going on in my living room (actually in that case I'm not complaining ... that was a fun night LOL -- but it was definitely a shock). It wasn't until much later, after we'd had our children that her bi-polar tendencies came to light.

And in some of those cases it wasn't even about "hiding" things from one another, that's just how things unfolded. That's what you sign on for when you get married, especially if you get married young. People are not static objects. The nature of being human is to expand and change. That' why they talk about the "for better or for worse" ...

our thing is a little different though.
About the most harmless thing imaginable, wearing the "wrong" clothes in private, is widely considered to be an abomination in our society. it's insane, but them's the breaks at this point in history I guess.

I am in support of full disclosure before marriage. Yet even that may not be a solution as cross dressing, as well as other aspects of one's sexuality evolve. In my early twenties I did not feel that I was a cross dresser. I thought that I just had a fetish for female lingerie and that being able to buy my SO the prettiest lingerie would satisfy my urges. I was wrong about that as my need to dress, use makeup and look as feminine as possible just became stronger and stronger. So a confession at 22 would not be the same as a "confession" at 32.

I have known many men who entered marriage not understanding that they were homosexual. They may have had feelings and even some brief homosexual encounters but put that down to youthful indiscretion and sexual exploration and thought that marriage and a heterosexual life was what they desired. Five or ten years later they realised that the real truth about their sexuality and invariably the marriage failed. Many women have traveled the same emotional path.

As our cross dressing has s strong sexual drive it is not necessarily a constant and will evolve as our hormonal makeup changes. Given my experience I believe that a simple "confession" would be insufficient. It needs to be followed by education and exploration so that the entire issue can be understood and some understanding of how cross dressing can evolve and "morph". Sadly, few are brave enough to face that and I have always thought that a confession needs to be coupled with some excellent and professional counseling. How many potential partners are confident enough to follow this and perhaps, after all the counseling decide that despite strong affection for the prospective partner, that this is not a relationship that they should enter into?

There are lots of men that would decide not to marry once they found out their partner had MS. And there are men that ended marriages after their wife acquired MS. Then there are those that stay with their wife through sickness and health.

I think everyone has at least one secret that they won't tell anyone, ever. It's important to find out every aspect of a future husband or wife before tying the knot. In my case I had no idea that my wife was a crafty liar before getting hitched.

It is my jaundiced opinion that many (most?) couples would never get married if they really "knew" the person that they were getting ready to marry.

Somehow revealing yourself as a crafty liar doesn't seem like something anyone would do :)

My feelings (and you can be as selfish or altruistic as you like). 1) marriage is built on love and trust. If either one is missing, it is over. 2) You (and your potential spouse) have an obligation to reveal ANYTHING that may effect the marriage. This does not include past sexual adventures (as long as you aren't harboring a disease that can shorten you new love's life), exes, drinking binges in college. It does include anything your spouse may not wish to deal with on a forever basis. Here is the selfish part. Being selfish before you get deeply involved is just protection. We all have our lines in the sand. Some will not accept any sexual indiscretion, any borderline activity, any lifestyle out of the norm. This is OK, it is who you are (just don't try and force your quirks on others, they have the same right to be selfish) The selfish becomes intolerable after you decide to be together forever. Then your quirks and feelings on certain things should not interfere with your spouse. 3) The longer you keep a secret you KNOW OR SUSPECT your spouse may not approve of, you are undermining the cornerstone of the marriage; trust. It takes time to build trust but it takes seconds to destroy it. I believe this is the main issue, it is what you do it is assuming you know better than your spouse how they may react. It is not allowing the other person the chance to make a decision. They are adults, let them decide if they can live with whatever. I always use the example of "equity". You have little equity in a relationship at the beginning. So if for whatever reason you need to walk away, no big loss. Equity grows with time. After 5 years or 10 years , you have a lot invested in the relationship. You have spent age, you have spent adventures, you have spent the ability to find someone who is more attuned. You have a house, children, friends, memories, adventures you shared. Your spouse has a plan for the future where you will grow old and be together until death do you part. You chip away the trust, the foundation crumbles and your equity is gone. Everything you have invested (not just money but emotion) is gone. If you revel early, they are hurt for maybe a few days. If you reveal late, it hurts longer. It took me over a year to work it out. I still loved her but I was hurt she didn't trust me. I still am not 100% over it but I will go one, but I have to start building my own equity again.

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Originally Posted by carhill2mn

It is my jaundiced opinion that many (most?) couples would never get married if they really "knew" the person that they were getting ready to marry.

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Wow. This along with so many other comments here just stuns me. I must be living the Brady Bunch life. My parents too. I know EVERYTHING about my wife and she me (now that I came out). My withholding my CD nature was the ONE thing I didn't tell her or more specifically, let her see. We have seen each others best and worst. Prior to marriage and after.

I'm saddened that you a see a world like this. Maybe we just see too many disposable relationships on TV and tabloids. For some, marriage is thing you do as opposed to giving your life to another. I guess I am just a cup half-full kind of guy.

PaulaQ, that is very well said!

Deedee

I think the disclosure thing is an injustice to most CDrs. How many of us had a clear understanding of ourselves....beyond what we are characterized as being? As young adults we are motivated by all sorts of factors, just as any other human. Yes, most of us wanted sex, companionship and families...normal lives. Were we supposed to say, "I'm sorry but there is something about myself I don't understand and maybe it would be better if you jumped to some conclusion, and tell all your girlfriends while your at it."

About half of all marriages end in divorce. Perhaps as many as 1% involve CDing as a cause. Seems there may be other adverse factors that can affect relationships which are either undisclosed or unrecognized at the outset. Shame on CDrs for not being more forthcoming than the rest of humanity!

No need to attack the OP, some folks here need to chill sometimes. I think Steffi has brought up a valid question. Except I think her statement is way too absolute that this lack of premarital disclosure is the “only” one that results in a ‘blame the perp’ marital dysfunctional status.

However it does seem from posts on this forum that many wives have a really difficult time accepting a husband’s CD’ing disclosure and express that as a reason for the disintegration of the marriage. Why it is so difficult to accept by wives compared to most other things remains somewhat a mystery to me despite ongoing discussions regarding this on this site by many.

Often people have to deal with difficult situations that a spouse presents and sometimes these problems were present but not divulged before marriage. Steffi gives some valid examples and then adds an example of a difficult marriage stress that developed well after the marriage began. The point was that these other things are often accepted as part of life and worked on by both parties without a subsequent assignment of blame.

I think when a marriage really deteriorates that there is a human tendency for assignment of blame to thrown around by both parties. The fact remains that CD’ing by the husband (and not CD’ing by the wife which is accepted in lots of places) is an all too easy target for assignment of blame, not to mention public humiliation or even blackmail.

So I think a partial answer to Steffi’s question is just that blaming the CD’ing husband is an easy sell and not likely to be questioned by outside parties.

Stephanie

@presh GG - why'd you live your entire life lonely and alone - presumably your CD spouse isn't responsible for any childhood issues you had?

Some of us are really nice - but our wives no longer want us after they find out. That was certainly my experience. Four months after coming out - she wanted me gone. So I left, although pending divorce I still support her financially.

Her discomfort trumped my misery - at least that's how she feels about it. She wants me to suffer.

Wow . . . I agree with "Sometimes Stephanie" on this one. People really should chill. Yes the comparative between MS and CDing was probably not the way to go but then again people are assuming that the OP was doing this out of malice or spite . . . please read the OP has been with her SO for 32 years dealing with this tragic illness. If she was truly heinous as some have painted her, she would have left long ago. As well at no instance did she blame the wife. The OP was merely trying to point out that when it comes to CDing the CDer takes the brunt of "shame, shame" from many. However there are lots of things not disclosed prior to marriage which come up later in life which couples have to deal with. Some couples will work through it and some won't that is life folks and it is not all sunshine and lollipops.

When my wife married me, I did not disclose the true nature of my employment and when I started disappearing for weeks at a time she had no idea where I was or even if I would come back. There is lots I have not disclosed about some of the things I have done not because I don't think my wife would understand but because parts of my humanity have been robbed from me and I need to deal with that before I can share with her (and no I am not a serial killer before anyone decides to post that idea . . . I am in the military :)).

So please cut the OP some slack here as she was going for an alternative position albeit the messaging did not hit the mark. Sometimes we all post things which sound rational and then realize afterwards perhaps that was not the best approach . . . don't let your emotions cloud your good judgement. :)

Hugs

Isha

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Some of us are really nice - but our wives no longer want us after they find out. That was certainly my experience. Four months after coming out - she wanted me gone. So I left, although pending divorce I still support her financially.
Her discomfort trumped my misery - at least that's how she feels about it. She wants me to suffer.

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Too often when a GG wants out pf the marriage, it is because they think they can do better somehow. Not that it will actually happen but they think so.
The CD'ing thing is just an excuse for some wives to leave. If not for that, they would find some other reason.

As far as her wanting you to suffer - as time goes on, things get better. When I first divorced it pretty much sucked but then I realized - no one there to complain about stupid stuff.

There apparently was a post removed from this thread, but I just wanted to respond to the content of that post...

Because this is a support forum for crossdressers, and crossdressers who have had miserable experiences (of any kind) are often looking for support, many come here and tell their stories. So we read a lot of stories about crossdressers who have had their relationships destroyed when they belateded revealed this secret to an SO. But we DON'T see posts from women whose relationships were destroyed when they (the women) belateded revealed some secret to an SO. So there may be some people who get the feeling that women feel that they can keep any secrets they want in a relationship, and if by happenstance, a secret is revealed, then the woman feels that the guy is supposed to handle it gracefully and fully accept it and it should make no difference in the relationship, but the woman feels that any secret kept by the guy is betrayal.

But we only get a small part of any story in this forum. I think it's important not to generalize too much from what gets posted here. I especially think that it is important not to assume that what is said by any one person should be applied to everyone, or to assume that what someone puts in a post should be taken personally.

There are people of all genders who feel that it is OK for them to keep secrets in a relationship but a total betrayal of trust for the other partner to keep secrets. There are people of all genders who can gracefully handle the life-changing revelation of a secret by the other partner - and people of all genders who cannot. There are people here who may be in the middle of an awful situation and may say something that they wouldn't say at some other time. There are people here who may not be expert at putting their thoughts into a post, and so they write things that don't come out right. And there may be people here who misinterpret what someone else posts. Those last two - not saying what you think you are saying, and misunderstanding what someone else is saying - are very common in a medium where you can't hear the vocal inflections or see the face and body language of those you are communicating with.

My guess is that in most cases, most posters here don't intend to be offensive, and when they are accidentally offensive, probably are sorry it happened.

Deedee

Steffi, the fact that your wife had been diagnosed with such a devastating Disease as MS & (FORGOT?) to disclose this to you prior to Marriage is a MAJOR injustice to you and the 'Future' you had envisioned for your Life Together as 'ONE'.
I agree wholeheartedly that this often DEBILITATING Disease would have made ME think twice BEFORE I SAID, "I DO".

Sharing a life with a Spouse with MS is more STRESSFUL & devastating than sharing a life with a Faithful CD'er who is TRULY 'in Love' with his wife, even if she was NOT AWARE of his innocent Alternative Lifestyle (prior to 'I DO'), and not harming their Marriage in any manor.
Kisses, :kiss:,
Simone

comment #16 from Paula Q is well put .

I agree that its a good idea to disclose cross dressing early on , but what if you didn't know how to?

Thank you to those of you for defending the guys who could not tell their wives until later , the ones who kept a secret until maybe when it was too late .
circumstance forces action and it also forces inaction .
I like the point about "winning the lottery". In our culture I think that cross dressing is too often seen as such an awful taboo….. its easier for many folks to accept some one who is a heroin addict .

Any man who falls in love with a woman will want to keep her . Its important to be loved back too. It takes a long time for someone to know himself . What if you couldn't tell your wife in the beginning because you didn't understand what was in your own self?
And then , as your self identity evolved and as you understood it more you knew that it would hurt your marriage ? what to do then ?
Its not an easy choice to sacrifice one for the other.

The urge to cross dress is so strong despite the dangers .
It can cause huge problems in a relationship with a woman who wants a full masculine presenting male . does this mean that a cross dresser can't have a loving relationship or marriage with a woman ?
I hope not .
ugh .

I think that your 'expose ' of your beloved wife is cruel and unfair and terribly disloyal. telling stories out of school? Why not shout her personal life from the roof tops and take out and ad on the front page?. How crass You are comparing apples to oranges and are trying in a most deliberate but unconvincing way to justify your cross dressing and get the validation from us by unfairly comparing it to your wife's early life's' traumas which 'sir' is none of our business. You should be ashamed of what you wrote and if she read this I don't blame her for drastic consequences. Oh.. and I hope YOU never get MS or cancer, or Alzheimer or such.

Thanks to all who responded.

I was off having some girly time today, so this is my first opportunity to see all these posts and to respond to them.

So just to clarify, my wife wasn't diagnosed with MS until after we were married for 2 years. She was just as blindsided by the diagnosis as I was. So I didn't intend to implicate my wife in hiding the MS from me. Sometimes "stuff" happens and you just have to deal with it. My belief is that a diagnosis of MS falls under the category of "in sickness and in health". No harm, no foul. The only reason that I brought up MS was to demonstrate that there are things in marriage that may be more devastating than CDing. In retrospect, I should have left it out because it detracts significantly from my other points. These other points are:

1. My wife didn't enjoy sex.
2. She would probably never enjoy sex because of some frightening sexually-based events from her childhood.
3. She did not disclose this information to me before marriage.

So, my question to myself is, "Would I have broken off the relationship if I had known?" [Where have we heard that question before?] I think the answer is probably "No, I wouldn't have broken off the relationship." I wouls have believed that she would have changed for the better, "once I made an honest woman out of her." However, If I had known how she felt and was able to see how it would have changed our relationship, I might have broken off the relationship. [Where have we heard that before?]

So, I get back to my original point, aren't there things that a woman should disclose prior to marriage, or is it just the guy that's obligated to disclose, and is CDing the only thing that needs to be disclosed.

So, someone mentioned endebtedness. I made my wife disclose her endebtedness (mostly charge cards) prior to marriage, and we came to an agreement about how to handle her debts ( which meant that she had to pay them down before marriage.

What if a man expected to marry a virgin, and was deceived. There are still places today where that can get you killed. (For the record, I disagree with that, so don't be a hater. I'm just stating a fact.

Like Isha, for quite a long time, my crossdressing, (if you can really call it that, since it typically consisted of wearing a pair of panties) was just another method of self arousal, that didn't detract from what would consider "nornal" arousal. Without access t the Internet (in 1978) and with no one to talk to, I honestly thought it was something I would grow out of after marriage. But, it was the last stumbling block prior to popping the question.

I hope I've clarified the points I was trying to make, and I'd still like to hear your comments.

But please, let's just forget about the MS example, and discuss the other points.

And as for those who excoriated me on the MS, I respect your opinions and your right to have and post your opinions, but I'm not insulted, and have no intention of responding.

Well handled Steffi. I agree with you that both sides have an obligation to try to reveal pertinent facts about past and current issues, events or whatever which may affect one's decision. The interesting thing here is that there is so much defense of GG's here, to the point of ignoring that the SO has some obligations too. Unfortunately, posts like yours get sidetracked so easily when unnecessary extraneous information and poor analogies are included in the OP. In your case your wife's MS, which if some of the attackers here would have read clearly stated that it was discovered/diagnosed after you got married. There are members here that put the GG SO, usually someone else's, on such a high pedestal and the poor CDer trying to figure themselves out are thrown down in the gutter. They expect that we all immediately totally respect any GG who happens to participate here, when some of them have such a big chip on their shoulders and never hesitate to put in a stinger one line comment to someone's serious post, with no substantial input provided to the overall thread topic. We are supposed to respect that GG for her snide derogatory comment? I am afraid not. I respect all human beings and expect the same from males as well as females. If someone does something that lessens my respect, then they, not me, have to work to regain that trust and respect. If I am the one that loses the trust and respect from someone I like, then I have the work to do. The other problem here is that we have a lot of transgender's that finally came out to their SO's after years of hiding. It seems that many of those then become the newly born and redeemed evangelists condemning all those that are doing the same that the new evangelist did in the past. The feel no obligation nor compassion to cut the OP any slack. They are oh so quick to condemn and I almost never hear a, "Oh, thanks for the clarification. I might have been a little too harsh in my original response, please accept my apology." It would be nice to hear that here once in awhile in those situations. I like Deedee's post. It is very hard to always get the OP's original intent when maybe they did not write clearly about the point that they wanted to make. The aggressive ones here would rather attack instead of asking for a simple clarification of the intent of the OP. But then we all know how that is, it is easier and more fun to attack from a so called righteous position than to ask that clarifying question. Megan, I hope that Steffi's clarification helped you to better understand her questions now. I actually got it from her original post. Your rude admonitions were unnecessary.

Hi Allie . . . well said. I never ceases to amaze me how so many are free with a "smarmy and rude quip" after making assumptions or not taking time to read the OP and yet never come back with a "sorry" after clarity is brought. Alas . . . it would be a boring world if such god-like beings were not around to point out the flaws of us mere mortals.

Hugs

Isha

Steffi the point you make about your wife disclosing her sexual needs maybe put her in the same situation as many CDers, they thought it would come good when they got married. Women possibly have higher expectations of marriage than men, almost as if it comes with a bottle of cure all ! In most cases the men are blamed when it doesn't !
I can't speak from personal experience but dealing with your wife's illness can't have been easy, maybe you're just asking where do I fit into all this ? what about me and my needs ? You're only human and I can understand that feeling, I think with age we do think more like that. Then we live with the guilt of feeling selfish !!

Hi Steffi, In a perfect world we would be living in the garden of EDEN.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant

Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Because that is usually the biggest/most important secret in the relationship. She usually can't top it. Usually.

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Are you a relationship expert? How do you KNOW usually? I will tell you what I KNOW from experiences.

My first marriage? ENDED with the fact her whole family was part of a massive family sex ring. She also had a serious drug and drinking problem. Let's just say SWAT raided her house and arrested her brother, father, and mother for a total of SEVEN felony warrants. Yeah. I also WAITED ten years for her (both virgins) to find out she cheated 48 hours before our wedding night. I found out THE NIGHT we were together on our WEDDING NIGHT that I waited for....for ten years....and remained faithful to her. I found the strength to forgive....THAT. I think THAT was much worse than ANYTHING crossdressing related.

I've also found out many secrets in my current marriage, which I will not disclose since I promised her I wouldn't. They are MUCH more than just "I like to wear these clothes." As my wife says "I find it hard to deal with Jessica, but you put up with X and X and X without batting an eye. I know you love me so much, and that makes it so much easier for me to realize who cares if this is us. It is US, not them."

Bottom line, everyone has baggage. EVERYONE. Guys and girls. As I've said in another thread, there are people that have sex with knives with a cutting obsession/fetish. Those who have a fetish for filth, sex with food, threesomes, and even people obsessed with fire play. There are SO many things out there, and these are all COMMON fetishes found in couples. There are couples that make THAT stuff work, and enjoy life together.

I won't point fingers, but I think people who are asking "How can I deal with my husbands crossdressing problem" need to grow up. There are FAR much worse things that can happen in a marriage. Be happy you are both sharing love together, and you have someone who loves you so much, they share the most intimate secrets of their lives with you! Isn't that what we ALL are searching for? Isn't that what you will search for if you leave him? Another guy who shares his secrets with you? What you don't think about is what secrets await you THEN?

I can only say this from what I've personally witnessed, obviously, but I don't mind suggesting that I do sometimes think men are more willing (or able?) to accept our secrets and issues than we do of men. I have many a girlfriend who've tossed a marriage aside for things that seem so small and shallow. I also have friends who put up with far more than they should, but they're less common than the 'give up' kind. (This always makes me feel like a freak that I'm still here, to be honest :( ) Of course, as we see with the GGs here, there are also those willing to learn and accept. Just not as many as those who won't, as PaulaQ mentioned. The husbands, on the other hand, just seem to turn a blind eye to most things that happen in the relationship. Hearing both sides has always made me shake my head at how different men and women perceive things.

Why? I suspect men are more capable of compartmentalising issues like illness or sexuality or even gender, from the relationship. We women seem to entwine everything together so it's very hard to separate the issue (in this case, crossdressing) from everything else, even though you, and our relationship with you, is so much more than this one thing. This 'beast' that we create then affects every part of our lives, how we see you and ourselves and how we perceive others view us, and soon we've literally made a volcano out of a mole hole.

Since learning to compartmentalise more, I can honestly say I see my H the way I once did - as the man I married. It's very freeing not to mix everything together like I used to. It also helps that he's become very controlled and considerate about his dressing and I suspect many here with unhappy wives are perhaps not so honest about their own behaviour?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi

Before we were even married 2 years, my wife was diagnosed with MS

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I think this sentence is your problem, most people skim through posts and don't read them correctly, I read the whole thread before I decided to post and then read your first post again. I have to admit, I read this wrong also, took it to mean 2 years before you were married, not 2 years into the marriage, which is why I think you got so many negative reactions to it.

It just shows you, on an internet forum, unless you are very clear in your posts, people will take that holier than thou attitude and slam you into the fence...

............................................ Read Tamara's post wrong, I need to go to bed.

Anyway I appreciate the OP realizing her error in including her wife's MS as an example.

Yes go to bed, I saw your edit Candice ;) tut tut... :slap:

Relationships are very complex and complicated. First of all, every human is unique. So we can generalize about the differences between men and women, CDs and non-CDs, or any category we can think of, yet it all adds up to one unique person trying to live with another unique person. Also, every person is every changing. We learn and grow every day, and sometimes we decide to change something about our lives. There are so many topics that two people won't agree on and those disagreements may lead to divorce. i.e sex, money, religion, work, family etc. How often do you want sex? What do you like to spend discretionary income on? Do you have any secret sexual fetishes or preferences? hmmm…. It doesn't work if one person discloses personal secrets and the other doesn't!

It's my belief that everyone should read several relationship books before thinking about marriage. Too bad this is rarely suggested by parents, teachers or counselors when we're at the usual marrying age (20s-early30s).

My wife has changed allot since we married. She has become very different. . Much of it is do to health. She got sick, almost died 3 times the last one was real close, full organ shut down(lungs, kidneys, heart).. she gained a lot of weight because of medication and depression from being ill. I understand that, so i try hard to remember that when she goes psycho on me. She became very homophobic, and while she tolerates my dressing, she sometimes says horrid mean things. Obviously i did not reversal this side of me until later in the marriage. Not out of dishonesty but i denied it to myself. Kept trying to stop the urges. Hating myself for it. Suffering and denying. The difference here is very little. Neither of us had any secret we were hiding. This side of me was not a secret as she knew i enjoyed silky women's lacy things. And had even bought me a nightie once. But the extent to which this was a part of me was hidden so deep even i had no idea. Neither of us are to blame for anything other than being human. We grow and learn and change and sometimes it's great wonderful changes. And sometimes it's not. But through all of it, i know she needs me. And i made her a promise 18 years ago, for better or worse, sickness and health. And well, i aim to keep it. There is no blame in marriage. There is just us, and we must remember that we are human. Fallible, ignorant, sometimes selfish, but always us.

It would have been nice if my second wife had told me she was a writer of bad checks and engaged in illegal activity in her business before I married her.
I think that would have been a deal breaker.

what a great idea for a new thread..."how our ex-wives messed up our life"

when my ex's said "i do", i didn't know they were talking about with all of my friends!

I feel that women have a lot of skeletons in the cupboard also.
Especially "women of the world" who marry some meek and mild man.
Are they taking him for a ride?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant

Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Because that is usually the biggest/most important secret in the relationship. She usually can't top it. Usually.

---

My buddy dated a woman for several years, and she never took a drink. On their wedding night, she went through 3 bottles of champagne and never looked back. She drank a bottle of vodka every day, and was almost constantly drunk. She also concealed thousands of dollars of gambling debts, from a gambling problem. She died of liver failure, a week after their divorce was final!

Another friend of mine married a woman only to find out later she had a no good kid in prison, with a record as long as your arm.
CDers don't have a monopoly on deception and concealment.

^.^

I think this forum may seem to make it look as though CDers are the only ones disclosing, because various aspects of it, and conversations about it are all over this venue. However, other posters here are also right ... women have things that they keep to themselves, things that they disclose perhaps later.

I think that the general idea espoused by most here, that communication with your SO is important so that THIS part of yourself is not what is being hidden from them.


Amy M. Jackson