Let Boys Be Girls

This is loosely referencing the post in the "Media" section titled "Leave the Children Alone" or something like that. It's an article about (against) early transition, which seems like something we should be in favor of. I'm not. M to F is the only thing I know anything about, so I'll confine my comments to that.

I'm sure there are unique situations where early transition is proper, but I don't understand why even within an environment of open-mindedness and acceptance there seems to be an overlooked middle ground. Let them crossdress. I can already feel the wrath of my TS sisters. I freely admit that I don't know what that's like. I just think that early transition is just a "cutting edge" twist on traditional binary gender views. If a boy wants to wear dresses or have long hair, he must be TS, he must really be a girl. Maybe those are just the ones who make headlines, but I think therapists tend to overlook the validity of being a crossdresser.

When I was the age of some of these boys I didn't know or think about a difference between boys and girls other than how they looked or dressed. I don't know when I first knew that having a vagina defined you as a girl and a penis defined you as a boy. Even after I knew I probably didn't think it was important. It 's not something you're born knowing. I think some parents are way too quick to take a kid to a therapist, and therapists want to be smart and cutting edge and may feel pressure to fix something that doesn't need fixing.

Letting a boy have long hair, or wear makeup or dresses, etc. shouldn't require the guidance of a therapist. I do not understand why it's a big deal. No doctor's appointments, no headlines, nothing permanent. It doesn't seem that crossdressing is an acceptable option. There are certainly examples of accepting parents, but it seems to lean to the more serious options.

The story seems to usually be, "He always wanted to wear dresses, wanted long hair, wanted to wear makeup, wore high heels, wanted his ears pierced..." Sound familiar? What's wrong with letting them do exactly that. But no. It seems those boys get carted off to the therapist.

I (of course) see nothing wrong with allowing a boy to crossdress, or (heaven forbid) crossdress throughout his life. Why does it have to be something bigger than that?

I think the article that provoked the thread in reference was entirely intended to provoke. The fact is there is no transition advocacy force out there compelling parents to force their children into early transition. There are lots of parents however, who are struggling with uncertainty and seeking the best available guidance from the medical and psychiatric communities. The problems these parents and kids face are diverse and cover a broad spectrum..from intersex children to kids with behavioral preferences of the other gender. Some kids have clear cut self images, many others do not, and no one is advocating a one size fits all approach to serving these kid's best interests. But that wouldn't make for a particularly lurid or provocative editorial, so all TS kids get lumped together and the broad range professional responses are reduced to a pair of diametrically opposed extremes.

If I had a child dealing with gender identity issues, of course I'd want to select the response that allowed him or her the greatest comfort, opportunity for self determination and potential for personal growth and development. I can see that in some cases, delaying any concrete decisions on asserting a gender may be the best choice. I can also imagine situations where early intervention may permit the child to the experiences of childhood, adolescence, puberty and adulthood that are most appropriate to that child's gender identity. I would leave such decisions to the parents and the competent professions of their choice and ask that everyone else let them alone.

Will all the outcomes be perfect? No. Will there be some regrets and second guessing later on? Yes.

We live in an imperfect world and are forced to make difficult decisions with incomplete and sometimes contradictory information. I guess the alternative is to do nothing...then be criticized later for failing to act.

Hi Rhonda. I have to agree with you. I just read a story about a natal male whose parents allowed him to dress and express as a girl (at his request) from about age 5 through maybe 10 or so. There were no restrictions on his expression, so he could wear what he wanted, play with whomever or whatever he wanted, and be attracted to whomever he wanted. For those years he seemed to be a stereotypical girl in all ways.

He's now in his early 20's and has grown up to become a happy, confident, and caring young man. He's gender-normatively male and heterosexual.

Where would this person be if he had been "supported" in his early gender expression through surgery? This whole idea of a gender sexual binary creates so many unnecessary problems. We need to allow room for people to express anywhere along the spectrum (or perhaps a plane, a solid, or a tesseract; the more dimensions we allow, the better!).

I have worn multiple gender and sexual identities through my life. In my early 20s I nearly died in order to become a woman. That scared me so I retreated into a cover of manhood, and now feel myself most accurately placed somewhere between the various dyads: male v female physically, male v female presenting, CD v TS, and hetero- v homosexual. Even on this forum I've met with incomprehension and resistance when trying to explain gender fluidity.

I suspect the supportive early surgical interventions may sometimes be, as you suggest, an ill-informed treatment based on a no longer relevant gender binary model.

~Rachel

No wrath here Rhonda but I'll tell you where you're wrong.

Let boys be girls, or letting girls be boys...all of that is good and fine. But what about that girl who wants to be a girl even though she's a boy? Or that boy who wants to be a boy when he's a girl???

I'm not an expert on what is involved in dealing with transgendered youth (and I have yet to read the referenced article) but what seems to be a very sympathetic approach is to let the child get through their formative years with love, counseling and knowledge along with medically delayed puberty which allows them to decide later what path to take without having their body already ravaged by hormones that may be contrary to their being. Seems to make a whole lot of sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

But what about that girl who wants to be a girl even though she's a boy? Or that boy who wants to be a boy when he's a girl???

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Even I'm confused! And that's part of the point. I'm old, and I don't even know.

I was allowed quite a bit of latitude in that regard (and that regard only!) when I was a kid. I think I was probably the kind of kid who'd be carted off to a therapist today, and maybe one of those in the newspaper. I'll assure you my parents knew nothing of any psycho-anything back then. If they had it probably would have scared the crap out of them. As it was, it just wasn't a big deal... because they didn't know it was supposed to be.

I think that parents, and I'm talking about the good ones here, are very afraid of making a mistake and only want the very best for their children. They're scared, and dealing with something they know nothing about. It seems right to seek help, and I don't fault them for that. I think there are times when there's really nothing "wrong", unless growing up a crossdresser is wrong (which to most it is). It's not something that requires clinical intervention. I understand about puberty. That's a huge consideration.

It's amazing to me that in 2014 society as a whole still has such rigid standards of gender. I'm not sure I'm expressing my point adequately. I don't understand why even within the liberal psyche community that it's so damn important to pick a side.

Hypothetically, let's say some 8 year old want to grow his hair down to his waist, get his ears pierced, and wear nail polish. One extreme says, "No son of mine...", another says, "He thinks he's a girl! We must get him professional help!" There's another approach that just says, "OK!".

The people who transition at a young age are vetted out as transsexuals and they are not CDs. Letting a person live their life the way they feel inside is totally different than the OPs perspective of kids experimenting or who are CD

When I was growing up my parents used to tell me if I wanted something I could have it, as long as I paid for it. I feel the same way about transitioning, if it's that important to the child then he or she should earn their own money to pay for it. It may take a long long time and a whole lot of saving, but by the time they have the money they should know whether or not they really want this.

As I understand it, most sensible societies at the moment, won't permit (full) transition until 16 at the earliest. Pretty much all of them require extensive counselling to be as certain as possible before going ahead with hormones, let alone surgery. In some cases, they may allow, or suggest, drugs to delay puberty, in order to avoid facial and body features becoming heavily tilted toward the male side. i.e., temporarily suppress testosterone. I remember reading about that for Kim Petras.

There definitely have been cases of young men undergoing surgery and regretting it later on. One of the very earliest publicly acknowledged transitions ended up that way. Some singer?

The trans children you hear about in the media are rare, but the prevalence appears magnified by the drama flying around the issue. I find it most instructive to listen to the parents themselves. Their stories are remarkably similar to each other. They tell of the child, whether XX or XY, insisting from a very early age that they are the opposite of their birth gender. In spite of the parents attempts to correct the child, he/she continues to insist. The words insistent, consistent and persistent are used regularly. The story continues this way until the child concludes they must either cut off the inappropriate body parts or kill themselves, whereupon one or both parents realize they have no choice but to support the child. It's not a lightly made decision and anyone who tries to impose their own opinions on the situation

Anyone who tries to impose their own opinions on the situation is gravely mistaken. No one but the family members themselves can understand all the conflicting emotion, confusion, frustration and introspection that takes place on the road to acceptance. It may be similar to the five stages of grief in that the family has to come to terms with losing the child they expected to be raising. No one has a harder job than these parents and no one outside the situation has a right to comment. Including myself, except that my response is to offer support.

Everyone on this planet is different, with different paths through it. We must reduce the barriers society has placed in front of those of us who don' t conform.

My god, I wish I could've transitioned as a child - that that could've even been an option for me. I might have had a pretty normal, happy life, instead of the waking nightmare I've endured for 50 years.

Being trans is a medical condition - one that develops during pregnancy. Your brain is literally the wrong gender - you really literally ARE a person trapped in a body of the wrong sex. Correcting this is likely done best when young. The older you transition, the more damage is done to you physically, mentally, and emotionally by your own body poisoning itself with the wrong hormones.

I've always longed to have a normal life - to be a nice straight girl, married to a nice guy, with a family. To live as a woman, both through the good times, and the bad ones. In a lot of ways, it's too late for me. I never had a chance at a normal life as my authentic self. Instead, I lived in fear, and almost everything I said was a calculated lie to keep myself safe. It was a horrible existence. I don't have to live that way anymore, and it's a relief. Transitioning as late as I am now, though, I'll need tons of surgery, and I still will never be quite right. As for living a normal, happy life in the straight world - no way that happens now. I'm - well, this thing that has relationships my friends and family can't remotely tolerate. I've missed most of the stuff in my life women seem to look forward too. I'm at the part (late-middle / old age) that few women seem to love. And I am so very Queer.

So why bother to transition? Because it beats death, and I really do feel so much better. But mainly, I can help others avoid a nightmare like the one I've lived through.

This is a very thoughtful and considerate OP and equally thoughtful replies. :) Part of what would make us worthy of being a force for change if only we could find a way of being more of a community than we are (That's not a moan - just an observation, being as how many of us are scattered around the globe).

Reading this and many other experiences and views over the past 9 months really makes realise how fortunate I am (in a way...) to only need small 'doses' of this passion to keep the pink-skirted gremlins at bay... I've never needed to share what I felt (until recently); I've only just begun to feel the urge to go public, and even then I think I could suppress this for longer; I certainly don't have that haunting voice in my mind all the time reminding me that there's another side to me.... of course it's in there, but it's not been such a dissonance as it obviously is for so many others - and I do feel for all of you and everyone that suffers this from childhood... :hugs:

It needs and demands more awareness and for a lot of us - those of us CD-TG but not needing to be TS - the accommodation is on that's so simple: just let kids dress the way they want... How easy a solution is that? How much angst would that remove for a lot of us? But...

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

It's amazing to me that in 2014 society as a whole still has such rigid standards of gender. I'm not sure I'm expressing my point adequately. I don't understand why even within the liberal psyche community that it's so damn important to pick a side.

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...here's the problem. For some reason I'm reminded of a news article on a hippy commune here in the UK probably about 30 years ago (I'll go Google this in a min..) referred to as 'Teepee Village' in Wales. What I remember from that was that the children were self-schooled, I believe, but also that dress was very gender non-specific. People - and children were included - were allowed to just express themselves naturally... isn't that a wonderful way to be? Crossdressing to express how you feel isn't rebelling, isn't going against norms (in that environment) and in fact isn't actually crossdressing! It's purely dressing to express how you are and want to be. :cheer:

I would agree that there needs to be a sensible limitation and screening process for early transition, but that it should be something that is more often considered in the right circumstances. As we are entering a period where I believe gender transition will be more readily accessible (albeit at a price) there still needs to be the right safeguards in place to stop this becoming purely a 'fashion' choice (In the future I think it will be...) - but I think of the dozens or hundreds of folk here who have written so emotionally of how they feel at a later stage of life and how their life could have been made considerably more harmonious and right, if only they had the awareness and the choice. There must be tens of thousands - possibly hundreds of thousands - of people out there who would positively benefit from just being able to express these feelings and reach a better understanding of themselves.

So how do we help influence that? :)

A thought provoking post Rhonda, thank you...

Katey x

There's nothing wrong with giving testosterone blockers to a young MTF child who feels they're a transsexual, as it doesn't do anything to feminize them, it's not a female hormone, it just prevents them from going through male puberty which is a VERY good thing if they ultimately decide to transition. If at some time they decide that they aren't a TS, they can stop the t-blocker and go through male puberty if they want to.

Carol

Rhonda I'm not going to dispute what you're saying because I think you have some valid points ! All this is centered around boys, if a girl wants to climb trees it's more practical to put her in jeans but if a boy wants to play girly games wearing a dress there could be something seriously wrong and maybe rush him off for therapy.
I think some of this is down to our expectations of a boy, wanting them to be good male role models ! Something a girl doesn't go through !

Hi,

Depends on how transition is viewed and by whom, and how much interferance is made by some so called Dr,s and GP,s and what surgerys are performed , many of us have ...BEEN ...forced to have surgery,s while not much older that weeks or a few months at the most , ,

For many the Mom,s and Dads did not have a say the Dr,s took over ,

Okay this is about us of cause who are intersexed , and case,s that were done have resulted in them taking thier own life at a later date others were forced to live a life that was wrong for them and by the time it was realised it was to late , , some surgery,s could not be redone and others were a botched result,

When we Know what we are or at an age we...REALLY... do know then ...WE...should be the ones to say what should or not be done .

,,,,,,>>>>> ,NOT.. SOME ONE ELSE...<<<<< acting for us, and then do surgerys,

At least our County,,, Germany,,, has granted this right to us and for us to have our say,

I know theres a lot more to this and what is best for us should be up to us , this includes Hormones and surgerys,

I know for my self had i opened my mouth about being different or intersex , I would have been carted of to the Nuthouse , and had no life at all after if in fact i got out ,

My thoughts are to many people telling us what we should or not do and they know ....NOTHING....GOT it , They really know nothing , and NEVER.... WILL.......

...noeleena...

How many six year old children are mature enough to decide that they should transition to the opposite sex? Seven year olds? Ten, twelve, fourteen year olds?

The answer, of course, is none. Better would be to examine why this child wants to wear dresses, play with dolls, etc.

Once the child is old enough to understand (eighteen or so), it should be his or her decision along with help from the parents and professionals.

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Originally Posted by suzanne

The story continues this way until the child concludes they must either cut off the inappropriate body parts or kill themselves, whereupon one or both parents realize they have no choice but to support the child.

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This is certainly the common story. I didn't have a sister close to my own age. I suppose I was a teenager before I saw a naked girl. When I was that these boys are I literally had no idea that mine was different from theirs. I certainly wouldn't have had any idea of why I might want one like theirs or not want mine. The difference between boys and girls was largely what was outwardly visible.

I don't ask the following question to be inflammatory. Only to understand. Are you saying that it's not about the clothes and other outward trappings of being a girl? Hypothetically then, for these boys who are so highly dysphoric that the want to "cut it off", would surgical alteration solve their dysphoria?

My "condition" is totally about outward appearance, and has always been. I understand completely why a boy would want to look and dress like a girl. I cannot comprehend why it would matter to a child whether they had a penis or a vagina. Nobody sees it. What mattered/matters is hair, clothes, jewelry, maybe even extend that to voice and mannerism, maybe extend it further to playing with dolls or other traditionally feminine play. I don't see how it ever becomes a penis/vagina thing. When you're an adult, I get it. I just don't get it when it comes to kids.

PaulaQ, Sara, my TS friends... I support you completely. I'm not talking about adult decisions. What I'm saying is that diagnosing children as ts and putting them on a ts path is a continuation of rigid gender "rules". You can change or you can stay the same, but you have to be one or the other. Simply permitting an inbetween seems still not widely acceptable. I think that in some of these cases it's easier to have a diagnosis, a prescribed path, a reason, and a "cure" in sight, instead of being "permissive" and just allowing all the outward trappings simply because that's what makes the child happy.

When I was younger boys wearing dresses was part of a big underground movement.
We all had fun and I do not think much has changed in that regard.

Rhonda, I think a lot of us of us grew up under your premise, or at least we did so in our own little worlds. Kids play around without filters (ie - gender) and most seem to grow out of it. The question seems to be what the parental reaction could or should be, short of full-blown therapy which I agree is probably unnecessary for most children who are simply experimenting.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

The people who transition at a young age are vetted out as transsexuals and they are not CDs.

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Very true, and that child has to have the self-awareness coupled with a willingness to communicate their issue in order to be vetted. Growing up in the '70's, I never allowed myself to even approach that point. Something told me that who I am was wrong. Would it have been any different now? Perhaps, given the resources that are out there.

There may be more opportunity out there for the TS child but it doesn't mean things are any easier for them. The internal conflict is the same now as it always has been.

I can't help wondering if this isn't the same old idea that "trans is bad, we've got to cure it." Instead of electroshock and aversion therapy, we're now using hormones and surgery.

If SRS is right for you, then go for it! But the decision should be yours not something that's forced on you by others.

Personally, I like being a woman in a male body. I don't see anything wrong with that, and I have no intention of changing. But one size does not fit all. I'd never consider taking what's right for me and ramming it down someone else's throat.

I agree, Rhonda Jean. Yes, some boys who want to wear dresses are TS, but some, like me, aren't. I was caught playing with lipstick and punished. That drove me deep into the closet but the drive to crossdress didn't go away. What if I had been caught 3 times, or 5, or 10? Would I have been shuffled off to shrinks and surgeons? Back in those days there was far less gender awareness than now, and that's not saying much! You were either a boy or a girl. Somebody [else, certainly not me!] would have to choose so I could get on with normal life. I'm glad that didn't happen. I like being a guy and all that it means. But I still like (need) to crossdress.
Yes, let boys crossdress if they want to. I would only add a caution that some people don't like it and there may be bullying, etc., so be discreet until such time when it's socially acceptable to crossdress. Not likely to happen anytime soon.
It seems to me that a lot of people have trouble living in uncertainty. Boy or girl? We have to know which, and NOW! Let's do something, NOW!
I'm glad to have read that some parents are patient with their child's sex and gender issues, allowing nature to work its way on its own schedule.

A good point cynthia. SRS is an enormous step and not for everyone. I think you should be at least 18 before SRS is allowed. Hormones and all other interventions should be used only if the child insists and has been given a green light by a doctor and therapist. But if they are happy crossdressing and presenting as another gender, then go for it. We all say we want whats best for our children, and that should include to crossdress. Its not an easy one, they will be subject to ridicule and social exclusion. But puberty will be a difficult time for someone on the spectrum. Dunno, tough question and problem all around

Note: the thread referenced in the initial posting is over here

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Originally Posted by nvlady

When I was growing up my parents used to tell me if I wanted something I could have it, as long as I paid for it. I feel the same way about transitioning, if it's that important to the child then he or she should earn their own money to pay for it. It may take a long long time and a whole lot of saving, but by the time they have the money they should know whether or not they really want this.

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If your young child had a blocked valve in the heart, would you tell the child "If you want your heart repaired, save up until you have the money to fix it." ?? Transition is not a luxury, and being transsexual is not a choice!

Hi Rhonda Jean,

Very thought provoking thread. However, I cannot agree 100 percent with the premise that if your child is in emotional stress due to gender identity issues that we would not want to get them some help. Now if your son or daughter decided one day to wear clothing of the opposite gender and you asked "Why?" and he/she said it was because they wanted to . . . I don't think I would recommend hauling them off to a therapist post haste because let's face it . . . young kids like to experiment. However, if the behavior continued and the child truly felt he/she was the opposite gender then it is time to involve a specialist to help bring order to chaos. If you just allow your child to express themselves (i.e., dress/present as the opposite gender) where do you draw the line . . . do you let your son go to school in a dress? If so, how are you going to help him deal with the pressure which is going to be exerted on him? If you tell him he can dress at home but not anywhere else and he truly is TS then are you prepared to deal with emotional stress of letting him be a part-time girl when he wants to be full time?

I am not saying all therapists are created equal and that is why parents must do their homework before taking a child to a gender identity therapist. Just because you do so does not automatically mean the child gets fast tracked to transition. A good therapist will ensure as they do with adults that the individual is truly TS before moving forward. If the child turns out to be CD only, then I am sure the therapist can work with the family to come up with a way to integrate the child's expression into his/her life. However, if the child is truly TS then given what so many adult TS go through (emotionally) with waiting for so long to transition, is it not the kinder option to allow the inevitable to occur sooner than later and allow the child to grow up in his/her appropriate gender rather than being trapped in the wrong gender until they are 18 or older?

Hugs

Isha

Children in the US are not give hrt at least until they are 16, and that is rare, in most cases not until 18.

There is no surgery either until they are 18

They may be given puberty blockers but if taken off puberty simple resumes.

So if a child is born male but is constantly identifying as a girl what is the harm in allowing them to do so? If they grow out of it, if things shift, they can still go back to being a boy (or girl) with no lasting physical changes.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

How many six year old children are mature enough to decide that they should transition to the opposite sex? Seven year olds? Ten, twelve, fourteen year olds?

The answer, of course, is none. Better would be to examine why this child wants to wear dresses, play with dolls, etc.

Once the child is old enough to understand (eighteen or so), it should be his or her decision along with help from the parents and professionals.

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That's why typically no surgical stuff is done until 18 or older. Under 18, they are (hopefully) given support by family and friends while they see what it's like living in their gender role of choice. And the trans kids do have help from parents and professionals all along their journey. This is not a case of parents just arbitrarily deciding to let their child live in the opposite gender role.

Assuming that you're a CD, you're making an error thinking that a young TS will be able to deal well with being forced to live in the wrong gender role until they're 18. If someone is transsexual, it's now known that making them through puberty in their birth gender role makes transition a lot more difficult.

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Originally Posted by nvlady

When I was growing up my parents used to tell me if I wanted something I could have it, as long as I paid for it. I feel the same way about transitioning, if it's that important to the child then he or she should earn their own money to pay for it. It may take a long long time and a whole lot of saving, but by the time they have the money they should know whether or not they really want this.

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You're kidding, I hope.

Carol

Roles, roles, roles.

Parents have a baby with a certain set of chromosomes. This sets certain expectations. Blue instead of pink. Trucks instead of dolls.

This has *nothing* to do with how they are wired inside. If we could just disconnect those things, it would be SO much easier.

I'm a (grand)parent. Let your kids be THEMSELVES. That is the best way to ensure that they grow up to be confident, strong people.

- MM

There appears to be a great deal of misinformation on this thread about early transition. First of all, many very young children (some from as early as around age 2) DO know that they really are, or desperately want to be, a member of the sex opposite to the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Second, blockers and feminizing hormones are being authorized at or around the optimal age for transition---depending upon the individual circumstances of the case. Third, the only sure way to help an MtF transgender girl ultimately become indistinguishable from a natal girl is via early transition--blockers around the onset of puberty, hormones in the teen years, followed by SRS at the appropriate time. Many MtF children nowadays have been lucky enough to be able to start their social transition at school age (or even a bit earlier in a few cases), and then to begin the physical transition in their teens. The diagnostic criteria for transgender status are well established, and have been adjusted in recent years to take into account the possibility and advantages of early transition. Result: Many (hundreds, thousands) of very happy children and teenagers and young adults who are now living in the gender to which they have always felt they belonged.