Why do we put GG's on a pedestal?

After reading Danielle's rant, she brought up an interesting point. A lot of people here put GG's on a pedestal. I have read a lot of things along the lines of

1. A TS or CD can never be as pretty as or prettier than a GG.

2. A TS or CD can never be as feminine or more feminine than a GG.

3. A TS or CD can never be as sensitive or more sensitive than a GG.

4. A thread was once started by a GG asking why are CDers often prettier than GG's. Someone, a CDer, replied by saying that if that thread had been started by a CDer instead, everyone would have stomped on him.

When I read some of these kind of statements, I find them to be very transphobic.

So my questions for everyone.

1. Why do we put GG's on a pedestal here?

2. How do you think that TSes who suffer with serious gender issues might feel when you tell them that they can never be as pretty as a GG, or can never be as feminine or sensitive as a GG? Like being TS we go through enough being discriminated against by society and suffering for decades with being in the wrong body, and being told to "man up"? Society tells us enough that we're second class to GG's. Do we in the trans community really need to perpetuate this idea that TSes are inferior to GG's?

3. Who gives anyone the authority to declare one group of people superior to another?

Some TSs are prettier than some GGs.
Some TSs act more feminine than some GGs.
Some TSs are more sensitive than some GGs.

If people talk more about the opposite on this site, it's probably because the moderators and many of the members like having GGs posting here, and believe that the environment will be more welcoming to GGs if they feel valued rather than threatened.

You're right to point out that the group should probably be at least as concerned with TS feelings as with GG feelings, but I can see why the moderators encourage a culture which treats GGs with warmth and affection.

I think it's quite simple, really. We want to be, emulate, or at the very least dress like GGs. Many of us also seek their understanding and approval. Why wouldn't we idolize them?

You know this about GGs being put on a pedestal has come up a few times, and all the replies from GGS were please don't put me on this pedestal. I'm no different than anyone else and do not want to be put up there.

I think there are several reasons for this:
- Women are insecure about their bodies & gender role, modern media spends billions to insure it. Talking about pretty feminine TG ladies is bound to increase that insecurity for some GGs.

- There is a natural tendency for CDs / TGs with GG SOs to want to preserve those relationships. Given the ambivalence with which even accepting GGs often feel about their SOs gender variance, not making waves is kind of a good idea, at least from the perspective of a CD in a relationship!

- Male attitudes about protecting the weaker sex are alive and well here. Were I a GG, such condescension would anger me. I think this is a big one.

- The support for partners of a trans* person are basically non-existent. A certain amount of slack for women expressing some pretty raw feelings is probably warranted.

I don't want to be treated any differently either, never have.

_{although I am treated differently here.}

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Originally Posted by JessM.

..., it's probably because the moderators ... like having GGs posting here, and believe that the environment will be more welcoming to GGs if they feel valued rather than threatened.

... but I can see why the moderators encourage a culture which treats GGs with warmth and affection.

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The moderators do not create the environment, that is done by the members, the moderators keep things running smoothly and welcome all members no matter their gender. GGs are no more or no less valued than any other member. Moderators encourage a culture which treats all members alike, no-one group is favoured above another.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

After reading Isha's and Danielle's rants, Danielle brought up an interesting point. A lot of people here put GG's on a pedestal. I have read a lot of things along the lines of
So my questions for everyone.
1. Why do we put GG's on a pedestal here?
2. How do you think that TSes who suffer with serious gender issues might feel when you tell them that they can never be as pretty as a GG, or can never be as feminine or sensitive as a GG? Like being TS we go through enough being discriminated against by society and suffering for decades with being in the wrong body, and being told to "man up"? Society tells us enough that we're second class to GG's. Do we in the trans community really need to perpetuate this idea that TSes are inferior to GG's?
3. Who gives anyone the authority to declare one group of people superior to another?

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1. Im not sure about a pedestal but bash them too much and they may stop coming back.
2. No idea how the TSes feel but harsh reality is that the more testosterone you have had in you body the less you will look like a GG. Some may not like that fact but not liking it doesn't change it. Thats why the younger the better if you are going to switch.
3. As you know only the almighty Xenu can do that.

I am not in the "put them on a pedestal" Camp. For those that post here, I may go a bit overboard in praise, but more just to let them know that I truly appreciate that they are on this form and take the time to participate in the various discussions. They certainly don't have to do that, so I respect them for that. Am I envious of some women for they way the look...ABSOLUTELY! But I may not know anything about them, have no idea what type of person they are, just that they look great. No pedestal there.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

1. Why do we put GG's on a pedestal here?

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Someone who is born female is special. She has the ability to give birth

Sadly, that is something most of us here will never be able to do

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Originally Posted by susan jackson

Someone who is born female is special. She has the ability to give birth

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Well yes but only if there is a man around as well........ glad I got the hunting role regarding births.

It's not really a pedestal that I place GGs on. But I adore them, I want to be around them, I want to look like them...and I think the world would be a better place if GGs ran it.

I don't put GG's on a pedestal per se, just appreciate them for who they are and give them credit for what they deal with day in and day out as women. They can accomplish a lot of positive things with far less than many of us can. That's just the way I see it. :battingeyelashes::)

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Originally Posted by Nigella

The moderators do not create the environment, that is done by the members.

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Fair enough. I rephrase:

I think many of the members like having GGs posting here, and believe that the environment is more welcoming to GGs if they feel valued rather than devalued. You're right to point out that the group should probably be at least as concerned with TS feelings as with GG feelings.

I have slowly come to realize, that there are attributes GG's possess, that i want to emulate, but, lately, i have found there are some attributes of GG's I do not at all want to emulate! I have certainly, for decades put GG's on high pedestals , almost idolizing and worshiping them. Reality hit, and i was disillusioned to find out that GG's are human, too, strengths, and weaknesses, and blind spots, too. A wise old sage has addressed putting people on a pedestal. He calls it the "wobbly throne". Falling off, is a big disappointment for us and them.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

You're right to point out that the group should probably be at least as concerned with TS feelings as with GG feelings.

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I'd just be happy if people would just stop tacking the following on to their posts:

"Your relationship CAN survive this! Unless you are TS, in that case you shouldn't expect your wife to stay around." We know we are undesirable partners, from the perspective of many people.

I suppose in fairness, since one of the rants was mine, I should chime in with my two cents. I think as males... we have a natural tendency to be fixers. We often think that by saying the things we think that women want to hear... we can make things better, when in all honestly....a simple "Thank you, I appreciate you" or "I hear you and what you're saying is important" is the two most important things we can do for our spouses.

GGs know, do, and live everything we espouse. It's not a question of pedestal but of mentor and exemplar. That makes them pretty important to us!

Hi all,

I just want to go on record that my rant had nothing to do with GGs pedestal or no pedestal.

However, placing someone on a pedestal . . . never a good thing as when you find your idea does not match reality well it is a big let down. That doesn't matter whether it is a GG, GM, TS, CD or a German Shepherd (I like Rin Tin Tin for the record).

I respect the GGs who post here and take the time to bring their perspective to the forum but then I again I respect anyone who posts here (so long as they play nice that is :battingeyelashes:) and adds to the greater body of experience. I love my wife but I don't put her on a pedestal as she doesn't want or need it anymore than I as a guy would want to be on one. We are all human and humans are flawed so I tend to leave pedestals alone.

Hugs

Isha

I have never placed women on a pedestal and it would seem odd to do so. Not placing women on a pedestal is one of the ways I knew I was different from men and this added to many other differences continued to confirm that my brain and the mind that resides in it would never identify with men as a man.

I have always related to women as a woman even when I did not realize this was what I was doing. I was doing what felt natural and it has always been effortless.

It does'nt surprise me that men who crossdress place women on a pedestal because thats what many men do and I'm inclined to say that this is particularly true for crossdressers. It is a mixture of their sexuality and their adoration drapped over their bodies and reflected in the mirror.

From my perspective crossdressers are clearly men and what is really interesting is how many are, separate from the crossdressing, extremely masculine.

I have never adored women. I have never idolized them and often I don't much like them but I certainly have always identified "with them" and as "one of them", for better or worse.

Women are just women. There is nothing particularly special about them as a gender but it is useful that men think otherwise.

I certainly don't put GGs on a pedestal. It's a wonder I like them at all. But I hope they continue to contribute here because it's refreshing to hear their side of the story compared to the BS we CDs say about ourselves.

I'll admit it--I have put GGs on a pedestal, and I do greatly admire many women. However, I have come to understand that my idealization of anyone is a direct reflection of my own self-esteem. So, when I am down on myself for the aspects of my being (looks, body, boring clothes, societal expectations, etc.) then I am more likely to idealize (I suppose it is envy) those who have/are what I don't/am not. We're all people. We're all special in our uniqueness. Nancy

Because a girl usually becomes your best friend. :)

I think it is much more of a CD issue then a TS issue.

I'm not in competition with anyone - TS, CD, GG (unless there is a guy involved ;)

I've been around long enough to experience in my own relationships, business and personal, there are many GG's who are a disgrace to the human race, let alone the female side of the equation. If there is something akin to an acceptance meter I'd say I have female relatives who range from 0% to 100%. When I am at the mall or other places where I may encounter females who look attractive, and, in my mind they may be a woman I would want to at least appear as, I really don't know much about them. I've tried to engage some of the most attractive females, and for that matter handsome men, in conversation. Well, yuck! I would not want to be him or her or married to him or her.

I remember one instance in college when a very attractive, sexy and seductive young woman, would not date a young man unless he had a car. I wonder what she looks like now?

I think that your first three points are false generalizations. There are a great many CD/"T-girls" that prettier, more feminine, and more sensitive than many genetic women.

I am not sure that we put women on a pedestal but, rather, we admire many qualities about them and try to emulate those qualities as best we can. Unfortunately, much of society" puts down people who are not like them (think race, sexual orientation, religion). Fortunately, education can help reduce these prejudices.

I think this is a rather large overgeneralization of the attitudes here. Personally, I don't put anyone on pedestals. I appreciate open mindedness, intelligence, curiosity, tolerance and the ability to express ones views clearly and thoughtfully, just as I appreciate physical attractiveness and a sense of style - these are all rather subjective criteria and not gender specific. I think its fair to say that this forum includes some individual who have rather romanticized or idealized views of women and equally unrealistic perceptions of masculinity. I suppose there are as many narcissists here as in the general society, people who for whatever reason, think the entire world revolves around them and exists for their gratification. And there are plain old misogynists among us, who to varying degrees resent or envy women.

I love GG. I try not to put them on a pedestal but they do deserve to be revered. I also am very chivalrous. Possible the most masculine thing about me.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

After reading Danielle's rant, she brought up an interesting point. A lot of people here put GG's on a pedestal. I have read a lot of things along the lines of

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1. A TS or CD can never be as pretty as or prettier than a GG.

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That's not always true. I know some beautiful TS women. The trap we often find ourselves in is comparing ourselves to the most beautiful woman in the room, or the beautiful woman in the magazine or TV show or movie. The joke here is that women fall into the same trap. Eventually a TS realizes that she doesn't have to be the most beautiful woman in the room, even better if she's not. She just has to look "about average". We have to learn to dress appropriate to age, size, and situation. A girl who goes to Target in 3 inch heels, miniskirt and satin blouse and big hair wig is going to get attention - and will probably get read as CD or drag queen even if she's a GG.

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2. A TS or CD can never be as feminine or more feminine than a GG.

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Again, this is all relative. Compared to a top fashion model or pop singer, we may seem butch, but compared to the average woman in the shopping mall, we may actually stand out for being too feminine.

Part of the challenge here is that many of us have tried very hard to hide our feminine traits and mannerisms when we had to be men. Others, like me could barely "pass" as male, and even then the assumption was usually that I was "gay or something". It's really funny, now that I have been reading more books on how transitioners act like girls, I realize that it was probably obvious to women that I was a girl on the inside, and doing a very poor job of hiding it.

On the other hand, compared to many women my age, I look darn good, and am pretty feminine. I had to break a few habits that I had been forced to learn as a man, for example, instead of the formal nod as you look another man in the eyes directly while facing him, I learned to tilt my head, smile, look sideways, and then down. My walk was already feminine. On the other hand, I had to learn not to "plop" into chairs - which was something I had to learn and practice doing to pass as a guy. So many more things.

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3. A TS or CD can never be as sensitive or more sensitive than a GG.

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Depends on what you mean by sensitive. As a boy growing up I had to learn NOT to cry. I had to learn NOT to giggle. Giggles, sighs, and crying were likely to provoke violence from other boys. Many fathers told their sons "quit crying or I'll give you something to cry about", which usually involved welts or bruises.

When I felt safe with my first wife, I found that I loved to watch Disney movies and cry, to watch romances, and cry, and in Wrath of Khan, when Spock died, I greived like it was the death of my own father. When my mother died, I found myself crying in even more situations. I watch the "StepMom" where Susan Sarandan is dying of cancer and start crying as soon as they get to the diagnosis, and don't stop until the end.

Once I started on hormones, shortly after my dad died, I really started to enjoy a good cry, or a good giggle.

Growing up I was considered "hyper-sensitive" for a boy, but I would have been about normal for a girl.

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4. A thread was once started by a GG asking why are CDers often prettier than GG's. Someone, a CDer, replied by saying that if that thread had been started by a CDer instead, everyone would have stomped on him.

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Both are accurate observations. About 70% of women are just women. They don't try to be women, they just are. They dress like other women because that's how other women dress, they act like other women act because that's how other women act. Women in modeling, theater, or dance often get special training in how to be "more of a woman". I'm always amused when someone points to a picture of a beautiful model in a gorgious outfit - because I know that the girl was literally "sewn into" the costume or outfit, to make it look unrealistically beautiful, then the photographer gives her warning of when he's ready to shoot and she carefully pulls in her tummy, expands her chest, chooses angles she knows look good in photographs, and pops her eyes wide open or whatever other deliberate facial expression is requested by the photographer, 36 clicks later (for film), and she can finally breathe, relax, slouch, and be "normal".

Teen girls often try to dress up more, often trying too hard to be glamorous or sexy, and sometimes with tragic consequences. As they become aware of the problems that come with being outstanding, they begin to try to blend in with their peers to avoid being singled out as a target for unwanted attention.

Some CDs never get past that teen "sexy girl" look. We've seen a few pictures of CD girls who are in their 50s but are wearing juniors fashions. One reason for this is that they never "go out and play". When they are only dressing up in the privacy of their own home, and maybe making rare trips to safe events such as CD support groups, there isn't enough feedback to know what's appropriate.

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When I read some of these kind of statements, I find them to be very transphobic.
So my questions for everyone.

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1. Why do we put GG's on a pedestal here?

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In my own experience, I used to get seriously tongue tied when I would see a girl who was extraordinarily beautiful. Part of the struggle was that I might be slightly sexually attracted to her, but I also wanted to BE her. A few times, when I was younger, I would give her complements on her choices, but when you are a guy complimenting a woman on her shoes, it's just bizarre. You risk being outed, and the persecution that comes with it. if you like her dress, because it really compliments her figure, she can't figure out whether you want to see her naked, or if you want to wear the dress. Either way, it could be awkward.

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2. How do you think that TSes who suffer with serious gender issues might feel when you tell them that they can never be as pretty as a GG, or can never be as feminine or sensitive as a GG? Like being TS we go through enough being discriminated against by society and suffering for decades with being in the wrong body, and being told to "man up"? Society tells us enough that we're second class to GG's. Do we in the trans community really need to perpetuate this idea that TSes are inferior to GG's?

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Suicidal and self destructive. When I was 14 and found out I had a Bass voice, I was devastated. It was as if she said "I sentence you to life in solitary confinement without the possibility of parole. As much as I loved singing, and I did, I desperately wanted a higher voice, even tenor would be OK. Ironically, my speaking voice was always very high. It was a bit like Jim Neighbors, but my speaking voice was even higher.

The theme of self destruction took many forms, including booze, drugs, overeating, Eventually I ended up in a mental health center and got sober, and a heart attack in 2001 (i weight over 330 lbs), a stroke in 2007 (weight 295), and a heart attack in 2010 (weight 280) made me realize that I needed access to Debbie to survive. When I was out and about as Debbie, my weight often dropped to below 200 lbs, in 1995 even dropping to 148. But when Debbie got locked in the closet or the drawer, those wonderful personality traits went with it.

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3. Who gives anyone the authority to declare one group of people superior to another?

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Much of this is who you are and who you want to be. For many TSs, cross-dressing was a phase and early steps toward transition. To them, CDs are "lower" on the scale. Some of us knew we were type 6 transsexuals, but had to go through the other stages to get to where we could have the courage to transition.

To a CD who identifies as a man, and thinks dressing is "just for fun", a TS would be "less of a man". Many men, especially those in military or sports or blue collar environments, have been conditioned to believe that it's a bad thing to be a "girl". Even some of the alternative terminology used by coaches and teammates alike are too vulgar to post here.

On the flip side, to a woman, good vs bad reflects her own desires of others. If she wants a "manly man" husband, and then finds out her husband has a thing for stockings and garterbelts - that makes him less of a man, meaning CD is worse, and TS is the worst.

On the other hand, if a woman is bisexual and is attracted to women as well as men, then a feminine man could be very attractive, and the more feminine the better. Some women even enjoy the feeling of power they get when there "sissy" husband submits to her and acts more feminine. Often, feminine men are more coachable and more eager to please, doing things requested by their wives or girlfriends that would be a serious turn-off to an "Alpha male". For these women, the challenge is pushing through that wall of defense. Some women can see that their husbands or lovers desperately want to be girls, but are terrified of what would happen if anyone, including her, found out. When a guy has had 25 years of programming that tell him he has to be a man and that being a "sissy" is so bad it merits violent attacks, it can take a very strong woman to break down those walls so that her husband or lover can be truly happy and truly be themselves.

For a transsexual, the "forced cross-dressing" was the "forced masculinity". Perhaps this is one of the reasons why "forced feminization" is such a popular art form in books, magazines, and adult films. Being "forced" makes it possible to drop the barriers created by years of forced cis-gender conformance.

That sure explains why I feel so short!