Living and dressing in-between gender 24/7

Hello there!

Let me first introduce myself!

I am a longtime cross dresser from the Netherlands (38 years old) with 2 young kids and lovely SO who is accepting who i am (without wigs and makeup since she hates 'fake')
I Adopted a 24/7 androgynous look, not overly femme stuff like pink, jewelry and makeup but still, the clothes all come from the women's department.
Since my job is creative people think it's part of being the creative guy so they seem to be ok with it (slightly gay probably but i don't care).

But here's my doubt / question:
The androgynous outfits are satisfying my inner self most of the times
but sometimes i simply also want to wear 'that' beautiful longline cardigan on top of my skinny jeans and basic top because i just like it style wise.
and that's the point where my GF says, THAT VEST is a giveaway, especially to her sister or brother in law who are around very often.

The problem is...
To be honest, of course i just want to wear it and have my family in law notice my true self.
But i explicitaly don't want to be seen as a cross dresser (nor does my girlfriend in any way),
I guess i just want to be seen as the guy with a large feminine side who happens to like a lot of women's things because.. it's who he is :)

Are there others feeling the same way?
What is your approach to it?
i am so interested!!!

X.
Jenn.

Hey Jenn :)

I wear a lot of girls clothes most of the time and mix between male & female fashion :)
I enjoy the range and style that you get with female clothes, plus I like the cut I.e. Female T-shirts look better on my body than a male T-shirt.
Because I mix it up, not that many if any really notice what I'm doing... At the end of the day fashion or your look is up to you :D

KD :D

Jennifer I feel your pain. I work in a predominantly male work place and live in a small rural area. I would love to adopt a more androgynous look but I dont feel that it would be overly accepted, especially for my age and because everyone that knows me only knows me as my male self. I have adopted a somewhat femme/unisex hair style but it seems I am like you and want to take it a few more steps but just dont know how.

People expect other people to be male or female, not somewhere in between. Birth certicifates have only those two options. Drivers licenses, employment applications, etc., are the same.

You are legally free to wear whatever you want as long as it covers your private parts but if you deviate from what's expected, you will create problems for yourself. Are you ready and willing to deal with these problems? If so, go ahead and wear your obviously female clothes. If not, keep it private or go where nobody knows you.

First of all welcome Jenn!

Nice to have another Dutch girl with us here... I personally believe you have the most lovely GGs in Europe in the Netherlands... :D

I can't say I feel the same way but I applaud your vigour in dressing how you feel... :cheer: To me, it seems like you are already 90% the way to being just on the girly side of androgynous - is it really difficult to push that extra 10%...? I don't ask that and assume it would be, but I have had a fair bit of exposure to creative agencies and I've always thought that pretty much anything goes... and a cardigan wouldn't be seen as outrageous...?

And it's super you have such an understanding SO - and perhaps your compromise is more for her feelings than anything else, which is absolutely fine too - compromise is essential in any relationship, I believe... :)

Katey x

Could you take the cardigan along to work and put it on only there? Your "work family" would see it but not your "marriage family". A compromise.
Hugs,
Ellen

I just want to be my true self, like you, I do dress full, when I can, the rest of the time, I underdress, panties, and bra, with enhancers, make-up, even on Saturday and Sunday, when I go ride my horse, I have on my make up and a bra top an enhancers. It not for anyone but me, I am no longer hiding, I no some of my student and co-works have noticed, it's out in the open how could they not, have even had one student ask me in class if I had on make-up. Had students and co-works, comment on my nail. These last two years, I have never been happier, because I am me now, not hiding.

Well since i work at home, the hiding part isn't the problem, the showing who i am is :)
And this cardigan below is just a example of how far i would go (not further since i have no need for that in public, :)
The question is, should i tell my family in law I FEEL LIKE A WOMAN or should i just do it and see what happens?

@Katey, thank you! i think that 10% to me, is the cardigan :) a full giveaway?
@ Krisi, i understand you, i understand my alpha male friends would not be able to deal with me in a dress and wig. Therefore this intermediate solution..
my highly feminine me

Below.. THE! cardigan and a look i am after (without the blonde color of the hair :)

that sounds great Annalise! Since i can't be a full women due to lot's of reasons i am probably in a different zone :) a mix is even more confusing..

It seems to me that you want the world to change its collective opinion on what a cross dresser is. That is not going to happen. If you don't to want to be thought of as a cross dresser, then you can't cross the line.

The only way that change can be affected is to cross the line. Consider men wearing earrings or women wearing pants. It is the only way to make progress. If we don't take steps then things will be the same 20 years from now. Did you ever wonder why men's fashion looks the same as it did 100 years ago?

You are so lucky having an open-minded partner.

i want to cross that line, the thing is... should i tell my sitter in law or just put on that cardigan en see what happens :)

Men's fashion does not look the same as it did 100 years ago. Get out a history book and look at the photos. One example that comes to mind is hats. 100 years ago men wore hats. Today they don't except for some who wear baseball caps backwards.

100 years ago men wore pleated trousers and leather shoes. Today they wear jeans and sneakers.

Jennifer, if you cross that line you will find that you cannot cross back. Think seriously about this before you do anything you may regret later.

I went thru' a brief andro phase. By the end of it, I was wearing all women's clothes and jewelery, carrying a purse, and had a women's hairstyle. I caught a reflection of myself in a mall window once, and said what the hell, all I was missing was the makeup, who was I trying to fool that I was a guy?

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Morgan

i want to cross that line, the thing is... should i tell my sitter in law or just put on that cardigan en see what happens :)

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If you don't care what people think, then wear a dress if you like. It's no one's business as to why. But in your earlier post you stated that you did NOT want people to know you are a cross dresser and your girlfriend had the same opinion. You can't have it both ways.

I have a great site for you! There are a lot of clothes on this site which most people would consider feminine in style. I love it though because these people think outside the box. Check em out and let me know what you think! Oh, the nice thing is that if anyone calls you out about it, you get to say... Hey, it was made for guys!

http://www.goodinthebox.com/men-polo...Csqo.pinterest

These clothes are cool Alycat!

So i guess the general advise is to stick to male clothes in male modus or... be a cross-dresser out in the open..
there is no inbetween because people will see you as a crossdresser anyway when wearing several womens clothes as a guy?

Hi Jennifer. My opinion is a bit different than some others.

There is a bit of an in between zone.

Just because you do some things that are traditionally seen as feminine does not mean that everyone will see you as a cross dresser. I have done bits and pieces of things over the years, and no, everyone has not simply assumed that on occasion I just dress up fully as a woman.

But there does appear to be some sort of tipping point with some people. In coming out to some friends recently it was revealed to me that some people had no idea and others were waiting for the day that I was going to tell them that I wanted to transition.

For example, I was sure that everyone would know that I was a cross dresser when I started wearing my nails painted 24/7. But no that is not the case. In fact one of my good male friends told me that he had no idea that I cross dressed, he just figured I liked to paint my nails and that was it! Funny. But one of my female friends asked my wife, when I showed up at their house wearing 100% female clothes, but no makeup, wig, bra, or breast forms, when I was going to transition. Her husband though, did not think anything of my clothing choices.

Maybe it is kind of like this experience - I was part of a backpacking class once. I brought my "tent partner" over to my house to get ready for our trip. When he left I asked my wife what she thought of him. She told me he was very nice, and that he was very gay. The thought of him being gay had never crossed my mind. It had never occurred to me before my wife said something. Eventually he told me that yes he is gay.

So I suppose that if one wants to look and see, maybe the signs are there, but not everyone is going to look and see, because to them it really just does not matter. For some, they will look and see any deviation from traditional maleness as cross dressing.

My advice? Go for it. Wear what you want to wear. People are going to talk, no matter what you do.

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Morgan

there is no inbetween because people will see you as a crossdresser anyway when wearing several womens clothes as a guy?

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Uh...obviously. There's no secret way to dress in women's clothing if you're a man. (The pictures posted here just strengthen this argument if you ask me) The clothes are different and people will notice. I think, from what you've written, that this is what you want? You want your family to know about this part of you? But your GF doesn't agree. Am I right?

First thing I'd ask is WHY you want anyone else to see you dressed? And then I'd ask if you can see what support you have with your accepting partner? Do you really want to pass her comfort level? There are no rules to crossdressing. There is no progression unless you allow it. There's no guaranteed better life ahead whether you do or don't. And I can tell you from my experience that a girls tee doesn't fit/feel/look any different to a boys. So why does it feel different to you? That's an important question to ask yourself.

You and YOU alone are ultimately in control of this. All I can suggest is to choose wisely and look very hard at your GF and how much she means to you. Relationships can survive this but only when both people are on the same path. x

Hi Jenn,
I would say at your age with a supportive wife and two young children you have a fairly good balance with your CDing, as least you're not in the closet and solitary confinement like I was at your age.
Some couples do have have a good relationship with sharing androgyous clothes if you're the same sizes and you partner doesn't mind, it's one way of dressing and being plausable to other people !
We all know that CDers end up wanting more !

Hi Tinkerbell,

To answer the most important question :"why do you want anyone else to see you dressed".
To me dressing is not about becoming someone else or showing off, it's about being me.
I would never 'offend' with inappropriate clothes, just casual stuff as shown in my posted pics.

About the girls tee,
Agree, they don't fit better, but design wise, it's just more appealing to me.
and it's a subtle way of accenting your femme side of course.

About my GF
I will never ever overrule here feelings towards all of this :) love her
and like Teresa mentioned, share some clothes is something already happening

@Nadine,
You mentioned "showing up 100% female clothes"
I find that an interesting thing, where that overly femme things like a dress or skirt?

I went to my friends house wearing flip flops, a tank top, and shorts, my nails were also painted. All of which were bought in the females dept. the only overtly fem item, in my opinion, were the shorts. They are super frayed, and super short. Very obviously fem. I do that sort of thing frequently. But never a skirt or dress. Those are reserved for when I also have a wig and makeup on.

You have an accepting girlfriend and seem to be able to wear what you want. You "problem" is wearing female clothing items in front of your in-laws.

Either don't wear them when your in-laws are around or wear them and don't care what they think.

If your wife is the reason you care about your sister and brother-in-law, then you should simply respect her feelings.

I am an androgynous dresser most of the time more so when on holidays.
Usually I am a girl then.

If your wife is the reason you care about your sister and brother-in-law, then you should simply respect her feelings.[/QUOTE]


Yes ofcourse, would never harm her feelings!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beverley Sims

I am an androgynous dresser most of the time more so when on holidays.
Usually I am a girl then.

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Is there a strict line for you? do you have clear sight on when crossing the 'line'?

Yes, most important part respect your SO's feelings. I too started living androgynously a year ago. Everything I wore was from the ladies rack. Of course hard to tell unless you seen the labels. But unique to what other males were wearing. Than shaving my legs fully for over the year. I started wearing my hair longer and when I started would give the hairstylist a Keira knightly look. My mom says my hair makes me look like an artist, which prompts me to keep it. I dress in the really fun stuff only at home or if I go to the city by myself. Out of respect for my SO. Otherwise I'd push bounties even farther.

Btw, I just bought a sleeveless cardigan yesterday, wondering how I could pull it off😊

I think I relate fairly precisely to you. I consider myself gender fluid as a general rule, thus the androgynous look is more or less my common way of presenting. I also have a wife and kids. My wife lets me know where she feels I have crossed some line by directly saying things like "that looks too girly." So when I am with the family I have a sort of failsafe system through her. When I am outside the realm of family, I dress as I feel, which includes skirts and other (tastefully) chosen outfits.
It is interesting that many who would question these lifestlye choices assume they are "choices."

I did that for most of my life. By the time I was 16, I couldn't buy pants that fit in the "men's department. Anything that would fit around my hips fell off my waist. I also had very long legs, so I looked like I was on my way to a flood. I could go to "unisex" stores and the clerk would take one look at my big hips, small waist, and hi-waters and walk me over to the girl's side. There I could get longer leg lengths, designed for women who wore high heels - I could get the curvy cut that could accomodate my 28 inch waist and 38 inch hips.

In the 1970s, we had "Saturday Night Fever", and guys like me who had tiny waists and larger chests could wear Quiana shirts. They felt like spandex, but they fit nicely. I usually tailored the shirts myself so that they fit around the chest AND my waist. We also had puffy sleeves. And then there were the platform shoes. No big surprise that most of the kids at my school assumed that I had to be "queer as a three dollar bill". They didn't understand tha gender preference and gender identity weren't the same thing. Of course, doctors and psychologists were pretty ignorant back then as well, so when they found out I wanted to be a girl but didn't want to have sex with guys, they assumed that they couldn't even continue the conversation, it was over before it started. The good thing for me was that the gay guys knew that even though I wasn't into that, I would forward any offers I got to them. And I got quite a few. This also provided me with protection, since several of the jocks were gay, and appreciated my descression.

As I got older and gained weight, I still found it MUCH easier to find clothes that fit in womens than mens. At the same time, to maintain a masculine appearance, I would wear a suit coat, which would also hide my always larger than normal (for a guy) butt and hips. The only problem I have these days is that my wife and I are the same size and she keeps stealing ALL my pants. Last week all I had for my road trip was skirts and dresses. I just had to "make do" ;-)

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Originally Posted by kelliT

Yes, most important part respect your SO's feelings. I too started living androgynously a year ago. Everything I wore was from the ladies rack. Of course hard to tell unless you seen the labels. But unique to what other males were wearing. Than shaving my legs fully for over the year. I started wearing my hair longer and when I started would give the hairstylist a Keira knightly look. My mom says my hair makes me look like an artist, which prompts me to keep it. I dress in the really fun stuff only at home or if I go to the city by myself. Out of respect for my SO. Otherwise I'd push bounties even farther.

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Hey KelliT i think we are in exactly the same boat in terms of dressing! The funny thing is, i showed the keira knightly pic to my hairdresser tooo!!!

Which Keira Knightly pic are you trying to emulate with your hair? Right now my hair covers my ears and the front combed forward reaches the tip of my nose. anyway that's what I have to work with.

https://www.google.com/search?q=keir...w=1024&bih=631

So much angst over nothing! It's a sweater! Not coming down on you, Jennifer. It's just that this stuff kinda sets me off. I just don't get it. Never have. Everybody, me included, tries to find that line and nudge it, hoping to push it a little further back each time. That line is in your head. Of course, it's in your SO head, too, and everybody else's. It's absolutely impossible to define. Everybody's line is different with different things, different situations, different days even. The real line is anything that anyone would deem anything less than totally masculine. I remember hearing that there was even a male and female side to part your hair. I once bought a package of round cotton pads and the clerk asked surprised, "Are these for you?" I just recently heard a comment about a guy who was wearing eyeliner, but the female who commented clarifies, "but it's men's eyeliner"! Really! There's men's nail polish, men's cosmetics, men's skirts, men's earrings. There's no difference in it, it's just that some marketing person knows that for some people all you have to do is call it men's and that somehow makes it OK. By the same token, call it women's and people freak. It is unfathomable to me. I know I come from the total opposite side of the spectrum, but holy crap.

I have to live within some arbitrary boundaries, too, if I want to stay employed. I'm not saying I do as I wish all the time. I also hear some of the same comments everybody else does. I know the mindset is out there, it's just crazy to me. I was never taught that there was anything "wrong" with having long hair, or shaving your legs, or... a lot of things that people freak over. I learned that on my own.

My advice? Wear the sweater. Don't get hung up on such insignificant stuff. If someone pushes back to the point that it makes you uncomfortable to wear it again, then don't wear it again. Don't automatically assume you have to live so repressed.

Don't take this as a "I'm so much more free/out/evolved/better than you post. I've dealt with the same stupid crap, and as long as I continue to do this stuff I'll continue to have to deal with it on some level. Maybe it wasn't over a sweater, but I've dealt with things just as stupid.

Stepping down off my soapbox now.

Her pixie cut. Just as my hair started to grow. I would go to aloof art openings and every time be able to sport a new dew based off it.
That's where mine is now, great for stepping out but not sure where to go in guy mode. Right now in jax in sons of anarchy and Keith urban.

Joanna! What are you trying to do to me. A women's haircut is like porn to me.

Rhonda, respect your passion. I just recently moved from the cities of Boulder Denver, to a rural setting. Had some business to finish up today and tomorrow. Realized yesterday I left my Harley boots to wear. I did pack my wife's low cut BOC boots and wore those. Two inches higher and walking like i was In high heels. A coworker thought I was wearing cowboy boots since most of it covered. In the end no body cares, it's others insecurity that I am realizing is the problem.

You need to figure this out with your SO. You want to dress androgynously, but both of you are afraid of you being labeled a crossdresser. Obviously your SO likes you to be somewhat androgynous. So it is clear that you just need to decide where to draw the line. On a deeper level, you two have to decide is what's wrong with being a crossdresser.

Remember that the term crossdresser is largely self defined. So, for what it's worth, I suggest you wear what you want (or what you and your partner can agree on) and if someone calls you a crossdresser, you simply say, "no I am not, I just wear what I like".

If you and your partner are happy with your look, and it seems they don't care at work, there would be no problem. Remember too that your in laws probably share many opinions with your partner, most families do. So it is likely that they will shrug it off and say, " oh, that's just Jennifer, that's how S(he) dresses. No big deal."

Alana

Tell her you like a lot of feminine fashion, or whatever.

Hi Rhonda,

I am just as frustrated about it as you are, its just a sweater, it's just a cardigan, it's just a supertight skinny jeans... :)
But like today, bringing my daughter to school in a very tight skinny jeans, i just see people scanning my jeans,
so it is noticed and maybe i have to decide to just deal with that or don't wear it at all.

O and haircuts ARE porn, this will be my next one!

Attachment 232934

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Morgan

Hello there!

...
The androgynous outfits are satisfying my inner self most of the times
but sometimes i simply also want to wear 'that' beautiful longline cardigan on top of my skinny jeans and basic top because i just like it style wise.
and that's the point where my GF says, THAT VEST is a giveaway, especially to her sister or brother in law who are around very often.
...
But i explicitaly don't want to be seen as a cross dresser (nor does my girlfriend in any way),
I guess i just want to be seen as the guy with a large feminine side who happens to like a lot of women's things because.. it's who he is :)

Are there others feeling the same way?
What is your approach to it?
i am so interested!!!

X.
Jenn.

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This is close to my situation. I wear androgynous clothes that are almost all women's clothes. I can wear pretty much anything I like at home but my wife
is quite specific about what I can wear in public, at least in the tiny town in which we now live. She does say she looks forward to the day I can wear
dresses out in public with her. But she does have better taste than me even if I think her sense of propriety is a little excessive. She doesn't like me
wearing padded bras in public, for example and thinks my short shorts are too short. I point out that I was wearing short shorts when she met me
a quarter century ago but I accede to her about the bras.

I like to wear long tops over tights or bodysuits. I get a few glances, a few ma'ams and the occasional compliment but people care about the way I dress
less than I or my wife sometimes think. I get asked if I am a musician or an artist. I am an artist and that answer seems to satisfy the need that some people
have to explain the way I dress, and my make up.

I don't care if people think I'm gay. Most of my friends are gay so I think it is a compliment. I certainly don't care if people think I am transgender.
I would rather not be thought of as a cross dresser because all I'm doing, like you Jenn, is presenting myself the way that I feel, which is not really
feminine and not really masculine.

If you check out the fashion shows, particularly the London shows, you can see that androgynous clothing is something the designers would like
to promote. Why not? There is a vast profit to be made from persuading men and women to dress in gender neutral clothes. It's a whole new
category that I hope to see coming soon to my local mall - men's clothes, women's clothes, unisex, androgynous, gender neutral clothes.

As far as my wife and your girlfriend is concerned, they will get less and less sensitive to the gender policing of relatives, friends and the public
the more you wear tasteful and beautiful androgynous clothes. It just takes time and patience. I am so grateful for my wife's acceptance of
my being transgender that I am willing to wait.

This picture of me in 9th grade could be a hint

Attachment 233438

This is a "butch" picture

Attachment 233439

I am also somewhere in the middle. Most of my clothing is from the women's side, but the most feminine items are rarely worn outside the house. If I was braver I would wear skirts and more lace and frills in public, but not to appear as a woman. Rather, I would see myself as a man who happens to prefer more typically women's clothing and think it can look good on me. I have no interest in makeup or wigs.