Acceptance - We still have a long way to go

The other night I sat at a table of GG's who are senior leaders in an organization that publicly embraces diversity. The wine was flowing and, interestingly enough, somewhere along the way the conversation turned to a former employee who presented as female. I listened with great interest. In a not so flattering and certainly not accepting way they went on about how he "always acted like a girl." The banter continued regarding how he would "dress up" and come to work, and about a particular after hours function where he came in skirt and "all stuffed up top like he's got what they got . . ." Again, the conversation was one of disdain and disgust, and certainly not in keeping with genuine respect for diversity. These are people that can and do make decisions about a person fitness for employment.

Disappointing as it was, I share this as an example of the many times we see what is only a veneer of acceptance. Behind the curtain, my experience is that little of it is genuine. Because of this, I salute those here who brave enough to wade into the world dressed and confident. Though I am not among you, know that I cheer from the sidelines.

OK lets go for the sterotype answer and ask how many at the meeting were wearing shirt type blouses and trousers with flat heels ?
My wife experienced this at work when the conversation turned to a hospital porter who CDs where she works, she kept very quiet but the annoying thing was one of them was planning to volunteer as a Samaritan !!

MissTee, this is ignorance talking. I think people can understand on some level the 'born in the wrong' body scenario of a TS person, but a man choosing to remain an intact male while presenting as a woman is a puzzle to most 'muggles' as ya'll call us. The women you were talking to sound offended and even threatened by crossdressers. I'll admit, before I met my H, I would have probably felt this way, too. Until you understand the deep need behind it, it's easy to think a man is just mocking women by dressing this way. Remember, women are taught to be wary of men so it's little wonder there are women who dislike crossdressers. Are you disguising yourself as one of us so as to have easier access? Are you nuts? (and therefore, possibly dangerous?) Then there's the annoyance that crossdressers seem to adopt all the superficial, fun bits of being female and none of the bad. Why not wear a pregnancy suit and REALLY experience what we go through? Why is it all about heels and skirts and long hair? And yes, I have thought all this and more in the early days, until I understood how deep this can run and how it literally represents my H's sexuality. Reading here has also helped me understand those who dress to express an internal gender...so I'm not offended any more!

Public knowledge would help, but I doubt many here feel like sitting down and explaining all this, so the muggles will continue to feel puzzled and annoyed and you will continue to hear these negative comments. Just remember, there ARE GG's out there who have taken the time to listen and learn and we do support your right to be you x

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

I think people can understand on some level the 'born in the wrong' body scenario of a TS person, but a man choosing to remain an intact male while presenting as a woman is a puzzle to most 'muggles' as ya'll call us.

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Nah, most people don't understand transsexuals either. Most people don't understand a thing about any of this stuff. I've run into tons of gay guys who are surprised that:
1) we aren't drag queens
2) we aren't all attracted to men, or aren't gay men (actually a majority of us who are TS are lesbians)
3) that we live this way fulltime
4) that we're really women, not gay men

Hetero cross dressers really are a mystery to most people, though. Many gay guys I've talked with view the prospect of a straight guy in a dress as being a dubious proposition, at best.

@MissTee - You are in the Deep South. I'm in Texas. There are many in our areas who will never accept us for religious reasons. Sucks, but it is what it is.

Paula, I've also heard gay men are as puzzled about this as hetero folk. I guess they're so used to drag queens they just assume any man in a dress is the same? I do think TS can be explained to the muggles as a 'birth defect' or something along those lines and maybe someone will take notice and understand? But as you said, the hetero male crossdresser is a mystery to everyone, including himself! Maybe telling them it's a mild birth defect would help here, too?

Mind you, with the way the world is going, all this might be the last thing on anyone's mind. We'll be too busy dying of Ebola while someone tries to chop off our head! :(

Hi MissTee,

Unfortunately I find we tend to confuse people saying nothing with "acceptance" or "I passed" when in fact I would venture a guess it is more tolerance than acceptance. I hold no illusion that every person who shoots me a friendly smile, says nothing or is polite is thinking "now there goes a great person". In a lot of case they are only demonstrating the socially acceptable behavior of politeness. However, I posit that for every second smile, polite nod or no comment the internal dialogue can range from confusion all the way to disgust.

I also find that most (myself included) naturally assume women will be more receptive than men when it comes to understanding the urge to express a female identity. While it is likely women will be more tolerant and or more accepting they are still human and with that goes all the frailties of the human race "ignorance, prejudice, indifference, fear, confusion and so on". So it is not surprising that you will find women who hold this view of us. Also as Tink pointed out what we do is very confusing to those around us . . . I mean seriously why would a man want to dress like a woman . . . it makes no sense to those who do not live with it. When we don't understand things and are faced with it, sometimes we tend to default to behavior which can be misconstrued as mean spirited (e.g., making fun) when in fact it is just our way of dealing with something that makes not sense. That doesn't always mean those people are prejudice they just lack understanding.

This is precisely why I have chosen to come out at work. I have no desire to present female at work while in uniform but I have explained to my chain of command that I may choose to present female when civilian attire is authorized. I am doing this educate those around me that what I do, I do because I have to not because it is a fun thing to do or I am making fun of women. The more I discuss with colleagues the more they understand (I have found a lot of misconception out there). Does this mean I have automatic acceptance? Nope as I still get strange looks, some people go out their way to avoid me and I hear a snicker or two when I walk by a group (both men and women BTW). However, if I can educate one person and they go on to educate another and so on, perhaps tolerance will grow a bit more toward acceptance. Don't get me wrong, this is not me advocating all to come out at work, this was a personal choice of mine based on several reasons. It was not an easy decision and I have paid for it to some degree (loss of credibility to some, a bit of a joke to others, disgust from some) but, I have learned to live with it and for the most part it has ceased to bother me but I admit it still hurts sometimes.

Hugs

Isha

Unfortunately until others begin to appreciate who others are as people and their contributions and dedication to what they believe in, the surface acceptances will hold sway, especially with relation to "group think". Ask many of these folks individually and I'll bet you would get quite a different response. Peer pressure is alive and well and living in the 21st century. When the chips are down most will give in to the crowd or mob mentality.:)

Good points MissTee... I would expect that what you are seeing here is more the norm than the exception although one would anticipate more from people who are supposed to have a positive view of diversity - that is rather shocking in a way, but then I think GGs can sometimes also be drawn into 'pack' behaviour like men and it's tough to be a lone voice of compromise when everyone else is joining in the 'joke'.

I'm also convinced by Isha's observation that what many relate here as 'passing' is actually nothing more than tolerance - which is not a bad thing and perhaps something that we should be grateful of as an integral aspect of western society - but I'm thinking also that 'acceptance' and all it conveys, is perhaps too ambitious a target... or one shoots for acceptance but is happy if one is granted tolerance... :thinking:

Although this may not be obviously connected, the thread I started yesterday on 'Celebrity Lurkers' has brought out an unexpected trend for me... It is that most folk responding seem to accept that public figures would not come out because of the expected disgust and disdain and consequent impact on their careers. It strikes me that if the trend leaders of our society believe that there is such stigma attached to our condition that they would be unwilling to take a public position, then we stand little chance of gaining any ground towards greater acceptance and it justifies our continued presence under the LGBT banner as it doesn't look like anyone else will take us! :Angry3:

Almost makes me want to hang up my leggings and just play golf... almost.... ;)

Katey x

Sorry Katey don't believe your last comment ! Maybe play golf with the right attire, no doubt from the women's rack !!

I have to agree with you and Isha on the point about not entirely passing when out, Isha has found levels of acceptance with the odd grouse thrown in but no real drama now if you stay in safe areas !

My excuse now is my dog only recognises me in a skirt when out walking !

It seems to me that this post is yet another where the "hurting,closeted,CD" does NOTHING to bring the conversation around to a more educational theme. There is enough happening in the mainstream media these days about "T" people that it wouldn't out a person to their group by adding discussion starting like" I was reading the other day" or I saw "a show on television about Transgender people"...However,seems that you just sat there while their ignorance fueled the conversation..

I doubt if there ever will be acceptance even to extent the gay community has now reached. Tolerance maybe but that's all. Even that we can't take for granted. To me the western world is now generally lurching to the right and right wing conservatism is always intolerant of difference.
We might look back on this period and see it as almost a golden age. I'm not optimistic about the future.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

My excuse now is my dog only recognises me in a skirt when out walking!

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:rofl:
I think you are witnessing pretty typical human behavior. It seems as though human society has a need for a laughing stock, a scapegoat, someone who we can point to in front of others and say "I'm a murderous cannibal who abuses children, but at least I'm not THAT!", and we have been picked for the role because all the others, the different races, religions, sexual orientations and disabilities have been marked as politically incorrect to comment on. I really wonder who will come next after we become politically correct too.
Lenny Bruce used to have a routine about Norman Thomas (a perennial presidential candidate for the Socialist Party in the '50s [usually got ~1% of the vote]) waking up the day after the election and finding that he'd won; of course he'd never prepared for this eventuality so casting around for a platform "We'll integrate - oh, wait, that's already been done -I know, we'll discriminate! Who can we pick on -blacks - no. already done, Jews also done, besides there's too few left - wait -let me think - Midgets! .Their whole view of people is a crotch! Wait - I've got it - 'SLAP A MIDGET FOR NORM!' let me get my press & PR guys on the phone - this'll work!"

"Apres moi, le deluge!"

*Apparently gays weren't even considered.

Disclaimer:
My sincerest and most abject apologies to any Little People out there, but in order to present a close approximation of the gist of this routine, the above wording was necessary. It neither represents my opinions nor those of anyone in any way associated with this site.

I can accept being tolerated until people get to know me and see that i am not scary.

As long as I am tolerated, OK, because I accept me.
I will be a long time till we are accepted. But unless you
pass totally it will be a difference someone will always pick up on.
Smile and move on.

@Tinkerbell-GG - yeah, I try to explain being trans as an untreated childhood medical condition, much like my handicapped legs, although I received treatment for them. Mostly people view it as a choice, same as they view being gay. Usually I get congratulated when I tell them I'm transgender, as if saying that is a joyous life event, like telling the world your gay. (Hint: neither one is all that fun.)

Anyway, at the completion of "trans 101", I'm normally told "well good! as long as you are happy now!" :(

Ignorance is rampant in this country! And unless you are transgendered, gay, or a crossdresser, there really is little incentive to research those issues for most people.

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The other night I sat at a table of GG's who are senior leaders in an organization that publicly embraces diversity. The wine was flowing and, interestingly enough, somewhere along the way the conversation turned to a former employee who presented as female. I listened with great interest. In a not so flattering and certainly not accepting way they went on about how he "always acted like a girl." The banter continued regarding how he would "dress up" and come to work, and about a particular after hours function where he came in skirt and "all stuffed up top like he's got what they got . . ." Again, the conversation was one of disdain and disgust, and certainly not in keeping with genuine respect for diversity. These are people that can and do make decisions about a person fitness for employment.

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Many people embrace the "diversity" issue just because it is currently the thing to do. But they just talk the talk, and say what's politically correct, and believe none of it. This can especially be the case for community leaders and business types, who have an image to maintain.
In the case of employment, my old girlfriend had a rather crude expresssion, "You don't s##t where you eat"! Unless you are transitioning and need to prepare people around you for it, you will have a lot fewer problems if you keep your crossdressing and your employment separate. Your place of employment is no place for a crusade. Employers can fire you and get around discrimination laws fairly easily, if they lay the groundwork with several "poor performance reviews", or other cover. From a lifetime of crossdressing, I have found a little common sense goes a long way toward avoiding problems.

Those GGs are entitled to their opinion. We want people/society to be tolerant of us CDers? Then we MUST also be tolerant of THEIR views and opinions. I personally am NOT going to censor or try to change anyone's way of thinking simply because I'm offended by it or simply because I disagree with it.

Love,
Lexi V.

Lexivanderpump....There was a teaching opportunity that the OP passed on..A discussion on gender dysphoria might have changed their way of thinking...After all,it wasn't a Masonic Meetup,it was a "gender diversity friendly organization"...So there is little excuse for letting a teaching opportunity slip away.

@lexivanderpump - why should we tolerate ignorance and intolerant views. Not all views are equal. Should we tolerate someone who made racist statements? Would we hold their views to be equal to those of others?

"The wine was flowing and,..."

It's simply Human Nature and nothing more to succumb to groupthink. Adding alcohol to the mix only exacerbates the attitude making what you heard/witnessed irrelevant.

The REALITY of passing/dressing unconventionally is elegantly simple. No one can KNOW that they "passed as a woman". Regardless of how many times people here claim it. There are NO DOCUMENTED CASES of Humans being able to read the minds of other Humans. What's 100 times more likely is that they simply "passed" you/ignored you as just a fellow Human UNLESS of course you were acting the fool/dressed to attract attention and treated them badly. Or they thought you were a danger to them.

"Society" is not the enemy nor are they out out to bust CDers or anyone else. When they are not at their place of employment or at home, chances are good they are on a mission to buy something or at least shop and likely to be on their cellphones during much of it. They simply don't have the time or inclination to bust CDers. What would they gain from it?

For 42 years now at three different jobsites working with large groups of people, I have seen time and time and time again what happens when person X leaves the room. Within 5 seconds person X becomes fair game for all remaining. And we are not even talking about CDing here. What I have noticed is that the more unhappy people are with their own lives, the more likely they are to disparage others.

It's easy to get others in the RW to "pass" us. If one wants to get all bent out of shape over what others might THINK or tell others once out of earshot? That's one's CHOICE.

Really great feedback everyone, especially the pointing out of tolerant versus accepting. I shared the conversation in hopes it would lend to the decision support arsenal for those debating coming out or not. Another point to ponder if you would. Clearly, a smile, a nod, a seemingly friendly comment from someone we think is progressive may in reality be a shell response. The decisions influenced and made may indeed be opposite of what we're led to believe.

@Rogina - there was much more to the conversation than I posted. I provided a very condensed summary. I did ask what about his dressing so disturbed them, and I got a boatload of answers and many of them were in line with Tink's feedback. Remember I said the wine was flowing freely, and I do believe at that point group think had set in. It was clear to me the response would have been quite combative had I pressed the issue.

Besides, as I've said here many times before I am not an aggressive crusader of the cause, nor do I intend to be. I will inject supportingly as the situation and audience permits, but there are certain things I will simply not risk.

Miss Tee...You need not "risk anything" other than your thoughts ...There is so much discussion now in the mainstream media that discussing it doesn't "out" a person. As a trans rights activist here in NE Florida,I enjoy "mixing it up" with the opposition which can include "people who want the world to think they are cool,BUT really aren't"....Seems like a proper description of your group.. I feel that you could have better called them out on their viewpoint.

I would like to offer a different take on this. That is: people can simply be catty. While they may indeed be open and accepting to TG people, they might still express disparaging remarks about a TG person in particular. Substitute obese for TG. I think we all agree that we should be accepting and non judgmental about people's weight. Now, each of you think back ...ever privately make demeaning comments about another persons weight? Of course you have.

It's not a flattering reflection on ourselves, but the point is that we can be accepting in general and contradict that in personal conversations.

I have never personally seen or heard an incidence of trans* bashing, but I can easily believe your account MissTee. I can also appreciate your choice of response. I would probably have acted the same way.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Persons with intense insecurities often transform this into aggression towards others.

Oh well, some people want or need to live with their negative vibes spilling over on everyone else - good luck and see ya later.

Three cheers for those girls brave enough to step out and be themselves.

We do have a long way to go and I do wonder how well the subject of the discussion presented.
If he did not present well the girls will complain as it seems a slur on their own appearance.
Feedback I got if I presented well I got praise, if I looked a bit off one night someone who did not know me well always lambasted me.
I got this feedback because I did have supporters that kept me on the straight and narrow.
ie. Always presenting well.

What is likely our worst enemy when it comes to acceptance is the mainstream media. Most of which is on the liberal end of the spectrum. Yet, while liberal people claim to be on the accepting end of diversity among people, the truth is that they are not really any more accepting, they just like to say they are. In some ways, I almost like a social conservative better simply because if they are going to not like or accept something, at least they are not fake about it.

Too often liberals are great at the NIMBY concept. So long as it stays on the other side of the fence, they are fine with it. That is not really acceptance.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

Why not wear a pregnancy suit and REALLY experience what we go through? Why is it all about heels and skirts and long hair?

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Wow, Tink, I thought you would have 'got it' by now. Yes, there are guys who would be willing to go through pregnancy IF IT INCLUDED ALL THE REST OF WHAT A WOMAN'S LIFE IS. Lots of us would be perfectly willing to take the bad with the good. My ex had asked me the same question, why we seem to only want the good parts of being a girl. Really? Why would anyone lust after things that are painful or feel bad? Insanity maybe?
After all, when I hear women complain that they don't get to play all the mens sports, I don't hear any asking to get paralyzed by getting straightarmed in football, get knocked senseless by constantly being overmatched in boxing, folded into a pretzel by the older stronger boy in wrestling, or being run over by a tank while in the armed forces. Let's face it, people envy others for the GOOD, enjoyable parts of their lives we see. I HAVE heard women who have gone out for sports that turn out to be quite underwhelmed by the experience when they find out that they don't 'get to' win automatically a certain percentage of the time (Losing all the time is no fun either). Women take turns with each other in lots of things; when you discover that men's lives don't work the same way, it can be quite demoralizing. Please consider this scenario: Girl sees boys going to learn boxing, likes the idea. Joins gym. Isn't good at it, there are girls there who are far more experienced and stronger, so she loses all her matches getting quite beat up every time. How long do you think she will keep going? However, boys don't have this choice; we are stuck with competing with other boys who are better at sports than we are, whether we like it or not. We don't get a free pass from phys-ed class just because we're not good at something, nope, we have to go there and lose. Over and over and over, through out our entire school experience. That's 18 years of losing. Think about how you'd like to be that boy, someone unathletic, bullied and physically pushed around in sports for EIGHTEEN YEARS. Think that would be fun? Hmm, probably not.
Heels, skirts, long hair, each finds certain things about a woman to be attractive, so when we want to appear feminine, those are the things we will choose to emphasize. As I've mentioned many times before, I don't think there are a lot of men who would work hard to become a middle aged, overweight, ugly, frumpy woman with bad hair, assymetrical facial features, a bad complexion, hump back, flat chest, pot belly, and a sagging butt. I don't think any women want that either, so why should we?
While I, personally, don't enjoy wearing heels (mostly because I never had a pair that fit me until my knees were too far gone to wear them without pain anyway), I understand why some do.

There are some really mean people out there (when it comes to CD's), and the worse are, in my opinion, women.

We may never be accepted, but we can certainly be tolerated. And you're right. The only way to get there is to venture out into the world and show our faces. Keeping in mind, that the more passable we can be, the better we blend in, the more success we will have.

The reason I say is that we may never be accepted is because I believe that the reality is that society hasn't changed much. There's sill prejudice and bias towards minorities. In general people want to stay with their own kind. How do I know this? Have you ever seen or heard of a white family from suburbia moving into a ghetto?? Not going to happen. While they might pretend to be diverse and accepting of all, deep down inside, maybe everyone is biased. And it gets better.

There's all kinds of bias these days. A lot of people who are younger than me, and especially minorities assume that because I'm over 50 and white, that I'm a racist, conservative or narrow minded, or just don't understand. I've had people just about accuse me of being a racist, simply because I was a registered Republican. I changed my party affiliation to independent, not only because of that, but other reasons. And don't even get me started about people who claim to be Christians. A lot of people who consider themselves Christians will look down on you simply because they believe their interpenetration of the Bible allows them to be judgmental of everyone who doesn't share their perspective.

I'm often tempted to spill the beans with people like this and not just about the fact that I like to wear women's clothes. I feel like saying, "You know what? I was a Democrat until I got tired of drinking the liberal cool aid, then changed to Republican, but became an independent after I found out that they don't have a clue. So yeah, I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm a Christian that believes in reincarnation and life on other planets. I think people are terrorized by religion, politicians and news media and the government could shut its doors and it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. To sum it up, I also think prostitution, marijuana and other recreational drugs should be legal. And I think the worldwide age of consent should be something like 14, like it is in Canada. And by the way, I like to wear women's clothes. You might have seen me at the movies or the mall."

That's the reality. So to get to a point where cross dressing is considered mainstream and acceptance, we have to get beyond all the bias, prejudice and narrow-mindedness that's keeping our society from evolving.

Miss tea; I understand where you are coming from as much as I would like to come out I can't I would lose too much. I have heard from a school teacher about a young girl born male but in the process of transitioning to a female as to whether she should able to use the girl restroom or not while in school. The so called teacher was going on that young people couldn't tell if they were a boy because this one gave the impression of being all female. That parents should have made this young person go on with what her birth sex was not that she might have commit suicide if she continue to be a boy when her mind is telling her she is female. Some or most people don't look at the big picture only a snap shot. Be willing to bet the woman in the meeting were wearing slacks.

Once again, thanks to all for the feedback. From what I know of senior organizational leaders (which is quite a lot) they set the tone of acceptance. If they are not there in belief, the organization will not be. Their bais' can be changed, but it is a matter of timing and careful, deliberate influence. Taking a radical stance and being confrontational only labels one as an extremist. Funny thing is, the line where passion ends and extremism begins is a matter of perspective. I try to read that, and use diplomacy versus high explosives.

So,Miss Tee,what have you done toward helping your friends realize that perhaps they are not looking at" transgenderism" in the way that they could? You must have contact with these people individually on a regular basis and I hope you tell each one of them that their drunken group discussion bothered you...because it did or you would not have made your post...You will feel better for trying to educate them toward change..and it won't "out" you!

[QUOTE=sometimes_miss;3604924 we are stuck with competing with other boys who are better at sports than we are, whether we like it or not. We don't get a free pass from phys-ed class just because we're not good at something, nope, we have to go there and lose. Over and over and over, through out our entire school experience. That's 18 years of losing. Think about how you'd like to be that boy, someone unathletic, bullied and physically pushed around in sports for EIGHTEEN YEARS. Think that would be fun? Hmm, probably not. [/QUOTE]

I only had, I think, 5 or 6 years of gym class the last year of which I refused to attend. There were no consequences of my refusal either. Never once did we box, wrestle, play (American) football or any other overtly dangerous or humiliating sport. I remember a lot of jumping jacks though. In 7th grade I went to one football practice because I thought it would make my dad happy and promptly decided he could just find his own happiness, thank you! At one high school I attended you had to "play" a "sport". My "sport" was the outdoor club during fall and spring and ski club in the winter, it was pretty cool actually, oh and co-ed.

I find it puzzling that societies "lack of acceptance" comes up so often here on this side of the forum considering most CDs are closeted, who cares? This topic does not come up very often over on the TS side.

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Originally Posted by CherylFlint

There are some really mean people out there (when it comes to CD's), and the worse are, in my opinion, women.

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I am finding that the meaner the person is and how much they lash out and hurt others....well that is just a reflection of themselves and where they are in their life and accepting and loving themselves currently. Its not about us at all but about their own state of mind or ignorance.

Wasn't it just trash talk, Miss tee? Sure it highlights that Transgendered people are the current subjects of gossip and discrimination but go back 5 years and the person would have been gay, go back 25 years and the person would have been black. You would have seen the same disgust, the same disdain, the same generalizations. It is just the way that people who do not know how to be friendly and intimate as mature human beings behave. They select an Other and dump on them. It is a tired and tested way of developing a spurious feeling of community.

You have really few options in a situation like this. Shut up and seethe or state, at the risk of sounding prissy and judgmental that you don't see why dumping on the transgendered is any more acceptable than trash talking about gays or people of another race. Neither option is pleasant. Perhaps the best option is to stand up, state that the conversation is making you feel uncomfortable, and leave. Depending on your group they will either recognize they've crossed a line or they will double down on their discrimination. Since these were older women I'd guess the latter.

I love to mess with bigots. Unfortunately people seem to be wary saying idiotic things around me. My SO won't put up with it for 5 seconds. I am kinder than she is. She tells them flat out they're wrong. I try to lead them to an understanding of how wrong they are.