First time to a support group - Disappointing

I went to an open house at a support group. It was the first time I went to any sort of gathering with other crossdressers. I sent a note ahead of time and mentioned that I have a beard. "You would be unusual, but I think everyone would be accepting". When I got to the meeting there was one person "femulating" (in jeans) and and two folks in drab. When the one who was dressed said there was a changing room if I wanted to change (I brought a bag with my clothes and breastforms) I asked, out of courtesy, if the beard would bother anyone. One of the drab "gurls" said (rather gruffly) "Only this one time". Well that sounded like my wife when I want do dress when the kids are gone for the day. I could not have possibly been comfortable dressed up at that point, I did not come there to be "elephant in the room". So I sat and chatted with the three of them for a little while (out of courtesy) and went back to my motel room, where I could be comfortable (and alone) dressed up.

I feel like starting a club for "Crossdressers" - guys who like to wear woman's clothing (including the ones who can't or don't want to try to pass).

I did enjoy a drive though and some shopping skirted (a long kilt to conceal the hosiery and lingerie I was wearing underneath ) - as a guy.

It always good to hear someone's point of view on support groups, I have been thinking of looking for one in my city, but always don't know what to expect. Thanks.

I'm sorry for your experience Anne.. :hugs:

I'm struggling with how that comprises 'support' in anyone's world...??!?! Especially with the majority being in drab as well... :confused:

The nature of a support group should not be about passing or not... or am I just being old-fashioned? Speaking as someone who does dress to emulate, I personally would not have any issues with anyone dressed however they felt comfortable attending a support group. I think they're missing something, but perhaps just consider it their loss of diversity and a companionable soul... :)

How rude, unsupportive and unaccepting!

Katey x

Anne,
Sorry it went badly for you, I'm sure you'll find other groups friendlier if you need to get out for support !
The issue of the beard is a tricky one, some previous threads have dealt with the subject. Some say it's your body present it as you choose, others say beards are incompatible with presenting female .
I see it as it confusing people, you want to dress and present female and yet you want to appear macho with a beard ! The general public are going to be confused by your message and some CDers are going to take exception to it for undermining their attempts to want to pass as female, when you look as if you're taking the **** !
Sorry I'm biased, I didn't get on with my father and he hid his aggression behind his beard !! Maybe the member who made the comment had the same experience !

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Anne,
Sorry it went badly for you, I'm sure you'll find other groups friendlier if you need to get out for support !
The issue of the beard is a tricky one, some previous threads have dealt with the subject. Some say it's your body present it as you choose, others say beards are incompatible with presenting female .

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But "crossdressing" means dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex, not "presenting female" when you're really a male.

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I see it as it confusing people, you want to dress and present female and yet you want to appear macho with a beard !

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I don't wear a beard to look macho (and not every guy wearing a beard does so to look macho) and I would shave it off if my wife was agreeable to my doing so. I want to wear female clothing and sometime emulate a female to whatever degree I can.

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The general public are going to be confused by your message and some CDers are going to take exception to it for undermining their attempts to want to pass as female, when you look as if you're taking the **** !

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That was the funny thing. I felt more comfortable on my trip as a guy in a skirt in the general public than as a bearded crossdresser at a crossdressers' club. And you lost me on "as if you're taking the **** ".

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Sorry I'm biased, I didn't get on with my father and he hid his aggression behind his beard !!

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I'm not your father.

Anne,
My reply was not meant to be offensive only trying to make the point that others have encountered problems when dressed with a beard !It's a confusing message, the public struggle with CDers but presenting with a beard is just too confusing !
MM had a problem and made the point that's how he wanted to be accepted , take it or leave it ! If you have to go out and defend yourself like that is it worth it ?
Some Cders do take exception when they have spent so much time and money to pass and someone comes along in a dress with a beard , they will ask are you taking the mickey!! I don't agree with that but surely you can see the point !

No I know your not my father, he's dead now !!

I never had luck with support groups, I never fit in, I found one other transgender friends met for lunch endrab, grew along with them joined them gong out eventually, just a friend for support, also getting a therapist just to talk to was VERY important

hi anne,
there is support, i started this after a member made a comment about someones beard,

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...sser-dang-rant
the support was here, this is the other thread Teresa mentioned....

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...fortable/page2

so im glad you felt good about yourself while out shopping, presently im sporting a beard and have tried on clothes in the stores in male mode, (have a thread in photo section)
sometimes you just have to be yourself.....

Too bad about the support group. Theyre not for everyone (myself included), and seem to have more than their fair share of people with issues as members. Hopefully a different type of group will work better for you.

I had a hard time getting the folks in my group to do outings or anything so I left to develop on my own. I've never regretted that decision. Groups are good in that they help to break the ice and there is safety in numbers but bad in the sense of addressing the needs of the individual. In the end you are basically left on your own anyway. Progress is really up to us. :)

Just what is a "support group"? A bunch of people to tell you you look hot or tell you "poor baby" when you talk about your problems?

I've never been to a support group and I wouldn't go if I knew of one. I don't feel like I need support, I can handle life on my own.

Now as for your experience with this group, you found out that some people don't like to see a guy dressed as a woman but with a beard. The classic "dude in a dress". Well, there are people like that. Just because someone staps on a pair of boobs and a wig doesn't change their feelings.

You learned something that night. Move on and put the experience behind you.

Showing up with beard and skirt at a support group should be OK. Although it would be a bit shocking to the majority that are attempting to pass, you should be accepted with open arms. However, if members of the group decided to go out somewhere, a bearded CD in the group would draw too much negative attention IMO.

I gave up on support groups a long time ago. Why? Because I found that most of them are not as open and accepting as you would think they would be (especially for a group of guys who like to dress like women!). In my experience, while there may be one or two people that are supportive, once you get the group dynamics going, then you have the same politics, the same cliques, the same type of backstabbing that goes on in any other group, which was just not what I was looking for. So instead, I would suggest trying to connect with one person that you got along with, build up that relationship and then perhaps over time expand your circle of friends. This way, you end up building your own support group and don't have to be subject to the rules and whims of a more formal organization.

Blanket statements about support groups is like blanket statements about CDers. Once we say “all” or "most" or infer that they are all similar, the statement becomes invalid.

Groups like CDers vary widely in their intentions. I have attended a few groups. I found them to be quite different from each other. Some were supportive and run by kind and compassionate people. Others were more a beauty contest.

Our Group, “The Grand Illusions” should not be thrown in the laundry nor should the other groups. We have a monthly get together we call our OUTing. This is for those who are “passable” for a reason. If you are going OUT Enfemme then you should attempt to be the best presentation that nature and finances allow. Now I am no beauty queen and most of my wardrobe comes from GWs, but that does not preclude me from being “passable”. I just have to present appropriately and do a decent job. Some of the other girls in our Group were blessed by genes with more easily brought out feminine features so they can get ready faster and look more realistic when they are finished. Some are pretty, some are not. But all are believable to some extent, not obviously a guy in a dress. This “pass”ability is more a safety issue than an appearance one. If it was not, most of us wouldn’t bother with all the work to do the best we can. But by “passing” we cause enough doubt that the person passing buy loses interest in the usual 6.942 seconds that they can stay away from their texting. Before they can break away from the next text, they have already lost interest in us. If we go OUT like a pipe fitter in a dress then there is no doubt and the casual observer can make a decision and react with certainty. Give them some doubt and they typically choose to not take the risk or bother.

Our Group also has an IN meeting each month. This is for those who can not “pass”, those who will not go OUT Enfemme, those who do not desire to “pass” or go OUT, newbies, and CDers still in the closet. It is also attended by CDers who can pass. Like the OUT event, we have places for them to transform if they need to arrive and/or depart in guy mode. We frequently get new people who arrive in tears. They are tears of joy to finally find a place where they are accepted. I have had to hold weeping CDers and tell them that this is not bank robbing, we are not perverts. We do provide understanding, compassion, a place to be comfortable, a place other than home to be enfemme, and acceptance. The meeting is very informal. Mostly a gab session. We share methods, experiences, and shopping tips. There is no pecking order other than who got the coolest shoes or outfit for the least piece at which thrift store. Yes some better off girls do buy expensive dresses and wigs and shoes. But the emphasis is not on who has the biggest budget. It is on the fun and camaraderie. Because we all need each other regardless of genes or wealth. And we do have guys come with beards. That is exactly what the IN meeting is about, acceptance and a safe place for those who do not “pass”. There is no hierarchy.

So groups are not all created equal. Like people. So let’s not lump them all together. You are doing a disservice to those reading these threads if you post negative comments as applying to all groups. If you cause someone to not find the comfort or help they need, then their unnecessary sadness is on your shoulders. I try to keep my posts and threads positive, my CDing presence positive, because I want to help other CDers to be free of the negativity that society places on what we do.

If you can’t find a group like you want, start one. That is the beauty of these United States. We can do that. I did it.

I am having SUCH FUN with this! And privileged to be helping others too!

http://www.crossdressersmichigan.com

Anne, I never had as much guts as you! I used to use my beard as a way to help me suppress my urge to CD, because it almost forced me to stay indoors. But we are all different. I can understand why a group of CDs who are out together and expecting/hoping to blend might not welcome you, but I can't see any justification for that reaction at a support group.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

Just what is a "support group"? A bunch of people to tell you you look hot or tell you "poor baby" when you talk about your problems?

I've never been to a support group and I wouldn't go if I knew of one. I don't feel like I need support, I can handle life on my own....

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Again, we are all different. I joined a face-to-face support group for exactly the same reason as I joined this on-line support group -- because I needed help in understanding and coming to terms with CDing and advice about "coming out" from others who had trod that path before me.
I found both groups welcoming and helpful.

I have never had the urge to go to a CD support group or even to meet up with others from here. I want to be out and about when I dress not in a private meeting discussing why we can't be out and about. I also think that 2 CD'ers will attract more attention than just me trying to blend.

You have to take TG support groups on a case by case basis.
I have been to meetings for three very different ones in my life and here is how that went -

One of them everyone was cool but the hostess was kind of a pain in the butt.
One of them seemed very much like a clique. Felt alone in a crowded room. Never again to meet them.
One of them doesn't judge anyone and doesn't mind how anyone cares to dress. Come as you are.

For the CD's who do not get to do this very much and who have to hide, I can imagine it pretty much bites to find a TG group and think, "Alright! A group for people like myself, finally get to dress and not have to hide!" but then find out the group is some clique with weird standards.

You shouldn't just write off all TG groups as being the way you saw. It is also possible that you had the misfortune of talking to the group's PITA, every circle has one. Even the better TG groups have that one member who is just a snide-ass.

I think you are wonderful to be so thoughtful of your wife.

I adore a "macho" man.
I've always seen myself as exaggerated femininity, so I appreciate masculinity.
I like to nestle into a broad hairy chest, the caress of soft whiskers on my cheek and feel the strength of a man.

I never had a problem with the panties and nighties everyday, it made him happy and I loved him, so of course I wanted him to feel happy and be cozy and comfortable.

I think you have a handle on this, that most women could live with.
You defend yourself as masculine as much as feminine.

I'm lucky... in my city there is a great transgender group, but I wouldn't call it a support group. It's more like a social group. We have monthly potluck suppers with usually 20-30 attendees, monthly dinner outings at restaurants with anywhere from 3-15 attendees and a really excellent Christmas party.

Like some others, I don't really need support, but I do like going out en femme and having a good time, and I like meeting other trans people in a social situation. Maybe the original poster needs to keep looking for a group more like that.

And who in the “The Grand Illusions” is the arbitrator of who passes, and who doesn't pass. I think that is what we are talking about, "judgmental". If you want to play on a team, you have to follow the team rules, some groups only allow heterosexuals, some groups insist everyone dress, others don't care. Then there are groups like The Grand Illusions that don't want to be seen in public with you unless you meet their standards of appearance, and that is why so many of us have never belonged to a support group, I want support for my needs, not the groups needs.

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Originally Posted by Tina B.

And who in the “The Grand Illusions” is the arbitrator of who passes, and who doesn't pass. I think that is what we are talking about, "judgmental". If you want to play on a team, you have to follow the team rules, some groups only allow heterosexuals, some groups insist everyone dress, others don't care. Then there are groups like The Grand Illusions that don't want to be seen in public with you unless you meet their standards of appearance, and that is why so many of us have never belonged to a support group, I want support for my needs, not the groups needs.

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Tina B.
You make a statement that we do not want to be seen in public with whatever. And you accuse me of being the arbitrator. Both with no data to back it up. You are SO wrong!

We do not have to decide who can “pass”, the individuals decide for themselves if they pass. All but one anyway. They know their comfort level and abilities to pass, or they underestimate their ability to pass. So the opposite of your accusation is true.

I find the regular members to be kind, compassionate, encouraging, welcoming, helpful, inclusive, and understanding. All characteristics I wish were in greater supply everywhere CDers go to find support from each other.

We spend NO time having to tell anyone they do not pass, other than the one glaring exception. The only person I had to convince that he was not "passable" was the guy that showed up at his first OUTing. He was complete with a white FuManchu beard with beads braided in and sheer panties which he was flashing at everyone. This was his first and last OUTing with The Group. Nothing like this has happened before or since.

But I do understand your assuming the worst and passing judgment with no data to back it up. That seems to be the trend now days. It would have been more ladylike to ASK how we handled things than to assume the worst and make a false statement (Not wanting to be seen in public....) as information coming from me. Assuming the worst, did you become the arbitrator yourself? We are all dealing with fragile souls here, we should be kind to each other, not judgmental. Kindness is how we deal with any problems in The Group. Someday someone else will be the Facilitator and I hope to leave an atmosphere of compassion and kindness that seems to be sorely lacking elsewhere.

No we do not have to tell anyone they do not pass. With one glaring exception.

I try to be positive and helpful in my posts and threads but I gotta tell you, these kinds of accusations, misquotes, and saying things were said that are not the case sure makes me wonder why I try.

I am STILL having so much fun WITH THE GROUP! So THERE!
Billie

The interview for my group stated no hair, or covered hair. That is this groups policy.
Did your group advise you before hand? If a group has a set policy, the individual must decide
if they want to join.
Glad you had a good outing anyway.

I agree with Groucho Marx. I don't want to belong to any club that would accept people like me as a member.

This was an "open House". I wasn't looking to join the group or go out on the town dressed like Conchita Wurst in the tow of a bunch of "passable" trannies.

The group's website declares:

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"Stop by for our Tuesday Open House for face to face chat, free munchies, and a relaxed environment to get to know others in low-key, no pressure, transgender friendly environment.

Come en femme or simply dressed as a guy.

We have a dressing room and you are very welcome to bring your things and dress there. Or stay dressed as a guy. It’s all fine by us as all of us have started in the same place! We are very informal and mostly sit around talking with soft drinks."

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The group sponsors an event every year. I had a mind to go, but I'd probably feel more comfortable in a skirt at the local sports bar.

how ironic...

groups of people who the mainstream consider to be dressing unacceptably declare others who come to them to be Doing It Wrong / not following the RULES or expectations!

can they not see how stupid that is / how out of it they are?


bless the ones with beards

they're the ones that are REALLY putting themselves out there / being brave

they are the ones that are going to make the change!


i'll do what I want! whatever!

hehe!

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Anne,
My reply was not meant to be offensive only trying to make the point that others have encountered problems when dressed with a beard !It's a confusing message, the public struggle with CDers but presenting with a beard is just too confusing !

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If you can pass what do you care about a guy with a beard in a dress? What confusion if you are passing? If you can really pass then you can join in the derisive dismissal of crossdressers who just like to wear woman's clothing.

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MM had a problem and made the point that's how he wanted to be accepted , take it or leave it ! If you have to go out and defend yourself like that is it worth it ?

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Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

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Some Cders do take exception when they have spent so much time and money to pass and someone comes along in a dress with a beard , they will ask are you taking the mickey!! I don't agree with that but surely you can see the point !

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Yes. Some crossdressers simply must accept the intolerance of the "the community" - for the better good.

these groups or communities are going against the norm... counter culture if you will

but they too are hippo crits and un-nice to those that don't conform

thus we have the people that must COUNTER the counter culture!


the outsiders among the outsiders!

eyah

Well, you did ask if the beard would be OK right? If you ever go to another meeting don't say anything about the beard. Don't ask if it's alright, just show up as yourself and sit back and watch what kind of reactions you get. Think of it as a social experiment. Let the beard be offensive to thost that find it offensive and don't let others' reactions make you feel inadequate.

Our Group, “The Grand Illusions” should not be thrown in the laundry nor should the other groups. We have a monthly get together we call our OUTing. This is for those who are “passable” for a reason. If you are going OUT Enfemme then you should attempt to be the best presentation that nature and finances allow. Now I am no beauty queen and most of my wardrobe comes from GWs, but that does not preclude me from being “passable”. I just have to present appropriately and do a decent job. Some of the other girls in our Group were blessed by genes with more easily brought out feminine features so they can get ready faster and look more realistic when they are finished. Some are pretty, some are not. But all are believable to some extent, not obviously a guy in a dress. Your words Billie, not mine. You see, youi do not have tolerance for a guy in a dress, and as far as safety, I thought though that was found in numbers.

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Originally Posted by BillieAnneJean

Tina B.
You make a statement that we do not want to be seen in public with whatever. And you accuse me of being the arbitrator. Both with no data to back it up. You are SO wrong!

We do not have to decide who can “pass”, the individuals decide for themselves if they pass. All but one anyway. They know their comfort level and abilities to pass, or they underestimate their ability to pass. So the opposite of your accusation is true.

....

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... Clearly some spirited opinion as to what the nature of support groups should be - however...

Please keep to the subject OP if you can - of course you are entitled to express an opinion as to other, subsequent posts and comments where relevant, but please keep it non-personal.. and no gouging, biting, hair-pulling, etc...

Or else... :hwac:

Thanks peeps... :D

Katey
Moderator

Anne,
All groups are not created the same. As in this forum, we should all be kind, accepting, understanding, and supportive. Unfortunately as CDers we all end up with scars that we do not deserve.
To not accept anyone enfemme at any IN meeting is inexcusable provided that the group has not made a guideline readily available of what they expect.
To not accept anyone enfemme at any OUT meeting is also inexcusable provided that group has not made a guideline readily available of what they expect.
The Group I belong to has guidelines readily available and on our website.
It is like this: Imagine you have a friend who likes to yell, it is his statement, you are going to a meeting of mimes. You advise him that his yelling will not be appropriate there.
Or imagine that you are going to a football game and your friend wants to join you. You have no reservations because that is the purpose of the fans going to the game, to cheer and yell. Your friend will not feel rejected by your help. But if he went to the meeting of the mimes and started yelling, making his statement, at an event obviously geared to quiet communication, he would really feel uncomfortable there. Unless he was clueless.
So too it is with the IN meeting which one would assume is for anyone in any level of dressing. And the OUTing is for anyone who can go unnoticed, commonly referred to as "passing".
As for administrating this IN/OUTing/passing thing, it should be done with compassion and encouragement not anything like making someone feel rejected.
You would never feel this way at The Group I belong to.
Billie

Most CDers struggle with societal acceptance. People in general look askance at men who wear dresses, and I believe that if a man also has a beard it serves to accentuate the difference between his sex and the clothes that he chooses to wear if the clothes are obviously feminine. I'm not talking about gender neutral clothing purchased in women's departments. So most CDers try to hide or mask as many male gender cues as they can (including a beard) for two reasons: one, to reduce the visual conflict of being an obvious male in women's clothes in other people's eyes and two, hopefully to gain more acceptance by doing so.

This is why, I believe, many CDers feel queasy with the idea of a man in a beard who goes out in public wearing women's clothing. They are projecting their own need for acceptance and their own desire to conform to societal expectations of how men and women should present, because they want to reduce the visual conflict for other people as much as possible.

I don't want to be hurtful by reminding everyone of this, but it wasn't too many generations ago that "the bearded lady" was an attraction in the carnival show. The idea that women have beards or that people who look like men should present as a woman was a sensation. I know that we've moved beyond that in our modern society. I think that most people are aware there are crossdressers and transsexuals, although many people still don't know the difference between the two, but when faced with mixed gender cues people still react with deeply-rooted gut instincts as they perceive that something doesn't mesh. Most of us are raised among people who are either men or women and not a mixture of both, and so it's a question of feeling comfortable with what is deeply familiar.

That said, I don't see why you should NOT be fully accepted in a private TG meeting group. As far as I can tell, you were not out in public? Also, when you did go out in public you took care to conceal the women's clothes you were wearing and you presented as a man. The long kilt you wore might have been a little on the edge for men's clothes, but men do wear kilts so I'm guessing that your appearance would not have screamed traditional "crossdresser".

I think it's a good idea to start a club for men who do not want to hide their male gender cues and who want to wear women's clothes. I don't think this forms the bulk of the CDing community, but you might find a few in your area. But the other potential members may be like you in that they might be reluctant to go out in public wearing dresses. I think that most crossdressers sense that doing this garners a lot of attention for the reasons mentioned above.





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This is tangential to the discussion:

Sorry for the long post, but things are different for younger people. We have a young CDer (or genderqeer person) in our area who goes out with wild purple extensions in his very long black hair, who wears makeup, high heels, and women's clothing that are decidedly feminine but rocker-chick type. People in our area just accept him. My SO, who is in her 50s asked me once why I though this young CDer could get away with wearing makeup and heels. I responded that people in general are much quicker to forgive young people for going outside the norms. Hippies did it in the 60s, punk-rockers and goths did it in following generations, and most people I think just put it down to youthful exploration that will eventually subside when these young people finds jobs in areas where they will need to conform. A fifty year-old man (with a corresponding body) would not be able to get away with it, just as a 65 year old woman cannot get away with wearing the clubbing clothes that her grand-daughter wears.

Anne,
I accept that you are someone that want's to go half way and there are a lot of others in that situation.
A group for people like you would work well as there are a lot of dressers who prefer the full feminine look and never the twain shall meet.
I do feel that way myself but I have an open mind on these things and for whatever reason there needs to be a facility for others such as yourself.
Find another support group that caters for someone like yourself, it can be like AA there is an eclectic mix of people all at different stages of their lives trying to form a straight line and be the same.

It does not work.

Long ago, fairly early in my own cding experience, I spent a weekend at the Habana in OKC and it was a weekend of several firsts for me -- first real road trip en femme, first gurl weekend, first gay hotel, etc. I ran into a group of local gurls out for the evening at the club, and for some reason they were all wearing formal gowns, fancy hairdos, etc. I was dressed clubby and was still nervous as a cat on a tin roof those days. Most of the gurls were not overly friendly -- in fact, the only one that really was sported a full beard, referred to herself as the bearded lady of OKC. I appreciated her taking the time to talk and stuff, and I liked her, but I have to admit, the beard + that getup was just, I dunno, surreal. Weird, actually, and it was hard not to stare.

I didn't get it, still don't, but it never occurred to me judge her -- hell, she was probably a lot more experienced than I was and definitely had nicer clothes than I did -- and it didn't make me at all uncomfortable sitting with her talking there in the club. If we lived nearer I would have no problem with being friends and stuff, but I have to admit, there are some places I would not go with her, even now. No way I would walk into a mainstream store or restaurant with her. It's just too much of a jolt, too eccentric and draws too much attention. And even within the more tolerant gay community, it takes so much time, effort and patience to make friends and train people to perceive and accept you as a femme person, the beard thing would sort of be shouting out the "dudes in dresses" message and wear on me over the long haul, I think. As a member of a group, whether at a support group meeting or clubbing, yeah, I can handle that, but as two gurls out on the town, not optimum for me. No offense intended.

Anne,
I do not know if the group you attended has any publicly available guidelines for what they consider acceptable. So I just thought I would post how the group I attend handles appearance for our IN meetings and for our OUTings. These are part of our FAQs on our website so we are not keeping any secrets. If you can find something like this for that other group, you can compare. If they do not have anything then maybe you could help them by sending a note about how you felt rejected along with these FAQs from our group, provided you feel that these FAQs have any merit. From our FAQs:

"What is the difference between an IN meeting and an OUTing?

The IN meetings are mostly a gab session. Discussion tends to place greater importance on putting together an outfit from resale than who spent the most. There is no pecking order based on appearance or wardrobe. All are equal and all are welcome. More experienced girls freely share tips for anyone requesting. Occasionally someone will be experiencing family or life pressures and in need of compassion, a good listener, or just a hug. We are there to support each other. We usually order takeout. Almost always pizza. Now and then we do a makeover and mini photoshoot for any member desiring it. It is about acceptance, friendship, support, privacy, freedom, and self expression. It is NOT a beauty contest. This event is for CDers who have never been OUT enfemme, those who will not go OUT enfemme, newbies. The IN meeting is a relaxed setting where you can be yourself and not worry about how good you look or if anyone is going to notice facial hair. The only requirement for CDers is that they must present as female. That means they must wear women's clothing, feminine shoes, feminine hair. Forms and some kind of makeup like lipstick also are nice but not absolutely necessary. You need to put at least a little effort in to it so we are all on the same page - more or less. This is for CDers only, no SOs please. You can not experience this at your computer. Join us!

"Do I have to be pretty, as pretty as XYZ girl, or beautiful to go on an OUTing?
No you do not have to be a supermodel to go on an OUTing. If you look at the population of typical women, they range from beautiful to definitely not blessed. The same applies to CDers. Actually having a diverse group of CDers OUT together helps us to project the image of a group of regular gals. You should be passable to some extent but again, this is not a beauty contest. That means no obvious exposed body hair and no facial hair. You should have long hair, a feminine short do, or a wig, makeup as appropriate, appropriate women’s clothing, appropriate shoes, bling, a purse. You should make some effort to walk in a feminine manner, posture should be feminine, and so should your gait. You should have a feminine voice or use a whisper. All of these can be honed to a fantastic level of realism, or a newbie’s level. But you can not just throw on a dress and show up, without standing out like a guy in a dress. We suggest that if you are in doubt, attend an IN meeting first for guidance and help. We have been having a LOT of fun at out OUTings, and our IN meetings. You can not experience this at your computer. Join us!"

We have had good experiences with this model. We have been providing a safe haven for nearly two years now. Since the beginning, the only complaint from anyone attending the meetings is from one person with a beard that wants to be included in the OUTings. That is an invitation for interaction with anyone looking for a fight. That individual has had some issues when OUT "enfemme" before while alone. Why should those incidents be forced on a group of CDers of which all are trying to go ignored?

The group you attended missed an opportunity when you felt unwelcome at their gathering. We should all be kind, considerate, compassionate, welcoming, helpful, understanding, nurturing, and tolerant of each other in this CDing community. Sadly that is not the case in the group you met or even here on this forum.

Think about this, the person who made the comment could have been joking. These were people you just met. You were in a bit higher state of nervousness than usual being out of your element. I'm often known to make a flippant remark, like when someone asks if they can ask a question, I might say, the answer is 42 before they even ask.

I went to a crossdresser support group, once. It was a good group of people but they were far more comfortable going out in public than I was.

I look at this forum as my support group. I may not post a lot here but it has helped me to find out where I am.

There are many different opinions here too, you just have to figure yourself out and if talking to someone about it helps that's great. There is a lot of good advice here. There are differences of opinion. Nobody here can see how I look nor I you. I can accept that you want to do things your way, Own it.

Yes ..it would be a good idea to have more specific terms ..or typical group member descriptions...so we all know what to expect
and maybe so that the general public could understand each of us better.

But then again the general public just calls us other names ... usually starting with "f" or "g" so I guess it's easy for them.

Don't judge all groups by the action of one member of a certain group.

Welcome to life with human beings! Most purists look down their noses at those who are not, doesn't matter the club, group, religion, or whatever. It must be hell, for them having to live up to their own standards. Yet most of them pick and choose which standards to follow and expect you to live the standards they choose. Like I said, welcome to life with human beings!

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Don't judge all groups by the action of one member of a certain group.

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A chain is only as strong as its weakest link!

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Originally Posted by annecwesley

I went to an open house at a support group. It was the first time I went to any sort of gathering with other crossdressers. I sent a note ahead of time and mentioned that I have a beard. "You would be unusual, but I think everyone would be accepting". When I got to the meeting there was one person "femulating" (in jeans) and and two folks in drab. When the one who was dressed said there was a changing room if I wanted to change (I brought a bag with my clothes and breastforms) I asked, out of courtesy, if the beard would bother anyone. One of the drab "gurls" said (rather gruffly) "Only this one time". Well that sounded like my wife when I want do dress when the kids are gone for the day. I could not have possibly been comfortable dressed up at that point, I did not come there to be "elephant in the room". So I sat and chatted with the three of them for a little while (out of courtesy) and went back to my motel room, where I could be comfortable (and alone) dressed up.

I feel like starting a club for "Crossdressers" - guys who like to wear woman's clothing (including the ones who can't or don't want to try to pass).

I did enjoy a drive though and some shopping skirted (a long kilt to conceal the hosiery and lingerie I was wearing underneath ) - as a guy.

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As I read this again it appears that you took this worse than it really was. You were invited to change by one person who saw you had a beard, but 'she' still invited you to use the changing room. What the 2nd person said wasn't really that terrible was it? The comment reminded you of someting your wife would say and you couldn't be comfortable at that point. Nobody told you that you couldn't be there, you weren't turned away. You just felt uncomfortable, so this seems to have more to do with your feelings the way I see it. Of course, I wasn't there and I only heard your side of the story.

Hi Anne, If you lived closer to me I would be the first to join your new support group!

I have observed that most "support groups turn into clubs rather quickly. I have never understood why there seems to be so much emphasis on passing when it is very rare that any of us pass in both modes. The only plausible explanation I have come up with is that it is our competitive male selves showing through

I understand that if your going out into the big old world you must not draw unwanted attention to yourself whether you are CD, GG, or an American walking down the street in Islamabad. After all how many times do you see a GG wearing an evening gown and 5 inch heels while out taking the dog for a walk.

It seems many of us have very different and wide ranging goals. Not everyone wants to be a women 24/7, and passing is not possible for everyone, beard or not. Too bad we cant all get along and be supportive or at least tolerant of each other, even with the "Pipefitters in a dress". Seems like that would be the first step to greater public acceptance of us all