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I have this question and I haven''t found a reasonable answer. Why is it thought that we might be considered "Gay" if we dress in women's styles?
In my understanding of homosexuality, it is the desire to have a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex. If this is so, Why would a homosexual man want to present as a woman and why would a lesbian want to present as a man?
Rhanda
If this post is in the wrong place I have no objection to it being moved.
Actually this is an excellent question and is often asked by people when they first find out that a man likes to wear women's clothes. I think that a great many people think that a person would present as a woman for the sole purpose of attracting a man. After all, this is what women supposedly did for centuries! Unfortunately, this just highlights how little the person asking the question knows.
My experience has been that there are very few homosexuals who present as women. As you stated, they are attracted to a male image, not a female one. Now, it appears that many are attracted to a certain type of male image.
It is quite well accepted that one's sexual preference is not based upon how one dresses. However, there are some CDs who do feel an attraction to men when they are presenting as women. I tend to think of these people as bi-sexual rather than homosexual.
As to lesbians presenting as a man, that is an issue that I would not feel qualified to address.
Oh goodness EXACTLY! I detest the mindset that you must be gay if you wear women's clothes!!
There is such a broad spectrum of CDers from man in a dress to about to transition. I think that I would imagine the sexuality percentage is closer to that of the 'normal' population. Yes some are gay, some are bi, it doesn't matter what you wear.
I often wear jeans and a tshirt on weekends, this does not make me a lesbian! I wonder why the world can't see this? Clothing is just clothing, some things fit or feel better than others, shut up and don't be concerned with attire and focus more on the person within!!
I get asked this nearly every time I am OUT enfemme and a member of the general population comes in to close contact with me. I also provide information about CDing to anyone interested. I attempt to educate and inform for the benefit of the CDing community. They are usually surprised to hear that most CDers are hetero. That we are not automatically gay. That I have been married to my favorite person in the whole wide world for XX years.
I do not consider it an insult or invasion of my privacy if the questions are seeking information or are delivered respectfully. The vast majority of time that is the case.
I am having SUCH FUN with this!
Billie
The stereotypical homosexual is seen as 'camp', ie effeminate. If he isn't effeminate, he won't be viewed as gay, unless he tells people he is. I'm bi, and I've been caught in the trap of saying, "Oh really, I'd never have known", when some masculine person mentions he's gay.
If a man is flapping his hand, speaking in a girly voice, and getting really excited about some woman's dress, it isn't wholly unreasonable to assume he might be gay...is it?
I'd say it mostly depends on the individual person and their tastes. :)
I think sexuality and gender are two very different things. A therapist I was seeing asked me if dressing in male mode but slightly effeminate would work for me rather than dressing fully as a woman. I said no "I don't want to appear Gay". She almost broke her pencil writing that down. Hugs Jaymee
Yes the question is reasonable although its assumptions are not always correct and the reasoning is too simple it is still reasoning. The line of reasoning goes like this; A man like to dress like a pretty lady, what do pretty ladies do? they attract men, ergo the man wants to attract other men hence he must be gay. Again too simple of a reasoning but not many think deeply.
If it were only that easy. Every person and every situation is different. What works for one, may not work for another. One cannot assume a statement made by a single individual represents the thoughts of everyone in that group, or demographic, etc. What works for one TG or Cd or GG may not apply or work for any other TG or CD of GG. As is my case. My wife sees herself as the female in the relationship. Has no tolerance for having another appear to be that. She has also categorically stated that she is not a lesbian and not interested in a lesbian relationship. I am. So my relationship will end when I transition. And yes, that is my situation. Does not necessarily apply to any other Trans woman. Relationships are like fingerprints. No two are a like. She is very tolerant and liberal, but NIMBY is her credo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra_juliette
So, I wish it were as easy as wishing it so, but it is not. And for those in different and difficult situations, there is a different path to different solutions. It takes a long time to change a societal norm such as thoughts around being gay and cross dressing etc. but I think there is progress being made. We need more Sierras out there !
Just my :2c: . Do with it want you will.
Erin
Because people use simple-minded classifications to identify other people. For example:
"Person wearing a dress" ==> must be a woman.
"Person is a woman" ==> likes men as sexual partners.
NOTE that neither implication is always true! However, both implications are a safe bet in most cases. Then people falsely assume transitivity and come up with:
"Person wearing a dress" ==> likes men as sexual partners.
Dianne got it. Most people do not separate gender identity from sexual preference. To them, if you dress like a woman you want to attract men. If you dress like a man, you want to attract women. Simple logic for simple minds.
casting aside the just because mindset and how we who are different know the difference, those who are not so familiar with the transgender spectrum are not really at fault for their ignorance. I would not even classify ignorance, as to me, ignorance is not learning or knowing something when there is obvious knowledge or evidence out there.
Go ahead, and type in crossdresser, transvestite, transgender and see what pops up 1st.... How often have crossdressers been portrayed in movies or TV as heterosexual??? How many who are drag queens in the entertainment industry straight? Why is it most likely you will find a drag show in a gay bar??
On the surface, those who are not familiar with trasgenderism or crossdressers, why would they ever think we are straight? And lastly... LGBT, the last one is us, the T, all the rest have to do with sexuality that is with the same sex. People assume until told otherwise that anyone who crossdresses is likely gay or bi sexual. All the evidence on the surface shows we are gay....
How much would it help for a heterosexual crossdresser to think of themselves as a male lesbian? :rofl:
Well just so they know (i'm not)
Nicely put Carole.
I think it's mostly a matter of ignorance of the variety of sexual experience and expression. Most people think of sexuality in terms of two simple categories: gay and straight. If a male enjoys wearing women's clothing, which we all have to agree is an out-of-the ordinary phenomenon, he is likely to be perceived as sexually out-of-the-ordinary, which to the unenlightened mind means gay.
It's because most people have little or no understanding of why we do this and it's an easy label to apply. Lets face it, how often have there been threads were WE discuss why we do this. In time more and more people will come to, if not accept our calling in the same way as they've come to accept that some are gay, become more ambivalent to what we do. Perhaps not fully understood but become one of those things that just is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhanda
well think of it this way...
would you just assume a drag queen is a gay guy with no desire to be a woman?
that's what we're often told... but for all you know maybe 1 out of 10 aren't gay or maybe are just bi and then some actually want to transition!
you just never know!
or the other side...
a butch woman wearing a lumberjack plaid shirt with short haircut... wants to be a man?
probably not!
but maybe!
though you'd probably assume she's a lesbian (and like many stereotypes you'd probably be right!)
My slant on this question is the modern media. TV, movies, songs, etc. portray most guys in dresses as limp wristed and effeminate, or as drag queens, or over the top buffoons. I haven't seen a tv show or movie yet that shows a normal family person, i.e. dad, brother, uncle, in a heterosexual family setting. Perhaps if that were to become a reality, there could be a change in the mind of society, that all crossdressers are gay.
Yes, on the face of it, it is VERY reasonable.
The vast majority of women are attracted to men. The vast majority of men are attracted to women. A man dressing as woman must want to attract men. Now, to your point, the vast majority of gay men are attracted to men, not cross dressers. That is how little is understood about cross dressing.
Rhanda, your question is quite reasonable and is often the very first question a SO will ask just after the big reveal. There are lots of variations in the gay community, and there are variations in the transgender community. Add to that various obsessions, fears, doubts, and worries, and you have the incredible variety of life on this planet.
When I began dressing? I assumed I had become gay. And, I had a couple years to think about it!
So, why wouldn't someone who considered it for 10 second on seeing a CD?
This is not the first thread that I have started and I am happy that it has stirred up more interest than any of the others. However the question has not been answered. If you are a gay cross dresser you may be able to tell us something about why you cross dress. Your reason might be simillar to mine and have nothing to do with sex but just wanting to look and feel your best. I have nothing against your reasoning but would like to clear the air if possible.
My reason for doing it can probably be called gelousey (sp). I just think that certain styles are vary attractive and I want to be as attractive as I can. This may be hard for some to sepperate from sexuality.
Rhanda
Patriarchy is suspicious if feminine sexuality. It is mysterious, untrustworthy and dangerous. By assuming a feminine role the male subverts patriarchy and becomes suspicious, dangerous and untrustworthy.
Patriarchy uses sex to dominate and control women ergo the fear is that the CD will use sex to dominate and control other men, especially in a dishonest and deceptive way.
Either that or they are too afraid to say how hawt they find us!
xx
And here I thought women used sex to control MEN!
Because despite all the talk that women really dress for other women, the vast majority of female clothing is made to accentuate the feminine female body in order to be sexually attractive to men. So it begs the question, who are you dressing sexy for? I will always stand by my belief that even when women dress to impress other women, the basic design of the clothes really means that they are comparing her attractiveness as far as how would males respond to her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhanda
Because there are underlying feelings of being a 'bottom' or a 'top'; dominants are tops, submissives are bottoms, and in each relationship one or the other is just a bit more on one side of the roles than the other.Quote:
In my understanding of homosexuality, it is the desire to have a sexual relationship with a person of the same sex. If this is so, Why would a homosexual man want to present as a woman and why would a lesbian want to present as a man?
We are on a dual bell curve, really; there are some of us all along the line of sexuality, from pure straight, completely bisexual, to pure gay. Few are at the very ends, but the majority are very close to it. The rest of us stragglers have all kinds of mixed feelings going on, some, who's feelings change from day to day or even minute to minute.
It helps me understand the women I love and have loved even better. Society is not all that smart so women like men, therefore someone appearing more womanly must like men as well. Schmart? Yah?
Your question is totally reasonable. My wife knows I dress as a woman but doesn't know to what extent, that I've walked around cities en femme. She says she is open-minded and she has many gay friends, but still sometimes teases me that I must be gay if I like dressing in women's clothes.
I have been on a swingers site, purely looking for CDing friendship (im straight) and I have to say I'm amazed that there are so many gay or bi CDers out there, it made me wonder about the percentages of gay and straight CDers which has always lead us to believe that most are heterosexual, I have arranged a meeting with one who is transitioning, she is bi but happy for friendship meets, can't wait
Asking if I was gay were that first words out of my wifes lips when I told her. I told her maybe I could be a little bi but I could never imagine spending my life with someone other than her. I feel that my dressing has very little to do with what my sexual preferences are.
I have cross dressed for many years finding out the only people that understand why I cross dress, are others with the same desire. The only people I correspond with about this subject are other CD,ers. They are the most understanding.
So being attracted to females as a male and open to all as a girl would make me a straight male, bi girl? Does it work like that or is it just one whole thing overall? I can't picture myself with a man it's gross but can picture Genesis with a man since she is of course a girl but not even as Genesis am I attracted to them just feels right being with them but lately been thinking how much fun I would have with woman and being a lesbian has took over a lot more than being a "normal" girl
Labels are really very unhelpful. More so when applied to trans* people.
For me, I am a sexual being.
I can find all sorts of people sexually attractive for different reasons.
I am married, we are monogamous so I only have sex with my wife.
Does this make me straight? Hardly, I wear dresses, make up and high heels. Not sure you can say that this 'straight' behaviour.
Does this make me gay? I wouldn't say so.
Does it make my wife a lesbian? No.
Does it make her bisexual? No
Is she straight? Well, no, not exactly.
Is any of this helpful? Probably not.
Which brings me back to my original point.
We are ALL sexual beings. We can all find all sorts of people sexually attractive, some are on different points on a continuum, but none of us are exclusively 'this' or 'that'.
We are however not slaves to our sexuality. Some are monogamous, some are polygamous, some are celibate (and not only for religious reasons).
At the end we are all people. We all love and want to be loved. We all deserve love, some of us attract love and some of us repel love.
Some like doing certain things with certain people, others prefer doing other things with other people.
Who does what with whom is less relevant than that we love and accept each other for who we are and who they are.
Labels simply serve to divide us from each other.
:hugs:
Hi Rhanda,
Yes, it is a reasonable question. I get asked this question all the time when someone I know meets me "en femme" for the first time . . . "Um, so are you gay?" In 99 percent of the time it is not asked out of rudeness but a lack of understanding about what it means to be TG. People who are not educated in the community or part of the tribe, do not quite know how to differentiate "sexual orientation", "sex" and "gender". So when presented with say a man who dresses with as a woman, they lump it all together . . . You are a genetic male (sex) who likes to dress and act (gender) like a woman (sex) ergo you must also be attracted to men (sexual orientation). It might not be that simple in their understanding but the logic chain tends to go in that direction. I find if I take time to explain the difference . . . they walk away with a somewhat different understanding.
Hugs
Isha
Why should we have to explain why we dress like women? Why does society have to label everything? Why do people get labelled because individuals have no understanding or are afraid of the way a person is? Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, being what they are. We should all accept each other as individuals and stop labeling people; be confident in ourselves and not in fear of the way others lead their lives. I have been enjoying dressing up in female clothes for several decades now and have always enjoyed sex with women. My ex-wife used to wear male clothing, even some of mine. But when I told her I like wearing female clothes she labeled me as 'Gay', yet prior to that point we had a very active sex life. She wore my dressing gown all the time, so one day I wore hers, she flipped!
We all develop our own view point on life as we get older, however a lot of it is misguided by our parents attitude, or societies banishment of certain individuals. There is a reluctance of individuals to be individual. Instead they have to be part of a group, become a 'label', follow a political persuasion or religion; political and religious views that say they have everyone at heart, who then tell us that certain 'types' of people are wrong and bad.
We are all individuals and we should accept each other for what we are.
CD is a label, but it covers such a diverse subject. Every individual wears what they want for their own reasons. Just because I am sitting here in my little black dress, wearing super soft black hold up stockings doesn't mean I am attracted to men. I am also watching Fraiser and having some lovely thoughts about Jane Leeves.
Suzanne x
Rhanda,
I have just come out to my son and the first thing I feel I need to say is I'm not gay or want a sex change !
Sometimes I feel it's unfair to the gay community that we have to explain it like that as if being gay was something dreadful , we are all as we are !!
My wife said recently that she couldn't accept me dressed, one reason being that she wasn't a lesbian ! I realise now that my answer should have been neither am I, despite wanting to share my dressing with her underneath I'm still a fully functioning male !
I do feel as others have said that the media is very bad at portraying the majority of CDers ! I will accept to most of society it does pose the obvious questions founded on a lack of knowledge or understanding and we tend to be tarred with the same brush as none conforming weirdos !
There have been many threads airing the subject of educating society !
Labels, labels everywhere. But I agree that the question's reasonable. I blame heteronormativity and the enforcement of gender dynamics (weaker sex and all that nonsense) for the notion that a man who presents as female wants to attract men. I'm also noting the commonness of guy-and-CD relationships in cross-dressing fiction (overlapping very frequently with the Japanese Boys' Love genre) which arguably reinforce the notion.
My parents had this conversation after I admitted my CDing couple years ago. Translated and obviously paraphrased:
Mum: (name), why did you try on my clothes? Are you gay?
Dad: If my boy were gay, I think he'd be much more macho than he is. So effeminate. I think he'd have a 6-pack, even.
This maybe a little off topic or not really answering your question.
But my wife asked me the same question at some point and asked me are all your cross-dressing and trans-gender friends straight. I told her I assume however just like with other friends I have or other people whom I known over my life, never asked them that question because to me it was not my business and it was not relevant for me to be friends with them.
It's only reasonable because most people are stoopid... :brolleyes:
Actually that's probably not fair and I take it back before it gets edited out... :eek:
What I really mean is: most people don't think about these things to the level of complexity that many of us do... We do because we try to make sense of what this thing is and helping understand it may help us either control it or at least get to some level of self-acceptance. 95% of muggles don't care about gender or sexuality because they're gender normative and straight as an arrow... 95% of that 95% then don't have the capacity to think outside of any sort of box anyway, so the vast majority of folk will think we're just gender and sexually weird and therefore probably gay too...
Personally I blame Lily Savage... :)
Katey x
Dianne is spot on. Society needs to put things in the simplest possible terms so they can understand them. It has only been recently that there has been a small shift in society to understand that there are an endless combination of colors between the antiquated understanding of everything being either white or black. I think the awareness, understanding, and tolerance of peoples differences is growing in our society, and it's about time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
<3 Lauren
"Why is it thought that we might be considered "Gay" if we dress in women's styles?"
You're not going to find your answer on a crossdressing forum. Lots of opinions but not your answer.
You will have to go out and ask the general public. People who are not involved in crossdressing and people who are not themselves "gay".
Randa,
Diane and others have hit the nail on the head. It's another example of the old "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
The vast majority of folks out there are totally ignorant as regards crossdressing (which makes them easy prey for those who seek to stir up fear and dis-information). Not only are they uninformed, they don't really want yo be informed - that's too much like hard work (and let's face it even we can't agree exactly why we cross dress). So they fall back on stereotypes. Also, we live in a society that is obsessed by sex. Put these two together and it's not difficult to see how any man who wears anything that is remotely "feminine" is immediately labelled as 'gay'. After all, why else WOULD a man wear a dress (and get made up to look as passably female as possible). It's obvious, isn't it? Or at least that's what those who can't be bothered to think for themselves automatically assume.
They're wrong of course, but hey, never let the truth get in the way of a convenient stereotype!
Being one of the very rare old singles on here, my next door neighbor has seen me dressed, and thinks i am gay. Maybe the other neighbor saw me years ago, and her sons, and they won't say hi, maybe think i am gay too. Small town, too. I think that the vast majority, do not think deep, and give pat answers, and pat opinions, like, "he must be gay, dressing like that." We all tend to label people , too much, sometimes right, but sometimes wrong.
It seems that those who are gay on this forum have not read this question or are just like the rest of us. When asked why we dress, just really don' know the answer completely. They may not know who they are trying to impress, just like most.
I maintain that I just want to be my most attractive and that well dressed women have always been the most attractive for me.
I have always been attracted to women who wear makeup that really enhance their appearance. It seems that I am a normal man until I decide that I want to be that attractive. Then I am told by an elder of my church that I can't do this because it sends the wrong message. Just what is the message?
Rhanda
Yes, it's reasonable. A reasonable question is one asked because someone sincerely wants to know something. We want to think everybody knows the differences between sexual identity, sexual preference, gender identity, gender presentation, etc. but it just ain't so. Many people have one catch-all word for all kinds of behaviors that fall outside of or between the either/or man/woman, male/female, masculine/feminine binary.
If the question isn't reasonable, then most all of our wives/SO's ask unreasonable questions. That seems to be the first one asked.
It's because of branding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhanda
Crossdressers and certainly transsexuals are becoming a bit more visible now, but up until recently the general public saw men dressed as women mostly in Gay Pride parades and in drag shows performed at gay bars or bars that attract a large gay clientele.
If the general public saw mostly crossdressers and/or transsexuals as their neighbors and in relationships with women, if this was the main context rather than gay clubs or gay pride parades, then I think the assumption they must be gay would diminish.
Transitioning or transitioned TSs are more public than CDers, but I don't know what percentage are single, in relationships with men, or with women. If not many are in relationships with women, this might perpetuate the idea that M2Fs are mostly male-attracted. I can't think of many high-profile transitioned TSs right now but if they are single or keep their relationships private, then in the absence of knowing, the public might default to believing they are attracted to men. There's Bruce Jenner of course, but she is now divorced and so the public perception might be that they divorced because Bruce is attracted to men ... I don't know.
They're being campy. This refers to intentionally exaggerating women (big hair, overdone makeup, stereotypical costumes). You'll notice that gay men who dress as women take on more of the Drag Queen flair. They don't look like a CDer who goes out to blend in among GGs. A friend who is gay and not a CDer explained it is a way to emphasize the differences between themselves and straight men. It is taken for granted by the other members of the gay community that the person underneath the costume is a man who identifies as a man, albeit definitely not a straight man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhanda
Not all lesbians do, although some definitely downplay their feminine attributes. My SO and I used to go to an alternative club in town (gay, lesbian, drag, and some open-minded straight crowd). There were definitely two camps of lesbians, those who looked straight and those who looked butch. Maybe this is only true in my neck of the world, but I noticed among the butch-looking lesbians that they had stockier bodies, they kept their hair short in masculine styles, they wore shirts and shoes that a guy would wear. They rejected the trappings of femininity. Maybe some of them are FtM. I did become friends with one such lesbian who had adopted a male name but who retained the pronoun "she". She told me that when younger she thought that she wanted to transition, but then she felt that if she did, she would have had to give up many of her connections to the lesbian community, which she considered was her family. So she decided instead to keep her male name, male haircut, wear clothes purchased strictly in men's stores, but not do anything to her body and identify as a lesbian instead. She was not crossdressing because she presented like this all the time: socially, at work, at school. This is who she was, there was no switching back and forth. I asked her if she was genderqueer and she said she didn't know because she didn't think about labels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhanda
More than likely as it seems an effeminate trait associated with homosexuality.
The appreciation of soft fabrics, pastel colours, neatness.....
So it goes on.... Most real "Guys" don't go for this sorta sh*t....