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My wife works with contractors as a vendor, and she has a few that treat her very poorly including talking poorly of her to their mutual customers. It just amazes me how chauvinistic some men still are towards women. But it did make me wonder how I relate to women in general as I certainly have more empathy for females and hope that I have a greater connection with them when interacting.
I certainly hope so as we have a different insight towards women than other males.
I agree with Beverly, MB. I know there are a lot of males out there that make men like us look better with out us even having to try. I am constantly watching the ladies to improve my presentation, but a great side benefit is you see the interaction of men with women and how the ladies react to them. I hope I have picked up enough clues to know when I might be stepping over the line with the ladies.
I wonder how true this really is? I know y'all have this feminine part of yourselves, but many of you still solidly identify as men. And you can bail out of girl mode, and back into boy mode when the going gets tough. I think that y'all are probably more sensitive than most cis guys - I'm sure you are for the most part. Just saying it's hard to really appreciate someone else's difficulties in life until you experience them directly yourself, without a safety net.
Not trying to be a jerk here or anything. Just pointing out that y'alls insight into the lives of women might not be as deep as you might hope. Of course mine aren't perfect either - there are many experiences a lot of women have that I'll never get to have, both good and bad. A fact that makes me so horribly sad sometimes, as the ones I got instead were just so meaningless and awful. (Nothing like looking back on your life, and realizing that for the first 50 years of it, there is not one thing about it that you wouldn't change if only you could.)
It's hard to tell, but I'm pretty certain I do. I think of myself as female most of the time, so naturally I treat women as equals. If anything, I tend to favor women over men, because I identify more with the female side of things. But of course, there are female things that I can never experience, so it's hard to tell.
I treat people how I would like to get treated regardless of their gender. If they want to be nasty, then nasty is what they get. If they are pleasant then that is what they get. How I am dressed at the time plays very little in it.
Having over 40 years in the construction industry, I have seen the chauvinist, as well as, the totally accepting males, that still do not soften a comment when they feel a point needs to be made, i.e. men tend to be much more direct and honest when dealing with each other, especially in construction. If they have a problem with a product, service or work effort they tend to talk specifically to it and not beat around the bush. Not knowing all the details of what your wife experienced and heard from others, I cannot talk directly about her experience. I am not defending those involved with your wife, but did want to clarify that some are like that, but many and probably most are not.
Also just like women, if not even more so, men like to gossip and do indeed talk behind others' backs, so not much difference there.
Well growing up in a female household I kind of can't help but respect women for who they are not by their gender. Although there are times when my male ego takes over and the female mind kind of boggles mine. I also feel that my "femme" self helps in some way to relate to them on certain levels.
I would have to ditto this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feminin Allisa
I'd like to say yes, but from what I've read in these very "pages", I'd have to say that the attitudes towards women here are quite reflective of men generally - some informed and enlightened, some romanticized and idealized, some rather outmoded and a few sadly rather primitive.
As a CDer, my insight is limited to what women wear. That's it. Mars/Venus for everything else.
My girlfriend has mentioned on occasion something to the effect. She appreciates the differences, but wouldn't want me to always be "girly".
Yes,
I think that the man thing sometimes is the macho, I am better then you thing. Even before I started dressing, which was over 20 years ago, I was brought up, just like some have said, to treat anyone like you want to be treated. Well times have changed, and not for the better. People are so disrespectful, at least the younger people seem to be, and that s their parents fault because it was not taught to them. I still date women, and I still believe in treating them very well. Holding the door for them, pulling the chair back for them at the table. Is that wrong? Some people look at me like I am so wrong, but you know what, I won't change.
Hugs,
Bree :)
Absolutely we do, and it covers the whole spectrum. Since Tina arrived almost 10 years ago, my wife has never been late! Once one knows what it takes for a women to get ready to go somewhere, one's whole perspective changes. Another: buys solve problems; a women states an issue and guys just want to solve it and move on. Many women do not handle it this way, and we are the ones in the best position to know this. We are simply more in tune with what women go through and how they view life. That knowledge can't help but change our perspectives and our actions.
I think there are crossdressers/ trans* people etc who treat others with respect regardless of gender.
I also think that there are crossdressers/trans* people who are jerks, are sexist, are racist etc.
We cover a wide spectrum of people.
Sure those who think hardest about things may be more emapthetic, but I am not sure that this is driven purely by being a crossdresser/trans* or whatever.
People are people and cover a wide range of behaviours, values, beliefs etc.
Maybe overall, as a group we are less sexist, more empathetic and more tolerant, but I think it may be marginal. Hard to say for sure...
Hi Mark/Rebecca,
While I agree there are certainly plenty of D-Bag men out there who disrespect women on that chauvinistic level, I also find those same men tend to disrespect anyone who is not in line with their way of thinking. Most probably suffer from inferiority complexes, low self esteem and this is the one way they can feel big about themselves. However, there are plenty of men who are decent and see women as equals. For my part I don't think my CDing has given me any special insight into what women suffer as people know I am a guy. Where I can empathize is being an outcast to some D-Bags because of who I am. My interaction with women has always been one of equal footing as I was raised in a predominately female environment and as such have never seen women/girls any different from men/boys.
I prefer to treat all people the same and will give them the benefit of the doubt. However if you are D-Bag irrespective of gender, that is where I will call you on it.
Hugs
Isha
HI I find it hard to male bash , when that's what am and for all the girly stuff I do, I really enjoy being male, and I have known some women , who are jerks and just as disrespectful , lynda
I believe how you treat women is how you were raised. My mother and father always told me to treat women with respect and treat them as ladies and thats what I try to do.
I do not believe any special empathy is possessed by cross dressers as a group except for some aspects of clothing and makeup, thus cross dressing specifically does not significantly drive how each individual treats or views women. It is more about the individual and how each is wired and their life experiences. Between my time on this forum and being a long time member of a large TG group, I've observed a lot of stereotypical male behaviors and attitudes (good and bad) in about the same amount and ratio as out in the community at large.
I have witnessed several times on this board that CDers can actually objectify women just as much if not more than cis gendered men. Not that this is typically the case, but it happens with some regularity. Also, women will tend to objectify men and categorize them quite unfairly at times as well. I have witnessed that many times in life in general. Even of masculine cis gendered men, women tend to think of them as more shallow and selfish then they often are. Both genders are guilty of doing this.
As for the majority of us on here, yes, I do believe that because of our nature, we do have added empathy and perhaps sympathy of women. In my case and I would bet for many others on here who are married or in LTR with women who know of us, it is that empathy and sympathy that helps us stay married. Definitely in my case anyway.
I think so. While I understand that under our umbrella, there are many different types, I believe I do. I can say this because when I left a job about 15 years ago, several of the women told me that they were going to miss me basically because "I wasn't like the other guys" in the huge facility.
Every time, one of them told me that, I thought, "If only you knew how different!"
I'm sorry that your wife has to interact with ornery men.
But, please do not make the mistake of painting all or most men like the ones who are rude to your wife. It makes it sound as if you are saying that CDers are "better than" most men.
Maybe there are some pockets of industry that are more sexist than others, but keep in mind there are many pockets where sexism is not at issue. I can truthfully say that I have positive experiences with the men that I deal with in my daily life.
Also, these dinosaur macho-men will die out eventually. Younger men today are raised with mothers who are educated, who work, who have established themselves into rewarding careers and who are respected in their fields. There are female doctors, educators at all levels, pharmacists, lawyers, marketing execs, chefs, and the list is way too long to continue. I dare say that your wife is dealing with one of the last remaining subsets of sexist men. I'm guessing this is because construction is a field where physical strength counts and after all, the average male will always be physically stronger than the average female. This may color the attitudes of older men who work in these fields, no matter what slot the woman they are dealing with occupies.
Isha also has a great point. The few men I do know who behave like this, tend to want to dominate other men too.
Oh ... and there are some ornery women too. There are a few women who have reached positions of power and authority and who do treat their fellow women (and men who are underlings) as being secondary. The ability to be ornery is not limited to men. lol.
PaulaQ: Don't be sad, be different.
Reine,I take offense at your comment about the construction field, I am one of those older men who works in this field and I know you were generalizing but I can tell you that you are wrong. Yes there are some A**h***s out there. Contractor does not automatically mean the construction field, but I do get your gist on the subject.
Isha, I really think my sentiments mirror yours. I will never believe a CD would degrade women. I am a contractor overseeing these kind of people and believe it is a personality defect(and quite a horrible one). They dont come back on my jobs. PaulaQ, I think you are wrong about "bailing out" of the challenges women face. When I dress, I want to identify as a woman. I know most of us(me) are just scratching the surface of a woman's existence, but empathy runs quite deep, and the connection we seek to the female gender is at all levels good and bad.
P.S. My wife has never met this ******* or even knows his name., and a decorator told her about how awful and unprofessional it was. If I give out any more info, I might as well just give you my business card. But hey we are all friends here.
Reine, yes there are a lot of different types in the construction trade. Many times we hire based on maintaining our profit, and many horrible people can walk in and out of the trades. But most successful and professional contractors sell to women, and that I do love about construction. They sense early on that you are their agent and not their adversary.
AND, yes we are better than most men!
Hi Rebecca, I have always respected women.:hugs:
I was responding to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Feminin Allisa
I took it that M/R was referring to construction contractors and it is not the first time that I read comments about men in the construction field who do not respect women as equals in their profession. My point earlier wasn't to say that all men who work in this field are sexist. I instead proposed the idea that since this is a field that requires more physical strength than say working in an office, it is not as heavily populated with women as other fields, and for this reason women might be accepted more slowly than in other fields. In other words, I was trying to tell M/R that his wife's experiences with rude male contractors is not typical among men as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark/Rebecca
I'm sorry if I offended you.
Lol, M/R. When I was growing up, I was taught that it is arrogant and conceited to walk around thinking I am better than others, let alone saying it out loud! :eek: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark/Rebecca
One person is just as good as the next, whether they CD or not.
Asking this question is much akin to asking people what they think their IQ* is.
*Baseline of "Average IQ" is 100.
2% [Gifted or Genius] 130+ range
14% [Superior] 116-129 range.
34% [high average] 100-115 range.
34% [low average] 85-99 range.
16% [impaired/delayed] sub 85 range.
So 68% of the population makes up the hi/low average. Nothing wrong with being average right? Someone has to be.
Yet, if you were to ask 100 or 1000 or 10,000 people what range they think they fit into on the chart above?
A disproportionately high number of people will say the Superior or Genius range.
Why? Because people in general do not like to believe they are merely average, let alone below average.
I think the same rules can be applied here to the question at hand :D
We-e-e-ll.... Some of us probably do... and some of us probably don't. Not much help I know, but it is the weekend... :)
Sexism and chauvinism is alive, well and kicking in more than just the construction industry - I think it's a little Utopian to think that we might be amongst the last generation that reflects these attitudes, but at least things are improving.
Personally, in business, I try to deal respectfully with everyone regardless of gender, race, culture or class (most societies do reflect a class element even though most will deny it) but I have a pet theory about human nature and that it's our conscious self that overcomes a natural tendency to be parochial - it's just that most folk (the 'average' ones Sammy has referenced) never bother to think about how their world view might be changed, broadened or improved. I think because we also cover such a broad range of behaviours here it's difficult to generalise about CDers even just on this forum - if we were talking about CDers that identify more as TG, then there might be something more deeply connected, but then women can be horrid to each other too... sometimes scarily so...
Katey x
Im polite towards everyone (more so towards females though) and dislike sexist comments made towards women. I get along far better with women and Im hopeless at making conversation with men especially at work.
Sometimes the differences can be frustrating. Two examples: I have, over the years, bought a lot of new cars. I have usually done my homework before entering the showroom. Typically, if you are dealing with a female sales agent and start asking specific questions about the car you are interested in - its features (engine, transmission, suspension, etc.) the female sales agent will, more likely than not, have to confer with a male sales person to get the answer. This can be very frustrating and leaves the impression that she is unprepared for her job and out of her depth. Can you respect her as much as the male sales person who has studied his product and knows the answer? If you don't - and I don't - I still treat her with the utmost respect. But then I am both TG and a lawyer (a field in which extremely smart female lawyers are everywhere and they will slice and dice you with consummate ease if you aren't prepared, so you gotta respect them and this bleeds over into other areas of life).
A second example is selling or buying a home. Females seem to predominate in home sales. My experience has been that they are highly professional and really know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale. In this case, they definitely have earned their respect, as opposed to the female new car sales agent.
Perhaps in the case of a woman who has to deal with contractors, a lack of deep knowledge about construction materials, supplies and methods has led to a lack of respect in a rough and highly competitive field dominated by hard-driving no-nonsense males.
i was brought up to respect all people as best as i could as far as women go i respect them a little bit more .This could stem from being a crossdresser and kind of knowing what they go through on a daily basis and raising 2 daughters
I think perhaps we have the opportunity to be more compassionate, whether or not all CD's take advantage of this is their own personal decision. I think those that are out and about in the vanilla and LGBT world on occasion can gain a better perspective of how women are really treated.
Here's an interesting quote from To Kill a Mockingbird, with "his" changed to "her" for our audience:
Consider the domestic violence stats in the US (source - http://www.thehotline.org/resources/statistics/)Quote:
[...] You never really understand a person until you consider things from her point of view […] until you climb into her skin and walk around in it.
- Nearly 3 in 10 women (29%) and 1 in 10 men (10%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence and/or stalking by a partner and report a related impact on their functioning. (as a side note - I've been told by an activist that the number is even higher for TS women)
- From 1994 to 2010, about 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence (IPV) were female
- Nearly, 15% of women (14.8%) and 4% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included rape, physical violence and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.
Having spent time en femme out, I've been cat-called by a group of guys from across the street (they didn't make me as TG), groped, slapped on the butt, experienced the "creepy eyed guy" in the bar watching me all night, and even fear of possible violence just walking one block to my car. I think I posted about that incident a while ago. The point is, having grown up with all sisters and myself having only daughters - I though I was already more compassionate towards women. But experiencing the fear first hand was a wake up call. And it made me sad that my daughters will have to face the possibility of violence every day of their lives.
So - get out there. Experience it. And I hope it DOES change your perspective and help you treat women differently.
Jamielynn, I think you cut off the last part of the quote "said Buffalo Bill" LOL. Of course I do agree with you.
Jeninus, as owner/partners and my wife being the manager, she is nothing but professional. This neanderthal just talks down to women particularly in authoritative positions. I do think I am an advocate of the female in business, and when asked my opinion, I have responded with "I tend to want to give her anything she wants" in the past. Perhaps my motives are not completely altruistic as this usually increases the size of the project.
Reine, I am glad you took it in the spirit it was intended.
M/R, this happens everywhere. Virtually every female attorney will tell you that she has been mistaken for a secretary or paralegal when approaching a new client - and some clients refuse to accept the professionalism of a female attorney. Female doctors are mistaken for nurses, etc. Perhaps it's a societal thing, with a mixture of low expectations and resentment founded on a baseless assumption of some sort of affirmative action advantage afforded to women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark/Rebecca
Unfortunately, the Neanderthal gene appears to have survived the onslaught of the Cro-Magnon! According to some studies our fellow citizens out there have 1 - 4% Neanderthal genes. Your wife's antagonist may have a disproportionately high level. Perhaps he will, like many contractors, declare bankruptcy before too long and be out of her hair.
I hate to burst your bubble, but do you realize just how sexist these comments really sound?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeninus
When it comes to a typically "Male Dominated" field and profession like automobiles and auto sales women are ill equipped to handle the job.
I know car sales people, and let me tell you that most men, specially in new cars, know little more about car specs, or cars for that matter then what they memorized from the sales brochure. There are also many sales women who are more then just a pretty face in a skirt.
In fact I've known more then a few men in the field who had ZERO knowledge about automobiles.
But when they're asked the same questions and have no clue it doesn't seem to matter.
Yet, in real estate sales women "know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale".
So women know how to clean a house, make it pretty and smell like cookies.
Yet like automobile saleswomen, just don't ask them about the heating system or hot water specs because they will probably have to confer to the male agent in the office right?
Interesting thread! Becoming more femme has only underlined to me the differences between males and females.
Sammy777: crying 'sexist!' when you encounter statements like Jeninus's strikes me as a PC kneejerk based on idealism and ignoring an avalanche of evidence. Without getting too bogged down in such an old argument, perhaps you could suggest a reason why less than 1% of garage mechanics are female?
i recently visited a nearby garage having first spoken on the phone several times with the lady who represented the service area. Let me tell you she more than knew everything. I don't think I've ever had such an informed and professional interaction.
I've in the past felt like a second-citizen at a garage as the mechanics clearly know things I don't and looked down on my lack of engine know-how - and that was me in drab long before CD-ing. It has been largely true that the man has to speak to the garage mechanic, the woman has to speak to the hairdresser about the kids. However, society is changing, there are far more home-care dads with wives out at work, single-parent families of either gender parent. The boundaries will continue to blur, and as they do the treatment issue will change.
LOL. While reading all the comments here, it strikes me that responses (including my own) reflect the member's own views of gender disparity. So is there an unequivocal, unalterable, objective truth, or is it a question of an individual looking at the world as a glass half full or half empty. Are some of our members sexist and because if it they see this as being the norm?
Truth and reality are subjective. I don't see myself as less capable than a man. Therefore, I do not detect sexism among the males I interact with, except the very few who are flagrant about it but as I said earlier, these men are dominate among other men too. This is also true of dominate women who also are out there. Men do not have a monopoly on superiority. :)
sort of what the OP was asking isn't it? Do TGs treat GGs different than GMs. That's disparityQuote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
No, I meant looking at it as if most non-TG-men are sexist, vs not. In my experience, in my day-to-day dealings with men, they are not. In someone else's experiences, they are. So where's the truth.
I don't think that TGs are particularly less sexist, since I don't personally experience it in the wider male population (except as stated, by a few just as I've run across some women who are also dismissive). And then again how do we define sexism. We've had quite a few threads about TGs who portray women in a manner that most women do not portray themselves, so is this a form of sexism?
Your signature line says it all... it sums you up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy777
Sure, we could all be Totally Politically Correct here and pretend that some differences don't exist and that experience isn't a guide - not 100%, but still a guide. But then what's the point of having a discussion? For every question we would simply have to look up the PC template and there we'd find our answer.
I could make a long post with plenty of reasons backed up with fancy pie charts and graphs. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Nikkilovesdresses
Short version = From a very young age Girls are not encouraged to pursue such fields as science and industry.
And even when they still persist to show an interest they are often not taken seriously or met with ridicule.
Granted it may be better now (I hope!) but when I was in HS, Vocational school programs were all VERY male dominated. The small amount of females that did attend (surprise, surprise) wound up in the Culinary class, go figure?.
There was one girl who was in the automotive class with me. She lasted about three weeks. Why?
Not because she could not handle the work, or because of "just being a girl" changed her mind.
No, it was because she was never left alone, always getting singled out and patronized more times then not.
Not to mention the "she MUST be a Lesbian". Oh wait it wasn't put that nice, more like "Check out the Dyke".
She was basically run out of the "Boy's club". Plain and simple. Something I am sure still very much happens today.
It has been my personal experience that the majority of girls who have an automotive [mechanic's] background and pursued it as a career usually had a father, uncle, ect in the field. And more importantly, usually had either no older brothers, or was the only girl in a large family of sons. (Meaning she was probably treated as one of the boys)
I hate to generalize, but the avg girl has about the same chance of getting hired as a mechanic as a straight guy does getting hired in a hair salon :lol2: "That was, I say that was a joke son" -Foghorn leghorn
I wasn't going to say it Jeninus, but your initial comment seemed to suggest that perhaps she was not qualified or competent for the work. I am sure you were just being the devils advocate or going through the motions of your job. Ultimately, perhaps Reine is right (as usual) that there is likely just as much deviation in our views of women as the general public. Perhaps though not as extreme in the negative sense, but lets face it, how many of us want to be Donna Reed.
You clarified in a later post that your wife was more than qualified to handle her job, so the issue clearly was with her antagonist who had no excuse for his reprehensible behavior toward your wife, and behind her back. The thread - as they so often do - expanded somewhat beyond your original posting toward a discussion regarding the difficulties many women face when they enter non-traditional fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark/Rebecca