Do you ever feel fake?

I'm not even sure what I'm asking.

I know there is a notable component of the LGBT community that's fairly uncomfortable with bisexuality. I think bigender is probably more acceptable here, but it's still hard to wrap my head around myself sometimes, right? And the going-out-with-a-beard post was not especially well recieved (but mostly for safety reasons so I get it). That's not the core of my question really...although I do frequently wear obviously women's jewelry & sandals with my guy clothes, and I don't catch much crap about it around town. I guess there's a cultural line there I'm still on the safe side of. Our downtown gets pretty weird anyway (one more reason why I love home).

I think it's more like when you're not one thing or the other, and you can feel kind of fluid about it, then it lets in a lot of room for doubt. Especially when you haven't committed years of heart and brain power to knowing yourself, I was sort of repressed about it before, and society was ok with it that way, and family was ok, and really, most importantly, I was ok too, I didin't think about it very often, I'd dress at halloween, whatever. I was kind of an ally, I read about generic lgbt stuff, have some friends that were, etc, but it wasn't super personal.
Then it kind of clicked for me more last year, but I keep occasionally coming back to wondering is it just a game for me? Pink fog? The phrase "college phase" keeps coming to mind, but then I always get the real strong urge to tell that voice in my head to f-off.

I know some people are quite sure about transitioning, and others know it's just for fun for them. But where are you when it's kind of maybe part of your identity, but you're pretty sure it's not the whole enchilada, but you've been afraid of not being macho enough for the last 20 or 30 years and you're pretty through with that b.s., but is it just because it's exciting to dress? Am I part girl, or am I just too cheap to skydive? (Wait, those sandals were kinda pricey ;) And what if you feel more fearless, caring, and other things you want to be more of when you dress? And, oh, even regular people like your neighbors don't really give a crap when you go out walking dressed in the morning with a ugly 5'o'clock on so you're feeling like a bit of an idiot anyway and they still say 'hi', so maybe you were just hiding from people like them the whole time and you could be more of a girl than you think you are now, and what would that mean? And you still like guy stuff and funky beards and all that, so it's not like it's going away, but then that makes you feel like just a boy in a skirt when you think about it like that. Maybe I just have this idea in my head that girls are cooler, and all those shows and books are always telling you not to try to act like something you're not just cause it's cooler, but then, I've never really felt a lot of the things I've felt sometimes when I'm dressed, and I know I'd regret if I lost those moments of my life, I'd definately feel less blessed (can finding out something about yourself that's often social sucide feel like a blessing?) and wow, I could just keep going like this for pages, but I think you're probably getting the idea a couple of times over already...

<deep breath>

This is really funny in a way, because I think what sort of moved me from a halloween cd to a regular cd was some level of confidence that I achieved with myself. So. Now that I'm ok being me...wait, who am I?

How do you ladies think through your identity, anyways? Are you supposed to work on it until you're 'sure' who/where you are? Do you just know and you have to figure out how to be totally honest with yourself? Is it a total b.s. notion to tie yourself down like that in the first place?

:fairy2: Summer

I do, on occasion, feel like a fraud when dressed as Alex. Because I am a crossdresser and not transgendered, I sometimes feel like I am pretending to be a woman and that this might come across as offensive to GGs, rather than considered a form of flattery. As I say elsewhere, I dress up as a woman for the thrill of it, though the purely fetishistic form of the behavior left me years ago. I am a reserved person, an introvert. So to dress up in a frock and parade about in public is really pushing the envelop for me. The act of doing it is thrilling. As I get older, and intellectualize more on the subject, I know that I am free to dress however I want, as long as it conforms with the local laws. In addition, I am no longer obsessed with passing as a woman, which will never happen, but rather I wish to pass as a human being with dignity.

There's a term for your condition: human.

You have to find the answer that's right for you. This forum will give you lots of examples of what others have found out but there's no "right" answer; just the answer that works for you.

Personally I have no problem being "transgender male," that is, a guy who crossdresses and tries to do a good job of it but who doesn't disavow his maleness while doing it. My girlfriend is a post-op TS. She had much stronger feelings about being a woman and rather completely rejected being a male at any level. I have no disagreement with her choices and support them, she has no problems with my choices and supports me.

I'm reasonably sure there's a spectrum between male and female societal roles and you have to find the spot you're comfortable in. I also believe the spot moves around depending on circumstances and prior experience. Experience has been moving me further into the female side as life goes on. I think maleness becomes less important as we grow older -- guys are less called on to be guardians (a role that the male stereotype excels at) and more called upon to have wisdom (a role that suffers if there is too much maleness.) However, when circumstances require me to get all mannish, I do it without any problem or regrets. Then I go back to my relaxed state which is midway between male and female.

If you like to go out wearing women's clothes and a day's growth of beard I wouldn't worry too much that you're not crossdressing "right." Be forgiving of yourself and open to movement along the spectrum of behavior (i.e. don't dig your heels in and insist on mixing women's clothes and a beard because you carved out a role and now people expect it of you.)

You're fine.

I'm totally comfortable with myself in both modes and not afraid or ashamed of anything, least of all myself. I'm my own person and not driven by the ideas or concepts of others. My own personal choice with expressing myself is if I present as male, I express myself as male, If I present as female, I express myself as female. No rhyme or reason really, just my choice and I choose to never mix the two for expression and it kind of showcases my personal diversity. I guess you could say I'm an actor but which aspect is acting? Hard to say but does it really matter? I have fun with all of it and that is what I do. :battingeyelashes::)

No, I can't say I ever feel like a fraud, as I'm not trying to fool anyone. I wish I looked better (more female) than I do in reality, but all I want is to be allowed to dress and present as female in public, as and when I choose. It's not like I go out to bars and try to fool guys into thinking I'm the real deal. With a boat race like mine, that is a definite no go anyway :eek:.

My wish list consists of simply dressing for the gender expression I desire on the day. I like dressing up as a male and being my wife's hubby, but I love equally, dressing as a woman and trying to be the best I can. So, in conclusion and to dispel all doubt, No, I don't feel like a fraud :).

Rebecca

Quote:

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Originally Posted by desertrider

But where are you when it's kind of maybe part of your identity, but you're pretty sure it's not the whole enchilada, but you've been afraid of not being macho enough for the last 20 or 30 years and you're pretty through with that b.s., but is it just because it's exciting to dress? Am I part girl, or am I just too cheap to skydive? (Wait, those sandals were kinda pricey ;) And what if you feel more fearless, caring, and other things you want to be more of when you dress? And, oh, even regular people like your neighbors don't really give a crap when you go out walking dressed in the morning with a ugly 5'o'clock on so you're feeling like a bit of an idiot anyway and they still say 'hi', so maybe you were just hiding from people like them the whole time and you could be more of a girl than you think you are now, and what would that mean? And you still like guy stuff and funky beards and all that, so it's not like it's going away, but then that makes you feel like just a boy in a skirt when you think about it like that. Maybe I just have this idea in my head that girls are cooler, and all those shows and books are always telling you not to try to act like something you're not just cause it's cooler, but then, I've never really felt a lot of the things I've felt sometimes when I'm dressed, and I know I'd regret if I lost those moments of my life, I'd definately feel less blessed (can finding out something about yourself that's often social sucide feel like a blessing?) and wow, I could just keep going like this for pages, but I think you're probably getting the idea a couple of times over already...

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I'm not gender fluid. But my SO is, s/he is just the way you describe yourself, and I know my SO intimately. So I feel I can give you my opinion:

It's OK. You don't have to choose one or the other gender and you can be happy. You are not a fake just because you don't fall neatly into one or the other gender-binary boxes.

There are two things going on here:

1. Who my SO is internally, the very core of my SO, is a person who does not fit neatly in either the all-female or all-male box. At the same time, there is no desire to present gender-fluid or mixed gender cues, no desire to present in a way that annihilates gender altogether: (present androgynously to the point where people looking at you Cannot say whether you are male or female, which is hugely difficult to accomplish). No.

2. Instead there is a tremendous desire to present as a binary woman (not be one legally) and to be taken as one when dressed. The desire to do this is not tied to an identity as a woman, since my SO has no desire to undergo all the steps to transition (body modification, legal gender change, complete social transition, SRS, etc). My SO is not uncomfortable with his male body. But the desire to present as a woman (an attractive woman, not the harried, regular GG that you see out and about getting all her errands and chores done and who is not thinking about clothes or appearance), is strong indeed.

So this presents a conflict: the existence of a non-binary gender identity combined with the desire to present as an attractive binary woman occasionally. THIS is what you need to resolve. My SO did this by giving herself permission to switch according to her elastic needs, and not worry about making him/herself fit permanently into any of the two gender-binary choices.

And it's OK to not be macho in male mode. I'd say that most of the men I know are not macho, but they don't worry about it because they haven't spent a lifetime of wanting to hide a desire to dress. I don't know how old you are and how you were raised (if men shouldn't be caring maybe, or shouldn't show their emotions, or shouldn't enjoy chick-flicks for example). But boys today aren't being raised like this. I didn't raise my boys like this. They were not made to feel ashamed when they cried. They were allowed to pursue any of their interests (one loves to cook, another has an artistic soul, the other is so kind, sensitive and nurturing towards kids, he'll make a great dad, the oldest has a thing for hats and fashion). No one questions who they are. No one calls them sissy. So, what's macho anyway?

It is a spectrum and fluidity can be genuine. However, feelings are never fake and you might benefit from counseling to determine what your true feelings are.

Actually, what makes me feel like a fraud is not revealing myself to my few friends. I suspect they would be very supportive, but it still gives me some anxiety about when that day comes. But when I think of my crossdressing and the first breathtaking time I dressed partially and went out on my own (OK, it was a LGBT club that is known for their drag shows), I felt the same as I did after my first bi-sexual encounter. When that happened, I didn't know what to expect... was the ceiling going to fall on me? Was I going to have a mental breakdown... would terrible feelings of despair over what I had done consume me? But, what happened was... nothing. I felt good. I felt like I had discovered something about myself that had been hidden for too long. And it was pleasurable. I had denied myself something that only added to the richness of my life. No other part of my existence changed. Now I am trying to accept and move on with my crossdressing as I did with my sexuality - it brings no harm to anyone else and only gives me pleasure. Why this is so and what inner processes are taking place within me is something only a good psychologist could ferret out. But that road is too time consuming and expensive. Right now I can only observe that all that I am and all that I am doing only brings me some sense of satisfaction - and that is enough for me for the moment.

I consider it normal and healthy to take time for introspection and to figure out "what all this means". For myself accepting that I have a gender fluid nature has been a comfort to me. I find myself now trying to find ways to integrate my feminine side into my drab life so that it doesn't always have to be about what I wear. In that way I can simply be a whole person and any feeling of being fake disappear. Stuff like this takes time. Don't doubt yourself. Life is a continual prosess of growth and our sense of identity changes constanly. Try to enjoy the journey and learn from your experiences.

Bridget

A bit of background first... I'm transitioning and have been living full time for a month.

But yes, it still has an air of unreality. When I look at myself in the mirror, I don't really see a woman... I see the same person I always was, even though out in public I seem to be taken for a woman most of the time.

A lot of times, I think to myself "Who am I kidding? How can I possibly hope to pull this off?"

But then I remind myself how much happier I am now, and then it's all good.

I wouldn't use the word fraud because I'm always real, but there is sometimesa lack of confidence if Tina has not been active in a bit of time. When I think about it logically, that lackof cconfidence makes sense as it is really hard to present as a women when you start with a clearly male body and voice. In addition, Tina's world is her own and it's a bit scary to step back into that world after a hiatus, not knowing what you might find.

But Tina is very real, and I don't need anyone to prove that to me. When she can be a regular part of our existence everything about our duality is simpler and more confident.

How can one be FAKE if they are being who they are?
You don't have to be one gender or the other to be real.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by desertrider

I know there is a notable component of the LGBT community that's fairly uncomfortable with bisexuality. I think bigender is probably more acceptable here, but it's still hard to wrap my head around myself sometimes, right?

I think it's more like when you're not one thing or the other, and you can feel kind of fluid about it, then it lets in a lot of room for doubt. Especially when you haven't committed years of heart and brain power to knowing yourself, I was sort of repressed about it before, and society was ok with it that way, and family was ok, and really, most importantly, I was ok too, I didin't think about it very often, I'd dress at halloween, whatever. I was kind of an ally, I read about generic lgbt stuff, have some friends that were, etc, but it wasn't super personal.

Then it kind of clicked for me more last year, but I keep occasionally coming back to wondering is it just a game for me? Pink fog? The phrase "college phase" keeps coming to mind, but then I always get the real strong urge to tell that voice in my head to f-off.

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You bring up a number of difficult issues.

There are a number of identities, both gender, and sexual, that are commonly erased in the LGBT community - you mentioned the big two:
- bigender people
- bisexual people

There are some others:
- polyamorous or other non-monogamous relationships
- bdsm / kink based relationships

By the way, if you don't think these things are erased by the broader gay and lesbian community, consider that they spent $300 Million last year promoting marriage equality. Now look - I'm all for marriage equality, it's absurd that two people who want to be married can't because of someone else's prejudice. However, this is a bunch of money spent to make the point that "two men = family, two women = family, just like a man and a woman = family."

Presumably people who don't fit those structures are just weirdoes - they're certainly not going to talk about them.

It's the same with the narrative about transgender people. You want to know who you are going to see on TV? Someone like me - who's totally binary gender aligned, just opposite of their assigned at birth sex. You won't see stuff about gender queer, bigender, gender fluid, nor any of the other very real and very valid identities that exist. (To be fair, most of the trans people I know who are activists really do try to consider non-binary people. We do, but we could be better. The broader gay and lesbian groups though - lol, no freaking way, many of them barely understand someone like me, and folks, I'm just a girl - it's not complicated.)

Please don't internalize these messages. I know it's hard not to. Your identity is VALID - and it's what you say it is. And it's OK if it takes you a while to figure it out. That in no way invalidates your narrative.

I am struggling with this myself currently, in terms of my sexual orientation. I am a minority amongst minorities - I'm bisexual, poly, and kinky. It's ironic, because in terms of gender identity, I'm highly binary aligned - I'm strongly female identified. I am strongly motivated - it is like a biological imperative - to conform to a fairly standard view of femininity. I'm a girly-girl, in so many ways just like my younger sister. I'm a fairly conservative person in many ways. But my sexuality is nothing most people I know will understand or accept easily. Indeed, people with those attributes are apt to be viewed as kind of evil. ("She's cheating on you, man!" "OMG, what she does is disgusting!") And I can tell you that as I've come to realize these things about myself, it's a real struggle to accept them. But those attitudes aren't true - I am not an evil person.

And neither are you, Summer, for being who you are, nor are you fake. Be the best and most authentic version of you that you can be. Be open, be who you really are.

What most of us here really are, are simply people who don't fit in well with the norms and structures setup by our society. There should be no shame in this, but unfortunately, shame is a primary control mechanism for our society. So most of us feel plenty of it.

To answer your specific question about transition - I realized that I felt fake, that my entire life as a man was a lie. Indeed, in many respects, I feel now like one of the replicants in the film Blade Runner - who believed themselves to be just regular everyday people, only to discover they were only two years old, and all the memories they'd ever have were artificially implanted in their minds to better control them. Now obviously I know the things that happened to me were all too real - and often quite unpleasant. But at this point, they don't even feel like things that make sense anymore.

The only person who can determine what, if anything, is fake about your life is - YOU. All I can suggest to you is to do what I've tried to do, and be rigorously honest with yourself, and even when you think you understand something, look at it from other angles, compare it to your history, run it by people you trust who will call you on lies you might tell yourself. This is a process - it is no simple thing, because it involves understanding that ideas about our lives that others take to be axiomatic aren't quite true for us.

I've been at this for over two years now - some 27 months to be precise. And I don't believe I'm through it all yet. But I am getting there, I believe. And I hope you do too.

I think it's natural to feel like a fraud at times. I know that my self doubt tends to gnaw at me from time to time. I worry that I'm not as attentive a parent as I should be. I worry that I'm more of a hack than a truly gifted graphic artist. I worry that I'm too self absorbed to be the partner my spouse deserves. Self doubt is just baked in.

It makes sense that we can feel this way about our gender presentations too. There are limitless variations under the TG umbrella. Some of our more vocal representatives would have you believe that their brand is more real or authentic. There is no one way to get through this life. You have to figure out what works for you and then do it without regrets.

For me that means maintaining two separate, complete personas each of which present different aspects of my personality. Each one is authentic and they mostly overlap. However if being more of a gender blend at all times is what works for you than do it! Let the nay-sayers say nay. They don't have a vote.

Lucy

Fraud or fake....no. I'm past wishing I was this or that. (Fill in the blank). Self acceptance....or maturity.... Might be defined as being happy with oneself.

Like Dianne, I am also transitioning. I live as a woman except when I have to be in front of customers or appear at the office. Most of the time I work from home. When I do have to appear as a male I feel like a fraud. I have this urge to scream out I am a woman! It is becoming harder and harder.
I think it takes time to really know where we are on the spectrum. With me it just kept getting more clear that I was suppressing who I was because I didn't think I could face it. I had such a bad reaction every time I had to return to being male. I know most here are not like that. The point is that I had to experiment to really know where I stood. Once I became willing to face my situation it was clear to me.
I wish you success in your questioning. Most here will arrive at a point much less than transitioning. That is great! It means much less upheaval in our loved one's lives. But if we find we need to transition there are success stories on this forum. We don't have to hide our whole lives. We can thrive!
Suzanne

This is deep !

Wow, this is a deep conversation. I have felt funny, but not like a fraud. I'm a CD and yeah sometimes when I'm out it seems It is bit funny when somebody looks at you and calls you mam or lady. But hey we are out there as that and we try to be that. I never mind my male side. The feminine side does struggle sometimes as I may not be totally in that mode of spirit. Then it feels a bit strange. But hey, why we do this? It is not fraudulent. Yet strange that we dress as girls and try to look like them. If I had to choose, I would be male. Yet I process fem thoughts all day long plus male thoughts all day long. I sometime wake up and say to myself, Your a girl today. Even if I'm getting dressed as a male. So my spirit can be both. So when I dress to go out. I have to try to shutdown the male side. But it is always there. So I try to modify my personality to look and be feminine.

Never! When I put on a dress, that's the real me. I don't feel fake in male mode either. I feel like an actress on a stage performing a role that she's practiced and perfected all her life. Because it was the only way she could get what she wanted in life.

Summer, I think I can empathise with what you're saying.. and I don't think you should worry too much if you can help it as most of what you say is just about being a complex individual in a world that loves simplicity... :)

I'd go further and suggest that this place won't necessarily help settle those feelings - not because folk won't try to help, but because we are such a broad community and there are many here who still feel more comfortable with the binary world and some who can make you feel like there is some sort of continual development when for many of us there isn't, and we really just need to try to feel comfortable with being who we are.

I feel like it has been a 'game' as you put it, at times... a technical challenge, a creative challenge (get the the makeup right, get the walk right, forget the voice... ;)) but it is deeper than that too. I am communicating and expressing something about me when I do this, and I think that those of us who are stuck in the inbetweeny world of occasional expression just cannot be really understood by anyone who occupies a comfy, binary position - whether they're GGs, GMs or TS - I'm personally beginning to believe that we're the weirdest of all, in a way... but sometimes it's nice to feel different - even in this community. :D

I don't think I'll ever be 'sure' of where I am, other than an approximation - but I can still be happy with that... :)

Katey x

Hi Summer,

Very interesting post and one that resonates with me. I consider myself TG but like many, I don't fit into a neat binary description: (1) you either cross dress but are all guy; or (2) you are TS and wish to become a woman. I am kind of stuck in the middle in that part of me identifies male and part of me identifies female. Some may argue this just demonstrates a confusion to commit to one gender or the other or perhaps I am fooling myself and I am really TS but I would posit this is not the case. I like (nay love) my guy physiology and have no desire to alter it chemically or surgically. When dressed I think I can pull off a narrow hipped, small chested girl (I don't use padding or forms) quite well but then again women come in all shapes and sizes and when I am dressed . . . it is me and only me. Do I feel like a fraud, fake or phony? When I first started going out I guess in a way I did as I felt people were staring and I was expecting "Hey, you are not a woman!" However, once I got comfortable with myself, I ceased worrying as I did not care what people thought because I was "me" and let's be frank . . . "the kid ain't pretty" so I am fooling nobody even with my best make-up days.

What I have come to accept is that the female identity is just as strong as my male identity and there are days when it feels better to be dressed as a woman and this could be dressed pretty for lunch with friends or simple yoga pants, top and runners (minimal make-up) for running errands. Do I feel like a woman or want to be seen as a woman? In a sense, "yes" because that is who I am presenting at that time but then again I can feel my "guy self" behind my eyes and know he is part of me. There are days when I feel more guy and dress accordingly and again I can feel my "girl self" behind my eyes and know she is part of me.

Hugs

Isha

S:

As you can see, lots of variation here and I'll throw mine into the pot...

I identify as bisexual and transgender. I claim transgender in that I do cross that line from male to female, only to return and get ready for the next time. I do not wish to cross that line and not return. I am comfortable as a male and increasingly so presenting as female. As far as presenting as female, at home it is from the neck down, and head to toe if going out. Usually during the week during the daytime, I underdress with either a thong or firm control shapewear briefs. I have a fair selection of casual and dressy feminine clothes.

On occasion when I am getting completely dressed, it does sometimes hit me that I am being a fraud. However, this feeling has always been quite brief and passes like indigestion. I don't dwell there and it goes away pretty quickly. However, it does seem that the feeling is happening less frequently these days and may be related to the reality that I am dressing more frequently these days.

Remember that the Human Mechanism has various ways in which it tries to mold our behavior and keep us "safe". For example, guilt is one way. For example, guilt may work to make us feel bad about dressing due to the potential probalems it may raise for our families. Taken as an extreme, it may get us to stop dressing altogether and that this could keep us "safe". But, for those who stop dressing for an extended period of time, they may experience an even stronger desire at some point in the future...

DeeAnn

Nope. Love it. :daydreaming:

Got to terms with it some times ago. Love being girly. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

How can one be FAKE if they are being who they are?
You don't have to be one gender or the other to be real.

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I totally agree with Tracii. We are who we are, regardless of what we wear.

I think being FAKE has nothing to do with crossdressing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

I totally agree with Tracii. We are who we are, regardless of what we wear.

I think being FAKE has nothing to do with crossdressing.

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Agreed. I never feel more genuine that when I am crossdressing. This is the reality and it is a kind of deep reality that doesn't exist normally. I think we probably all experience this differently but for me it it about attaining a deep sensation of who I am and tapping deep into a feminine side that otherwise remains mysterious to me.

It taps me into a rich reality so much that I think I want to transition, but not sure. Either way, it is a very cool and deep feeling and I like talking about it with friends who are equally fascinated.

Not "fake" really, but sometime "faking it" when drab.

Fake? Sure. It's the underlying feeling I have whenever I'm dressed as a guy and not doing anything. It just feels like I'm in the wrong clothes. No horrific gender dysphoria going on, just the same feeling you'd have if you were wearing a bathing suit to a formal affair, while everyone else in the room is wearing a tuxedo.

I really do not try to thonk deeply, it only leads to ulcers.

Being a dresser is not something to think deeply about especially if you have friends for encouragement.

That is a big plus.

Hey all, thanks for this conversation! I think each of you took a separate scentence in my stream of conciousness and ran with it!

Just to clarify my end, as I'm thinking about it, I think the 'fake' I was thinking about was as relates to myself - removing a lot of boundaries suddendly can leave 'too' much freedom, perhaps. It leaves you thinking, 'wow, this is great!', but then, that little doubt maybe creeps in in the dark - oh, am I just overcompensating years of mild represion now? One day I'm going to wake up and realize I'm really like 99.5% male after all? - the horror!

I'm feeling like I was a little too comfortable not thinking much about it either way for too long, but now I'm feeling like oh, "you can take back my gender spectrum when you pry it from my cold dead fingers." And now I'm trying to reconcile those two positions. Like how do you go from feeling like something like gender that most people think they have 100% figured out and think it's pretty static, how can I sort of do like a 180 (or a 90 or whatever), and immediately feel authentic with myself about it?

I guess the thing is, it maybe doesn't actually 'feel' like a 180 so much, but it sure 'looks' like a 180, and I'm as caught up by the look as anyone, and it makes you question sometimes if the 'looks' is outpacing the 'feelings'. For 20 years the girl wardrobe fit in a shoebox, now it's needing it's own closet space. From the outside looking in, "somethin's goin' on". Maybe all the pink fog tales have me feeling a little cautious with myself, and that's no bad thing, the site has been very helpful in understanding it with my SO, etc. - somethings are easier taken at a pace less than headlong =)

I don't think it's causing me too much heartache...I've just come out of this narrow canyon, and I'm looking out on this vast plane, and I'm like, holy crap, there's a lot of open space out there! Thanks y'all for helping explore it...Summer