Is it child abuse?

I'd like to know the opinions you have:

Is it child abuse for parents to forcibly cross dress their male child (in this example, age ~2). And photograph, and keep photo until his adulthood.

He subsequently endured teasing by his two sisters and constant threat hanging over him that they'd tell his friends, schoolmates, etc.

He became a compulsive crossdresser upon passing through puberty (as someone said, the die was cast), causing failed retionships and estranging his children, even 25-30 years since the estranged child caught some rare, infrequent glimpses or clues/hints, and probably was told by her mother (the cd's ex-wife) during and after the divorce. The CD in question hasn't crossdressed AT ALL in 20+ years. But to many otherwise "open-minded", liberal people, crossdressing is the last unforgivable sin, and to many of these, worse than ANYTHING a man could do.

Please take these one at a time, because I believe many will consider some of the facts mitigating other of the facts. thank you

Gigi

Many parents take photos of their children naked or in dresses. These photos shouldn't become objects or shame or embarrassment. After all, the child didn't elect to do it. Sadly, after divorce many ex-spouses tell secrets in an effort to alienate their children from the other parent. I think it's a stretch to blame your parents for an innocent thing they did when you were two.

In a healthy family one wouldn't be tease and threatens, certainly never for pictures from early childhood. A picture of a two year old would ordinarily be a keepsake and a remembrance.

What and how you describe this experience brings to mind a lot of questions that are better taken up in therapy.

You need therapy sounds like if its you you are talking about.
Are you trying to blame all your problems on someone else for something that happened many years ago?

Yes on my opinion it is child abuse.

It wasn't too long ago when there wasn't much difference between male and female baby clothes. I have a family picture of my (now deceased) father-in-law, in the early 1900s wearing a dress-like garment with long hair and a bow in his hair.

He was two years old and the older brothers (age 6 & up) were wearing pants. It wasn't done to be abusive, I imagine the loose garment simply made it easier to change diapers. And lots of little kids hate to get their hair cut. Who knows, my F-I-L may have kicked up a ruckus every time his mother approached him with a pair of scissors! Things are different today with all the easy pull on pants and disposable diapers, but if your parents dressed you in a dress-like garment before you could remember, are you sure they were doing this to be abusive or to shame you? Was it your Christening gown by any chance?

If you're interested, scroll down to read a bit about how baby boys were dressed just a few decades before you were born, and have a look at a picture of Franklin D Roosevelt at around age 4-5!

http://soletstalkabout.com/post/3825...ue-is-for-boys

As to threatening to tell others, really how you took that was up to you. Did you have any desire to crossdress when you were young (a lot of CDers here did). If not maybe you could have sloughed it off as a joke. If you were hiding a secret then I can see why you might have felt shamed, but the source of the shame was internal. If it was just your sisters who teased you, then you could have simply told them to bugger off. Even if they had shown the picture to others, you had no control over how you were dressed in that one picture and it needn't have defined you. We all grow up with embarrassing pictures of ourselves as babies. My parents used to show people a picture of me sitting on the potty strapped in with a leather belt (presumably so I wouldn't fall off), and with a very angry scowl on my face. My parents thought the picture was hilarious and I laughed right along with them. My ex husband and his brother used to laugh themselves silly at that picture of my father-in-law, an he laughed right along with them too!

Sorry to be so harsh, but my point is that you will be able to put this behind you only when you take responsibility for your own reactions.

I am sorry that you felt that way though. I hope that talking about it in here will help. :hugs:


On the other hand ... if your parents did purposely dress you as a girl in order to punish or shame you and they did this on a regular basis, by today's standards this would be abusive. But then other punishment methods used then are abusive by today's standards too, such as using a strap or a yardstick on the buttocks or on the hands (this is how I was punished as a child), locking a child in a closet, scaring kids to the point of crying with stories of boogeymen, etc. Thank goodness we are continually evolving.

OK, as one who lived your scenario, it really depends on up to what age they do it. Mom had me wearing my sister's clothing up until between 3 and 4. It apparently didn't have an effect, because my dad put a stop to it in time. After that, I had absolutely no desire to dress up as a girl, or do girl things. I behaved as a boy, thought I was a boy, and was treated as one by everyone around me. It was a completely different incident that happened a few year later that screwed me up. The summer after first grade, I was molested by an older boy who told me that god had made a mistake, and that I was really supposed to be a girl. That made me wonder about what had happened years earlier, and start imagining all the other things that 'might' mean that I was a girl. But it wasn't the initial dressing up at toddler age that made the impact; it was all the years until high school basically being someone's girlfriend, that the idea that I was really a girl was reinforced by that guy that set it in my mind permanently. After all, there are plenty of boys out there who were kept with long hair for religious reasons too, and I don't think all of them wind up as crossdressers. And of course, babies were very often dressed in pretty gowns for baptism and christening, too. Until how you are dressed starts changing how people interact with you, and at what age, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes. Then again, I played alone the vast majority of the time when I was a very young child. FWIW.

The abuse part comes in with the parents and siblings teasing him about the picture over the years, not the picture itself.

As a 2 year old don't normally dress themselves, you could imply that any clothes is abusive.
My day clothes at that age, was a worm cotton dress (made nappies easier to change).
When my parents get the photos out, they look longingly with love for the baby.

It would be abusive to use the image to harass me, but they never will.
Had my family harassed me, I would wish them the best, and be gone.

Cross dressing does not cause "failed relationship", many of us still have loving relationships with wives and children, but the description sounds like someone who didn't get loved, didn't learn to love or trust, and maybe lacking in these aspects

SIN is a doctrine of religion - not of open mindedness, kindness, compassion or liberal thinkers

Our future, is not determined by our past.
As an adult, we take in what we want, release all that is garbage (including family, bad environments, labels),
and we determine our future, by what we think today.

Hi Gigi,

It is a bit hard to determine what you mean by forcibly dress the male child. At the age of 2 most children are not cognizant enough to know the difference between gender clothing and as such, I doubt a fuss would have been raised by the child (whom I am assuming is . . . you?). How was the child dressed? Pink frilly dress and tights with Mary Jane baby shoes or more along the line of gender neutral clothing? Was it a christening gown perhaps? Was this a one time event or did it continue? It could have just been a picture and one your parents thought cute and kept as a memento or even forgot they had it.

Now where it could be construed as abuse would be if the parents did it to be cruel and used the photos as a means to humiliate the child in later years . . . I don't read that in your post though. You note the siblings made fun of the child because of the photograph but kids can be cruel and the photo may have been seen as a way to get one up on the child.

WRT to cross dressing in later life, I doubt that dressing a child up once when they were 2 years old and taking a photo would lead the individual to become Transgender. That is a mindset and something innate which cannot be forced on someone who once they are old enough to rebel, they would continue.

Hugs

Isha

A parent who alienates their children from the other parent for any reason other than proven child abuse by the alienated parent commits child abuse, in my opinion. I've seen it happen. My view is it should be up to the child to think independently and draw their own conclusions.

Parental gender issues are not an acceptable reason to alienate children. If someone tries, then I think most here would agree the alienator has issues, even if they are supposedly professionally qualified to deal with this sort of thing.

Sure it is abuse, if the parents are forcibly making him wear clothes he didn't want to, then having family members tease him about it, and threaten exposing it, very much abuse IMO. And, even though he became a CDer himself, what happened to him as a toddler is probably not in any way a reason as to why he became one himself. Gender identity is what it is. To someone who is cisgender, what they wore as a toddler or on a dare, or a prank will have no bearing on them wanting to start CDing.

it is abuse,that they were made fun of and forced at later years,i would also recommend seeking help,sadly parents when they divorce drag children into it,my life was similar but I wanted to be a girl but wasn't allowed,got dragged into the fright with parents and abused by sibling for been more fem,yes it screws your life up and puts preasure on your marriage if you don't resolve the abuse early with help.

It appears some respondents either did not read the entire OP, or mis-read it by amaking assumptions that were not in the original statement. I copy the first two lines, which are all I care to address at the moment:

"Is it child abuse for parents to forcibly cross dress their male child (in this example, age ~2). And photograph, and keep photo until his adulthood.

He subsequently endured teasing by his two sisters and constant threat hanging over him that they'd tell his friends, schoolmates, etc."

As to the first line: Forcing a child to wear clothing regardless of gender, prior to their being able to select and don their own clothing is not abusive. If it were, there are many children, myself included, who could claim they were abused simply because they were made to wear clothing. My earliest memories are of throwing a fit because I had to wear ANYTHING. I would have been about two or three at the time -it was when we were living in Darby, PA, and dad was going to Drexel Institute of Technology. We moved back to Baltimore before my fourth birthday.

The second line says his sisters teased him; It says nothing about his parents. How old were they? IF they were only a year or two older (which I suspect) one child teasing another can hardly be called "child abuse".

However, those things said, I believe it is telling that the author is even posing these questions. One has to assume one of two things; either this occurred to the author, or the author is posing hypothetical questions to stir up discussion. If as I suspect, the former is true, then the author needs to get some quiet, one-on-one discussion with a disinterested party, to examine why those questions were posed as they were, in an almost accusatory manner.

I am neither a psychiatrist nor an attorney, but I DO know how to read and parse both statements and questions. I do it daily in my profession as an engineer. (Before one can formulate an engineering design or answer, one needs to firmly establish the question.)

I also suggest the OP read, and seriously consider my signature line. It seems apropos the discussion.

This article was published in slate.com about parents who wanted their son to live as girl, taking balet lesson in a pink tutoo. to understand what life as a girl was like. The answer was negative believing it was abuse. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/d...ghtenment.html

It is child abuse, period.

Valery, 18 mos to 2 year old children do not dress themselves, their parents do, and so they can't be forced. Also they aren't yet attuned to boy vs. girl clothes. My boys could have worn a tutu at that age and they would not have known the difference. The OP did say the only evidence was a picture taken on that day, so it doesn't look as if his parents dressed him as a girl repeatedly as he got older. And if his sisters teased him, this is not abuse. Siblings tease each other all the time.

AlwaysHave, the boy in your article was 10, not less than 2 years old. There's a big difference.

The question has been well answered by others so I'll leave that alone.

As far as others "threatening to tell", the issue rises that this is a trigger that can only be pulled once. Once the tale is told the threat no longer is relevant. Chances are, the teller won't be believed anyway which leaves the action impotent. Buckling under to such a threat isn't a good idea!

What I getting out all this is the picture was taken by the parents OK nothing odd about that.
Growing up his sisters made fun of him because he had been dressed that way.Nothing odd there siblings do that.
But to say just because his parents dressed him that way caused him to become a crossdresser later in life is past ridiculous.
Its like saying just because a man likes to crossdress therefore his is gay and wants to have sex with every guy out there.
Sounds like this person is trying deal with their dressing and having guilt over it which a lot of dressers do we all know that.
But to blame the parents for his own actions years later seems a bit crazy.

Gigi, here's my 2 cents. U can't tease someone about something they r not ashamed of. U r obviously ashamed of the photos and your crossdressing. U sound so negative about anything to do with your dressing. In my experience, my own shame and embarrassment re my dressing has been much more damming than anything anyone could say to criticize me/it. Because being a closet dresser, I cannot hurt anyone except myself.

U seem to have terrible esteem issues that may be damaging your life. Please find an experience, qualified counselor immediately. U don't have to love yourself. But, it helps a lot if u at least can accept yourself and forgive those who hurt u!

That situation certainly sounds like abuse to me. Not just the dressing, but the teasing and threats, only a family of sickos would treat a child like that!

Not sure, where forcibly dressing a child as the opposite gender falls but it is certainly not ok. there sounds like alot bullying is going on which could be considered child abuse as it has clearly had a long lasting effect. it is probably best to consult a therapist or a counsellor about this and what do about this.

I think that anyone stating that this was abuse and that the family are sick for teasing him needs a reality check.. Any younger sibling is going to be teased and/or bullied to some extent by older siblings.. if it hadn't been a photo of him in a dress-like garment at the age of 2 (which in itself is NOT abusive in any way shape or form), then his sisters would have found something else to pick on.. I'm also assuming that the kids sisters didn't actually tell the whole school about it otherwise you would have mentioned it.

I also don't believe that had anything to do with his decision to cross dress later in life. After all, if the torment and ridicule and persecution were as strong as you state over this photo, then surely the person would have done anything and everything to shake off the demons it created.. not embraced dressing in a compulsive manner.

As for blaming crossdressing for failed relationships and estranged children, personally I think that's more a desire to feel blameless for whatever did cause the marriage to fail. And it's also hard to tell because you don't explain the reasons for the realtionship breakdown. Was the mother of the children aware of his dressing when they met?? was she accepting?? is it something that was kept secret and came out after the kids were born etc?? Was that a major factor in the separation and so on.

Whilst a lot of relationship issues can be traced back to childhood events that cause certain behaviour patterns, it is generally held that such early stage development and it's effect on adult relationships tends to centre more around the attention, time and love the child received growing up.. whether their parents remained together.. whether there was violence etc in the family home.

But I'm pretty sure that many many thousands of little boys have pictures somewhere in gown or dress etc.. and lead perfectly healthy lives with perfectly healthy relationships. Personally I think the individual mentioned needs to take a long look at themselves.. be honest with themselves about why the marriage broke down.. and not be so quick to jump on such an event as a way to explain everything and absolve themselves of all blame.

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Originally Posted by AbigailJordan

I think that anyone stating that this was abuse and that the family are sick for teasing him needs a reality check..

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Over the years that I've been here, I've come to the conclusion that some people quickly skim through the OP. They react to the keywords and they don't bother reading the other posts. There have even been members who've say they do not read posts that are longer than a short paragraph.

So, OPs beware! Pay attention to the responses that look as if someone has put thought into it.

If this is child abuse then it seems like a trivial example. There is abuse and then there is ABUSE! But sometimes the weirdest little thing can affect us in a big way.

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Originally Posted by AbigailJordan

I also don't believe that had anything to do with his decision to cross dress later in life. After all, if the torment and ridicule and persecution were as strong as you state over this photo, then surely the person would have done anything and everything to shake off the demons it created.. not embraced dressing in a compulsive manner.

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Not necessarily. It is pretty common to re-enact trauma as explained in this article. http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/. Sometimes when you fight your demons they win and you surrender to them in order to survive.

At the time of dressing the baby, one wouldn't consider it abusive. This is because no one thinks the child will remember it, and because this was done quite a bit back in the early part of the 20th century.

However, parents should not continue the practice, as it could trigger one's innate transness.

That is, being trans is innate, to some variable degree. If one does have this characteristic, CDing at any age could awaken it. If one does not have this characteristic, CDing at any age would normally not affect the child.

The problem comes with not knowing who has this characteristic, and no idea at what age it could be awakened. If left alone, and never cross dressed, it might never awaken.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Once the tale is told the threat no longer is relevant. Chances are, the teller won't be believed anyway which leaves the action impotent.

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If the sisters tell the story, and the story is to be believed, people will laugh at the entire family. After all, the parents are the ones who dressed him this way. The world will laugh at the parents. And ultimately it will come back to haunt the two sisters too, because people will laugh at them. "Oh your brother wore girls clothes at the age of 2." Seriously, discrimination against you for being a CD affects the entire family, not just the crossdresser.

1. No, it is not abuse.

2. It sounds like you are laying a blanket of blame on everyone you've ever met.
Your parents, your sisters, your ex-wife, your children, open-minded liberals and the church.
That's kind of convenient, never having to take responsibility for anything you've ever done in your life.

When I was about three and a half or four my parents finally had me baptized. This was because my parents had a falling out with our church and after they reconciled their differences they decided I should be baptized. Well, I was dressed in the daintiest , most sissiest little girls dress you could possibly ever imagine. Until that time I didn't know I was dressed in a dress for my baptism. I saw pictures of myself a few years ago and until that time I didn't know how I looked or that pictures of me even existed. I was given the raspberries that day and a few times after. Its always embarrassing when my relatives do that to me. I don't have one single memory of that day although I wish that I could remember that day. I can't believe my father allowed my mother to do that to me.

I have to say though that I don't consider that in any way abuse.