Family Conversation Left Me Speachless

My sister, nephew, daughter and Mom were with me having dinner. Conversation turned to gays and how gay pride events should not be allowed. My nephew and I supported it. Then conversation turned to transgendered. My sister said they shouldn't be allowed in the ladies room and how it is a safety issue and the little girls must be protected. The others agreed, except my nephew, who remained quiet. I too did not know what to say. I wanted to tell her that women don't pay much attention when I'm in the bathroom and they're not undressed anyway. I wanted to say that women are perfectly safe around transgendered men. So, I was left speechless. Then, my daughter said that men should not be wearing bras anyway and how disgusting it is to think about. I was pretty taken aback by the conversation and concentrated on eating, but they were all looking at me for affirmation or something.

I felt like I was caught. My body is shaved, my hair is long, my eyebrows are shaped and my nails are polished clear shiny. Very uncomfortable conversation.

In addition, I'm kind of freaked out about the ladies room now, although I've had 100% success. It would be easier to just be gay. They are more accepted and understood than we are. Finally, now I know where my family stands on the issue. Only my nephew would show some modicum of understanding. Sounds like my daughter would disown me, even though she has seen me with feminine hair and androgynous clothing and even painted nails. We admire dresses together and I have picked out most of her clothes and all of her Mom's.

Sometimes I wish so bad I could just tell them all and find acceptance as a result.

It was almost the opposite experience for me. I'm 22 years old though. So, I was drinking with my brother one night and the talk of gay marriage came up. He is pretty homophobic and doesn't at all agree with the fact that gays should be allowed to show affection in public, let alone be wed. The topic of Bruce Jenner then came up, so I thought now would be the time to out myself and my dressing.
I told him about how I like to wear women's clothing sometimes because of the erotic experience I associate with feeling "feminine". He then asked me, "so, do you like guys?". I answered no, which is the truth. He replied "I can understand gender changes more than I can grasp the legitimacy of same sex attraction.".

I also ended up telling my mom about my private dressing and she was so casual about it. It actually feels so good to have a family that doesn't freak out about my dressing. Of course I still don't want to be caught dead in a skirt around them, but at least I have people I can always talk to and who will support me no matter what.

I just deleted a post to this one, too bold! This struck a real nasty chord so I'll tone it down a lot.....I'm still the MAN of the house (sorry for being chauvanistc ladies) but MY rules, I own the dinner table, and I DON'T LIKE YOU!

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Originally Posted by ChristinaK

Sounds like my daughter would disown me, even though she has seen me with feminine hair and androgynous clothing and even painted nails. We admire dresses together and I have picked out most of her clothes and all of her Mom's.

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Perhaps your daughter made the bra statement for family political reasons rather than to have a dig at you? From what you say, she is quite aware of your unorthodox ways!

What a horrible meal- but you survived it. Go out and buy yourself a new dress to celebrate:)

Next meal, I would attend in drag, and point out women were not allowed to be actors, all female roles used to be played by men in drag, that maybe women probably shouldn't be allowed to vote, they should all be barefoot & pregnant in the kitchen.

Christina,
I understand how difficult it may have been to take a stand in the conversation, I guess each person needs to tackled separately to put your or our point of view .
I don't think you should let them go on making you feel bad, we do have a valid point of view and getting it right with your family is the first hurdle, they do appear to have many misconceptions despite knowing something about your CDing needs.
One question , do they all know about your CDing or are they missing the messages you're trying to put across ?
All my family know about my CDing so we don't have awkward conversations like this ! You shouldn't need to be gay to be more accepted, we are wired differently and people shouldn't be allowed to go on with false misconceptions ! If your daughter came out and said she was gay should wouldn't like misconceptions and I'm sure you wouldn't do that to her so why let it happen to you !

Hi Christina,

Sorry to read about your experience. It is never an easy pill to swallow when folks go off on the community writ large and even harder when it is close family. I am just curious . . . does your family know about your CDing? I know you indicated that they may suspect but do you think they know? If they started the conversation down this pathway, it may be their way of either gauging your reaction or trying to get a sense of where you stand. I guess it comes down to what you can live with. If the awkwardness of the conversation was bearable and you can move forward from that, then just do so and put it away. The next time the topic comes up in conversation just politely move the conversation in a different direction to avoid any new awkwardness. The other alternative is to confront your family, tell them about yourself and how the things they said hurt you . . . but I am not sure if you are prepared to go that far.

Cheers

Marcelle

It's a tough one Christina... :hugs:

It's easier to be bold sitting behind a keyboard but quite another to take on a debating point within a family, particularly when you may feel the odds are against you... bit of a no-win situation possibly... I have a parallel in that my wife comes out with some quite naive and bigoted things from time-to-time (part of the reason I've never fully revealed this side of me) and while I try to educate and discuss to varied effect, sometimes these things are just so deeply rooted in peoples' beliefs that education simply won't help, but I suppose I'd always believe that trying is worth it... Just not to the extent of inadvertently outing oneself.. :)

But you know the ladies' room argument is just BS... Not a safety issue, not even many recorded incidents of any issues where the transgendered person has not been the victim - so just another example of ignorance and bias...

I'm sorry for the feelings this experience has engendered in you - I can understand that it's particularly awkward and hurtful to hear this from your own family, but that's people, I'm afraid...

Katey x

Me and my aunt were having a conversation about this woman on big brother who cam out as trans-gendered on live national tv, back when it was on this summer, and I told her that even if I were a trans-gendered person that I doubt I'd be willing to out myself due to the fear of loosing what little family I have left. She just kind of gave me a sidelong look and agreed that that would be an understandable stance, due to the general seeming lack of social acceptance even amongst those who say they support trans rights.

Now, I realize it's not the same thing, but I do feel it falls in the category of "six of one, half a dozen of another".

Christina, my reading of your post is that the family do not "officially" know about your crossdressing; they may not know at all. Either way it reads as though you don't know whether they know or not.

Sadly, I think you missed the opportunity. I know it is very hard to tell people about being a CDer and, given the way the conversation had gone, I can understand why you didn't take the chance but it would have put them all on the back foot having made their derogatory remarks and suddenly find that they could be talking about YOU. At that point they either stick to their guns and you have a discussion about why their positions are inappropriate, based on suppositions and lack of knowledge or they backtrack in response to getting information from someone who actually deals with those very issues on a regular basis.

For what it's worth, I would definitely "get stuck in" next time it comes up. I might even be tempted to bring it up myself..."You remember the conversation we had last time about crossdressers..."

I understand your dilemma but I think the family demonstrated the usual lack of knowledge and understanding that many of us experience and which leads to some of the prejudice we fear out there in the real world. Only by making people more aware of the reality about CD/TV/TG will we get to the point where we are widely accepted. I love to talk to people about my CDing - I tend to tune in if I hear a conversation that might lead in that direction and then join in, introducing myself as a CDer. It isn't something we need to apologise for, it is simply part of our make-up, however we got there, and we are not freaks or perverts or whatever else people label us.

As for visiting the ladies room - as you say, you have never had an issue so why change? I think you are far more likely to get comments/ridicule, etc if you go into the male toilets whilst en femme. My solution is to use the disabled toilet if there is one and there is no disabled person waiting to use it; if not, then it is the ladies room. If I am out as Michelle I tend to moderate my drinking, avoiding coffee, in order to lessen the likelihood of needing to visit a toilet.

Do let us know how you take this forward...opportunities to "come clean" are not easy to find - I waited over a year for the opportunity to tell my wife once I had decided she needed to know about it.

Michelle
xxx

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Originally Posted by ChristinaK

Sounds like my daughter would disown me, even though she has seen me with feminine hair and androgynous clothing and even painted nails.

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It is very easy to understand. I am almost sure that your daughter knows that you are a CD. Now when she said that a man using a bra is disgusting was the chance she was awaiting for to warn you to never tell her that you do that. She loves you and respects your privacy, but she simply doesn't want to hear about this.

Knowing about a thing doesn't mean that you want to see or hear about that. I know about a lot of disgusting things in this world however I prefer to 'pretend' that they just don't happen because it is too much overwhelming. Let's face this: human being is hypocrite. Everybody wants to buy that Chinese cheap stuff even knowing that it is manufactured by people (including children) over-explored and that environment in China is being massively destructed (remember all that people in the street using surgical masks?). We know that. But we don't want to admit that. We don't want to see that. We don't want to hear about that. We just want to buy the cheap stuff and pretend that everything is fine. I could give similar examples all the day long.

This is the same thing about being a relative of a crossdresser. One thing is a wife, daughter, mom, brother, etc, have all kind of suspicions about you and see a lot of 'evidences' that you are a CD. Another completely different is when you come and confess it out loud.

:doh:

Hello ChristinaK,

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I think anyone one of us can be caught in a similar situation and if it isn't something you were preparing yourself to, it willbe really shocking, yet alone to find a courage and turn the table around and see it as opportunity to come out. It is easy in retrospect but not in the middle of the action. After thinking about it I, I came to conclusion that we must engage our family members and stand up for rights of others even if we don't want to disclose that we are part of that community. You don't have to be gay for example to support their rights. The comment from your daughter about men shouldn't be wearing bras and they look disgusting is simply not acceptable and rude. And if she said it only to make a statement to you personally, it just shows lack of respect to you. Either way, we may and we should condemn these comments as any other human should do.

I usually wear a dress or a skirt to the dinner table. There isn't any doubt where I stand on TG issues. I'm not much of a fan of gay marriage, but if that's what the majority of Americans want, then that's what we should have.

I don't recommend a direct confrontation with your family en mass, but if you feel you want to address their behavior, do it individually and privately. In this way you will avoid pack behavior, which cannot end well.

Hello ChristinaK and everyone
The discussion you had at the dinner table is one that happens everywhere. My own family very much like what you have described. I think in the grand scheme of things, if it isnt affecting you, then dont worry about it. Something that is overlooked many times. LGBT equality has been in the forefront these days. Back when preachers were getting all bent about porn. Truth is if you dont like something, stop looking at it. Same here, we arent directly affecting an individual, so long as we arent being perves. Which is what many folks worry about in the MtF trans world. So why isnt the FtM in the spotlight? Then two guys being married is a big issue. But why isnt two ladies that big an issue.
The world has just gone loco with all the double standards between what men and women can/cant do. I like dressing as a female, i may want to live as one. But aside from my mother who birthed me, what is it doing to anyone? Nothing i say, not a single thing other than a reason to laugh.
Sorry i got on a soap box, i am sorry to hear of the awkward conversation you had. I think you may have been being prodded to open up. Shiny finger nails, long hair, shaped eye brows, could have outed you to the family. As most do, trans/crossdressing men are seen as gay. Bringing the start ov the coversation. If this is true, we may never know, then you did a good job keeping it bottled. Was that the way you should have done it? Who knows, but for now youre safe.

To me this sounds like group think. No one at that table was giving an honest considered opinion, they just said what they belive every one else wanted to hear. The nephew sounds like a considered individual.

It's very easy for a stranger to sit at a keyboard a thousand miles away and tell you that you should have challenged your family members or even told them about your crossdressing. The problem is, that stranger won't be suffering the consequences of his/her advice.

If it happened to me, I would do the same thing you did, say nothing or try to change the subject. It's just not worth it and the only people who need to know about your dressing are the ones directly affected by it. Your wife, for example or anyone living in your home.

Don't let anyone try to convince you that you have an obligation to crossdressers in general. You do not.

Welcome to reality. More people probably think in the same ways many of your family members do than don't. It is the reason why we have these forums, and why many of us are in the closet in the 1st place. I too would not be ruffling up feathers at that very moment. It would have just been too awkward. But maybe in the future, on a one to one basis, perhaps if and when a similar convo comes up, you can gently offer disagreements, or a different point of view.

I remember a couple of occasions, one, waiting for my wife at a nail salon.... while waiting, I got a 15 minute chair massage. Then, sat in the waiting area, regular male mode, no questionable anything. There were a couple of older women who gave me very dirty looks just for even being in a salon. I wasn't getting my eyebrows waxed, or a manicure, just waiting for my wife. But to those elderly women, just a man being in a "nail salon" is cause for looks of hate and scorn. Imagine what they must think of Jenner and anything else going on today. Another occasion, I had an urgent need to use a bathroom, the men's was closed and I wasn't about to cause myself serious embarrassment, so I went into the women's room, apologized to a woman who was in there, explained that the men's was closed and it was urgent. I just went in and went. Still, a horrific look glazed over this woman (also not on the young side)

I am sure we all here the jokes and comments from time to time. If not about us, just about any alternative lifestyle, be it gay or trans. There is still a lot of hate out there in the real world.

sounds like you know now....

I don't envy you in that situation it would be hard to stand up. As everybody probably they are in this situation quite a few times. I find a lot there isnt really a lot of malicious it usually is deeply train behaviour that they don't thinks is that bad.

When I am in that kind of situation I try to be honest when I can. Example, we have a close family member who is obviously gay, the topic come up a lot and both the wife and I are like what the big deal. He doesn't want to show up at family gathering and we tell his family that it is stupid to think he would treated poorly. His a good kid that everyone loves but.. Its the small things for me. I do enjoy the gays shouldn't be married arguments. I have a lot firepower for that conversation.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

I remember a couple of occasions, one, waiting for my wife at a nail salon.... while waiting, I got a 15 minute chair massage. Then, sat in the waiting area, regular male mode, no questionable anything. There were a couple of older women who gave me very dirty looks just for even being in a salon.

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Makes me wonder why they insisted that my SO and I were bro and sis during my first pedicure. Then there was a whole lot of chatter (in language I didn't understand) after I told them I wanted color.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Edmund Burke]

I learned a long time ago that simply supporting LGBT rights does not out me. Verbal bullies talk big when they are unopposed, but if someone asks them to back up their outlandish claims they will quickly change the subject.

If you wish to help your daughter and family understand you then you must understand what their underlying fears are. Fear of ostracisation? fear of ridicule? Their statements are masks and reveal nothing more than a lack of any genuine consideration about the issues being discussed. You must draw out a genuine discussion on what is the true concerns.

I'm thousands of miles away behind a keyboard. But I also have children who every day go out in our community and their dad is a girl and they stand proud and say they still love me. I can't tell you that you should confront your family, but I can ask you if you feel it is right and can you live with yourself about not saying anything and your nephew hurts himself physically or emotionally because he is gay or transgendered?

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Originally Posted by CynthiaD

I usually wear a dress or a skirt to the dinner table. There isn't any doubt where I stand on TG issues. I'm not much of a fan of gay marriage, but if that's what the majority of Americans want, then that's what we should have.

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SERIOUSLY!!!! I'm not quite sure what I am left more speechless over, the lack of understanding of the plight of others or the sheer apathy in the avoidance of making a decision and taking a stand. Pontious Pilate also let a decision be made by the "majority", it does not mean it is the right decision.

After the news started advertising Jenner's show, I heard several women in my life express that they are quite uncomfortable with trans people in the women's room. That might be a widely held sentiment.

There's uncomfortable and then there's 'safety issue', the latter being a political ploy As Katey said, there are 'not many recorded incidents'* of women or girls being molested by CDs/TGs/TSs in women's washrooms. I'm not out about my dressing but this is BS that I'll argue against to anyone who brings it up simply on the grounds that it is BS.

* Frankly, I'm not aware of any such incidents at all, but if anybody knows of any please send me a link.

Feeling caught sometimes does happen. A family conversation about trans people happened years ago. They were making fun of trans people and there I was in camisole with matching panty, and pantyhose, my feet tingling from heels because I was out dancing half the night. Couldn't say a thing just had to sit and listen. The ladies room is so much nicer and prettier than the mens room too. Oh well chin up, later g

Yeah, I feel you.

My wife and I have raised our children in a very progressive, accepting environment, and so far they have turned out to be just exactly the kind of people I've always hoped they would be. But that's definitely not true of our extended family. There's never been any doubt whatsoever about where they stand on these types of issues (just slightly to the left of the Nazi party), and they NEVER miss an opportunity to tell you just exactly what their take on it is.

Almost as if they've known something was "off" with me since I was a child and they're baiting me or something, I dunno. It's frustrating as all get out though. Kudos for keeping the peace. Even though it might not have been the "rightest" thing to do, I can understand that it may have been the socially necessary thing to do.

I've been in that situation before too many times. Who wants to be the family that descends into a shouting match at the outback steakhouse on a Sunday afternoon? And usually it's just one or two loudmouths at the table, and really do you want to do this with grandma there she's like 90, she doesn't even know what day it is!

So you damn near bite a hole in your tounge, while your kids (whom you've told to stand up for what's right their entire lives) watch you fold.

It sucks! But I totally get it. Hang in there. There will eventually be a time and place that is right for this confrontation, and you will totally get to righteously unleash!

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Originally Posted by jjjjohanne

After the news started advertising Jenner's show, I heard several women in my life express that they are quite uncomfortable with trans people in the women's room. That might be a widely held sentiment.

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Not widely held, as most women don't worry about it at all.

To those who object I ask whether they are bothered by obese women, ugly women, or loud women in the restroom. All have the right to use the facility. Chances are, they have shared restrooms with TG people dozens of times and not even realized it.

We are taught from birth that males and females are different and once we reach a certain age, we are taught that boys use the boys restroom and girls use the girls restroom. Men use the men's restroom and women use the women's restroom. That's pretty much why there are separate restrooms for males and females and it's the law in some places. Anyone trying to change this is going to face a long uphill battle.

As far as "transgender" or "trans" people using the women's restroom, until the point that they have had SRS and legally become (and look like) women, most folks view them as men in women's clothing (or wolves in sheep's clothing). Whatever we think about it, it's not going to change the general public's perception. If women are afraid of transgender women or men dressed as women, that is their legitimate feeling regardless of how we feel about it.

The restroom issue would be best solved by individual unisex restrooms.

As for the "Jenner situation", I don't believe it has helped anything. Most folks think it's a joke or a publicity stunt.

Christina,

Gay people are accepted but "Men in Dresses?" Yuk!

I get the same vibes from my circle of "friends?"

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Originally Posted by Rachelakld

Next meal, I would attend in drag, and point out women were not allowed to be actors, all female roles used to be played by men in drag, that maybe women probably shouldn't be allowed to vote, they should all be barefoot & pregnant in the kitchen.

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Rachel,
The last part of your quote I haven't heard for a long time.

I mentioned it to Germaine Greer once backstage when the womens movement was really strong.
It was a strong male belief at the time.

"Maybe women probably shouldn't be allowed to vote, they should all be kept barefoot & pregnant in the kitchen."

I think it is still a South Island, West Coast idea as well. :)

Enny way I am still alive to relate the story... :)

the only way you find out the real views is by them not knowing, in this case its possiblly a sign of daughter rebellion/disapproval, perhaps she can't resolve her Electra as things stand?

people will be polite to our faces when we are revealed, it's only when we are undercover we can discover real attitudes. hypocrisy rules and we're probably just as full of it as anyone else

That conservation is why most of us are still in the closet, there is no way I could tell my two sisters that I enjoy wearing women's attire more then I do men's attire or that I keep my body hairless and wear nail polish on my toenails.
That I would rather shop for a dress and /or skirt with a top then to shop for men's wear. That I like to wear nylons or knee highs over socks, that I like to wear makeup and perfume.

Wow, I never expected to garner so much attention on the subject. So many replies with great advice, thank you.

The next day I wore my hair almost totally feminine and wore my most girly Hawaiian shirt. I wanted to wear my lavender crew neck, ribbed knit sweater that I wore on the drive to my Mother's, but it was wrinkled. My sister started discussing thrift stores and I relayed a story about one I went to that had such a large supply of nice women's clothes, and the evening gowns were so cheap, yet in perfect condition. She didn't miss a beat and didn't address me shopping in the women's clothes section, but then she also knows I buy all of my wife's clothes. She probably has a pretty good suspicion, particularly since I used to steal her clothes when I was young. She must have noticed the wrinkles, the stretching, etc. in her clean clothes. And, her panty hose was always disappearing...

My family is not aware of my CDing that I ever told them, but I wouldn't doubt that they suspect. My daughter, a tween, knows that I shop for her mom and her and we admire clothes together, get our nails done, etc. On the drive there I wore a sweater, women's sunglasses and my hair was very feminine. I think she knows I'm different, but hasn't contemplated me being fully dressed. I suspect that she will wonder later. If she snoops around, the jig will be up. She would love me anyway. She might even like to go shopping together. The bra comment was genuine, but she could get used to it. I would tell her as we are very close, but her mother would shoot me after she poured gasoline all over me and lit it.

When the conversation happened, I was so taken aback that I couldn't decide whether to address it or not, nor could I address it without becoming very embarrassed and would not have had a coherent rebuttal. My sister is a loud mouth and would have argued with me about which bathroom to use, gay rights, transgendered, etc. I can't change her mind anyway. My nephew is cool and might even be one of us.

If my family suspects, so be it. I wish they could know and accept me, but even if they suspect and don't ostracize me, I guess I have to be happy with that. I would love to educate them on transgendered, but them knowing about me would not change their minds, just as it has not changed my wife's.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

As far as "transgender" or "trans" people using the women's restroom, until the point that they have had SRS and legally become (and look like) women, most folks view them as men in women's clothing (or wolves in sheep's clothing).

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*best Columbo voice* Just one more thing how would you know what parts I have unless you looked?



You all can stand silent and say "gee my family wouldn't understand" and you would be absolutely correct...they won't because no one takes the time to explain. You're scared, I get that. And luckily you have the ability to disappear. I don't. So when you all get to discuss with your family transgenderism or equality and you don't you implicitly agree with what they are saying.

I am having GRS in the near future so it has come up with many CLOSE friends. Strange thing is they didn't know I had not already HAD the surgery. They assumed I was complete. Guess that's why no one complained when I use the women's restroom huh?

I have been here for a long time, I have ranted, raved, screamed, begged, pleaded and coaxed the Non-TS part of this community to see that the issues aren't just TS related but they effect you too. So many want to be "out" and yet they can't or won't tell their family about it. If you don't talk about it they will think everything is just fine. You think they will disown you if you tell them? Just think how much worse it can be if they find out through another channel. Pre-emptive works better than defense.

Changing the general public's perception won't happen without someone (and I guess that would be the transsexuals) standing up for themselves. No on gets anything without asking.