Top Secret (DBR)

My kids have not talked to me in several years (but that is another story). My wife has given me feedback that both kids (boy and girl both engineers) are concerned that my dressing may impact their ability to get jobs that require security clearances. My expectation is that this is a non-issue, particularly in light of Marcelle/Isha's experiences with the military.

Have any of you or your families had issues with security clearances as a result of your dressing or someone in your immediate family dressing?

Thanks for your feedback,

Robyn

Hi Robyn,
I have not had any such experiences.
Di

Back in the early 1980's I was a distant observer to seeing a man be "outed" as a gay by a vindictive fellow worker. He worked with a large technology company and had a security clearance. The Feds interviewed all his friends and his ex-wife and the poor guy lost his security clearance and his job.

I thought we had moved well beyond that sort of nonsense. Where is the security risk?

The President has issued executive orders that gays, lesbians and transgenders are to be protected from discrimination, and, that order is applicable to government contractors. I think your kids are overreacting. The real thread to security is when something that is illegal or immoral is being hidden. In the days of old when being gay or lesbian was frowned upon or worse, people hid their sexuality. That caused a threat of termination, so they employee became vulnerable.

The real issue here is your kids perspective on dad's cross dressing. If your son or daughter has fear there is some sort of negative consequences due to a cross dressing father, then they are causing the potential security breech. Frankly, if your cross dressing is out in the open and viewed as just something my father does, then a person cannot that information against them.

When I applied for a job with the National Security Agency decades ago, its background check was extensive and thorough. Various federal agents did go to all my former employers and schools to do checks. An agent went through my apartment building ringing everyone doorbells and asking questions. The agents never told them why. I was asked sometimes years later, "What the heck did you do? A federal agent was here asking questions about you!" It can be somewhat of a shock when an agent from the Central Intelligence Agency stops buy to ask questions.

I did background investigations for a different federal agency as a part of my duties. The one thing that did get people fired or not hired was making false statements to a federal agency. It could be something as simple as denying a speeding ticket or DUI or a misdemeanor arrest. The issue was whether or not the employee or potential employee was truth in his or her answers. If you lied you were booted or not hired because you demonstrated you were a risk because if you lie about something inconsequential, then you'll lie about the big things.

Tell your kids, if they are asked if dad is likes to wear women's clothing to just acknowledge it. If the background investigator checks social media and sees activity on your son's or daughter's social media accounts about cross dressing dad, and, they deny it, they should not be hired. I had people fired for less.

It won't effect their clearance in the slightest. Unless you are in some strange situation where your kids could be blackmailed into sharing secrets because of your dressing, which is highly unlikely. Security only cares about the risks to the classified data. Just tell them never to lie on clearance paperwork. Security is religious about keeping info on clearance paperwork confidential, so your secrets won't get out either. No need to bring it up, if not asked.

Stephanie has pretty much summed up exactly what i'd have said: if it's out in the open it's not a problem; secrets are security risks, and so are lies associated with for example blackmailable material. If they tell-all, there's no traction for subversion.

Robyn,
The circumstances would be most unlikely nowdays, the whole spectrum is recognised and accepted by new legislation , we aren't criminals !

The question could be who checks the checkers ? CDing cuts across society no particular social group has exclusive rites !

Robyn,

Stephanie and Daphne are on the money. I would also take the statement from your wife with a grain of salt. Maybe this is a great excuse to get ahold of your kids. That would be wonderful. I know how dearly you love them, and how proud you are of them.

You need to come up for dinner some time. How about the 18th. Meghan is going to try to make it around 7, and we can grab a drink over at the Fox afterward before heading home!

Nope, it's a non-issue as others have said. Besides how could you change the past?:)

How horribly selfish of them.

Hi Robyn

I am not sure about the US but in Canada clearances are about the ability to be compromised. If your kids can be blackmailed about your dressing ... it could. I am out publicly so blackmail was not an issue

I had security clearance for years working on missile parts. They took me finger prints but didn't check for panties.

Also they never knew that at that point I had been cross-dressing for twenty years.

When I went through the security clearance process no one I new was ever contacted by anyone.

They're only looking for illegal activity.

Unless they find out your a spy dressed as a women!

Back in the 1990's, a sibling of mine in the military needed a Top Secret clearance and he got it without my dressing being a problem. And I had to pass a background check for my job in order to handle controlled substances and narcotics and again, no problem.

I worked in military intelligence and was in charge of processing security clearances and Stephanie nailed it dont lie about it (if your not hiding it then the enemy cant use it as leverage ) it would be more of a problem if you were trying to get one (even though now d@ys its not supposed to matter it does in the aspect that it may be used to blackmail you). Above all dont lie about it.

Really?? Because that's what I want in people who are charged with the security and defence of my society, people who are unwilling to be tolerant and accepting of diversity.

Time for your children to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions, decisions and lives and stopped trying to tell others (i.e. you) how to live theirs just so they can benefit.

Something doesn't make sense.

What you do or don't do does not impact your children's jobs. They can tell their employers if need be that their father is TS (I'm assuming this per the last two letters of your forum name) and being TS is not illegal or immoral. As engineers, your children are capable enough to research the issue. A reason for their reluctance to tell employers (in the course of a security clearance) might be a belief that outing you would harm you, assuming there are people in your own profession that you do not want to come out to? So if they are protecting you then why are they not talking to you. Even if they are not protecting you and they haven't done the research to find out that your gender status does not impact them, then again why are they keeping their distance. It's not as if staying away will make you stop dressing and stop being their parent.

If they are choosing to not talk to you because of emotional events leading to broken relationships, then I'm wondering if your wife is wanting to protect your feelings by saying their reason is a fear of background checks. This, I suppose would be easier to hear than their not wanting you in their lives?

Is there something you can do to repair the relationships? You mentioned it was another story and you don't need to get into it here, but have you tried to reach out to them? One of my sons didn't talk to me for three years. He had taken his father's side in the divorce. I can't tell you how painful it was to keep reaching out to him with no response, but my SO and others kept telling me to not give up and so I kept on even though I felt like I wanted to crawl under a rock and die each time there was silence on his end. Eventually he did respond and our relationship has been strengthening ever since ... slowly, but it keeps getting better.

Thank you for bringing the kids' ignorance up, Reine. I too have an engineering degree and one of the first tenents you learn in your education is to gather as much info on your subject or task as you can. If the kids are this ignorant or chose not to believe researched data, then I would have to question their engineer training and skill.

No, there is something else going on here between the kids and Robyn that makes the kids blame dad's cross dressing.
But as Robyn has said, that's another story.

Robyn:

Since your kids are engineers, maybe they can relate to Lynn Conway's life story. Lynn is a world class electrical engineer, college professer, transexual and trans advocate who, among other things, was honored at the White House by President Obama.

Lynn's truly amazing life story is on her website. This is really content rich, tells about being on the bleeding edge of computer innovation at IBM in the 60s, being outted and fired, and then slowly rebuilding life and career as a stealth TS woman, until finally coming out and living her life fully.

See her amazing story here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html

Hope this helps your kids understand more and not feel ashamed.

Rhonda

The only reason stuff like this raises eyebrows is if you're trying to keep it secret. If you're gay or Crossdresser, etc, and trying to keep it secret, it becomes something that can be used as leverage like blackmail. At least, that's the way it was in the 80s when I had Top Secret.

Of course, my neighbor the drug dealer got the shit scared out of him when the FBI was checking on mine.

Thank you all for your comments. Now to figure out how to share those comments with kids who are not talking.

Oh boy, I've always wanted to tell this story: Back in the early 1970's I was in the Army and doing a job that required a certain level of clearance. In the place I was, they distinguished between "book stores" and "book shops." Book shops sold novels. Book Stores sold porn. I was in a book store browsing the "Tranny porn" section when my company First Sergeant walked in. He saw me and came over and said,

"You shouldn't be here looking at this stuff. CID watches all the book stores and if they see you here you could lose your clearance."
"Why's that, Top?"
"Because enemies could use the fact you look at this stuff to blackmail you"
"For what?"
"They could threaten to expose you."
"And?"
"And you'd lose your clearance."
"So CID would revoke my clearance because enemies might blackmail me by threatening to tell CID and get my clearance revoked?"
"Yes."

I did leave the book store, but it was to go to a book shop and pick up a copy of Catch-22. I had a sudden urge to re-read it. ;) (No, I didn't ask the First Sergeant why *he* was in the book store.)

Jennie, we're digressing but girl do i have some stories about the stupidities of security systems and personnel, along the same lines. I remember having a pair of lovely tibetan chimes confiscated at an airport checkpoint while the person in front carried a bottle of wine through. I could have a real rant about these guys and the loopholes they won't see that go with the pointless restrictions they enforce. Anyway, the moral is don't hide your CD, wear it proudly, out in the world.

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Originally Posted by Robynts

Thank you all for your comments. Now to figure out how to share those comments with kids who are not talking.

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So just to make sure I have it right, are they not talking to you about the CDing specifically, or are they not talking to you at all.

If they don't want to talk about the CDing but they are talking to you about other things, I wouldn't show them this thread. You might instead show them this link:

https://news.clearancejobs.com/2011/...arance-issues/

Note, there is no mention of transgenderism and this should dispel their fears that your situation would impact them. Or, they can use the information in the link to do their own further research. They might even call the federal agency directly and ask?

But if they're not talking to you at all (which is how I read your OP), then I wouldn't jump right in with telling them the CDing is OK. I would try to reestablish communication first through letters, or birthday cards, emails, phone calls, letting them know you love them and you want a relationship with them. And then build slowly from there. Once you are on speaking terms again, then you could ask if they have concerns about your lifestyle and if the answer is positive, you could give them the above information.

If it helps, I know two TG people (one CDer, one a TS who transitioned on the job) with black world jobs. Neither had an issue with their clearances.

A parent's being TG will have no bearing on their children's clearances unless it is felt that they can be blackmailed about it. the fact that they don't even bother to communicate their concerns to you directly means that it shouldn't be a concern of yours.

My understanding is the they don't want anyone to be compromised for attempting to hide their CDing. So, if you lie about CDing, you lose your security clearance. If you're open about it, you can't be compromised.

I don't understand how any of this affects your children, but people have been fired for less.

Sounds to me more like they don't want 'their world' knowing about you, because they are embarrassed and or ashamed of you.

What charming little individuals. Cut 'em out of your Will and get a puppy instead :)

Or better still try and get on Oprah and out them as narrow-minded little twerps.

Well Nikki,

You summed up the situation with my kids in far fewer words than I could have, but for the part where my wife is more supportive of the kids than me.

I don't even think that is possible...crime, bad credit etc yes...but this sounds like they are just angry about something else..

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Originally Posted by CONSUELO

Where is the security risk?

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In a conversation that I had with an individual who had a very high security clearance, he told me that the "risk" was blackmail. He told me of some of the questions that they asked him about his ex-. When he told them that was going too far, they told him that their main concern was blackmail; that made sense to him.

But as someone else mentioned, if it's out in the open, then it's no secret and blackmail is off of the table.

Lacy PJs

Transgenderism is not a crime nor a mental illness.
Therefore it poses no risk to people applying for security clearance.

Your 'feedback' is either from gross mal-information or general ignorance.

I still have a current "Secret" security clearance, I need one to do my job in the military.
My cross-dressing has not changed that.
:)

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Originally Posted by Smile

Transgenderism is not a crime nor a mental illness.
Therefore it poses no risk to people applying for security clearance.

Your 'feedback' is either from gross mal-information or general ignorance.

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I can't speak for your country but here in the US one of their biggest fear with someone with top secret clearance is their vulnerability to be blackmailed as so many here have already stated. It doesn't have to be a crime to serve as a tool used by someone else to coerce, frighten and manipulate that person to do their bidding. Having an ongoing affair could be blackmailable! One's special secrets may be enough to provide leverage to the bad guys to try to use that to blackmail someone. That is why they want all secrets on the table and out in the open before entrusting top secret information to someone with a job to do.

I am long time proof being CD/TG/TS does not make a problem with US clearances. When I was in US Navy, 1969-74, aboard Missile Submarines, and had a Top Secret + clearance. When living off base, I experimented with dressing and driving around. Caught by a local cop, after awkward explanations let go. He did notify my base CO. I had to visit Psychs and security. Explained all as just isolated CD and no gay activity. They said OK to all.

After getting out went to work as a contractor to US DoD, still needed Top Secret. Visited Pyschs and security again. One in security was in NCIS and was familiar with me from then. Again NO problem. Kept clearance until I retired in 2011 both as a contractor and later as a US DoA employee.

Always tell people security doesn't care as long as you don't hide anything.

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Originally Posted by Marcelle

Hi Robyn

I am not sure about the US but in Canada clearances are about the ability to be compromised. If your kids can be blackmailed about your dressing ... it could. I am out publicly so blackmail was not an issue

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Marcelle nailed it. This is exactly same for US security clearances. If the investigation uncovers that you crossdress, it will be an issue if it is not out in the open.

By the way, in addition to concern about being blackmailed, they also look for past criminal activity or relationships to felons, unexplained foreign travel, contact with suspected terrorists, relatives in foreign countries, questionable alcohol or drug use, indebtedness, mental illness. Any red flags could result in denial if deemed to be a security risk. Depending on security level, they will check driving records, arrest records, past residences, schools, past employment, neighbors, references.

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Originally Posted by Smile

Transgenderism is not a crime nor a mental illness.
Therefore it poses no risk to people applying for security clearance.

Your 'feedback' is either from gross mal-information or general ignorance.

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Transgenderism is not a mental illness but behavior like crossdressing could be used to blackmail people in sensitive positions and would be reason for a security clearance to be denied - if the crossdressing is secret.

In general, any serious emotional, mental or psychological conditions can prevent granting a security clearance. The issue is whether the individual's condition causes, or may cause, poor judgment or unreliable, untrustworthy, or dysfunctional behavior. Many applicants are denied Top Secret or Secret clearances due to mental illness, but some who have a diagnosed mental illness do receive clearances.

Hi Robyn, your PM box is full so I'm copying this message here-

I made one of my typically glib replies in this thread about your kids not speaking to you. I'm not going to amend my post, as it's already history, but I'd like to apologize to you for giving the impression that I might trivialize your situation.

My own birthdaughter (I was 24, it was an open adoption, I've met her a number of times and got along extremely well) doesn't communicate with me more than at most once a year and routinely ignores email, presents, invitations, etc. It sucks - I adore her and have no other children. But she hasn't actively rejected me in the way that your children have, so I cannot really know what you're going through - I can only imagine that it is deeply saddening and distressing, and I sincerely hope that one day they will get over themselves and return to the fold. I'm sorry too that your wife sides with them - but then most moms perhaps would.

Genuine best wishes for the future-

Hugs, nikki

If you are looking to protect yourself, don't lie about *anything* when going for a security clearance. I used to work in a place with Nukes. My security clearance was held up for a couple of months because the Da of my best friend in HS used to be in the IRA.

Funny thing is, if you do that you also give your kids MORE room. If you are out & proud, there is nothing to leverage.