Printable View
Hi, Im Robin!
I think I should start with an apology, when the 'pink fog' hit me (hard) 18 mo ago I was a 'kitten on catnip', I've grown a lot and now I'm a much older cat...I'm beginning to 'get it' 😑
I'm only dipping a serious toe in this water but is presenting a gender fluid a typical prerequisite to TG?
To all my CD friends and fans reading this in the What's New link....ya, I'm still the raging pink sasquatch you know and love 😉
Not sure what you mean be presenting as Gender Fluid as a prerequisite. Most of my Gender Fluid friends are considered TG, but they stay that way. If you mean as a start to later transition and living full time as a female or male. I can't think of any that started that way.
Since you posted this in the TS forum, I assume that is what you mean.
I would hypothesize this is more likely with "late-onset" folks. I could certainly place myself in the category of going from male to cd to genderfluid to trans, and I've resonated to so many of your posts.
No I was all or nothing kinda girl. In between or going back and forth was not me.
But have nothing against those that are. Seeing it a lot with younger people and admire them for it
Robin... Call it what you will ... I did a lot of practicing at home before stepping out the door in a big way. When I did it was essentially all or nothing on the path forward. Commit and go when you are ready and take all the time you need to get there. What I have learned is that full time is vastly different from before and any in between time I had before finally coming out in the workplace.
Develop your plan, evaluate, test the waters, and only when you are ready make the jump. When you finally jump own it; own it and manage it don't let it manage or own you.
Cheers... Jennifer
Hi Robin,
When I first came to this site (general site not the TS section) I assumed I was TG/CD as it is all I knew and I was in a state of chaos as things came crashing down on me. I continued with that assumption, pursued therapy, began exploring the world dressed and grew. Within a year I knew it was much more than just dressing in women's clothing and began to consider myself what I termed gender fluid in that I presented male most of the time (including at work) but expressed my female side most of my friends, family and the world (for the most part). When I came out at work I still considered myself "gender fluid" as I presented as a woman two times a week and a man three times a week. This lasted about three weeks when I realized that I was a woman and went full time.
All this to say, I don't see this as a graduated requirement to being TS or some sort of gateway entry. I was always TS and I think deep down I knew that but 50 plus years of being a man was no easy thing to eliminate and as such I see this more as letting him go slowly until I was comfortable enough to remove him from life support and become the woman I was always meant to be.
Cheers
Marcelle
Thank you for the replies ladies!
Maybe 'prerequisite' wasn't the right word, it's not like this is a degree course I suppose, or is it?
I know everyone's journey is unique.
Thank you again for the replies, I'm starting to get it, I know I need to take the advice and weight each piece and apply as appropriate for ME.
If you meant as others have said. Presenting as male some and female some except for work, most have to do that until can go full time. Most I know as Gender Fluid may do mix and/or androgynous, but have NO intention at present as going completely one way or other. That is what I understand of being Gender Fluid.
I presented as male at work until my switch to full time. Period of 1-2 years. Of course I wasn't overtly male. Longer hair may have added some style to it - pierced ears - could see the results of electrolysis - HRT could not tell how obvious that was, I was sure my budding breasts would poke out a little too much at times.
NO way back then, 1970s, could do the male or female some at work. Even when I told work about change, we had discussions on the legal aspect of working as female until SRS.
Attachment 259905
New company ID pic, except for the makeup and jewelry, this is how I looked near the end of my male days. Had to get a new ID, legal name change so that really put it out there.
Every path is valid. Every path is unique. What matters is that you end with self actualization. I have only known a few that openly stated they were gender non-conforming in some manner and then fully transitioned. One of my best friends did as he didn't believe transition was possible. But it is your story, so you get to own it and proceed however you please.
I present just about all the time as a female except at my teenage daugthers school ,this is more for there safety as I don't want them bullied for who I am
I think the nature of this forum draws a lot of the CDers who are in the dual gender/gender fluid column. I myself am there. I used to think to myself what does it all mean, am I this or that. Lately, I try not to stress it. I do not present in an androgynous manner, although internally, I often relate as much to women if not more. For me, I have not ever got to a point where I feel I AM a woman, as much like them, maybe more like them at times, but not actually identifying as one. Internally, I am not static, so I do not know if gender fluid is always a good term that would describe me. There are times where perhaps I feel caught dead in the middle of the two. But I tend to flow a bit from one side and the other.
From an acceptance issue, I imagine it is or can be a path that some TS have gone through. Wherever we are on the TG scale, acceptance of ourselves is always a tough thing. I now just feel how I feel, not attempting to direct it, or deny it. My life currently is livable albeit frustrating at times presenting as typical male to the outside world. Having thought about the what ifs of transitioning, currently, to me it seems to be a harder road than the one I am currently taking. If it changes it changes, but for now I am only concerned with how I am feeling today. I can't predict where I will be tomorrow or the next day, so I do not try.
I am gender fluid and do consider myself a TG. But thats what it is and the TG spectrum is very wide. I think the TG covers crossdressers all the way down to TS. But all of us gender fluids are TG's and that is the T in LBGT, it covers all of us TG and TS's. I think gender fluid is just what it is and of course we are TG's by default.
I think "precursor" was the word you wanted. A precursor often, but not always, happens before an event (e.g. chest pains before a heart attack, tremors before a major earthquake, cross dressing before transition). A prerequisite must happen beforehand (algebra before calculus, arraignment before conviction, sex before pregnancy)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin414
Wow Kath, thank you, that kinda stuck a chord!
This thread could benefit from the application of the forum definitions sticky.
Robin - sorry, but I still find your OP incomprehensible. There are too many alternate readings. Let me answer what I *think* you might be asking, first by deconstructing and paraphrasing.
So: "Are transsexuals typically gender fluid before they know they are transsexual?"Quote:
"presenting as a gender fluid" ... translate to "identifying as gender fluid"
"a typical prerequisite to TG" ... translate to "come before identifying as transsexual" (this is, after all, the TS forum)
Whew!
And the answer is "Often, yes - sort of. But not really." How useful is THAT? Not very, I suppose.
Transsexuals often struggle to conceptualize what they experience. They may latch onto other identities for a while, abandoning them because - or when - they do not really fit. "Because" is rather easy, a common transsexual's experience being the immediate realization that they are unlike, say, the crossdressers they meet and recognizing themselves just as quickly in the transsexuals they meet. Labeling themselves crossdressers in this case, is a transitory use of an inapplicable term. "When" is a little more subtle. There are several common paths to transsexual self-understanding. One is emergence (often through a crisis). As it becomes ever-clearer what their true nature is, a given term or identity that once seemed to fit no longer does. The debate that goes on around this is progression vs. clarity, becoming versus realizing, hiding versus knowing. Ad nauseum.
I think the latter debate is easily resolved if you accept the premise that one's sense of their sex is innate, just as is sexuality. (And I don't mean this in a binary sense, necessarily.) By extension, someone who, by whatever path, finally realizes they are cross-sexed, hasn't created that identity. I.e., no pre-requisites need apply.
Anyone with the barest of logic skills will realize that there is an ex post facto problem here, at least for some scenarios. It would be another kind of logical error to take that to conclusions of tautology, but focusing on transsexuals only for the moment, at least illustrates the special difficulty involved in emergence, which is trying to be - and explain - what you do not understand.
I'll skip the of-the-moment political and cultural uses of "transgender" in the discussion as irrelevant to the assumed meaning of the question except to point up that some of us not only take issue with the term as conventionally defined but reject any association with it. The only reason I mention this at all is because the OP's original formulation uses the term.
Gender fluid seems to be something many seem to identify with but that is tg just as a crossdresser or a ts is. I never had any thoughts in that since I always knew that I was a woman. Being in between had no place in my identity, but there was a time in my transition where I was at a very awkward place where I appeared to others as somewhere on the spectrum. I know some who identify somewhere in the middle between male and female who eventually transition completely and many who like to be somewhere they feel more comfortable. It varies with the individual.
It is also very difficult for some to actually figure out where they belong so they try gender fluid as a testing ground. There is no correct path here.
This is a Tricky one for sure,, An I already know I will catch it for this,, But in my mind I think we just try and be SOMETHING before we get to where we are going, Kinda half and half. Why not try and fit somewhere? Hell we gotta be something before we can be complete, So we say were this and that today, And just wait for more results to happen.
Hell you can't just go out and change your clothes and expect everyone to think your female over night? It takes a LONG TIME to undo all the Damage Testosterone has done to us, An sometimes it never happens. So as for ME, I will do it my own way and skip the part of Looking like some kind of Dam Fool out trying to trick
somebody and just fooling myself. Anyway there are sooooooooo many ways to get somewhere,, Or No where,, Depending on what and how you want it.
For me when the whole thing took that turn to get really serious all that dress up crap Stopped. An I will be Dammed if I am going out and trying to look like anything that but what I really am no matter what I have on.
I'll never forget around 2 or 3 years ago another chic on here was in transition and was on here all the time and a very controversial person to say the least, An it was Halloween and she dressed up as a Cowboy and said that was the first time she wore a Male costume in years,, But she also said that this was the first time she realized she couldn't look like a Man if she tried,, Even with that Cowboy out fit on she looked Female all the way,, So what I am trying to say is all of us in the middle are not in the middle by choice.
We are just pausing here for a little while till we get our Moment like the Cowboy,, When you realize your there and you don't have to pretend anymore. But where we are now is just in Transit to another place,, People don't stop this journey, Life stops it, That's why I said first and foremost once you come accept what and who you are and why you are here, That is step one, Next step is get stable , Job ,Money, Then continue on from there.
I'm no expert for sure, But I have Logged a many of hour here and not just looking at pictures, I have read and read and followed people that have came and left and came back and left again. I have seen alot in the years I have been here. And for all you thinking about all of this Madness and want to jump on this train and become female and take Hormones to look female and get all the benefits from them so you will look better in your fancy outfits, Let me be the first one to lay the Boom down on you,, Being Transgender, Transsexual,Or whatever you want to call us is the LEAST SEXUAL thing on the Planet !!!
I do this to LIVE, STAY ALIVE, And I may never look like a genetic female? But the Meds alone relieve the stress and discontent I feel in my brain from day to day, Before I thought I knew this and that ,, But I didn't know Nothing,Nothing until I went to the doctor and got a reality check for sure,, It is nothing like you think Not even close,, So to all who want to walk this path see my signature and heed that warning,,lol,,,
Stacy, you and several other members here in the TS section have made comments about the process of transitioning being difficult, grueling, brutal perhaps. (I am not saying you said all this), but you are mentioning it in general from your sig....I am not saying it is the wrong thing to do, it probably is the right thing to do. But- it does tend to have a pretty good scare factor to it. Maybe it should, IDK.... but when there are these dire warnings about the process being so long, hard, brutal, with many members losing so much... I can see many people trying to avoid transitioning like the plague. And then not doing so until it is a true matter of survival, as you say yourself, to live, to stay alive. Often times by that point though, much of life has been spent trying to avoid it, and wasting a lot of years still dealing with the gender turmoil, avoiding transition until there is literally nothing left of a person. Then the person likely thinks, I could have done this years ago and saved themselves so much struggle. It to me is such a catch 22.
Gendermutt,
Transitioning should have a huge freeking scare factor, it is long, hard, brutal. It's not something for the faint of heart or for those that are not quite sure if they are TS or not. It's not something to fool around with or toy with.
Yes there have been many warnings on here, "don't transition unless you have too" is a common one and is to be taken very seriously. Like you said lots of people lose everything, some people lose nothing but most likely you will end up in the middle and face some loses.
I lost my career and am still trying to rebuild, I planned, plotted and talked it out with my therapist for over a year before I could no longer take living the dual life and had to toss that one final grenade. While my employer was very supportive and we still talk regularly since I ran the Canadian operations of the company we ran out of work and I was laid off. What I did not anticiate was having to interview for jobs. And let me tell you there is nothing more discouraging than being passed over time and time again for jobs that you could do with your eyes closed. I have even had a couple of places come right out and say they did not hire me becuase I am trans..
So long story short, transitioning is damn f'in hard. Only do it if you absolutely have too!!
You better believe it's Scary, Hard, Grueling , Expensive, Not to mention all of the surprises that Pop up,, Yea you may be one of the ones that waste there life putting it off over and over who knows, But to jump in without at least having the Money to survive it without having it to hard to handle is Insane.
Hey even with me,, I put it off over and over and to tell you trhe truth it never crossed my mind to transition before because I stayed to Drunk to even think about it, But I had to face it all at once when the Whisky wasn't working anymore,, Ether stop drinking or Die, All that Booze caught up with me and about 5 of my friends died all in one year,, Some older some younger but never the less Dead. So I was on Deck,,Next,,My Turn, Not social drinking, Power drinking everyday, So I was drunk even when I woke up in the morning from the night before, So no time or didn't have the mind to think about it, I knew something wasn't right but what I never knew?
I had already had my own Bizzness so naturally I had the upper hand on that , But still to come out Smoking in front of all the Half wit Drunk Rednecks here and just start presenting female wasn't even an option. I had and have to be VERY VERY careful around here for sure. I put it on them so slow and stealthy that they can't hardly see it coming or do and don't know what it is or just can't put there figure on it,lol,,,
Yall see what I mean with this New Bill down here that they passed about LGBT and how they can refuse service, Yea tell me about it,, So I have little contact as I can with most and just do my thing and bounce. Even then I get the Crazy Looks sometime in full Man Mode Trying to Look Butch is getting harder and harder. But I am hoping to wait it out and then see where I am after,, Most people don't say much but Hell you don't know whats said after you leave. I hate to scare folks and say this and that about Transition but it's not all the same everywhere but somethings never change no matter where you are,, Just be carefull.
I never identified as gender fluid. There was a period of time where I didn't feel like I knew what my identity was, but it was never "fluid".
The few genuinely gender fluid people I've met IRL have tended to stay that way.
Damn Stacy, you switch back and forth between crazy nutty and crazy insightful quicker than an alley cat in a Koi pond.
This girl walks it like she talks it folks. She doesn't claim to be anything other than exactly what she is and she's braver than a lot of people here including me. Going out 'dressed' is not the measure of a (wo)man. Rather it's the work you do inside to sort out who you are and the steps you take to address it. When you stop pretending and just start being real.
Are you gender fluid? Are you headed for transition? Do you wish you could transition but you can't for some reason? None of this really matters to anyone except yourself. If the bitter trannies on this forum rise up and anoint you to be the tranniest of all, it means nothing to anyone except you. The people on this board who have transitioned are only here to offer advice based directly on their experience. Stacy's respect for the process has been earned the hard way.
Personally I'm a huge fan of the gender fluid types and I would have loved to have been able to stop there. This life isn't for everyone, but if it's for you then don't waste time. You gotta do what you gotta do.
Thank you all again for the feedback!
How about an analogy to maybe clarify my OP a little bit?
Suppose you're in your houseboat docked off the coast of Florida and you turn in for the night, a storm comes along and sets you adrift...to...Paris?
Hey, I've been there, it's a nice place (sure, I don't speak the language and the culture is different but I'd love to learn).
Half way between here and there you realize your boat has enough fuel to take you the rest of the way...or turn back...or end up in the Bahamas or something ��
I'm not looking for THE answer, I know I'm the only one who can answer that for myself and being the TS forum I already know everyone's personal answer
I think what I'm really asking "Anyone been in the middle of the Atlantic in a house boat contemplating where to call home?" ��
here's your analogy in it's nutshell; the North Atlantic Drift will take you to Europe, but if you're far enough South there's a current from the Azores to the Bahamas/onto Carribean, but you might also get stranded in the Sargasso Sea with neither currents nor winds to take you anywhere.
If hormones are the only way to know if you're really wanting to live in Paris, and a gateway to learn the French culture, then it's time to parlay with the pirates.
Personally though, I took Concorde, and now it's decommissioned so there's no going back. ;-)
Hi Robin,
I think the overriding sentiment using your analogy would be:
If truly belonged on your house boat docked off the coast of Florida, nothing would keep you from returning to Florida once all is said and done. If you truly belonged in Paris you would end up there irrespective of storms, pirates or even the zombie apocalypse. Once in Paris you might have to learn the language and culture but until you come to realize you truly belong in Paris . . . you would only be mimicking those around you. Once you realized you did belong . . . well . . . just saying nothing would make you leave.
Should you wind up halfway between the two on some Caribbean island and find it is a comfortable place to be . . . well . . . that is where you would stay with coconut milk, fish stew and a volleyball named Wilson . . . WILSON!!!! :) All this to say, there is no one answer fits all . . . only yours IMHO.
Cheers
Marcelle
Robin, to modify your analogy, I always thought I was American. I mean, I thought I understood what Americans were saying, for the most part. I thought I got the culture, and that we were all using the same references.
Eventually, I started vacationing in France. I had always been interested in the culture, and had periodically owned/worn a beret, but I was shocked by how much more comfortable I was there. Not in an easily explainable way, but deep down, things were just easier. It felt like home. So I moved there.
While I was in the process of packing up my stuff in the US, I started talking more directly to my old American friends about culture. We had never really talked about it before; we all ASSUMED we were coming from the same place. Turns out we weren't, and that we couldn't have been more different. Turns out I was never American - I was always French.
So, I guess what I'd say is that you are not on a ship, lost at sea, being carried somewhere by forces unseen. You're already from somewhere, and your job is to hopefully figure out where that is before you die in a strange land, never having known home. Take ownership of your identity, and do whatever you can to figure it out.
If that's visiting every country in the world, great. If that's going to the place you always wanted to but could never afford or were scared of, do that. If that's buying an island and trying to start your own country, then good luck but you gotta try. Just remember that this doesn't average, and that there's a difference between identifying clearly as two things and identifying as something in-between. You can't create the experience of living in Kansas by spending half your time in LA and half in New York, no matter how often you make the flight.
The only fluid in these analogies is the ocean. People don't live in the ocean, fish do. People enjoy it for a while, may travel over it, but eventually have to get to land. If you have to swim to live, stay in the water. Whatever you do, don't shake your fins in rage at the people on land. They'll just stick you in an aquarium.
Hmm, but then there are aquatic mammals, amphibians, birds that never come to land ... Such a SPECTRUM! :gayflag:
Megan, thank you for addressing my post. I have "considered it" but the consideration, the thinking about it always led to the same spot for me. That transitioning seemed harder than staying as I am. Staying as I am isn't always easy, but I guess the way I am looking at it, so long as it is livable for me, it is the better option to stay put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan G
I draw a weird parallel to my 1st marriage, which ended but not due to gender related issues. (I was in such deep denial and not CDing). It was never a good marriage. But, I took my vows seriously. Slowly over time, it just kept getting worse and worse, until I had nothing left to give. Now I look back and think that it was all just a big waste of time for me. I spent years being miserable. My life toward the end seemed just one of survival to get through the day. Had I only accepted that it was a failed marriage and ended it years before I did, it would have saved me so much misery. I became a BETTER father after the divorce. I became a better person all around. On the other hand, and I think this is true of my current wife, who was in a somewhat similar situation with her 1st marriage, it isn't the misery factor which prompts a change, you have to be ready to make that change. I guess I wasn't ready. My current wife tried once to end her marriage but wasn't ready to. Even though when she ended the ending, she wasn't going back to her ex out of love or happiness. She just couldn't handle the ending of the marriage at that time. He tortured her both times, the 1st, she couldn't handle. The second time, she was ready for his torture, and survived it.
There are some who are TS and either have or are transitioning that were in a similar place as I am I would imagine, but there are others who stay at this in between place forever. I am not predicting an outcome. I am just living life where currently it is in the better place for me to be. I could very well be where I need to be gender wise. But, for those who are TS and transition, when the time is right it works out right. But just about all say they eventually realize TS is not something you become, it is something you always are, or were. Years of suffering and misery would have been avoided IF ONLY they were ready to pull the pin.
Hindsight always seem so perfect. But it's not. Chances are were any of us tossed back into our original circumstances and time the outcome would be exactly the same. Just as with your first marriage, GM, our ethics, upbringing, social milieu, religion, etc. all have their place in how and why things take the path they do. This is far deeper than a simple lesson learned situation. When we advise others to jump ship and shortcut the process, sometimes we just find that we are undercutting their values.
Like you, from one perspective I spent far too much time in a failed marriage. 20 years! I know that at the end I had concluded that I couldn't live with myself unless I had tried and exhausted every possibility to salvage things. I did that. Unfortunately, it also took me many years to really understand where my responsibilities were in the situation. I had to change to get to the point where I could actually try – really try. It was probably too late anyway and there are circumstances which rendered my efforts irrelevant anyway I suppose. Hard lesson… But what are you going to do?