Maybe crossdressing isn't exactly so harmless....

Is crossdressing really harmless behavior? We all really want to believe so. I had an interesting point made to me this morning, when I again crossed messages with a woman on plentyoffish.com. I post on their forums pretty regularly, and she had read a comment by me on one of the dating threads. As my profile no longer includes any mention of crossdressing, the discussion eventually came around to why I'm not 'with girlfriend'. Of course, I said I'm dating, but haven't found anyone I would want anything serious with. And of course she accused me of the 'afraid to commit' thing that women always do. So I came out and told her that I crossdress. She responded with a 'I have to think about that', and I didn't hear from her for couple of days. I just assumed that she was just another woman that finds it a turn off, and that she didn't see any reason to continue the discussion. I was wrong, sort of; she did get back to me. No, I was partially right; she DID find it a huge turn off. But she made an important point. It's not exactly harmless. We just refuse to acknowledge who it's harming. It's harming US. If it gets in the way of the love we want, the woman we want in our lives, then it's harming US. We can deny it, and we'll justify it until we're blue in the face. But it eventually comes down to this, and I quote: "Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress? Because that's your choice. It may not seem like a fair choice, but life usually isn't fair, it certainly hasn't been to me. So it's really up to you. You're the one who's deciding that you want to spend the rest of your life in limbo like this. It's not us. It's you. You're only hurting yourself." So, harmless behavior? Maybe not.

Oh horse pucky.
Let me rephrase that "do you want this specific woman or the dress?"

So you are harming yourself (according to her) because you are being yourself and she finds that a turnoff, and you'd just be sooo mch better off with her. Lack of her in your life (on account of her not liking you) == self harm, in other words?

Yeah. I'd take a pass on that. That's some stunning level of conceit right there.

Lexi,
I would rather take the dress than someone who couldnt understand or deal with it.
I dont think you lost out on anything there at least

Vi:hugs:rginia

In some cases this is obviously true. Many find it gets in the way of building a relationship. Not always of course. Fortunately, I have the woman and the dress. The two don't meet, but they know and acknowledge each other and so far, it works for me. I'm happy with this arrangement and think I'm lucky.

(Ok, the dress doesn't acknowledge my wife or indeed know her, but you know what I mean.)

My question to you is, "would you consider it harmless to yourself if you stopped crossdressering?"

Just one persons opinion here but she sounds conceited.

Interesting point of view. Yes, our selection process for many things may in the end bring some negative side effects. I want to play golf on Saturday morning. Well, it is more expensive on the weekend than during the week. It is more crowded meaning that those 18 holes may take close to 5 hours, plus driving to and from plus maybe lunch or a quick drink after. It also takes 5 plus hours away from our weekend home time with family if we are in a relationship. It may also cause us to be tired and maybe not the life of the party for some special event planned after the golf.

Take it to dating. I am a visual person so what someone looks like, height, weight, length of hair, posture, face, figure and smile all come into play initially. Then I need to get to know the person inside and see if we click somehow by complimenting each other and also bringing interesting differences to the game. So, by being visual in my initial screening, I may actually screen out a lot of wonderful people too early from the selection process. However, just like food, music, art and women's looks and personalities we are attracted to what we are attracted to, so maybe our selection process may seem flawed to some, but to us it is not. Yes, it may take longer to find "the" one for us and for them, but that is what we need to understand and accept, or change our selection process.

So, in summary, a lot of our decisions major and minor can harm us by precluding better results based on a different filtering process. We accept and/or modify that process over our lives and live with the consequences of our decisions. If we crossdress we should know that that in itself automatically limits our attractiveness to potential partners. It does not make it impossible, it just makes it harder. I do not think that it harms us. More like it handicaps us in certain situations and that is different. Also, as has been pointed out by many here, and I agree, that crossdressing is not something that is easy to stop permanently with no negative repercussions to ourselves, like continual desires to dress, frustrations when we can't, irritable personality, and so on. That harms us and also potentially those around us.

Whether we will be in limbo the rest of our lives depends on many things, some under our control and others that are not. If society in general, including the lady who responded to you, would grow up and realize that what we do is not bad, then maybe we would not have to enter into that limbo. Maybe, the harm is being done to us because of our need to crossdress by those who refuse to try to understand, tolerate and accept it as something that happens in life and that can be successfully incorporated into others' lives too. All food for thought!

Personaly, I think I'd be better off with a dress than with someone who'd ask that. Maybe that will change one day maybe it won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

But she made an important point. It's not exactly harmless. We just refuse to acknowledge who it's harming. It's harming US. If it gets in the way of the love we want, the woman we want in our lives, then it's harming US. We can deny it, and we'll justify it until we're blue in the face. But it eventually comes down to this, and I quote: "Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress? Because that's your choice. It may not seem like a fair choice, but life usually isn't fair, it certainly hasn't been to me. So it's really up to you. You're the one who's deciding that you want to spend the rest of your life in limbo like this. It's not us. It's you. You're only hurting yourself." So, harmless behavior? Maybe not.

---

What she said is said from the perspective of a victim of an abusive society. "I get kicked around and abused, so why should you expect better?" That's what she is basically saying. The real question for her is "why does she simply accept, as a given, the abusive things that happen to her in her life?" Victims of abuse often go on to perpetrate it against others. And mark my words - what she told you was abusive. She invalidated you by telling you "there is something WRONG with you!"

There are a lot of cisgender people who will tell you that your CDing harms them in some way. The thing is - it doesn't - or if it does, it is harm from OTHER people reacting negatively to it. The problem is that gender variant people are different, and we live in a society that declares people who are different to be a "problem." "Oh, you're one of THOSE."

The thing is: there is nothing wrong with you! The problem is people like her! There is something terribly wrong with her!

The only thing wrong or harmful about crossdressing and other gender variant behavior is that society freaks out over it, and mistreats us because of it. THEY are the ones causing the problem, not us.

There is nothing wrong with any of you. They are the ones with the problem, not us. There's just a lot more of them than us. Nevertheless, they are enormously cruel, self-centered, and ultimately, helping perpetuate abuses that harm them as well. They want you to stop being who you are because it makes them "uncomfortable." Never mind how miserable it makes you - they don't care! They don't. Indeed, they assume being who you are is a choice. Most of us here will attest that if we had a choice, we sure as hell wouldn't have picked "trans!"

I hope that everyone here can get past shame that people like the woman in this thread dump on you. It is not your fault for being who you are, and doing what you do. It's their fault, for mistreating you because of it.

Many good points thrown out here. Here's my take on the cross dressing. I know I can stop at anytime. Yes I would miss it. I love my wife and she accepts Jaylyn, she accepts Jay the man she married also. She knows now that sometimes I need Jaylyn to come visit. I know I also need to be most of the time the man she married. My CD became easier after all the kids were gone and my wife lets Jaylyn come see her more. We agreed it didn't hurt our relationship. I agreed to fulfill my vows to the person I love and adore, the one I want to spend the rest of my life with, the one I found that completed my male half for me and the one that i wanted to be the mother of my kids. I give and take in our marriage. She gives and takes in our marriage. We talk and have heart to heart conversations regularly as we have had from the start. Is she my slave or puppet on a string? No Am I her king and she obeys all the time? No we give and take. We do have one thing though in that we love each other. Love is just what we do which is we see the best and worst in each other but we always talk about what is bothering us.
The woman you talked to that was so rude I bet is a very disturbed, lonely person that may or may not have had a bad experience with males. What she said shows more about why I wouldn't want to date her if I were in the market. I know there are lots of fish in the sea and one just has to keep fishing, being yourself, and you'll eventually find that keeper. You'll know it almost when you meet. Love is unconditional and love happens when we don't expect it. Keep looking, keep being yourself, doing what your doing and being honest with those you meet. You be the one upfront and let them see what they are getting and love will come your way one day. I know because I was pretty hard to tame, but love brought me to my knees. I wouldn't trade what I got for a million dollars or a million dresses.

hmmm pof has forums . I have never seen them and I have 2 profiles on there a male one and a female one..

The thing that is most harmful is to deny who one is. I would never want anything to do with that women. No person is worth having to change who you truly are.

Well that argument can be made about anything though, my sister tells me all the time it's harmful that I spend too much time on my computer . If you ask me I think that if a partner you just met is forcing you to decide between them or changing who you are then that might not be the right person for you. I've seen plenty of stories on here about girls who have found partners who are accepting or even encouraging of their CDing or are in DADT situations, so I think it doesn't need to be a choice you can have both.

Crossdressing doesn't keep one from finding love; It just makes it more of a challenge. But nothing is totally harmless IMO. I've hurt my feet from wearing heels for example…and be careful not to over-tighten that corset!

and this website is called plenty of fish? That girl is only one out of many schools :)

I'll take the dress over her.

Lexi,
It doesn't harm all women, some don't have a problem with CDing, some love their partners enough to see beyond it , the problem comes if there's a need to transition, then some real soul searching must be done.
My CDing has harmed me more than anyone else before I came to terms with it, living most of my life in solitary confinement with it, and almost ending my life through lack of acceptance .
Women who have that attitude need to open their minds , very few of us do it simply because we want to be pretty little things with a cute bow in our hair, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.
I've said this before but women will never fully understand because they don't have the dual trait in their brains, they can only realise how difficult it is for most men to overcome the stigma, shame and guilt that society inflicts on us because it's not normal behaviour for a man. The truth is it's normal behaviour if you happened to be wired that way !

I came very close to choosing the dress over my wife, put in those terms it just makes me look selfish, I only wish it was as easy as that ! Life is just a series of compromises which we all have to accept to get through it .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

"Do you want the woman, or do you want the dress?"

---

Do you want to be who you are, or do you want to be with someone who hates who you are?

So we can make a bargain: If they'll never wear pants, we'll never wear a dress [except in private].

I decline to "justify it 'til I'm blue in the face" -- it's just not a good look for me. ;) People will believe what they want to believe, but my experience is that crossdressing has brought me peace, solace and comfort. I (personally) don't believe that crossdressing harms me. I do believe that social unacceptance (OK, not really a word) of crossdressing has demonstrably caused harm in anxiety, suicide rates, divorces, etc.

If you want to believe what she said, go ahead. It can be a personal truth for you. I don't buy it.

Given the society and culture in which most of us live, there absolutely is a trade-off, or several, in crossdressing. For those of us who keep it relatively private I think it's pretty much just that, a trade-off or two rather than actual harm as I think of the term. Sure, we'd all like to have everything, a good career, a loving companion, accepting friends AND CDing all tied up in a neat little pink bow, but the reality is we have to make choices, having one thing at the cost of another. Does that inflict harm? Maybe some frustration, etc., but no real harm. It's when we succumb to the pink fog and try to break down the barriers and have it all that harm enters the equation. OBVIOUSLY I'M PAINTING WITH A BROAD BRUSH here and there are gurls who manage to pull it off, I guess, but they're rare as hen's teeth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulaQ

What she said is said from the perspective of a victim of an abusive society. "I get kicked around and abused, so why should you expect better?" That's what she is basically saying. The real question for her is "why does she simply accept, as a given, the abusive things that happen to her in her life?" Victims of abuse often go on to perpetrate it against others. And mark my words - what she told you was abusive. She invalidated you by telling you "there is something WRONG with you!"

There are a lot of cisgender people who will tell you that your CDing harms them in some way. The thing is - it doesn't - or if it does, it is harm from OTHER people reacting negatively to it. The problem is that gender variant people are different, and we live in a society that declares people who are different to be a "problem." "Oh, you're one of THOSE."

The thing is: there is nothing wrong with you! The problem is people like her! There is something terribly wrong with her!

The only thing wrong or harmful about crossdressing and other gender variant behavior is that society freaks out over it, and mistreats us because of it. THEY are the ones causing the problem, not us.

There is nothing wrong with any of you. They are the ones with the problem, not us. There's just a lot more of them than us. Nevertheless, they are enormously cruel, self-centered, and ultimately, helping perpetuate abuses that harm them as well. They want you to stop being who you are because it makes them "uncomfortable." Never mind how miserable it makes you - they don't care! They don't. Indeed, they assume being who you are is a choice. Most of us here will attest that if we had a choice, we sure as hell wouldn't have picked "trans!"

I hope that everyone here can get past shame that people like the woman in this thread dump on you. It is not your fault for being who you are, and doing what you do. It's their fault, for mistreating you because of it.

---

(Like) Really like your response Paula!

I would have politely said well you sound like a bitch so I don't need your opinion LOL

SM, I have been on POF off and on, when it was free. but i had no successes, never met anyone. At 62 this May, I have had only one real date in six years, and it went no where. The woman answered my last phone call, with, no hello, but just this, "do not call me when i am watching Criminal Minds! Click." I am at the point, where i may just forget about ever dating again. I can't handle the stress. I know of some guys who find mates from the Philippines, and I have heard that they are less prone to condemn Cding. I don't know. Jaylyn, You are fortunate to have found love , and a wife who will compromise. I have found that GG's have a hard time respecting non dressing men, but a very, very hard time respecting CD men. Maybe it is wisest to be alone. It does get lonely doing so much alone, but, may be better than tons of strife, arguing, and stress. I am older, and know that older GGs have a real problem with CDing in a man.

I agree with the others here. This woman is a master manipulator, and is using guilt and shame to try to get you to see the light and become "normal" so as to "fit in". Sure, and the urge to crossdress is a just choice that we can simply turn on and off at will - as if.

The "choice" she is recommending here is for you to supress an innate (and harmless) need just to please the rest of society and make you more attractive to her and other women, irregardless of the personal cost to you. Those of us here with unaccepting wives or SO's or who are in DADT relationships have tried exactly the same thing for the sake of everyone else's well-being and peace of mind, but at what personal cost in terms of our own mental health? If it were that easy, and if we were able to either supress or seamlessly integrate our need to crossdress into our "normal" lives without the expected repercussions, then for starters, there wouldn't even be a need for an anonymous forum such as this where we can find solace, support, and vindication for the way we are wired.

This woman falls into the classic pattern - and provides the fodder for stand-up comedians from time immemorial - of the old saw that men marry women in the hope that they will never change, whereas women marry men in the hope that they can mold them into their own image of the perfect man. Run - don't walk - away from this woman, and let her find some other "bad boy" whom she can reform to her liking.

Being a female, she likely has the inborn biological need to nurture. Why not ask her how she would respond if someone were to demand that she supress those primal urges just because they unilaterally found that to be detrimental to their relationship. I call it "equivalency", and I'm pretty sure I know the answer, so what gives her the right to expect anything different from you?

Some things are deal-breakers, and if some women simply can't get past the thought of their partner crossdressing, then better to let them move on and find happiness elsewhere. There is a reason why this website is called Plenty of Fish...you just need to keep on fishing and forget about "the one that got away".

As far as I'm concerned, anyway.

I tried dating in my 60's. The attractive women were so wrapped up in baggage I just couldn't fite thru it! Those that weren't attractive? Without sex, I'm just not interested. After all, I had my avatar waiting for me at home.:o

In fact, my last effort was visiting a Russian woman about 8 years ago to see if it could work between us. I couldn't. I made my choice rite after I came home!:straightface:

Came out of the closet online here and Sherry was born!:brolleyes:

She's the typical closed minded person and of course it's what she was exposed to in her life.
Society at least in some places women can wear whatever they want, men can't!

So women expect the man to so call dress like a man! the way they think a man should dress.
But then women can dress anyway they want.

Judy, Like an old saying, "when the mind is baffled, when the rules don't fit the game!" The rules are not fair, that is for sure!

I think a lot of you somehow got the wrong idea here. She wasn't dumping on me. She wasn't interested in me as a potential mate in the first place. She's 22. Not a candidate for me anyway. The initial discussion was about something else entirely. But she made her point, and it's not without merit. We do choose whether or not to do this. We don't choose to WANT to. But we choose to act on the desire. Sure, I'll start to feel uncomfortable after a while if I stop crossdressing. But I'm uncomfortable about other things if I don't. A dilemma indeed.

Quote:

---

PaulaQ: "Most of us here will attest that if we had a choice, we sure as hell wouldn't have picked trans!"

---

I'd pick it. I like crossdressing.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Everything in this life has consequences! It may vary with each person in size, or magnitude, but there is some form of consequence. That it a reality that too many want to overlook. I think we all need to examine ourselves occasionally, if for no other reason than to ask what our motives are in what we are doing. That goes for every part of our lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LelaK

I'd pick it. I like crossdressing.

---

Good for you, Lela, I would choose "trans" too. It's taken me a while to get to this point, but I like who I am. Sure, I wish I'd transitioned much earlier, so that I could've had more of a life. No, I'm not happy with what I've suffered. But that suffering is part of what made me who I am now.

I'm happy enough being different from the majority of humanity in this way. Given that genuinely large numbers of people feel that it's OK to debate the relative degree of humanity of transgender people, and for that matter the humanity of others such as sexual minorities, racial minorities, etc., I have to admit that I am not a big fan of most cisgender people at the moment. If being "normal" meant having the same types of attitudes so many of them do, then I'm going to have to say "no thanks - I don't want to be like you." I hear a lot of my fellow trans people call being trans a "birth defect." I completely disagree with this assessment. If anything, I feel pity for cisgender people who choose to hate us so. Their views are so limited. They do not understand what is really going on in their world. And because of that, they blindly commit unspeakable cruelties on a daily basis. No, I'd rather be dead than be like that.

I'm not saying that there aren't good cis people, people who are strong allies. People who get us as much as such a thing is possible for them. (It really isn't very possible for most of them.) There are, and I love and respect and admire many such people.

I will tell you that should I ever have the misfortune of losing my current partners somehow, I'd be quite reluctant to date a cisgender person. I wouldn't reject them out of hand - but I'd certainly want to see that they'd done the best they could to understand someone like me. I don't view cisgender as the gold standard of desirability - perhaps that's the best way to put it. (When I first started transition, I was depressed that probably all my future partners would be trans. Now? I'm quite happy about that really.)

Christians are Muslims and Jehovah's witnesses ,Mormons,evangelist.


Depends on what country and are religion you are from .

We know that places like Thailand,San Francisco, Hollywood have greater potential for you to find a accepting female mate regardless of you being a mtf CD are mtf TS

Easier to find a accepting partner at goth and smbd are alternative lifestyle clubs and meet ups.

Sometimes, I wont argue this as Ive had the exact same thought, and I do believe your right, Ive been into legal battle twice over this very thing, I hired a Guardian Ad Lightem over the things I got accused of, this is an attorney for child representation, my Attornery was worried this would harm me, I assured him it would hurt the Ex more than me, I was right, at any rate my meeting with the gal, she said Mike your not hurting anyone, her words, not mine, as I sat there listening to her I thought to myself, how am I not hurt? look at the situation Im in. I have the financial cost, a hurt relationship with my kids and yes there is truth to this. The fact is when I was with the ex, I had a lot of bad behaviors, denial, I was hidng things, I had lied, so yes I had done hurtful things & in return I have been hurt. Maybe if I had been accepting of myself and been truthful maybe what happened would not have, I dont think so but I will never know. If I get a second chance with a woman, hopefully this time I can do it right, the thing is I cant not be me either as this is hurtful too.

[QOUTE]I want to play golf on Saturday morning.[/QOUTE]

So so you want the golf, or do you want the woman?

Not quite apples to apples, but a think close enough for most of us.

"Well, Honey, I really love you so I hope you can accept that I like to hunt and kill stuff, fish and play golf for hours on end, drink with my buddies, dump money into the racecar in the garage, cuss, fart, stink, dress like a fourteen year old, leer at other women, watch sports on tv while you cook dinner, engage in dangerous behaviour. You know, MAN stuff!"

"I so wish you were a crossdresser."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CarlaWestin

"Well, Honey, I really love you so I hope you can accept that I like to hunt and kill stuff, fish and play golf for hours on end, drink with my buddies, dump money into the racecar in the garage, cuss, fart, stink, dress like a fourteen year old, leer at other women, watch sports on tv while you cook dinner, engage in dangerous behaviour. You know, MAN stuff!"

"I so wish you were a crossdresser."

---

Yeah, if only real life was like that. Unfortunately, women are generally attracted to men who do man stuff, and turned off by those who do lady stuff.

Whether CD hurts a crossdresser or not depends on ther circumstances. Conceivably it could and it can cause lots of problems with married crossdressers who those with who have serious relationships. It seems that perhaps the majority of us get along quite well as crossdressers so it can work out. There are so many variables involved.
Liz57 made a very valid comment, "My question to you is, "would you consider it harmless to yourself if you stopped crossdressering?"
I shudder to think of the harm stopping to crossdress would do to me. I hae a lot of interests and hobbies, but none come close to the wonderful effect crossdressing has on me.

Hi Lexi :hugs: , It's good to know where the woman stands before you get involved with her, I'LL TAKE THE DRESS ! ...:daydreaming:...

Gillian, I get where you are coming from, about examining ourselves. I am going through my annual big self examination this week, passover week. I just wish our GG friends who examine us harshly when they find out we dress, would also examine themselves also, and see that they can be very harsh and unfair. It is good for ALL peo[ple to do soul searching. And educate themselves before judging.

If two people want to be in a relationship, then the quality of their relationship simply depends on how deeply and honestly they relate to each other. The will to understand the other and understand ourselves and make ourselves understood. I love my wife, and share as much as she can understand and accept, and put limits on myself, not because i fear, or am oppressed by her judgements, but because i some things i will sacrifice for the richness of 'us'. (sacrifice= exchanging something valuable for something of greater worth).

But if we are to distort ourselves and do ourselves harm to jump through other peoples' 'hoops', then we sew fatally weak threads into the fabric of our relationships.

Sometimes people like Lexi's friend help us to articulate what is vital, what is negotiable within ourselves. 'Know yourself', seek to know your ever-new lover, open your heart knowing that there will be pain, but also maybe deep connection and mutual growth.

Me, i chose the woman, her vulnerable open heart, and chose to nourish and honour her. I also choose to nourish and honour my own heart, (trying to avoid the pitfalls of obsession, materialism, and dissatisfaction). I need to be able to offer her authenticity, the real me as best as i can find. So i get the dress as well. Like many aspects of family life my wardrobe has limits, just like my choice of car, holidays, free time and disposable income. Just as my SO chooses to put 'us' above herself in many many ways.

When it becomes a competition between her needs and mine, then loss is at the heart of 'us' and that isn't sustainable. So understanding ourselves and each other as we grow and age and respond to life is how we pursue our humanity.

Nice question Lexi, forgive my midnight ramble. Good luck everyone.

I dump alot of money into this that could got into different investments
I spend time with this that could go into research , learning and more.

My feeling, after a relationship that failed because of my crossdressing, was that in order to improve my odds of having a satisfying relationship with someone new, I'd be better off if I quit dressing up. My second wife never was faced with the question of whether she could handle living with a crossdresser, and I never had to deal with the secret that I had failed to keep in my first marriage. Some here might say that I harmed myself by giving up the pleasure that I got from dressing up, and from the aspect of self-expression that had been so much a part of my life in the past. I looked at it as a positive choice, not as either causing or avoiding any kind of harm. I know it wouldn't work for everyone here, but for me, it worked. There are some kinds of choices that we are capable of making, and some choices that are beyond us, and some choices that involve a sacrifice. For me, the sacrifice was achievable and worth it. If you can't live without the dressing, then your choices are restricted, and you need to act accordingly. But as long as you're honest about it, then neither you nor the prospective partners who cannot live with a crossdreser are "harmed." That's just the reality of who you are, and if you are to find a life-partner, it has to be someone who is compatible with who you are.

Now, I see myself as much more than a crossdresser. I see myself as being transgender. So, now I live my life as a woman as much as possible. Over the last year and a half I am giving more and more thought to the idea of transitioning. The most harmful thing I can do now is to run away from who I am. For a lot of my life that is what I was doing.

Sometimes I think you can sacrifice to much for someone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

We do choose whether or not to do this. We don't choose to WANT to. But we choose to act on the desire. Sure, I'll start to feel uncomfortable after a while if I stop crossdressing. But I'm uncomfortable about other things if I don't. A dilemma indeed.

---

If not doing it drives you crazy* then you really don't have much of a choice. If it's an important part of your life that harms no one and suppressing it would make you miserable, then I suppose you do have a choice, but I wouldn't take it. How much flexibility you have all depends on you and the depth of your personal relationship with CDing.

* By which I mean addictive behaviours, antisocial tendencies, depression, suicidal ideation, etc.