bathrooms: just what goes on in there anyway?

What ever happened to the mixed-gender bathrooms of the Ali McBeal show?

In the 1980s we shared a bathroom in the 18th floor of the playboy building- knock and ask if it was currently occupied by buys or girls.

Several times some of the younger girls (artists) would come in when it was 'boys'.

Hey- as long as there are working stalls, and a modicum of privacy, so what?

We both do #1 and #2 essentially the same, (yeah yeah, peeing is physically different but not as much so when sitting).

Perhaps bathrooms stalls should simply be made more private.

When you come down to it- it is a matter of not exposing your privates to others. I don't want to expose mine to other people, regardless of gender. And people have no problem sharing a single bathroom.

I think the idea of public bathrooms is the problem. what kind of psycho thinks it is a good idea to have a bunch of guys whip their penises out in front of each other? It is a pretty freaking weird idea when you think about it.

I'm bringing this up yet again- because I do not think the problem is totally about gender- but about personal modesty.

What if your social mores say don't expose yourself to anyone? Single bathrooms. Done and dusted.

I think it is very important to note that there THERE IS VERY LITTLE CONCERN ABOUT GENDERS SHARING A SINGLE BATHROOM AT DIFFERENT TIMES.

Since this is evident, the problem is when we as society force people to go to the bathroom as a group. That's the real problem.

I can recall peeing in a trough at the ball park, now almost all urinals have a splash shield between them. As far as exposing yourself to others, I had to shower with all the other boys after P.E. in school on a daily basis, there were no single stalls, at least not back then, and if you did not "measure up" to teenage male standards for "size" you were open for ridicule from both genders.

I've heard in some European countries, there are mixed bathrooms, that have stalls across from each other with no doors. Not advocating that, but it makes me realize how uptight we Americans can be!

with all of the problems in the world i can't believe the uproar about bathrooms.
they say more boys get molested in the men's room, so for a safety issue it
might be safer if we all used the same bathroom as there would be more activity.
i agree we Americans are modest and far behind the Europeans.
there's only 2 reasons why i use the bathroom:
#1, #1
#2, #2
:D

Meghan, agreed on European bathrooms. I used to travel to Amsterdam quite often, among others. At the convention center there it was quite common to walk into the large men's room and find female custodians tidying up, not in any hurry to finish. Nobody bats an eye. Here in the States, that restroom would be barricaded until they finished. There are many more example of how uptight we Americans are in comparison.

Let's face it..... TSs are just another "bogeyman" that some are telling the general public that we all have to fear.

It is no different than voter fraud in that it's a non issue that some are using purely for political gain.

One of the technology companies (maybe Google?) tried going to an all-gender bathroom -- it was all stalls, no urinals. After a few months half the stalls got labeled "women only" because men prefer to stand to pee and -- let's be honest -- they're not sharp-shooters, if you know what I mean. ;) The women complained that they needed a clean place to sit and pee. So if we want to have universal bathrooms we either need to teach men to sit or we need full-time cleaning crews.

I was in the mens, somewhere near Paris.
Girls toilets had a big queue
Pretty young woman walks past the urinals
and takes up a cubical

No big deal, but didn't like her big dog being near the urinals

The last time I was in Japan, The bathrooms were all Co-ed.

From what I am hearing from my red-neck friends, they are afraid of their daughters having to issues with perverts. I wonder if they are as concerned with their sons and perverts! Most North Americans are prudes and those who attempt to prove otherwise go to the opposite extreme, which is as bad! There is a middle ground, dare I say the "c" word, compromise, which means that no one gets what they want, but everyone has to find a middle ground. In the middle ground no one is happy, but happiness is only a fleeting moment!

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Originally Posted by Jennie-cd

. After a few months half the stalls got labeled "women only" because men prefer to stand to pee and -- let's be honest -- they're not sharp-shooters, if you know what I mean. ;)

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Sorry, calling BS on that. I see more "misses" in the women's room on the seats because some women "Hover" Honestly, both genders have issues. So the whole seat argument is a fallacy. It comes down to, again, personal politeness. (One women's room on the interstate about mad me barf with all the urine on the seat and floor)

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Originally Posted by Krististeph

...the problem is when we as society force people to go to the bathroom as a group. That's the real problem.

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Aye, and there's the rub...for most GG's, going to a public restroom is a communal event, especially when they are in groups. It is a time/place not only to relieve themselves but also to fix their hair, make up, and clothes, catch up on the latest gossip, talk about the other people left behind at the restaurant table, check their messages and Facebook status, phone a friend for advice if their date happens to be going badly, as well as for any other social matter related event. Men go to the restroom for one purpose and one purpose only, and unlike GG's, the only time a man will ask another man if he wants to accompany him to the restroom is if they happen to be in a gay bar ;) ).

Heck, I've even seen GG's take group selfies to text message to their friends from a public restroom. Who DOES that??? Teenage girls, that's who...

So yes, I think that for many GG's a restroom is more than a place to simply relieve themselves. It is a social meeting place and even a sanctuary in some instances, and that is perhaps why they get so freaked out at the prospect of genetic males - even transgender ones - gaining access to what they consider their rightful "private" space.

Funny how that concept didn't seem to matter years ago when women sports reporters demanded - and ultimately received - permission to enter male players' locker and shower rooms to conduct post-game interviews...

Although I usually come down on the progressive side politically, I'm not sure what to make of this latest bathroom cause celebre. Maybe I just don't understand the issue well.
When it comes to bathroom use, I'm especially scratching my head over the definition of transgender. Isn't that mostly a self-defined term? Who decides if a person is transgender? Example, if the men's urinal is broken, can I say I feel like a girl today and go into the women's restroom, no matter how I'm dressed, or do I have to be dressed appropriately? If it is dependent on dress, a lot of women wear jeans and tee shirts so does that count? Obviously I'm being somewhat facetious but my point is that I'm not sure this has been thought through very well. I know that if I was a woman who valued being able to use a public bathroom without having men also using it, I might be pissed off. If a person has transitioned or is in process, I have no problem with switching bathrooms but most of the people we are talking about are still sporting their original parts. I know my wife has told me that when we have been to crossdressing events she doesn't like to use the bathroom because it is full of guys. Maybe it is just because I'm old fashioned in some ways, but I'm just not comfortable with how this change is being implemented.

Ok, here is a common sense answer to the whole bathroom thing... Dont we all share a bathroom with our SO. and our kids ???And we rearly even shut the door ... in our house..??? can`t everyone just get along and get their buisness done in peace?As parents we took our young children in the bathroom we were comfortable in. RIGHT No matter their sex...A dude in a dress in the mens room is gonna catch hell as is a chic in the mens room. pee as you present!!!!!! All will be fine... JMHO!

The people I know, who tend to be conservative are really more concerned with locker rooms which have not been adapted for co-ed use. For them it is a modesty issue. They do not feel their young kids, especially girls, should be viewing the developed genitals of the opposite sex. In my opinion the underlying issue is many of these protestors absolutely do not like gays, lesbians and any transgender men and women. I base my opinion on unsolicited testimony of friends and acquaintances who have no idea what the subject is about and think they do not associate with any. Surprise!

You know I have been in plenty of public pool locker rooms where a dad takes his daughters into the men's room and my wife has seen her share of boys with their moms in the women's room. These kids are all wide eyed and staring but no pitchforks come out and the police are not called. These new bathroom policies are just someone's attempt to legislate a non problem about people who are different from themselves. Diversity in the gene pool is good but not in public pool.

I often wondered what went on in there myself. Especially since I was a part time custodian at a grocery store after I retired and part of my job was to clean both the mens and ladies rooms. Guess what? They were equally bad when it came to cleanness. I could fill a book with what I found in those little flap containers in the ladies room stalls. Nothing surprises me any more. :battingeyelashes::)

I agree with "What is the big deal?" Well, I don't think the bathroom is the big deal. It's more of let's write a law that will cover every possible instance for the transgendered and bathrooms just happen to be in that category. I's more than any one thing. Women's bathrooms? Probably not much to see unless you're obviously trying to get a peek and then it should fall into the category of a peeping tom. Locker rooms? Probably more of an issue. Not sure that young girls need to see a GM walking around displaying his male (and possibly fully operational) genitals.
And now our POTUS is threatening fiscal sanctions against schools who do not allow such a thing. Really? Don't all students have some rights to privacy, not just the transgendered? I'm beginning to think the biggest problem in this country is the lack of common sense and decency. I'm sure if I had a son or daughter who was transgendered I would still love them and want what was best for them but I don't see myself forcing those beliefs onto all the other students. Perhaps with some guidance and useful information other students would see that just because there is a difference that doesn't mean there is something wrong with such a person. Look at how far we have come with Down's Syndrome people. Used to be put away in a home just to survive and they complete school, receive training, hold jobs and get married in many instances.
Tolerance is a 2-way street, we have to tolerant of others who have different ideas as do they to us.

I am a woman, and in particular, a trans woman. I've got an F on every piece of legal identification I can. My birth certificate is the last one, and requires surgery because of the state I was born in.

Disclaimer: I am speaking only for myself here.

Personally, I just want my legal/medical identity to be respected consistently. That includes locker rooms and other gender/sex-segregated spaces.

When it comes to folks like CDs, at least to me, it's more complicated. I don't particularly want men in women's spaces, regardless of what they're wearing. That said, I have no problem with CDs being in there, because statistically it's just not an issue, and they have safety concerns. My personal belief is that CDs should feel okay with going into the womens room for safety reasons, but I don't believe we need to legislate the right for them to be in there. It should not be a punishable crime, but if asked to leave over a dispute, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave.

The tricky thing here is what constitutes a "sincerely held gender identity", which is language that gets used a lot. For trans men and women who transition, IMO there's very little room to question, especially with legal identity changes. In the other cases, I personally do wish we had some kind of standard, because it would shut a lot of nasty people up. That said, I'm not certain it's possible to define a standard that's actually enforceable, other than "what's on your legal ID", so here we are.

I don't love the fact that my choices appear to be "bathroom free-for-all" and "legislated bigotry that denies men and women access to the correct spaces". If anybody offered me the chance to vote for "guaranteed access is based on federal identification, and using the 'wrong' bathroom is a non-punishable/non-convictable offense in case of dispute", I would do so in a heartbeat. You would then find me advocating FIERCELY for removing (or substantially easing) the monetary roadblocks that can keep some people unable to make those legal changes.

Yea its a pretty stupid discussion but it does take the mind off the important issues of the day. I wonder where trans people went 1 yr ago I guess no one noticed. They were to busy peeing

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Originally Posted by Michala

And now our POTUS is threatening fiscal sanctions against schools who do not allow such a thing.

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I don't believe the law requires people to flaunt their genitalia. There's no reason why locker rooms can't be made to give privacy to all. Even without transgender people communal changing rooms and showers are a problem for people -- I know it freaked me out in high school and even now at some gyms.

If the problem is modesty, fix that. If the problem is perverts, fix that. But banning transgender folk doesn't fix anything.

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And now our POTUS is threatening fiscal sanctions against schools who do not allow such a thing

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There is some misunderstanding and misstating of the facts about what Obama told them or wants them to do
All he did is to remind the offenders of the 1971 law baring state sponsored discrimination if a state is to receive certain federal fundings.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

...Disclaimer: I am speaking only for myself here.

...When it comes to folks like CDs, at least to me, it's more complicated. I don't believe we need to legislate the right for them to be in there. ...

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Zooey, I agree with you here. It IS more complicated for CDs. I do not identify as female but even my wife agrees that using the men's room would look really weird. I do not think I would be beaten in a men's room but who knows. It would feel weird to be in there, for certain. I would never enter a woman's locker room as there is not the same level of privacy for the women inside as in a restroom. And, I agree, we do not need legislation. Whatever "rules" existed last year or 10 years ago seemed to work as there have been ZERO documented instances with trans or CDs causing problems. Clearly it was not a problem and is now being used to obfuscate.

Just how anal have Americans become over going? Remember "trough" urinals at gyms, ball parks, etc.? They took the one out of the old ball park about 30 years ago because the guys got tired of crowding up to each other between innings.

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

From what I am hearing from my red-neck friends, they are afraid of their daughters having to issues with perverts. I wonder if they are as concerned with their sons and perverts! Most North Americans are prudes and those who attempt to prove otherwise go to the opposite extreme, which is as bad! There is a middle ground, dare I say the "c" word, compromise, which means that no one gets what they want,

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Okay- this is good information- because no one want their daughters to have to deal with 'perverts'.

But what constitutes a "pervert"? The more open we are - the less chance anyone can get away with anything.

i can't think clearly at the moment, so i won't postulate anything- but it seems that reactionary people equate transgender with pervert, or on other words: "people who are not what think I grew up with" are "child molesters".

I understand the fear- heck we'd kill to protect our kids. All of us. But protect from what?

I think it really trickles back to beliefs..

keep working this train of thought, is what i am saying.



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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Sorry, calling BS on that. I see more "misses" in the women's room on the seats because some women "Hover" Honestly, both genders have issues. So the whole seat argument is a fallacy. It comes down to, again, personal politeness. (One women's room on the interstate about mad me barf with all the urine on the seat and floor)

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I see piddle on the seat in the bathroom (college) regularly. What the heck is going on there? Grab some tissue, wipe it up. wash you hands.

btw- urine- from an uninfected bladder, is sterile. Gross, YES; but sterile. I hate using the school bathroom but at times i must. I'm suprised we do not have disinfectant wipes in stalls yet. Too much risk from skin irritation from residual chemicals, probably.

Personally- i'd rather have a rash than a uti.

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Originally Posted by Heidi Stevens

Just how anal have Americans become over going? Remember "trough" urinals at gyms, ball parks, etc.? They took the one out of the old ball park about 30 years ago because the guys got tired of crowding up to each other between innings.

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But this is where it all starts:

If everyone (male) is allowed to pee at will in a certain space- fine. What about those who are not male? It's not about shy-ness, it is about fear of exposure to the unknown or the unusual. We ALL have bad knee jerk reactions to it. But we have to realize that there are people out there who are not going to fit into simple male or female.

And majority rule does NOT work in these cases.

Think about a classroom. I teach electronics. I get very upset over the blase attitudes of some students. They play lawyer with me- (they do NOT win) but even at that- this is not a democratic decision: Do the freaking work.

what this means: Yes we should be relaxed about all this- but someone needs to set a reasonable standard, and enforce it.

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Originally Posted by Christie ann

You know I have been in plenty of public pool locker rooms where a dad takes his daughters into the men's room and my wife has seen her share of boys with their moms in the women's room. These kids are all wide eyed and staring but no pitchforks come out and the police are not called. Diversity in the gene pool is good but not in public pool.

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Good lord! A little girl might have seen a penis? Other than her dad's?

I think this is the crux of the issue here. really. Christie has hit the issue:

As a little boy- if you go into the women's bathroom. if the barriers are bad, you might see the private parts of someone other than your mother. I can see moms not all that happy about it and i can see moms kind of upset about it.

As a little girl- if you go into the guy's bathroom- the upset is so much greater. But why should it be?

granted- females are not equal to males, they are much more susceptible to rape and abuse. and we protect them more as such. And we should continue to do to for the foreseeable future.

The real problem is a minority of men who take advantage of situations like this.

They are first and foremost: BULLIES.

Eliminate the bully mentality and you eliminate the gender issues.

I think this works. Rally up sister TGs: Is this a reasonable hypothesis?

I really think this bathroom issue is a combination of several social issues: this would explain the complexity- and the inability to find a single simple answer:

Those guys who have to take their girls into the men's bathrooms- this is a hard thing. How do they do this? This is serious: because this is how we deal with issues of gender:

Privacy- in a stall, with dad- and no one dares mess around with it.

Privacy.

Forcing people to do bathroom functions en masse is the problem.

We all tend to choose privacy for bathroom functions - so why the freaking freak freak do we not just have private stalls in schools?

Money- it saves a few mother-freaking dollars to make a multi-stall bathroom rather than multiple stalls.

A few bucks, really?

The people who should be attacked are the ones who started this whole "lets go to the bathroom as grouped by genders" crud. It does not work. for little boys with moms, or little girls with dads.

This is the united states. 2016 quit asking me to share my bathroom activities for freaks sake!

I believe pretty strongly about the bathroom issue. I don't think anyone should be branded a criminal just because they have to pee. Still, I wonder if we aren't moving too fast on the issue. I'm not sure the in-your-face ram-it-down-your-throat approach is productive in the long run. Let's face it. We're a minority, and we need the support of a majority of the majority if we are to prevail. I think a better plan would be to proceed in this order.

1. Push to have all single-server bathrooms labeled "male or female."
2. Increase Trans visibility and public awareness of Trans issues.
3. Push for co-ed multi-user facilities.
Numbers 1 and 3 also have the benefit of making more facilities available to women, so it's not just a Trans issue.
4. Begin steady, but constant pressure to change the public's understanding of the bathroom choice issue.
5. Push for bathroom choice based on presentation. If you want to use the lady's room, you need to make some effort to appear to be a lady, but once you do that, such choice is legal.
6. Work on the locker room issue as a separate issue, but with some sensible compromises, like private changing stalls, with individual showers.

But I suppose that the in-your-face approach is the best I can hope for.

I watched the big bathroom fight in Houston over the so-called HERO ordinance. Each day when I read the Houston news or watch it in TV I see lots of horrible deaths, attacks, drunk driving accidents, stupid stunt accidents, poor folk who die because they cannot afford simple health care and so on, and so on. But what do the politicians in dear old Texas get all riled up about -going for a pee.

For heavens sake!

Here we go again with the whole "blinking eyes" I don't understand what the big deal is ignorance about such a situation.... Krististeph, I am not singling you out here, or putting you down. But if WE are looking at this issue from the perspective that you are stating in your OP, which is valid reality, than we are missing the entire point about why these bathroom issue are happening.

It has NOTHING to do with privacy, or anything to do with fear of sexual predators. Oh, those who are coming up with these excuses to write or pass these laws are saying this, but that is not really the intention. Now, there may be a few, and I am saying this not in actual numbers but in relation to hundreds of millions of people who will believe these things. Those who are writing and passing laws are doing so to stoke the fears of the few, and because they are losing ground in their holier than thou battles of gender and sexuality, are just lashing out however they can. Lose the battle in courts over gay marriage and they try to strike back by not issuing marriage licenses, or serving gay couples or whatever. TG anti discrimination laws come up and suddenly it is the anti anti discrimination bathroom laws. Not ever really for any reasons of protection. It is to rile those who already hate us. It is to harass us, embarrass us, and if they succeed in getting us have to legally use the men's room to be embarrassed enough by using the men's room and then we get into a physical altercation, we had it coming for dressing that way...

We know, they know, women have always known that TG women, CDers mtf have always used the women's room. And until now, nobody ever gave a s--t. Most don't now. Just enough do, and rile those people up and make it an issue. All the while most of the rest of the world is laughing at us for it.

It seems to me that everyone here has a pretty good idea that this issue is "looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist." Yes, back in 1971 Title 9 was written to create equality between boys and girls. However from my memory it wasn't written with bathrooms and locker rooms in mind. Back then it created a scramble in schools from high schools through college to insure that girls had the same opportunities (and primarily athletic) as boys. How many of you can remember when there were probably 1/2 the number of sports for girls as there were for boys. I attended a small school and my choices were FB in the fall, BB in the winter, Track in the spring. For Girls their choices were Track in the spring, and Cheerleading in the fall and winter. That certainly wasn't fair, but don't every remember that there was any mention of who could use which bathroom or locker room.

And again, do any of you remember an incident where a cd or transgendered person every created a problem in a bathroom, especially a woman's bathroom where in nearly all cases women have separate stalls to use. Seriously have you ever heard of a woman entering a men's bathroom and squatting over a urinal. It's probably happened but I'm guessing that no man ever ran out of a bathroom in such a case and found someone to report such a criminal activity. More likely he couldn't wait to tell his buddies what happened or was laughing so hard he couldn't think.

Again, I think that most of us can agree that this has been blown way out of proportion and there are way more serious issues than this. Just wish politicians recognized we have other issues as well instead of grandstanding and making sure their name stays in the headlines.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Sorry, calling BS on that. I see more "misses" in the women's room on the seats because some women "Hover" Honestly, both genders have issues. So the whole seat argument is a fallacy. It comes down to, again, personal politeness. (One women's room on the interstate about mad me barf with all the urine on the seat and floor)

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The first time I used the Ladies as a CD'er was about 2000 +/- and when I sat down I looked up and saw, scotch taped to the back of the stall door, a sign which read, "If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat."

For a while, 10-15 seconds I'd guess, I actually was confused and thought that I'd wandered into the men's room by mistake. Later usage of the ladies rooms around the USA confirmed your observations that the female plumbing is not as accurate as most males think. Or, "How in hell can they miss that big a target from four inches away?"

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Originally Posted by Barbara Jo

There is some misunderstanding and misstating of the facts about what Obama told them or wants them to do
All he did is to remind the offenders of the 1971 law baring state sponsored discrimination if a state is to receive certain federal fundings.

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Casting aside my perception there is a lot of bigotry happening unfortunately the NC governor and others have pointed out a valid point. There is no federal statue, i.e., law, specifically addressing gays, lesbians and transgender men and women. President Obama addressed the issue in part with an executive order that is applicable to the federal workforce and its contractors. Ted Cruz stated, if he was to be elected, in the first day of his administration he would rescind all of Obama's executive orders. There are many states which have not passed legislation protecting gays, lesbians and transgender men and women. The result is a lack of conformity in the law. Here comes the lawsuits all around the country.

I will state, if anyone wishes to immigrate to Washington State, there are laws protecting gays, lesbians, transgender men and women, and, cross dressers. Hate crime laws apply. And, as an interesting sidebar, if a person assaults, etc because he or she perceives their victim was one of the protected class, then it is a hate crime whether or not the victim is of that class. It's also interesting veterans care covered under hate crime laws.

It's becoming increasingly apparent a US Supreme Court case is in the making in NC.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

It has NOTHING to do with privacy, or anything to do with fear of sexual predators. Oh, those who are coming up with these excuses to write or pass these laws are saying this, but that is not really the intention. Now, there may be a few, and I am saying this not in actual numbers but in relation to hundreds of millions of people who will believe these things. Those who are writing and passing laws are doing so to stoke the fears of the few, and because they are losing ground in their holier than thou battles of gender and sexuality, are just lashing out however they can. Lose the battle in courts over gay marriage and they try to strike back by not issuing marriage licenses, or serving gay couples or whatever. TG anti discrimination laws come up and suddenly it is the anti anti discrimination bathroom laws. Not ever really for any reasons of protection. It is to rile those who already hate us. It is to harass us, embarrass us, and if they succeed in getting us have to legally use the men's room to be embarrassed enough by using the men's room and then we get into a physical altercation, we had it coming for dressing that way...

We know, they know, women have always known that TG women, CDers mtf have always used the women's room. And until now, nobody ever gave a s--t. Most don't now. Just enough do, and rile those people up and make it an issue. All the while most of the rest of the world is laughing at us for it.

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It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

If you expect total privacy you had better use the restroom at home.

Public restrooms of any gender label are never "private" places to make everyone feel like they are at home.

Go in take care of your business, wash up and get out.

I get kind of riled up over this, wonder how many felons are in the bathroom ? Ex convicts ? Domestic Abusers ? Armed Robbers ? Drug Dealers ? and the list goes on.

In fact a person convicted of a sex crime has NO restrictions regarding bathrooms. lockers, showers, dressing rooms so go think about that for minute.

Crossdressers and Transgender people are the best behaved people in the bathroom.

I am not there to make everyone feel comfortable.

We have a right to protect our own safety too, and going in the men's room is not a safe bet for any of us enfemme.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

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I agree with this. Unfortunately we live in a world where reason, empathy and good manners rarely exist - this includes CDs, non-CDs, LBGTs, straights, conservatives, liberals, the Christian right, the non-Christian left, most of the general public - even those seeking the top office in the land. Our culture has become ridiculously narcissistic with most groups having little regard for anything or anybody other than "me and my rights". Personally, I'm pretty sick and tired of the whole damned thing. (Be warned - this line of thinking can happen to you too when you get old).

Like Kate, i was a janitor several times, and cleaned a restaurant that had a lounge, I found like Kate, both mens and womens room filthy, and with puke often. Yikk! Stinky awful job at times both places. i agree with heatherdress, and Alaina. The locker room issue seems a separate issue to me. I respect young girls privacy, and boundries too blasted much, to allow anyone with male plumbing to dress and shower with the school girls. I also think trns men and transmen dressed as such, should be allowed to use the washroom of the gender they are dressed as. There will always be a few true perverts, who will fake being TS, to get into the ladies rooms, giving all TS a bad name.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulaprimo

with all of the problems in the world i can't believe the uproar about bathrooms.
they say more boys get molested in the men's room, so for a safety issue it
might be safer if we all used the same bathroom as there would be more activity.
i agree we Americans are modest and far behind the Europeans.
there's only 2 reasons why i use the bathroom:
#1, #1
#2, #2
:D

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So what do you do about #3?

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance.

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For transsexual women and girls, and transsexual men, are bathrooms really a matter of choice like like they are for cross dressers? do they really not have a right to be treated equally according to their gender identity? I think they do have such rights and they need to be accomidated equally. Cross dressers are talking a lot on the issue but they. are not impacted in the same ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

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Heather,

I understand the fear of women and have had many conversations with women on this topic and for the most part it is a non-issue. Most women I have spoken to don't care so long as the trans person is doing her business, washing hands and leaving. The stuff you are talking about is fear mongering which is being used in your very own country to deny trans women and trans men the right to use the bathroom to which they identify. As a trans woman I do not pass, am not pretty and look like a man (my cross to bear) however if I were to enter the men's bathroom what do you think would happen to me? Do you think the guys in there would be oh so accommodating. I live this 24/7 and when I have to pee I need to do so and I am not about to wander around looking for a one seater or bush to do my business. I am a woman and so I will use the women's restroom.

Marcelle

The truth is, there has never be a documented case of a TS/TG person harassing anyone in a rest room in any way .
A TS/TG person just wants to "do their business" and leave.

However, it's actually the TS/TG population who has often been harassed in restrooms and this has be often been documented.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/0...athroom-study/

This stems from the erroneous belief that being gay TS/ TG is a conscious choice that people make..... born out of pure sexual perversion that they have .
So, they believe that any gay TS/TG person in a rest room must be up to some sort of perverse sexual action.
Some ignorant people actually believe this and some politicians are just taking full advantage of their ignorance .

Consider this.... African Americans were once bared from white restrooms using basically the same argument that they would harass whites and "decent people" do not want them around.

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Originally Posted by arbon

For transsexual women and girls, and transsexual men, are bathrooms really a matter of choice like like they are for cross dressers? do they really not have a right to be treated equally according to their gender identity? I think they do have such rights and they need to be accomidated equally. Cross dressers are talking a lot on the issue but they. are not impacted in the same ways.

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Yes, transsexual women and men absolutely should be able to use the bathroom which corresponds to the gender they identify with and live as. Transsexual women are women. Transsexual men are men. But unfortunately, crossdressers, whether dressed or not dressed, are also included in transgender bathroom rights laws, whether dressed or not dressed, because crossdressers are also defined in general transgender definitions.

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Originally Posted by Marcelle

Heather,

I understand the fear of women and have had many conversations with women on this topic and for the most part it is a non-issue. Most women I have spoken to don't care so long as the trans person is doing her business, washing hands and leaving. The stuff you are talking about is fear mongering which is being used in your very own country to deny trans women and trans men the right to use the bathroom to which they identify. As a trans woman I do not pass, am not pretty and look like a man (my cross to bear) however if I were to enter the men's bathroom what do you think would happen to me? Do you think the guys in there would be oh so accommodating. I live this 24/7 and when I have to pee I need to do so and I am not about to wander around looking for a one seater or bush to do my business. I am a woman and so I will use the women's restroom.

Marcelle

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Marcelle - Sorry, but you cannot understand and should not dismiss the fear and anxiety some women have based on a few conversations with your friends. It is not fear mongering as you label it. Too bad you could not speak to my wife, who is very accepting, liberal, progressive, sympathetic and a military veteran. She would maintain that the fear mongering you suggest better describes the opposite justification being used for protective bathroom laws. I certainly do believe that transsexual women and men should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender that they are and live their life as. But protecting crossdressers, who primarily dress for pleasure, even when not dressed, is different and a protection that has always been unnecessary.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbara Jo

The truth is, there has never be a documented case of a TS/TG person harassing anyone in a rest room in any way .
A TS/TG person just wants to "do their business" and leave.

However, it's actually the TS/TG population who has often been harassed in restrooms and this has be often been documented.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/0...athroom-study/

This stems from the erroneous belief that being gay TS/ TG is a conscious choice that people make..... born out of pure sexual perversion that they have .
So, they believe that any gay TS/TG person in a rest room must be up to some sort of perverse sexual action.
Some ignorant people actually believe this and some politicians are just taking full advantage of their ignorance .

Consider this.... African Americans were once bared from white restrooms using basically the same argument that they would harass whites and "decent people" do not want them around.

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Barbara Jo - Don't be naïve. Crossdressers do get arrested in places like bathrooms. Men who wear dresses and wigs break laws and commit crimes. Several crossdressers have been arrested by police for videotaping unsuspecting women in stalls. There are crossdresser arrests made for prostitution and drug sales in places like bathrooms. And not everyone runs in and leaves, as you suggest.

This thread is done. People have the right to their opinions and not being told they are naive or they do not understand.

There is NOW a sticky at the top of the page that discuss Bathroom bills ect.
Respectfully post in it
Thank You