My little soapbox moment.

One thing that has been annoying me about the whole bathroom issue. I go to work at a home improvement chain, of course in boy mode. It's a large store, with a mens, womens, and a family bathroom. No biggie. More than once, I've had to endure blowhards laugh at the family bathroom, wondering out loud if that's the transgender bathroom. I keep quiet. I don't want to out myself, and I definitely don't want to lose my job. It's just one of those things that eats me up. There's so much hatred against our community that is actually frightens me.

Number of people here pointed out clever ways to point out one's bigotry without outing yourself. It is actually not hard to put one on the defensive.

When I worked at Dillard's we had a customer who was a CDer. I don't know at what point on the "trans" spectrum she was, I called her "she" because she wore women's clothing, though she didn't wear makeup or any other appearance altering accessories. Anyway, she would come in and try on formal dresses, she was a regular and sales associates would scramble to help her because it was well known she always purchased a few items. At one point, the store manager told us she was no longer allowed to try on clothes in the women's dressing rooms. Our dressing rooms had no shared hallway, they each had their own door that faced the sales floor. No contact with any other customers would ever accidentally occur. We actually had to carry the items that she wanted to try on to the men's dressing rooms for her to try on there. The sales associates actually fought against this policy on the basis that we would be offending a good customer without a legitimate reason. It was really embarrassing for her and for us. She stopped coming in after a while. This was about seven years ago. When the bathroom bills started, I was reminded of it and how ridiculous it seemed even then. Just an aside, as a gg, I would prefer a mtf trans person use the same bathroom as me because as a woman, I'd be scared of using a men's room. I don't want people to get hurt and that seems more likely to happen in a men's room. That could just be my own prejudicial thinking though. That may have come out wrong, but men's rooms seem dirty and men, in my experience, don't always know how to behave when there's a lady alone and they're in a group.

Hi Stephani Lara :hugs:, You will find out that you just can't fix stupid! ...:daydreaming:...

Just remind then it's for mother with sons and fathers with daughters that need to use the bathroom so they aren't taking children I to the opposite bathroom

Thank u, Natalie! U just answered my question!:)

Why not set them straight? You will not "out" yourself, you will simply demonstrate that are enlightened. These "blowhards" may be haters or simply ignorant. Educate them.

Well we know people don't like different, it's always been that way. It's for the most part hard wired into our brains so opposition is hardly surprising, especially when something is forced without their consideration. There's alot of talk about tolerance and acceptance but it only seems to have to go one way.

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Originally Posted by nothingclever

..., but men's rooms seem dirty ...

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It's usually disgusting in there.

StefaniLara, you should be frightened. And, there is great potential for it getting worse. If your home improvement chain has an anti-discrimination policy you may want to tell the manager some customers have been offended by the comments, assuming they're made by employees. Comments like that make for a "hostile work environment" and should not be tolerated. Also, one can always attempt to confront the bigotry without 'outing' themselves.

Hello StefaniLara

You could report these individuals by using a computer in a public library. That is about as close to anonymous as anybody can get. There is a "contact us" link on most company web sites.

I somehow doubt management would be impressed if this kind of talk drives customers away. Posing as a customer and using the names on their uniforms, date, time and store location may get more attention than an employee complaint.

given all the issues with this some people just need a high 5 upside their cranial cavity to wake them up ,However I totally agree with jennifer at home when she says we should educate them ,how many times in life have we judged the book soley by it's cover ? Most people who are ignorant truly do appreciate being corrected in a positive manner as they are only acting on what they know at a given point, after that there is only the haters ,why do they hate?? perhaps it is their religious values?,perhaps and more common than we might know omg I might be one of them! what will everyone think? as shakespeare once said "me thinks you protest too much" and by doing so put the light off of themselves , I have recently started polling unknown to me people and for the most part the reply is ,so whats the big deal?
hugs phylis anne

Just say hanging out by it would be a waste of your time, I'm sure they wouldn't be interested in you any way.

I agree that men's room are dirty. seems they can't hit a urinal right and pee all over the place. In a skirt, top with a bra and heels. I don't want to go to the men's room. Just don't seem right. Even dressed androgynous it don't seem right. But until this blows over I guess we have no choice.

I can't help but think back when I was a kid, and my family and I were at Disney World. This was in the mid seventies.

This divorced dad with two daughters was there, and he had no girlfriend with. The girls were old enough to not be taken into the men's, but not old enough to go unsupervised. He was stuck asking strange women if they'd take his daughters into the bathroom. What a position to be put in.

Obviously, that is uncalled for. I've seen just too many parents going into the family bathroom with a child of the opposite sex of the parent. If you can get away with it, (I can because I'm big enough, and have done it) a dead stare with a dirty look usually shuts those jerks up.

I think that the fear of outing oneself by standing up for transgender rights is as misguided as the fear of outing oneself by buying feminine clothing while dressed in drab. I understand the feeling--I've felt it myself. But think about it. Lots of non-transgender people have bought women's underthings and other clothing--for their wives or lovers or whatever. Sometimes I would buy tampons for my first wife. Should I have been afraid that people would think I was having my period? And as for standing up for people's rights, if I were to say that blacks should not be treated any differently than whites, will people suspect that I am secretly black?

I admit that I'm not a 100% courageous person when it comes to standing up for crossdressers: I've never said, "I used to do that myself, so I know quite a bit about the subject." But I think there's minimal risk in any of us saying, "Look, I know this is a subject that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but I think we should try to treat EVERYONE, regardless of what kind of clothes they feel a need to wear, and regardless of what gender they feel themselves to be, with respect."

It's times like this that brings us down to earth and we realise the battle is not really over.

I think you are right in staying the silent minority, I know I have done this on occasions.

Just grin and bear it, things will get better.

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Originally Posted by StefaniLara

More than once, I've had to endure blowhards laugh at the family bathroom, wondering out loud if that's the transgender bathroom. ... There's so much hatred against our community that is actually frightens me.

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Keep in mind that just because someone makes a joke or laughs, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a hater.

It's common for people to laugh or make jokes when the only thing they understand about it is what they've loosely seen in the media all these years, which is likely drag queens at gay pride parades in their outlandish getups. I've been privy to conversations too when I've heard people make jokes but the jokes were about "concepts" and not about specific people. Take any one of the people who make jokes, and tell them that their brother or best friend is transgender and you'll get quite a different reaction. When it reaches close to home then it stops being this nebulous thing. When a person hears that a best friend is transgender, even if they still do not understand they now have human qualities to attach to the label - all the things they know their best friend to be - and it stops being so funny. They won't start hating their best friend just because he is TG.

(Generally speaking, of course, unless a person lives in an ultra-conservative part of the country and/or is particularly religious and believes the behavior to be sinful, but even then, believing that a behavior is sinful does not automatically translate to hating the person who engages in the behavior).

You live in Texas, and parts of Texas are rather conservative, so maybe more people make jokes there. But if you go to NYC or SF, you'll run into different attitudes.

Well spoken, Reina.

It is my fervent belief that if everyone could sit down and chat with a dresser one on one for 1/2 hour, the stigma of being trans would disappear overnite! I've seen it happen rite before my eyes at T events in vanilla venues!

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...(Generally speaking, of course, unless a person lives in an ultra-conservative part of the country and/or is particularly religious and believes the behavior to be sinful, but even then, believing that a behavior is sinful does not automatically translate to hating the person who engages in the behavior)...

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Yes, perhaps that is true for the most part when viewed through a Western lens, but there are other cultures out there that do not subscribe to our values and where "honor killings" are routinely committed and often sanctioned - if not downright perpetrated directly by - immediate family members against someone who has run afoul of ultra-conservative cultural values or religious dogma.

I cannot fathom how a mother or a father could douse their own daughter with kerosene and burn her alive simply because she would not submit to an arranged marriage, but this happens routinely in some parts of the world.

I have given up trying to figure out how some people can be so full of hate and so totally without remorse in blindly pursuing agendas that wreak havoc on other peoples' lives - all for the sake of their "beliefs" or similarly entrenched irrational dogma.

Without outing yourself, you could simply make the logical argument that having a third bathroom is there to 1) assist those who need help going to the rest room who are the opposite gender, and 2) having a restroom for trans people will help them avoid lawsuits and controversy. In terms of trans people, a single lawsuit or potential loss of business (like Target has been going through) is worth the cost of building and maintaining a third single user restroom.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Keep in mind that just because someone makes a joke or laughs, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a hater.

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With all due respect, I'm sorry, but it generally does mean they are a hater. Consider the following jokes:
What do we think of someone who tells one of those *hilarious* jokes about black people based on stereotypes?
How about the person telling that real knee slapper of a jewish joke?
Or perhaps a little joke at the expense of the Pope and / or nuns? Funny!
There's some hilarious puns involving Hispanics and rivers - are the tellers haters or no?
What harm could be caused by a little ribaldry at the expense of the handicapped?

Yeah, all the people who tell those jokes are haters, and generally horrible human beings. Or at least rather bigoted and bullying. "Hater" seems like precisely the right word.

So what all those other kinds of jokes that we don't tell anymore, have in common with a crack about the "transgender bathroom" is that they are "punching down." If you are going to make fun of someone, make fun of someone who is as powerful as you, or better still MORE powerful than you. Wanna joke about a political candidate? Have at it. Wanna tell an amusing anecdote about Warren Buffet? Be my guest - even if it's mean. Jokes like that "punch up" - that is, they take on someone who has higher status or power than you do. This is fine. Punching down is mocking or joking about someone who is stigmatized and has lower status or less power than you. It's a dick move, and the people who do it are well described by the term "hater."

So if you want to tell a joke poking fun at transgender people, you better be transgender yourself.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But if you go to NYC or SF, you'll run into different attitudes.

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Actually you can find a lot of the same attitudes in both those cities - they just don't vocalize it as much. And if you leave those cities, there are outlying areas that are nearly as bad as say Texas. I'm not trying to build Texas up - Texas, and in particular our Governor and Lt. Gov, are horrible for trans people. There are bubbles that are relatively tolerant. But even within them, there is plenty of hate, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by StefaniLara

...I go to work at a home improvement chain... More than once, I've had to endure blowhards laugh at the family bathroom, wondering out loud if that's the transgender bathroom. I keep quiet. I don't want to out myself, and I definitely don't want to lose my job...

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You can stand up against hatred without outing yourself. Simply saying something like "is that what you worry about?" will probably cool their jets.

You didn't state which chain you work for and they are all over the board when it comes to LGBT worker rights. Home Depot has a perfect HRC score of 100 while Lowe's has an abysmal score of 20.

We do seem to live in an age where it is acceptable to make nasty remarks about people or groups. Today I read an article about how writers for various film and shows have closed their social media accounts because they had received threats to themselves and even their children for some scene from a film or in a book that somehow offended or disappointed a viewer or reader.
I don't understand why and I despair at the hatred and abuse that is a daily part of our public discourse.

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In defense of Reine's remark that not everyone who makes a bad joke is a hater, I have often come across those who will make some throwaway remark against some group, who on being challenged will quickly retreat and admit that what they said was thoughtless and unbecoming of them.

Hi StephanieLara: I try to think about them as what you called them, "Blowhards" too ignorant to understand and too intectually atrophied to understand even if they knew. You are bright and empathetic young person, it's good that you see it. I have no advice, just keep your head high and look forward to the days when you can dress to what you feel you are. Thanks for sharing this. Brenda

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Originally Posted by CONSUELO

I have often come across those who will make some throwaway remark against some group, who on being challenged will quickly retreat and admit that what they said was thoughtless and unbecoming of them.

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Point taken - and it's great to meet people like that. I find that often, even when I gently point out "hmmm, you know, that joke, was really problematical in some ways, although I'm sure you didn't mean it to be", that people tend to dig in their heels and become defensive about it. But you are absolutely right that sometimes they don't realize they are using bigoted language, because such things are awfully ingrained in us socially. One of my friends called out a local political party chairman on a transphobic joke he made in a public speech. She did it in a letter, privately, and very politely I might add. He wrote her back after a time, and admitted he had to do some soul searching, and apologized for the remark.

It really is best to point out to people, as politely as possible, as I think hostility accomplishes little, that jokes like that aren't OK.

The mens room seem dirty comment I have a problem with.
I worked as a custodian in a office at 16 years old and the ladies bathroom was far worse than the mens room.
The ladies threw their trash everywhere even feminine hygiene products on occasion didn't make it to the trash can.

Tracii G I agree completely about the womens restroom being the dirtiest. Worked at a truck stop as a high school kid. Everyone that had to clean restrooms hated doing the womens.

This issue goes away when one has or had young daughters..the perverts are using this issue not in the way this issue was supposed to work...i wish this issue had never been...stupid we were..this is nearly as stupid as when the t movement erupted when the lgb crowd allowed us to be attached to there issues..another dumb move on our part..for the record i never had an issue when dressed using the ladies room long before some of our snowflakes felt the need to push an issue that never really was an issue..all my take

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Originally Posted by ReineD

. Take any one of the people who make jokes, and tell them that their brother or best friend is transgender and you'll get quite a different reaction. When it reaches close to home then it stops being this nebulous thing. When a person hears that a best friend is transgender, even if they still do not understand they now have human qualities to attach to the label - all the things they know their best friend to be - and it stops being so funny. They won't start hating their best friend just because he is TG.

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I think that Leelah Alcorn would have to differ on that idea......if she were still alive.

Inhabiting this 'safe area' for the gender 'enhanced' for too long leaves lots stuck in the pink fog, where things are good and everyone becomes enlightened when offered a reasonable explanation. Unfortunately, that's not the real world. For just like Gandhi's passive resistance wouldn't have worked in the face of the nazis, coming out to family and/or friends who think TG are freaks and perverts, doesn't guarantee that they'll suddenly think better of us; often, they reinforce their own beliefs, and think we're the foolish ones. That was my experience. While not universal, it's certainly very common. Mom even felt it was partially because she didn't take me to church enough when I was a kid, and thought that if I started going regularly now, that maybe I could 'straighten myself out'.

I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. Just because someone calls the family restroom the "transgender bathroom" doesn't make him (or her) a "hater". People often joke about what they don't understand and people often make jokes to try to fit in with the crowd.

My suggestion to you is to just walk away from conversations that offend you. Your other option is to make a big deal out of this, report the people to management, etc. You'll probably make so many enemies that you'll have to quit your job.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

I think that Leelah Alcorn would have to differ on that idea......if she were still alive.

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Leelah did come out as gay to her friends and they did accept this.

Leelah killed herself because she was 16 and her parents, who were steeped in their religion, didn't believe her. They took her out of public school, they took away her laptop and phone and forbade her to go on any social media, they completely isolated her from her friends. She was only allowed to go to Church where she correctly deduced the people there were against who she was. Leelah felt trapped with no way out because she didn't have the maturity to wait it out until she was an adult. She felt that waiting just two extra years would ruin her chances to transition and be stealth. She grew desperate because she convinced herself that if she didn't transition at 16, she would forever look like a man in a dress and would not be able to find love.

You should read her letter.

I see you live in Texas. Here in the north, "family bathrooms" have been common long before the "trans bathroom" issues came along. We have them in malls, department stores, health clubs; they are a huge convenience for moms with several small children, boys & girls, kids in strollers, kids that need diapers changed, etc. I used them when my two children were small - and that was a long time ago! Obviously, they are open to anyone who wants to use them.

I realize the attitudes differ all over the country and there will always be those that are intolerant of anyone whose views differ from their own. I realize that you may be more sensitive to their comments. Like Forest Gump said, "you can't fix stupid".