LGB....but no T...

All,

Had a recent email exchange with our male gay incoming pastor at church. He leads a "LGBT" social group, and that is a very good thing. Another pastor suggested I come to a June social, and also participate in the Houston Pride parade, etc. Upon some questions and answers: sure you are welcome, but there are no other M to F straight people.

I am not really surprised, and I declined all the invites. I am not a gender warrior type, nor do I wish to confuse, puzzle or explain myself in a social group.

Interesting discussion though, and I do respect our ministers for trying to open doors. There are some F to M trans-men, and that is wonderful too. Seems to me that F to M is often much more open, and respected than M to F, particularly in TEXAS. The polarities are very different in public perception?

Basically I remain the outlier to the outliers...the .001%.

Carry on.

If you want to be more respected then its up to you to do your part for the cause so to speak.
There are people that aren't willing to do the work but will ride the coat tails of those that do.
Texas is no different than most anywhere in the USA.
Its hard for me to understand if you are "out" why hide in the shadows within your church, have you not accepted yourself?
I'm not a gender/social justice warrior either and you don't have to be, but why if given the chance to be involved in a group you run the other way?

Tracy G,

Superb negative rock throw, judgement and ugly comment. Well done. Feel better? Stoke your ego to put me down on this forum?

I have to agree with Tracii., I go to the Austin pride and there are several CD's there enjoying the day. So if you can get involved.

Gina,
That's the problem we can't have it both ways, if we want open acceptance it has to come at a price . You really should go along to show your gratitude for being invited even if you don't choose to make a formal speech , you could have invited other CDers if you know any . Surely there is more to gain by going than staying away .

I'm hoping to attend a pride gathering at the end of the month, it may be early days for me to be out like that but I do like to give something back to people who are prepared to go the extra mile. Hopefully if they support them they may support you .

Gina , I'm not here to put you down, sometimes the steps feel hard to take, we don't know all your circumstances , the only thing is the regrets we feel after . The plus point is members of the cloth won't give up, no doubt he will ask you again .

Please Gina chill out.
Tell me please where was I wrong and what did I say that wasn't true?
Sometimes it takes a view from the outside to help you see yourself in a different light.
It was not meant as a dig on you personally but maybe I struck a nerve and got you to take a look at yourself from a different perspective.

When I first came here I was put to the test by members here and they posed a lot of questions.
I was upset at first then I realized they were helping me and not hurting me.
I learned to look at myself and see things from both sides.

I have to say that the ever changing acronym thing is boggling my mind! I was exploring a therapist and saw a new one: LGBTQQA. I give up trying to figure out where I fit in that mess. People will think what they will about me, so let them. I'm not a gender warrior, but I do want to be accepted as Joyce. So, I have been following the advice Tracii gave you. We are here on this forum to learn. I can tell you that over the last two years I have learned a lot and grown in so many ways.

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Originally Posted by ginapoodle

All,
Upon some questions and answers: sure you are welcome, but there are no other M to F straight people.

I am not really surprised, and I declined all the invites. I am not a gender warrior type, nor do I wish to confuse, puzzle or explain myself in a social group.

Basically I remain the outlier to the outliers...the .001%.

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When my daughter was 6, she invited five girls and one boy to her birthday party. These were friends, nothing to do with gender. He came. He had a ton of fun. If he had not attended because he was the only boy invited, I'm not sure how I would have explained that to my daughter. It seems to me an invitation was extended and you declined. Maybe declined for the wrong reasons? Maybe the pastor invited you was because he wanted to make this social group more inclusive and open? Maybe he wasn't expecting a warrior to attend; maybe he was just expecting you? There always has to be a first person for everything. Sometimes it's scary, sometimes it's not.

That being said, you didn't tell us the questions you asked the pastor. There maybe more to the story that you wrote. But please don't be upset by what Tracii wrote as she asked some very valid questions to a public post. And don't be upset with my questions. They are only questions and my experiences. How you react is up to you.

AND BE THE OUTLIER. Nothing is cooler than that! : )

It's a lbgtq social group at your church and a pride parade. What are you afraid of? Why do you need to be a warrior? These are friendly poeple sure they are different then yourself but still friendly. I went to my first pride parade and festival last year I didn't feel like I was any kind of warrior and had a great time. I think what Traci was trying to say is you can't complain there is no T then refuse to be the T at least that's how I read it, and I agree. If your to the point you are ready to get out the get out have some fun .

hi gina,

surely your not going to let us decide what is right or wrong for your next endeavor.....i will speak from the experiences i have had though,

last year i took the initiative to start a meet-up group, found a LGBT club that had space and looked into using this venue....it was bumpy and i felt slighted at a few points but i now hold my meet-ups there.....i am disappointed at the turnouts at times.....and since this january i now volunteer 2 times a week at this club, i am normally the only "T" but i call my time volunteering coffee and "T" time, when others do show up its all good and even if i can only help 1 at a time there is nothing more fulfilling than helping a fellow human being cope, not all identify as i do and its all good.

i also attend p-flag meetings and my particular group is trans oriented, i am the outlier there as i stopped counting FtMs at the 50 mark :eek:

so im not the flag waving social warrior of my peers, i do as much as i can in the confines of my families comfort zone.

their is something to be learned with a little constructive criticism, as long as it it tactful and respectable....as far as the polarities in your area i could only speculate ?

what i can tell you is that with participation you will only get out of it what you put in, which is true of life in general :D

gina: You did what was comfortable for you at the time. I respect that. We all must do what we feel right, depending on the progression we have made in our life. I am an older T person and I have progressed to a point I don't really care what people think of me. However, had I been in your situation back years ago I would have run from the request to take the Pastor up on his invite.

I understand where you are coming from, many times people post here, just to share, but not seeking advise. Just like in real life we just want to vent, nothing more. I take the platform, that unless the person ask for advise, I don't offer any. I comment on post and share my own stories, etc. Hope that helps.

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I'm not a gender/social justice warrior either and you don't have to be, but why if given the chance to be involved in a group you run the other way?

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Superb negative rock throw, judgement and ugly comment.

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Ginapoodle....I have re-read posts....Tracy G wants you to attend the social functions. Could it have been written differently? Ive seen this before and when no inflections with just text and just words could be misinterpreted. If you dont want to attend social functions. That is cool and what makes you feel comfortable. You have our support! Thank you for your post and please keep posting....

Gina, I re-read Tracii's post and to me was judgmental. It was an attempt to shame you for not getting out there "for the cause". Those who want to be an activist "for the cause", go for it. Some of us just seek a little comfort, conversation, and companionship with others like us, often for the first time, for our own benefit.
...."ride the coattails"......gimme a break.

Gina;

It's understandable to want to go to church and social gatherings for peace and quiet, after all the rest of the week in this world is hectic and distracting enough.
Maybe in the future may want to to attend a small gathering as Gina, I'm sure you would be welcomed and who knows you may also encourage others, without having to be a social warrior.

I guess what bothered me was the "there will be no other straight people" comment. Is this important to the group? I would suspect it isn't either a sexual play group nor a dating site. It is a social group.

I say go. If you want to be part of the group, don't let their misconceptions stop you. I suspect it is a group trying to advance the cause, and as such the "T" are just as much a cause as anyone else. With any social movement though, the majority of the people in that group don't participate. They do gain from those who do, so by participating, you may be in fact blazing a trail for those who don't or can't and those who follow. I find that the L&G of the LGBT really don't want "us" tagging along and I think it is due to the small minority that makes the rest of world uncomfortable with "us". We are but into a box by media everyday, so what the rest of the world sees is that stereotype...the clown, drag, pervert or mentally unstable. You never see the media say "Transwoman saves cat for I-55 during rush hour" Nor do you see "Transman now captain of local fire department after scoring highest test in history" No, you see "Man robs bank wearing a dress" So, any exposure we make, showing the world we are good parents and citizens and yes...even church goers, can only be a positive, right?

But, if you don't feel the need, you don't have to do anything. If (I hope when) transpeople get equal rights, you can enjoy it as well as anyone.

I would call the pastor on the sexualizing of the being trans though. They need to know we aren't in this for sexual purposes. And in all honesty, a great many of the TS's ARE lesbian or bi. Our orientation doesn't change with hormones or surgery usually

Lorileigh, I have to differ with you. Trying to exclude those who make people uncomfortable is a certain way to devalue all of us and continue the stereotypes we are trying to show are not universal among us. Yes, they have lousy taste and the behavior makes us uncomfortable, but it may be they just don't know any better, in which case, education is a better solution than exclusion.
I have seen this exclusionary behavior in a number of groups that have tried to win equality and it is always self-defeating, because it says that there are some of "us" who should be discriminated against. Nobody's perfect and neither are all groups.
I've seen you display this behavior before in a way that was personally insulting to me although I chose not to make an issue of it at the time and think you should closely examine your motives in acting in this manner.
Just in case you wondered, I usually dress pretty conservatively and am a shy and retiring type, although having been out numerous times, but am not afraid of a fight particularly in supporting the rights of everyone to live as they choose.

Being closeted, I'm hardly a gender warrior. That being said, would love to be asked to go to an lgbt event.

Gina,
We do what we can. No one can ask any more of us. Still, "what we can" covers a lot of ground and I do believe that we all need to find our place on that ground. Setting aside the particular issue, that is part of the social contract, each giving what he or she can. I could be a "gender warrior". Lord knows that there's a part of me that longs to pick up the lance and charge into that fray, but for me, a headlong charge like that would be counterproductive in the end. It would put at risk my livelihood, possibly my marriage, friendships. You get the picture. So I quietly support the cause and those on the front lines. It all counts. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Donna I don't see where you are disagreeing. Are you saying they don't have the right to exclude someone from a social group? That wont fly. Every social group has limits as to who can join. If you are saying that preventing the T from the LGB group that is formed for support is wrong, that's what I said. The big difference is LGB are sexualities, T is an identity. In the T we are straight, gay and bi. Now if it is a social group, let's say bent on dating or partnering, then they should include gay/lesbian T's but why would a hetero T want to be in it? You would be marginalized at the gatherings,. you wouldn't share the things they formed a group for.

Since this is a church group, I would assume it would be a social group designed for bonding over the religious doctrine, not dating or partnering. So, they are wrong excluding, or suggesting that you would not be interested. It sends the signal, to me, that the group is based more on sexuality than on tenets of the church. That's why I said call them out on it. Educate them. They may not see what we see.

As to being a "gender warrior" I think there are enough of us out there fighting for you that just knowing you support us doesn't require physical participation. But remember, you win or lose with us too. So if you want equality, even if you are in the closet, standing up for those rights should be important to you

I agree with the last post.

I appreciate all the discussion. Many thoughts come to me, but I choose not to share all that I am. I will remain authentic my own journey.

Be true to yourself and do what you feel comfy doing.

I agree with Lorileah and Tracii...If it truly matters to your life,you will fight for it.

Quite frankly, I would rather be the only T in the room. I've had way too many negative experiences with all sorts of TG people: egos and rules run rampant, either that or within 5 minutes they're asking if you're bi. Yuck. Do yourself a favour and mingle with the hoi polloi, it's a lot more satisfying and they will judge you less.

Good point Angela being in a TG group where some feel its a competition can be squirrely.
Being the only one in the church group that isT you can be free to be different.

Looking hot Miss Ro LOL

Good point Tracii G..

Gina,
You are right to choose the path that suits you.

We can't all be gender warriors and fight every battle that comes along. Its a case of picking and choosing the battles where you feel you can make a difference. A social group might be the right place for some for others its a workplace. Sometimes its down to changing peoples minds one at a time.

The good news is that I have had some wonderful Gina time with wife and daughter gone visiting family including grandpa dying from Alzheimer's. To celebrate my day, I am wearing some vintage Hanes stockings, and nice lingerie. Slept in them last night: divine sensuality. And, it is even not too hot yet.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Donna I don't see where you are disagreeing. Are you saying they don't have the right to exclude someone from a social group? That wont fly. Every social group has limits as to who can join. If you are saying that preventing the T from the LGB group that is formed for support is wrong, that's what I said. The big difference is LGB are sexualities, T is an identity. In the T we are straight, gay and bi. Now if it is a social group, let's say bent on dating or partnering, then they should include gay/lesbian T's but why would a hetero T want to be in it? You would be marginalized at the gatherings,. you wouldn't share the things they formed a group for.

Since this is a church group, I would assume it would be a social group designed for bonding over the religious doctrine, not dating or partnering. So, they are wrong excluding, or suggesting that you would not be interested. It sends the signal, to me, that the group is based more on sexuality than on tenets of the church. That's why I said call them out on it. Educate them. They may not see what we see.

As to being a "gender warrior" I think there are enough of us out there fighting for you that just knowing you support us doesn't require physical participation. But remember, you win or lose with us too. So if you want equality, even if you are in the closet, standing up for those rights should be important to you

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No Lorileigh, this is where I disagree:

"I find that the L&G of the LGBT really don't want "us" tagging along and I think it is due to the small minority that makes the rest of world uncomfortable with "us"." - Lorileigh

"If we do not hang together we will certainly hang separately." -Benjamin Franklin

I certainly agree with my old friends Lorileah, Tracii and Rog. I do believe that, interestingly, they each represent a different segment under the TG umbrella. If that particular church wishes to exclude hetero CDs that most likely make up 80% of the entire LGBTQ communuty ---that's their right. I might question the reasoning but I have no reason to be insulted.
Julie

I was asked not to come back to my church of 6 years when I came out as a Trans woman. I say be grateful that your church has come this far. Go and educate the other LGB people and be yourself. As far as being a gender warrior yes there are plenty of us out here fighting for equality and we appreciate your support.

All,

Reading responses again, with more reflection, this quote comes to mind. Kudos to Lorileah!!

The big difference is LGB are sexualities, T is an identity. In the T we are straight, gay and bi. Now if it is a social group, let's say bent on dating or partnering, then they should include gay/lesbian T's but why would a hetero T want to be in it? You would be marginalized at the gatherings,. you wouldn't share the things they formed a group for.

Bingo, right to the point why I am uncomfortable going to a church, but social focused (lets date), and offsite social mixer. Focus is not on religion or Principles. Pastor confirmed, they have never had any M to F participation. As I am not gay or bi, my discomfort is extremely high and fit low. Its too bad as part of me would like to get out there and perhaps educate a bit. What I AM doing though is dialoging with three of our pastors on my T and gender dysphoric experiences, opinions and such.

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Originally Posted by Joyce P.

I have to say that the ever changing acronym thing is boggling my mind! I was exploring a therapist and saw a new one: LGBTQQA. I give up trying to figure out where I fit in that mess. People will think what they will about me, so let them. I'm not a gender warrior, but I do want to be accepted as Joyce. So, I have been following the advice Tracii gave you. We are here on this forum to learn. I can tell you that over the last two years I have learned a lot and grown in so many ways.

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Very well said Joyce. :)

For the life of me I never have been able to understand the obsession with labels this forum seem to have.

Well, i an still a man, and am a rugged individualist, in spite of my cding. I never did like any kind of "group think" A little John Wayne, in this Alice. Everyone is an individual, even if going to a group of any kind. i go to a 12 step Codependents Anonymous group, and am one of the only SINGLEs there. My issues are different from all the marrieds that are there, and i am kind of left out, for it, seldom am hugged now. I have always beena bit of a loner, like my dad was.

Well there are always different ways for cd /tg people to get out and socialize. And just as many ways to keep a more private lifestyle . All is ok for each to choose.
I agree with the idea that LGB doesnt always get the T from a deep level , but I think that the LGB gets the T from the perspective of being an outsider position. .
For that reason there is a connection of support that happens. Its not always a perfect match , but i think an invite can be measured as genuine . The church group (or any "lgbt" group)
Will probably tolerate a lot of variables in its membership .

.. i have met many crossdressers and self described trans people. The straight or gay or bi thing doesnt really make people turn away from eachother in sharing common experiences about crossgender/crossdresser ideas.

Gina,
I am confused. What is it, specifically, that is making you uncomfortable? Have the clergy or other members done or said something unwelcoming or hostile?

Kelly Marie,

Specifically I have been "hit on" several times at our church by various gay men looking. I trigger "gay-dar" even when wearing a wedding ring. My wife does not attend church with me. Wearing motorcycle leathers projects an image. Nope, I am not "leather man" -- they are to keep me safe, warm and dry during winter season riding.

I am not attracted, at all, to men. The pastors are not the issue, the male gay Senior pastor very much wants diversity, Unity and One-ness. I just can't get there in this venue.

Also I tend to be fairly introverted. Walking into a room full of mostly strangers, and being expected to explain myself as straight, M to F and T seems a bit toxic. It would be stressful as hell for me, and I also have no desire to broadcast to a large group my situation. My wife and friends that do not know about "Gina" likely would find out via wagging tongues. Poof goes any confidentiality and my wife would be mad as hell.

At my early sixties, I no longer feel I have to please others or "force" being an extravert when unwelcome. I guard my own peace and sanity.

Make sense?

Thanks for that clarification. It sounds like there is no fault with the clergy, nor its members. You just are trying to maintain your own sanity and comfort zones, which from what I understand, means minimal to zero interaction with the strangers at the church gatherings. Plus, you do not want to be found out, and that chance may truly increase if you are out at your church. Just enjoy what you have and live your life as you want under your own self instituted restrictions. If you do need to get out to test the waters or enjoy new experiences you can do that far from home when you get or make the chance. Good luck.

Gina I think I understand where you are coming from. I used to attend two groups that were predominantly gay and lesbian and some girls who were transitioning. As a straight CDer at times I did feel like the red headed step-child. One group I stopped attending for that reason, I felt that I was ignored. The other group I did stick with and after a while I felt comfortable and made friends with all the groups. I stopped attending eventually in that it was too far away.
I'm no warrior but you make your own comfort zone.