Are guilt and shame always bad?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...good-shame-bad



The link above relates to emotions that are quite familiar experience for many of us. I've often been counseled to let go of the feelings of guilt or shame that I've come to associate with crossdressing. I've even been advised that guilt can be good, and shame "bad".

Its easy to get lost in a tangential debate about definitions, for the purpose of this thread, I see guilt and shame as synonymous, at least when associated with acknowledged responsibility for behaviors and choices. But it seems from this article that one needs to differentiate between feeling guilty for ones behavior and feeling ashamed for being ..."fill in the blank". The former is a emotional response to acknowledging one's responsibility, the latter an ill defined blanket condemnation of self.

My question is whether such emotions can have some positive value in helping some people resist or overtime quell the desire to cross dress?

At least in the short to medium term, I suspect guilt can be an effective deterrent, and maybe it loses its potency over time. I'm also a bit concerned about the emotional and perhaps even physical consequences of carrying around a load of guilt and shame.

Any thoughts?

I have never felt guilty about my dressing and have not experienced shame from it either. I hope I am just different and there isn't something wrong with me.

I think it really depends on how you deal with those feelings. These feelings are normal, but if either causes you to be self-destructive then it is bad.

Never felt shame or guilt for dressing in womens clothes.
I have felt guilt and shame for being very overweight at times.

I remember Dr. Joyce Brothers saying that shame is good. Maybe that's so, but forgiving yourself is also good as it unloads guilt and shame.

As a Psychiatric subject I would throw just about all of the text out of the window!

Guilt and shame have been a deterrent for years to crossdressers. That's why we have things like pride festivals. What the movement in general is trying to accomplish is to allow people to love without guilt or shame about who they are.

So yes, shame and guild can discourage crossdesssing, but saying they have "positive value" is like saying anorexia has a positive value in weight loss.

No guilt or shame from me also. Would not have proceeded with dressing if those feelings were present.

I have guilt, shame and depression. Guilt and shame don't inhibit my desire to dress. I don't want to stop dressing.

The depression does slow things down. I'm starting with a new therapist, we'll see how that goes.

Kim, I have suffered both guilt and shame all my life, from my older brothers, religion, and society. It was just because of being alive, bedwetting until i was about 20, picked on in school, bullied a lot, bosses, teachers, etc. I have been to VA therapists, 12 step groups, church, dumped on strangers about my ills. I do have guilt and shame yet, about dressing as a woman, too. It has kept me from going out in public most of the time, and kept me 99% in the closet. My male self has also suffered tons of G and S. I read some of John Bradshaw's books, and watched his videos on You tube, . "Healing the Shame that Binds You" is one of his books. i also have used Roy Masters' meditation, "Be Still And Know". Being still, and knowing I am an imperfect human, that is capable of doing better, but accepts i have weaknesses, helps. I see my dressing as art, too, and creativity. But to be very honest, some of it is repressed sexual lust, for the female look, and form, which is sorely missing in this very old bachelor's life, too. I never had any real chance for a steady girfriend, or wife, because of a very sick upbringing, that kept me away from girls, and later, women. I seeit as a coping mechanism, for lack of closeness with other human beings, too, and lack of love. I do strive to be a decent man, and help others a lot, and care about others. As Alice , i feel complete in a way, but after some time dressed, i do acceept that i must go back to my male mode. Actually, it is me, and only me, whether all dolled up, or in guy mode. i am the same person. The guilt and shame come and go, and are not as severe as years ago. i would fast, not drink nor eat for a day, after dressing, or solo sex! i accept now, that this is just one compartment of me.

They may have that effect, but at a cost where one experiences generally low self esteem, depression, anxiety and perhaps other negative emotions and thoughts.

I don't look at the two synonymously. For one, guilt is more current whereas shame is more of a past tense. Also, shame is a result of actions which have caused harm and is more external in nature. To be shamed by others.... Whereas guilt can only truly be felt internally, regardless of others attempts to make you feel that way. If someone is successful in making another feel guilt, it is either because the person feeling guilty has a true reason to feel that way or is not a very strong minded or willed individual and is susceptible to others dictating how they think and feel. Granted though there is not a ton of difference between shame and guilt. I just don't look at them as one in the same. Similarly I view jealousy and envy as not quite the same but that is for another convo.

For those of us whose gender is not so clearly defined, or a combo of both, or the opposite of birth gender, complete denial and suppression is all but always a horrible thing. I see it as magma under a volcano. It tends to build up pressure until it breaks through. In the case of something like a mt st helens, or Pompeii or other historic eruptions, that is what happens when it is not allowed a place to vent or flow. Eventually it blows through and causes far more destruction then if it were allowed to vent and flow. I think the better approach is to figure out how best to allow it to vent and flow.

Kim,
They are totally destructive feelings to most CDers, they lead to suppression and depression and possibly worse.

Why do so many of us end up with counselling ? To shake off those feelings and come to terms with our true feelings .

True Guilt and True Shame is constructive as in I stole a car and feel guilty and shameful for what i did to someone else. (it is my fault)

False Guilt and False Shame is destructive as in My brother stole a car and I feel guilty and shameful for how his actions reflect on me. (it's someone elses fault)

Guilt and shame should never be a part of our lives. Guilt? only if dressing is being totally hidden form a loved one. As for shame nobody should feel shameful because they are a dresser. There is nothing shameful attached to what we are all doing.
I have no guilt or shame whatsoever, if more people were more open about themselves in general there would be no need to feel guilty or shameful.

For some reason this thread is making me want to put on a costume from the GoT nun and follow random people around shouting "Shame!" Yes, I'm weird

Honestly, I'm impressed by the number of you who enjoy a life free of shame or guilt over CDing. That's something I have never experienced.

I'm inclined to accept the idea that one should differentiate a feeling of guilt (accepting responsibility for ones actions) from a feeling of shame, (a loss of worth due to real or imagined faults?) I think Alice has suffered more direct and pervasive guilt, shame and genuine injury than most of us from what surely are abuses inflicted by family etc....and has come to terms with it.
In contrast, I haven't really ever been bullied, I've managed to have sustained relationships, children, and something of a working life...and carried the feelings of guilt and shame as an extra load. My dad once described me as being "hard", as compared to another brother that he considered to be "soft"... I took that as a compliment. But it seems that my life has fractured under the stress twice as a result of my nature and the burden of shame.

As I try to rebuild from the last major structural failure, I'm wondering if I can use the guilt constructively, without at the same time rekindling feelings of self doubt/loathing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter

True Guilt and True Shame is constructive as in I stole a car and feel guilty and shameful for what i did to someone else. (it is my fault)

False Guilt and False Shame is destructive as in My brother stole a car and I feel guilty and shameful for how his actions reflect on me. (it's someone elses fault)

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This exactly.
Pretty much what is wrong with the world today nobody will admit they could be wrong and its always someone elses fault.
A friend of mine lost his job for fighting with an employee and I asked him what happened and he said the guy made him mad so he hit him.
I said you shouldn't have hit him and he said well its his fault because he made me mad.
Told the friend to grow up and take responsibility for his actions and go find a job.
He hasn't spoke to me since which has been kinda nice.LOL
Kim maybe you associate guilt with pleasure and have been trained to not be a pleasurable person.
Or pleasure is not something you think you can have.
If you enjoy something its inherently wrong and you feel guilty for having experienced it.

oh, Tracii, I'll concede that I'm far from the most enjoyable person to be around 24/7. And I'll accept the possibility that I have managed associate (some) pleasure with guilt or shame. But in this case, its not the cross dressing itself that I blame for the guilt....but rather the harm I have inflicted that I feel guilty about.

My $.02! Learn from your guilt and shame and move on with your life! Do not wallow in your guilt and shame! Hugs Lana Mae

2 cents are always appreciated! Wallowing is probably a bad thing...being stuck in a situation is certainly bad if you don't particularly like the situation. Maybe the better question is should one use guilt as a motivator for behavioral change?

As Lana Mae said, learn from it. I felt guilt and shame until I understood my feelings, embraced them and made them my own. That is a win-win situation and makes you a stronger person overall.:battingeyelashes::)

Not to be argumentative...just a question. Does "learning from it" only refer to learning to accept one's "feelings" (i.e. Need/desire/inclination to cross dress) or using the guilt as a part of learning to avoid behaviors that cause harm in one's life and the lives of those around us?

Learning usually comes from Pain avoidance

In life, Change will only occur when the pain of Not Changing is greater then the pain of Changing

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

Learning usually comes from Pain avoidance

In life, Change will only occur when the pain of Not Changing is greater then the pain of Changing

Reading this thread. I never felt guilty on dressing and never felt shame. But when I accepted myself it opened a new path for me. That is what I call liberation. For one why have shame and why guilty. Either dress or not dress and We need to but why feel guilty over it. Why carry all that baggage. It can only hurt you in the long run.

"The bite of guilt is like the bite of a dog into a stone- it is stupidity."

- Nietzsche

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dana44

Reading this thread. I never felt guilty on dressing and never felt shame. But when I accepted myself it opened a new path for me. That is what I call liberation. For one why have shame and why guilty. Either dress or not dress and We need to but why feel guilty over it. Why carry all that baggage. It can only hurt you in the long run.

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Let's say it is Not guilt over dressing...but guilt over harming a loved one.... would that make a difference?

Yes, that makes a huge difference, Kim. But let's be crystal clear on this, there is no rational reason for you to feel guilt over your TG nature. It is your nature, as in "something you were born with". You know perfectly well that we can't choose to not be TG. You can choose to align yourself with that nature and resolve the conflict within yourself, or you can choose to do nothing and suffer for it. Until you have enough respect and love for yourself to see to your own happiness and well being, you should probably not think about bringing someone else into the mix.
Be who it is that you are most happy being. When you get that worked out, relationships will grow from a much healthier footing.

Hugs,

Kelly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teresa

Kim,
They are totally destructive feelings to most CDers, they lead to suppression and depression and possibly worse.

Why do so many of us end up with counselling ? To shake off those feelings and come to terms with our true feelings .

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I agree with Teresa; guilt and shame are bad. I felt a lot of shame when I was younger. I knew that crossdressing was "wrong" but I really liked crossdressing. I went to therapy for a long time about my crossdressing after my wife discovered some of my clothes. The best result was getting rid of my guilt and shame and accepting my whole self. It made me much stronger when my wife was expressing how much she disliked my crossdressing. I was able to feel, "I like it, and if you don't that's too bad. I'll respect you and not do it in front of you, but I'll still do it." We're still DADT, but I go out a lot. Steffi has a lot more friends than I do.

Oh yes, for many years, I felt very guilty and much shame because of my crossdressing. I would put on the underclothes, get excited and then feel very guilty and yes much shame. It took a long time for me to realize that I was born like this and this is me. I'm not hurting anyone and God loves all of us. The desire to dress is not gone by any means but the guilt is gone.

In my experience of decades guilt/shame I have to say it is always bad and leads to the Dark Side. How would Master Yoda put it?

Guilt and shame leads to pain. Pain leads to suffering. Suffering leads to bitterness. Bitterness leads to hate. Hate leads to anger and conflict. And no I am not joking! The best thing anyone like us can do is throw off the guilt and shame as quickly as they can, just throw it in the trash because it isn't worth keeping around to torture yourself.

After reading the article, I'd say my personal opinion is that guilt and shame are *always* bad -- that's why they're cast as negative emotions. But sometimes guilt or shame are *appropriate* reactions we have to our own behavior when we feel we have failed to meet our own standards. Using their definitions, shame is always destructive but to me shame can be constructive as we remember the sense of shame and use it as a motivator to avoid the shameful behavior in the future. I think the difference between their view and mine is that they view the shame sense as a static "I am a horrible person unworthy of love (and am incapable of change)" emotion, and I see it as "I did a horrible thing, I feel unworthy, and resolve never to make myself feel that way again." ;)

"My question is whether such emotions can have some positive value in helping some people resist or overtime quell the desire to cross dress? "


Kim, the premise of this, though unstated but suggested, is that crossdressing is bad, so anything that can be used to suppress the desire to crossdress (guilt and shame) is good.

I had the desire to crossdress at an early age, and in a different time before the internet allowed me to access information and when crossdressing was generally considered deviant behavior in need of correction. Thinking I must be broken, I kept it to myself and had those guilt and shame thoughts.

In time I came to believe that my crossdressing is an attribute, not a flaw, and the G and S went away.

It was never G and S that suppressed my CDing desire, actually nothing suppresses it. But my CDing activities were (and is) suppressed for practical considerations. My wife knows and accepts, but otherwise I keep it private. My other family, friends, and coworkers don't need to know.

I don't consider my desire to crossdress a bad thing that needs to be resisted or quelled. I just enjoy it privately without guilt and shame.

I have read some reports of criminals who couldn't live with their guilt and shame, and turned themselves. In these cases G and S had a positive effect. But crossdressing isn't a crime (here in the U.S. anyway).

Again, I don't mean to imply that CDing is bad...although many (most...all) of us have experienced a degree of each for the mere fact that we have cross dressed.

I lean towards the perspective that guilt and shame exist as emotions as part of a complete and healthy psyche. Only sociopaths live without experiencing them. Perhaps their purpose in a healthy mind is to enable us to learn from and avoid repetition of actions that are (or are perceived as) harmful to others. Not the cross dressing itself, mind you, but the perceptions of it held by someone you value as a part of your life....if they are distressed by it...well, then maybe its helpful to feel guilty as a way to motivate change. The nature of that change....the resolve to reduce that distress....is something else altogether.

Just as relates to wearing women's clothing in the distant past I did feel shameful. How would this occur? As I have just ended my seventh decade of this planet my experiences over the years has varied greatly. I first tried on one of my mother's rompers from the 1930's when I was visiting my grandparents. I had absolutely nothing to do. My parents did not tell me to pack some toys. Or a book. No television to watch. I could not go down to the daylight basement to mess around. Total boredom. I felt nothing other than it gave me something to do. I remember my parents were not thrilled, but, there was no trip to the woodshed. No guilt. No shame.

Later, something clicked in my mind and I was drawn to my mother's nylon slips. I would fondle them. I loved the feel of nylon. The fabric was like nothing I experienced with my boy clothes. Finally I tried them on. Loved it. I felt no shame or guilt. Up to this point nobody told me what I was doing was WRONG. I was not indoctrinated by social norms and expectations yet. Somewhere along the way I gain some "knowledge" that wearing women's clothing was a sign of being a "queer," a "faggot," and "fruit" and some other choice words. So, I formed the opinion that wearing women's clothing = homosexuality = bad. Total confusion. I lusted after Annette Funicello and others. Since gayness was equated with a moral deficiency I felt shame. I think most people will believe conforming to societal norms and expectations is a good thing. Minor deviations are OK. But, there are core values to adhere to.

It took a very long time to realize there was a lot of misinformation going around. Wearing women's clothing does not equate to homosexuality. So, I am straight, but, still wearing women's clothing? Still confusing. There were no resources available to self psychoanalyze myself. No Dr. Google. You youngsters have the Internet or you would not be on this site. You realize what we are doing is not "bad." Reactions people have are not what we hope for, and, we have to deal with that. Their problem is also our problem because of the varying degrees of non acceptance.

I no longer ascribe to the notion wearing women's clothing is wrong. My wife is not on board with it. It is her problem, but, that also makes it my problem. I do not rub it in her face because of the bond between us. I know her background and reasons for reluctance to embrace my cross dressing. I am comfortable with my level of cross dressing. Others may not be so, but, I am.

When I sat down and thought out all this over the years I did reflect on the scale of life. It is weighed down heavily on the side of societal norms and expectations. I've done all the things society thought was good..as a male. I would conjecture there are not very many on this site who can say they have done or experienced some really traumatic experiences I have. I feel comfortable. No shame or guilt for anything I have done. Cross dressing is the least of them.

Sigh ... being human is hard.

Go to a crowded shopping mall, or a sporting event, an airport or a subway station. Look around you and realize that between the ears of every single person in existence, there is a well as endlessly deep, convoluted and mysterious as your own. This IS the human experience. For you, there is cross-gender expression mixed into that experience. For others it might be thrill seeking, it might be substance abuse, or sexual infidelity, or it might be something way out there and as completely off my radar as crossdressing is to most other people.

Knowing that, first cut yourself some slack.

Second: check your frame of reference. We are not perfect beings, born into a perfect world and corrupted through our own failings. Me, you, Donald Trump, your cat, your dog, and the bacteria in your gut digesting breakfast are simply this: the end result of billions of years of nature answering this one simple question: "did it survive long enough to reproduce?"

We have acne, wisdom teeth, heart failure, kidney disease, diabetes ... hell ... an astronomical number of us would completely blind and helpless without the technology of eyeglasses. So when people start talking about how cross-gender expression "isn't natural" ... well ... sorry hun, but that ship sailed like 600 years ago. 99.999% of us live lives that are completely and totally unnatural, and we'd be dead if we didn't.

In that context, ask yourself what the purpose of guilt and shame even are. How did these constructs come to exist in nearly every human who ever lived?

My point of view is that these constructs of guilt and shame are a survival instinct. Organisms survive longer in cooperative groups ... that is, communities. Cooperation is built on terms ... rules ... and rules cannot be constructed without generalizations. In that way, societies are literally built on abstraction and generalizations ... societies cannot exist without papering over the fact that while in some ways we are all the same ... we are also, each and every one of us ... infinitely different.

Guilt and shame are internalizations of the rules of the community we grew up in. These are survival instincts to help us fit into the society we live in ... to enhance our survival prospects and to henhance the longevity of the society itself.

These emotions have utility for sure, but are also in many ways out of place in the world we live in today. Guilt and fear are far from the only emotions in this category.

Take anxiety for instance. It arises from a deep place. It is baked into our DNA ... it's a survival instinct. Without it, our ancestors would not have survived predators and earthquakes and the rest. Today, almost no humans are killed by predators or the weather. It does happen, but not that often. Nonetheless, our old friend anxiety is still along for the ride, and a whole lot of us get around it by ingesting drugs to keep it at bay.

So ... I have waxed philosophical on this Saturday morning for sure, lol.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this ... take what little you can that is positive from guilt and shame, but then treat it ... exactly like you would acne, or nearsightedness or anxiety.

Kinda where I am leaning, Amy. Not so much feeling ashamed of who I am, just recognizing that in the aftermath, I have these emotions that I can perhaps use to good purpose or allow them to drive me into depressive isolation. Beside progressive deafness, occasional aches and pains, and the other progressions of aging, I'm doing fairly well....save this one continuing thing, a feeling that I somehow can undo what has happened if I can re-do myself. I know its magical thinking. I can't undo and even if I succeed in apparently "redoing" it won't alter the past. Sigh....deep sigh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

I'm wondering if I can use the guilt constructively, without at the same time rekindling feelings of self doubt/loathing... using the guilt as a part of learning to avoid behaviors that cause harm in one's life and the lives of those around us... guilt and shame exist as emotions as part of a complete and healthy psyche

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Guilt and shame are corrosive when they become ingrained habits, and plenty here seem to be saddled with them long term. Perhaps g & s may be helpful as pointers, but only if they can be moved on from.

Guilt and shame should not enter ones mind in the general run of things if one is relating it to dressing alone then NO it should not become a thought slowly eating its way deeper until one needs help.

Truth be told, I needed help a long time ago....blew up a marriage and finally sought it out, got somewhat better at coping, then gradually allowed myself to slip back into old (and some new) destructive behaviors...blew up a marriage, sought help, and have gotten somewhat better at coping and controlling my behaviors. Now, we shall see.

Guilt, for me at least, seems to be an effective motivator.

I have found there is such a thing and toxic shame that's about who I am. Healthy shame or guilt is about wha I've done.
Amanda