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So, it occurred to me today that it seems like there are many more M2F folks out there than the other way around. I may be wrong about this speculation, and if so, I apologize. But assuming for a second I'm correct, why do you think that is? Is it because women can already exhibit male behavior, particularly dress, without an issue and often it's considered stylish? Something else? What are your thoughts?
Staphanie,
I would say because it's more a sexual thing in men , the clothes tend to be more of a turn on, in a woman clothes may be worn to turn us on. Basically we are the ones that naturally have to be sexually aroused .
A TS was telling me that in a clinic in Manchester there were now more F/M than M/F . Who wants to be a guy , they're not missing anything ?
Teresa is on to something. Men a re turned on by almost anything that reminds them of the female form, including their sensual, stretchy, silky clothing and photogenic shoes. Guy clothes seem drab. Why women would want to look like guys, baffles me, unless they are more masculine in mind.
There are so many here that say it's not sexual for them, I'm not convinced that the turn-on explanation works.
(But it is a turn-on for me).
Why are there more right-handed people than lefties?
It would appear to me that there are less of us than them. The numbers of transmen is mind staggering. But they don't make headlines like we do, that's all.
Genny B
As I am starting to get out a bit and slowly meeting people, I have met met more women that identity as trans then men. I believe it is normal for others to assume that they are gay in the same way as people often assume a male cder is gay. I don't personally know any male currently going through transition ( though do know one that has) but know two females that have started and one other that is waiting to come of legal age. I guess once transitioned you wouldn't know and after all the pain and trouble to go through the process wouldn't want to identify as exfemale. Why would you.
Stephanie. I believe there are many more f to M's than m to f's. I see many women wearing guys clothes every day. The answer to that baffles me. Why on earth would anyone want to wear male clothes.
Wearing women's clothing, now that I understand. Women's clothing feels better, it looks better.
When you look at history... Guys were the first to wear tights. Guys were the first to wear lace shirts. Guys were the first to have pierced ears. May be we are early explorers to the next generation where men dress in what today is considered feminine clothing.
What ever the answer is, I am glad that I am me. A cross dressing male.
I believe among younger trans people there are more FTM than MTF. This is my opinion and I'm just guessing. Like some of us they believe they are the opposite of their biological gender and just want to be their true self. We are all in the same boat but some are on the starboard side and want to be on the port side and visa versa.
We always get in trouble when we assume things.
Cheryl we have had many threads here on men wearing ruffles,powdered wigs.lace shirts,tights, shoes with heels all that. They did because that because i was the accepted style in that day. None of that was womens clothes.
The official population studies say there are more transmen than transwomen. You probably don't see them here because this forum is specifically male-to-female crossdressing and the site overall seems to have a strong MtF component.
Interestingly, I'm reading a book right now that summarizes transgender research up to 2015 and they have eliminated some of the old favorite mechanisms we like to speculate on. For example, they have ruled out sex/fetish as a cause of transgenderism because the sexual aspect dissipates with exposure, but the TG aspects remain. When I finish the book I'll try to summarize it in a new thread. The current favorite as a theory is that it is a two-step combination of genetics and epigenetics that happens during gestation (i.e. there is an external factor combined with a genetic disposition.) If true, then our pitch that we are born this way will be confirmed.
Well it depends if you are talking TS or crossdressing, not the same thing, not the same numbers. I think this topic has been raised her at least once or twice.
Depending on which research (and conclusion) you ascribe to, there are many different theories. I tend to believe that, first off, males displaying feminine characteristics are more discouraged than the converse. This lack of acceptance can do a couple of things. Lead to repression, or act as a neutral zone barrier. No one cares if a girl is a tomboy, in fact it is often rewarded. But the other way is not. Maybe those feminine characteristics remain hidden until they overwhelm the individual and they jump the barrier. Kind of like electron hole theory.
Girls can be kind of, guy is or aint. Maybe. Plus it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind. Guys are stuck with their stupid decisions ;)
Umm, I see multiple studies showing M2F'ers are 2 or even 3 times more likely than F2M'ers (and sometimes even higher).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat (aka Jennie)
At "best," every now & then a study will show it kinda-sorta approaching a 1:1 parity when its survey questions are pretty vague re: how they feel about their gender...
I recommend some of the threads by FtM folks on this site. It's remarkable that they have the same paranoia that we see from MtF folks -- fear about going into the men's section of a store; fear of buying male clothing because they're convinced people will know it's for them; fear of coming out to parents or SO's, etc. And if being "a Tomboy" is rewarded, how are we to interpret the transmen who are assaulted or killed? Not as frequently as transwomen of color, but still it happens. Transmen have done jail time for wearing men's clothes. This is no picnic for either type of trans person and the meme of transmen having it easier is rather upsetting in an age where information is so easy to find if you look for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meghan4now
Studies I have seen tend to reflect what you are saying. Also in going to group therapy meetings which include both transmen and transwomen, the numbers appear to be fairly equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat (aka Jennie)
Darn. Hoist by my own petard. I was working from old sources. The very same book that I mentioned I was currently reading that summarizes information up through 2015 says:Quote:
Originally Posted by laurababe
The remark about "Conway and the engineers" just references a population frequency study technique that was used to get a rate for MtF transgender folks that the author felt was more accurate than the classic method which uses numbers of people seeking clinical help. So the latest story is that there are more MtF than FtM and I apologize for the disinformation.:oQuote:
Studies of the population frequencies of FTM TG follow a similar pattern to those of MTF TS except that the frequencies are consistently lower and there is no research contribution from Conway and the engineers. The frequencies are at least half those of the MTF studies but over the years, the frequencies are trending upwards.
Bevan, Thomas. The Psychobiology of Transsexualism and Transgenderism: A New View Based on Scientific Evidence: A New View Based on Scientific Evidence (p. 54). ABC-CLIO. Kindle Edition.
Everyone knows girls have more fun.
Of course I want to be a girl. Still do.
According to some figures they are actually about equal. And there may be a trend to more women transitioning to being men than men becoming women. Problem is, any data is really based on those who actually transition and not the part-timers like most of us who don't transition. No good data from that group. So, any conclusions are necessarily biased because of sampling bias. Not much you can do about it. I think the sexual aspect for males who emulate women is a big factor in creating an erroneous picture. I have known two transmen and neither of them ever experienced the sexual component that men experience when they were feminine/female. For them it was an intense internal need as it is for transwomen. Sex had nothing to do with it and even among the transwomen I have known (quite a few more of those) sex is a minor component. Sex seems to be more of a factor in identity shifts among part-timers. That may be an important distinction that gets somewhat lost in the rhetoric.
This is the important point that the OP didn't specify. As far as crossdressers go, historically there have been far more MtF and I believe it's because of the sexual aspect. While it's true that most CDs on this site claim there's no sexual thrill in dressing, it seems most started out that way during adolescence. Those feelings don't completely go away and it's a strong force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meghan4now
As far as transsexualism goes, there seems to be an increase FtM TS and those numbers are probably higher than MtF now days.
could it be that FTM don't feel the need for an on line community on which to discuss their clothing choices/gender presentation?
Maybe we're forgetting something. Go to a crowded mall and you'll notice that most females are wearing female versions of traditionally male clothing. Pants and shirts and athletic shoes.
Their crossdressing is just normal and accepted.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meghan4now
Female CDs are all around us.
One more thing .
For SRS......it is medically easier to go from M to F than from F to M... as far as functionality and appearance.
I don't know about the numbers but, I have met a few F2M , if they don't tell you who they are you could not pick them out of a crowd. They have the same problems with acceptance from family, friends, and the public as we do.
Hiya
Well though not officially recognising that they have adopted Crossdressing, most women crossdress as most women today wear trouser suits, slacks, jeans, shorts(Hot Pants) and so on, some even go as far as to have short cut hair does, so yep I think they know what they are doing and no one bats an eye lid. A Crossdresser after doning the skirt or dress and gave make up a fair shot, will either luckily not be clocked, whilst unluckier ones will. seems women have it for now. That said Men are now buying skirts due to an increase in Male skirts. So hey the tables have started to turn, even though this is in New York mainly at the moment.
First off, Pat, thank you for your observation on FTM TS experience of personal acceptance and relational difficulties.
I stick by my comment for the general population however, as an impetus to cross dressing. I do not think that women wearing slacks are crossdressers, and women crossdressers are in fact far rarer than male crossdressers. But because of more acceptance of masculine (sterotypical) behavior in females than the converse reduces the NEED for females to crossdress for them to celebrate that expression vs the male to female experience.
That's the same thing women think about us to be honest. They are always baffled as to why we would want to wear heels and hosiery, dresses? maybe a bit more understanding about the freedom a dress provides. It's a hard question to answer, probably the one that comes right after "why?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
My first thought on reading the OP’s post was a Japanese anime cartoon in which a crossderssing dad was elated that his son also wanted to be a crossdresser. The dad went on and on about how “only a man can truly cross-dress, because women already routinely wear male clothes!” He has a point. A woman wearing pants or pieces of male attire is so common that no one notices, in most countries. She has to sport facial hair or use a packer in her pants to present a male bulge down there, before anyone assumes she is trying to be seen as a male. Even cutting her hair in a short male style doesn’t get the same effect as a male wearing an obviously feminine blouse, skirt or wig. They just think she is lesbian if she severely crops her hair.
Among the transgender community, as opposed to cross dressers, it seems to me that the FtM trans men ‘pass’ much better than most MtF trans women do. In part this may be because hormone therapy works better for FtM than for MtF. But I think it is also because an effeminate male is still more likely to be seen and accepted as male than a woman with masculine traits is to be accepted as a woman. So unless they tell you, it is quite likely that you see far more trans males than you realize. Trans men are less visible.
I have met quite a few people in the CD, Trans and Drag Queen communities, in two very different geographical regions. This includes both social groups and therapy/support groups. MtF seems more common in all of them, by a 3 to 1 margin or better, when one excludes obvious or known lesbians who dress male while still presenting female. But this may just be because the FtM guys need less support, because they pass easier. I have talked to quite a few FtM trans men, and yes, they often have the same struggles that MtF women face. But once they cross the hurdle of coming out as trans, and get fairly well along in their transition, it seems easier for them to vanish back into society, comfortable in their new gender role.
Here is a blanket YES!
Remember the 1980's Women's power suit? I do, and know that the clothing and styles covered the lesbian activities which covered up by some!
Now I'm thinking about men's rights?
Not that, either. Numerous hot hetero females like to cut their hair off because of the hassle of taking care of long hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceera
If you're a woman, and you've got a banging bod, you'll still be attractive to enough men even if you have NO hair.
Especially the married ones; they feel that once they've 'caught' their husband, looking physically attractive isn't worth the effort. To most women, appearance isn't as important as assets, income, and social status. A guy can look like a troll if he's rich and important enough, and still be a great 'catch'.
I'm not sure of the what the exact ratio of mtf vs ftm is. There is no real way to know, much as there is no way to know how many men crossdress. All because so many of all mentioned, are closeted.
Haha, yes he could be orange and have the world's worst comb over, but because he is rich means he is successful, and therefore a catch!
Probably not as lopsided as it appears. The reason being is that in western (most) society today, there is much more strict expectations of what men should and shouldn't do and how they should or shouldn't dress. F.t.m. are basically out in plain sight, and it isn't the spectacle that it is for mtf.
Where I work we seem to attract the FtM people. However out of all of the manly women we have only a couple who are pursuing transition. Most of them are living in a lesbian relationship , have short hair and dress only in male clothing. And that seems to be enough they don't feel the need to pursue any further transition. And while that stretches the norm for alot of women it really isn't that strange anymore. So I say that actually transitioning people the numbers are probably roughly equal, but the number of women actually living as men is alot higher. But if we all were brave enough to actually dress the way we wanted to they may be more even.
This was very interesting! I've never really thought about the F2M population, in depth, until now, so I did some web searching. I'm now gonna wonder about every youngish man I see with a beard .. look at his hand, check for an adams apple, etc.. As a result, I'll probably wonder even more! May all such F2M folks find peace and success.
Probably there are more M2F than F2M because all the M's are already half-female to begin with. All males are born with both an X female chromosome and a Y male, whereas females are born with only X chromosomes. As the old saying goes, "It's Complicated," but there is a gene which triggers the growth of male characteristics, and that gene is absent in females. If it's flawed or damaged then it is possible that certain masculine traits will not develop. If you want to go beyond that simplistic comment, there's a whole internet full of information on the subject out there waiting to be explored.
I don't think it's sexual. My theory is that men essentially have few choices and women have so many; it's this double standard of women essentially being able to have their cake and eat it too that, in my opinion, is why there are more MTF than FTM.
I don’t mean to be rude, but this thread is kind of pointless without reliable facts. Otherwise you’re literally speculating about speculation.
Cos women are sexy and they know it!
I have 2 theories...
The first one is that women already dress a lot like men these days anyway. Jeans, boots, t-shirts ect, have become excepted everyday items for women, therfore we think nothing of a woman in a pair of rugged jeans, but a man in a dress still sticks out like a sore thumb.
My second theorie is that we all start with an X cromozone, making female the default gender. It is not until conception that we get a second X making a female or a Y a male. Look = XX=female, XY= male.... Also, that XY combination needs the right hormonal balance as a fetus to develop "normally" That balance is easily disrupted by undue stresses on the expectant mother.
I would guess that we are fairly evenly distributed male to female / female to male. I think that the issue is that male to female crossdressers and transgendered women have a greater stigma attached. I don't know why. The writer Julia Serrano talks about this.
Really? I can only think of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genny B
I have a theory that gender operates on a bell curve. Most folks are clustered around the mean that is they are cisgendered. Some folks or transgender. Some consider themselves without gender. Between the two there is continuous variation.
Sadly, I think part of the increase in FtM is because of the way that men have society set up in their favour. It's what my SO refers to as the patriarchy. It's problably not the main reason, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a factor.
I would say that we are about equal with FTM and MTF. because when every we see them talking to congress. they are away FTM's and it is hard to tell them from men. But us out and about are more definable and get outed more often.
I'd pretty much have to agree with your assessment. First off, women have FAR MORE latitude than men do when it comes to style/fashion. If a woman wants to wear her hair short, she does. If a guy wants to wear a bob or a "do" or even braids, it's "What's up with HIM???" And, as you mention, no one bats an eye if a gal walks into the men's section of a clothing store, grabs some jeans & a flannel shirt then tries them on. I know I drew more than one wary eye when I'd shop gowns & robes for my wife many years ago. So in today's world, women are already accepted as "casual" crossdressers. And no one questions their motivation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150 Girl
Modern fashion trends encourage this. Are there counterparts to "boyfriend shirts" or "boyshorts?" Can you imagine walking into a men's store and picking up some "girlfriend blouses" or "pantyshorts???" :)
Lacy PJs