A rather apropos article for this forum. https://www.racked.com/2018/4/23/172...ng-men-dresses
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A rather apropos article for this forum. https://www.racked.com/2018/4/23/172...ng-men-dresses
Fascinating article!
It totally nails the absurdity of the societally-imposed gender binary (and divide) that we as males are expected to rigidly adhere to. That whole concept really does defy logic, but then again, it is all about power politics and keeping the patriarchy unassailable.
I feel fortunate that I have had the self-confidence and intestinal fortitude to throw off those shackles, but that did come at the cost of enduring years of unnecessary and debilitating guilt to finally get to that point.
Excellent article. Thanks for the link. It cohesively expresses the sentiments we read every day in this forum.
Even before I realized all of this, I felt that those who criticized gay/trans people were not secure in their own sexuality and that was why they were so prejudice! I think they are afraid they might "catch" it! Hugs Lana Mae
"The display of skirts on men is effectively an undermining of male power — by males. To put it extremely, they are like deserting troops."
This is the quotation that spoke to me the loudest. It is no wonder there are people who think we are crazy to desert our maleness by slipping into a feminine outfit.
For myself, I feel I have to be braver than the average Joe to go against societal norms by donning a dress. Developing intestinal fortitude is one of my main reasons why I keep trying to stretch my horizons with this crossdressing thing.
Society may not believe it, but I think I am a better person than I would be otherwise.
Sami
I don’t really explains crossdressing so much as it explains hostility to transgenderism. It doesnt explain why a man would do something that rationall buys him nothing but it’s a plausible explaination for why other men find that act abhorrent.
Nice article.
Just from my experience and observations it kind of boils down to It's OK in western society for women not to conform, but for men it's about conformity ...... or else.
What a wonderful insight by someone into the reason women wear mens shirts first thing in the morning.
You see it all the time in a relationship and in movies.
I do agree hairy men do look out of place in a nice negligee. :-)
Maybe they have the foresight not to do it.
Women usually wear their guys shirt lounging around in the morning because it smells like their man. They don't wear it to CD if that is what you are thinking.
He may be gone to work and they feel lonely who knows.
I was told this by more than one GG so I take their word for it.
Great article thanks for sharing X
Very insightful, thought provoking, and comforting. Thanks so much for posting.
what a wonderful article. It demonstrates the absurdity of attaching a label to a person because of the way they dress
Candice,
Sad to read really , what comes to mind is stuck in a male straightjacket, I have to say much of the text does show a big cultural difference between the US and the UK , it's one I didn't expect to see as much .
OK the wording is at times controversial , to say any man who wears a dress will flounce around in it , there are so many stereotypes in the article, it's more the reason to have good forums like this one to air our views and hoepfully to find the strength and courage to go out there and prove these articles wrong . The majority of us are wired this way end of story , I'm going to attend two events next month to hopefully put this across . One in a Pride week at a college and another in a conference for the LGTB community . We have to show we haven't given anything up in what we do in fact we have more to offer . I don't feel I'm' a lesser person, OK my separation is partly down to my wife not being able to accept she doesn't have the husband she married anymore .
It’s a good article but I can’t buy into the opening paragraph for one reason specific to me. I’m 6’4”, a foot taller and about half again the weight of my wife. She can slip into my shirt easily, where me slipping into her shift would result in tearing the garment or cutting off circulation.
That being said, I have tried to be more open about wearing traditionally female clothing even when in boy mode. I have occasionally worn a skirt or heels out to lunch with no makeup or a bra. I haven’t heard any specific comments, but I do think I get odd looks. But that could just be my own insecurities too.
I do have a burlesque show weekend happy hour tomorrow night. This type of discussion inspires me, I’ll do a little mixed gender fashion for that event.
I must agree with the article, but I immediately thought of something else. Even the most casual observation reveals that not very many women are casually wearing dresses these days, even though they are perfectly free to do so.
The article is very well written but it represents apples to the oranges that are mostly seen in these pages. If anything the article provides a means for understanding of the MIAD expression, and of course the very nature of gender binary.
Teresa, you are blazing your own trail but I dare to say that the life you are living doesn't necessarily fit the narrative of the article. This is true for many (most?) of those in these pages who venture out in public, whether occasionally or full time. (Including myself as occasionally) We squeeze, pad, make-up, cap (wig) and accessorize to bury as much of the male as possible to present as a (gasp) binary representation of a female.
This of course is entirely different from a MIAD, and especially contrasts against the average Joe off the street which the article references directly. It is speculated as to why he doesn't simply consider grabbing a dress from his SO's side of the closet and throwing it on with no regard for the stubble on his face, the protrusion of a beer belly instead of breasts and the fur on his legs, arms, etc. The difference is that the MIAD generally does his thing with decorum and a sense of style (knowing what works, what doesn't, what to avoid if not trying to utterly shock the Muggles) where the average Joe is just going to look silly. Generally speaking, female clothes look silly on the male body when just plopped on while the same dress/outfit would look just fine when plopped on the female body it was designed for.
Is this perception simply a result of how pervasive the gender binary is? Perhaps. Most of us prove it in here every day and provide positive reinforcement to those who present within what is considered typical for a gender-binary-female (while chastising those who significantly deviate from that norm). But as I have said repeatedly, nothing is likely to change soon despite the fraction of a percent of the MIAD's, CDs/TGs/etc who are out there blazing their own unique trails.
With the advent of the Internet, it has become pretty easy for anyone to publish just about anything and claim it as fact. I think the article referenced is pretty much a bunch of crap and should not be taken seriously. Most of us should have enough life experience to be able to look around us and separate reality from fantasy.
I think the points it makes are valid. Most women would have no problem shopping in the mens section (even if they don't prefer it) but most men would refuse to even look in the womens section.
I know that we all read things differently, not to mention myself 1/2 understanding things.
But for me just to read the article which is written in modern time is just depressing! The article for me just points out how backward society is and highlights what we must deal with every day!
The Manly part of it all really annoys me as well because I have trouble in seeing anything manly in most men, possibly because such men were usually standing behind me.
Sorry about the aggressive attitude, but society as a whole prevents me from wearing what I choose and the blame is on them!
No person should ever be stopped wearing what they choose because of anothers insecurities!
Stacy needs to chill out, Stacy!
Interesting read. This world is based on stereotypes any more. Where men are masculine and woman are feminine.
In the past Scottish soldiers wore kilts into battle, Basically a skirt. Even today when formal dressing some consider a kilt as part of that outfit. and people don't bat an eye at it. In the middle ages men wore pink, white, and yellow with ruffles and lace. Was it effeminate, no it was status.
Kelsey
Ah...The old "Fake News!" trope. Care to elaborate as to what caused you to come to this conclusion, which is decidedly different from that of most of the other posters here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
Oh come on now. This isn't that complicated, and we've gone over this all many times before. Women are generally sexually turned off by femininity in a male; don't believe me? How many women go out and buy their male mate a frilly nitegown? Virtually zero.
So it's in men's best interest to avoid any feminine accoutrements or behavior like the plague if he wishes to be sexually desirable to females. Sure, YOU might find ONE woman out of ten million that will accept her man being 'girly'. But it's not common at all.
It depends upon whether wearing a dress will be of some type of benefit to the woman. Go out to a nightclub and nearly all the women are wearing dresses or skirts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charona
That is true for many people. However, there is a large segment of society who feel it is a moral sin and the person is making a choice over which he or she has control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lana Mae
Lexi,
I don't totally agree , we estimate about 25% of the wives / partners attend our social groups , all are happy to help the Cders out everyone I've spoken to are OK with the home life in this situation. So if that's an average throughout the CDing groups that is a considerable figure of acceptance .
Stacy ,
I'm sorry you feel like that , I feel it's more in your head than the reality of what society thinks, I've certainly found that in the UK . Most of the fears of stepping out the door are just melting away . That's why I'm annoyed with much of the text in the article it's dated and biased and appears to come from the pen of someone who lives in a very biased society . It had to be in our hands to try and change this bigoted attitude , why should men have to accept this dreadful straightjacket ? I've never read so much bunk as to believe a man who dresses in a dress goes from the top of the social heap to join the rejects at the bottom . I've dressed all my life, OK mostly in the closet but it didn't stop me running my business and raising kids , I know for a fact that applies to many others here on the forum , we are not social outcasts and the sooner we put that message across the better .
Interesting observation in the article on the view (wrong in my opinion) that 'real men aren't feminine'. I disagree, I'm widely considered an alpha male, former lumberjack, current biker, married father of three beautifully adjusted adult children, straight, but I have a feminine side, too. I love a mini skirt (on me, in private, on a pretty woman in public), much prefer knickers to pants (yep, British) and adore a neglige in private - for me and them. How's that handing over power?
Sorry my academic mind wouldn’t let me get through the article. It’s started with a supposition based on anecdotal evidence, then casts about for reasoning behind a fact that has not been established.
Former lumberjack?Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan Smith
OMG! I don't suppose YOU were the one the Pythons based their famous song on?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZa26_esLBE
Nah! Couldn't be... ;) :eek: :heehee:
All I can say is that the last time my wife blasted me about my crossdressing, her attire looked completely masculine. Just because a shirt buttons on the female side does not make it feminine.
I figured pointing out the irony would just be digging my gave deeper...
Every so often a fashion designer will bring forth a collection of skirts for men. The models will walk down the runway showing the skirts, the media will cover the event, and little more will be heard of it. The skirts will not sell, both because few men are interested and because like most new fashions the garments are outrageously expensive.
One thing to notice is that those skirts do not make their wearers look like women. Instead the wearers are clearly MIADs. This would appear to limit the appeal to crossdressers wanting to "pass". It might also limit the appeal to crossdressers because the garments are designed for men and are thus not really women's clothing.
By the way, men still wear skirts. The part of a suit jacket, or a raincoat, or a winter coat, below the waist is accurately called its skirt.
Susan , that's the crux of most society's view women and be feminine or masculine and a combination, but men cannot. I may be wrong but by far the most physical,emotional and spiritual abuse is heaped on men who are perceived as feminine at all.
An interesting article, thanks for recommending it, it was a good read. I don't agree with all of it, but it isn't a thesis or a medical journal, just a point of view or observation. Thanks, I had fun reading it, and the comments; good thread.
I won't be around, but I predict that a hundred years from now, if we haven't blown ourselves up, men will still be wearing pants and women will still be wearing skirts and dresses.
Peer pressure mostly. :):battingeyelashes:
Peer pressure implies that men would like to wear dresses and/or skirts as a matter of course. They don't.
This is my opinion only:
When the majority of women wear pants/jeans, they buy them in the women's department, they are not trying to fool others into thinking they are women. They don't try to disguise their voices, use fake names, use fake beards, etc. The norm in society now is: women wear pants. Over 50 years ago, it was not the norm. It took a while and a lot of women wearing pants for it to become commonplace.
This opinion is for CDer's only, does not pertain to trans. The problem that I see with men is that at the current time, there are no skirts or dresses specifically made for men that are sold in the men's department. Yes, there are fashion models of men wearing skirts but I haven't seen them in stores yet. So, if men did buy skirts and did not try to "pass as women" but as a man wearing a skirt, if lots of men flocked to the stores to buy skirts (as women did in the 50's & 60's to buy pants), and if men were comfortable being a man in a skirt, not trying to fool anyone with fake names, fake hair, fake boobs, and all that stuff, maybe CDers would not feel so out of place.
My question to CDers only is that if men in skirts and dresses were commonplace, would it be as much fun for you as it is now? If you didn't try to fool anyone into "acceptance", would it be as thrilling? Or would you just be happy that you don't have to hide (if you do hide)?
Candice,
I really liked this article. It touched on how society looks at people. How we’re brought up into the gender roles that are defined by the village norms. Something I didn’t care for was how most people have to label someone. “He’s gay because he wears a dress.” Or their example using the word “queer”, though I don’t believe queer had the same meaning back in the 1930s. The English language in the America’s has gotten lazy, we don’t speak like we did back then words have changed in their meanings or not used at all.
Because I am still in the closet, and can only fully dress on certain occasions and times. When I am home alone I don’t mistake what I reach for to dress in, I usually dress for the work that needs to be done. Not saying that I shouldn’t cut grass in a skirt or sun dress, just that I can definitely minimize the amount of bug bites if I am wearing jeans. But often enough I am doing housework or kicking back reading in a dress or skirt and oversized sweat top.
I sent the article to a couple of ladies that know I crossdress and asked for their opinion on the article. I am sure we will have a great discussion on it.
@—}——-
Michelle
Char GG,
You asked a good question.
Obviously I can't speak for anyone else. For me, however, I don't wear dresses for fun.
Yes, I enjoy wearing dresses, but it's because I feel comfortable wearing them, and I like the way I look when I'm wearing a dress, hose and heels.
You may be wondering, what about the rest? The make up, and the wig? Yes, I wear them, too. It's part of the package of what is necessary for me to look like a woman.
Right or wrong it's what society expects, at least for today. When the general public sees someone wearing a dress, they expect for that person to look like a woman. So because I have no desire to be accosted, ridiculed or humiliated, I'm willing to do what is needed to present as a woman.
If it were possible for me wake up tomorrow and choose to put on dress, stockings and heels then head off to work, (sans makeup, fake boobs, wig,) and know that when I arrived at the office, I'd be greeted by my coworkers as though it were completely normal, and acceptable, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I think a lot of women would disagree with your perception that it's OK for them not to conform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter
Char,
It's really irrelevant who you pose that question to because the whole question isn't that straight forward , some float from one state to another, to say some are just CDers means very little, we wear the clothes for different and varied reasons as time passes our needs change . I can't say the thrill has totally gone but some days I forget I'm dressed . Some people have commented they're not women's clothes they're my clothes I'm beginning to appreciate that comment now . I feel more comfortable dressed, choosing clothes changes as we evolve like any woman needs to learn the ropes on deciding what goes with what . It's not a case of fooling anyone but looking good the same way a woman would want to , OK some of us can't have our own hair styled but we can choose a suitable wig and take care with makeup, it's no more fake than many women . Looking good as a female is far more enjoyable than being male and yes it is more fun , women can conjure up so many looks with clothes and makeup a man has very few choices . OK the downside is what is associated with some male behaviour when dressed which is something very rarely considered in women .
The idea that the reason alpha males kick sand in the face of betas (apparently under orders from The Patriarchy™) is to enforce the gender binary doesn't age well. Actually, it's more likely alphas want to kick betas out of the gender binary and keep them out, to keep them "in their place" so to speak. Alphas don't really want or need competition for desirable women. And desirable women decide what qualities are desirable in men not The Patriarchy™.
It is pretty simple.
1. Most men (the overwhelming majority) have no desire to wear skirts or dresses or anything traditionally feminine. It just does not appeal to most men, at all.
2. If women found men in dresses sexually attractive, men would be wearing dresses. Women do not find men in dresses sexually attractive (outside of TV fiction), so men do not wear them. Men will dress, or not dress, in a way women find attractive, because most men are straight and want women to find them attractive. If all women want to wear pants only, men will have to go along because men have a strong desire/need for women; women are not as desperate for men as men are for women.
Good point, Lexi, but funny how it doesn't seem to work the other way...Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
As we all know, men are highly visual creatures, and are typically attracted to a female first and foremost by their physical appearance and to what degree that conforms to their particular vision of the "ideal woman". It is hard-wired into our brains and the way biology and 100,000+ years of evolution have shaped us. When was the last time you heard a guy exclaim - upon first setting eyes upon a gorgeous woman - "Wow, I bet there is a fine, highly intelligent mind, a wonderful, agreeable personality, and a great sense of humor lurking beneath that smokin' hot body!"? Right!
It's also the reason why porn, strip clubs, burlesque shows, "girly" magazines, and the sex trade exist.
Think about it - how many "real" men are visually turned on by women in sweats, jogging pants, track suits, leggings, jeggings, hair lazily done up in ponytails and hidden under a ball cap, and wearing runners, flip-flops, Birkenstocks, or the like. Not too many, I'd wager.
And you know what? Most women don't seem to give a rat's @ss about that, since that manner of dressing has become the norm for them. Yet somehow, they get away with it, whereas for men the corresponding bar for maintaining a "masculine" image (and I'm not just talking about the clothes) is so much higher in order to remain attractive to them.
Go figure. :doh:
You're using a subset of women who stayed with their partner once knowing that he's a crossdresser, and were willing to go with him to support groups as an example of what percentage of women in the general population who will accept a crossdresser as a mate? That's perhaps the greatest stretch that I've ever heard of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
Then again, I don't live in the UK. Perhaps you have a huge percentage of women over there that LOVE men who crossdress. But we don't have that situation here in the U.S..
It would depend upon why we dress; for each, it's different. It's not 'fun' nor 'thrillling' for me to wear woman's clothing. It just feels normal, where as wearing men's clothes does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by char GG
The example I usually use is, suppose you're at a formal event. Everyone else in the place is wearing tuxedos or evening gowns, but you're in a bathing suit. Do you feel just a bit uncomfortable? probably, and it won't matter if that bathing suit is gender appropriate or not.
That's how I feel when dressed as a male; there's always that constant feeling that I'm not wearing what I'm supposed to. When I'm dressed as a girl, I feel normal. What's more, I know why I feel this way. Sure, it took me decades to figure it all out, and of course, I wasn't happy with what I found out. But at least the confusion and (most of) the guilt about doing it was gone.
I don't think it's unusual at all. There are usually good reasons why we do things, and if we spend enough time, we can figure it out. One of the biggest problems that we have here, is that most men would be horrified to find out that they have any homosexual desires. It's not their fault; we were all raised to believe that any man who has sexual feelings for anything other than completely straight sex, is a terrible person. Doesn't even matter if we learn it's not true. There's often always a lingering feeling of guilt because it was drummed into our heads so very much when we were growing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
I firmly believe that straight men get at least a little pleasure in just looking at a sexually attractive female; it keeps our attention focused on her despite any distractions, and makes it more likely that we will go after her and try to have sex with her. The urge to reproduce overpowers almost anything for us. Get a man close to orgasm and he will continue having intercourse to completion even as he hears a woman's husband pulling into the driveway.Quote:
It's also the reason why porn, strip clubs, burlesque shows, "girly" magazines, and the sex trade exist.
If they accentuate the female form, or signal to us somehow that she is fertile (young, 70% waist hip ratio, clear skin, healthy hair) yes, we'll be interested. Yoga pants are considered sort of exercise wear by women. But the fact that they accentuate the female shape is what does it for us. Well, that and the fact they reveal every 'nook and cranny' of her body, too.Quote:
Think about it - how many "real" men are visually turned on by women in sweats, jogging pants, track suits, leggings, jeggings, hair lazily done up in ponytails and hidden under a ball cap, and wearing runners, flip-flops, Birkenstocks, or the like. Not too many, I'd wager.
Because at our core, what we care about most, is getting to have sex with her. For >99.9999% of our existance in history, men increase their likelyhood of passing along our dna by the sheer number of women we have sex with. We might care about anything else after the sex act is over, or, after she gets pregnant. We're hard wired to remain interested in a woman for just long enough to get her pregnant, her to have the kid, and that kid to get up on it's feet. This is most likely why there's a cutoff of approximately 30 months when people start to see their mate for who they truly are. Up until then, we often happily ignore any faults that they have, as we remain in a horny fog. We also start to lose interest in THAT woman, and start to find others more attractive, over time. So the seven year itch is also a very real phenomenon. Another interesting fact is that men tend to think of women as they were when we first met them, rather than how they appear later, which is why we stay with them as they age. It's not uncommon at all for a man to not know exactly how his wife looked or dressed should she be out of his sight, should she disappear, whereas women know exactly what their husband was wearing, how his hair was combed, etc.. None of this is my original thinking, all compliments of the hundreds of psychology books I've read over the years.Quote:
And you know what? Most women don't seem to give a rat's @ss about that, since that manner of dressing has become the norm for them. Yet somehow, they get away with it
Women have higher expectations for their mates, because it's more important for the survival of their offspring. It's been said that women are thinking long term whenever they look for a mate; they want alpha male genes for their child. This is reinforced by a study that found women have a slight preference for alpha males when they are ovulating, and beta males that might make good fathers, when they're not. It's not definitive, but there's some truth to it. Next time you strike out with a woman, wait two weeks and try again. We don't know if this is due to women finding a man who is persistant more attractive than one who is not (displaying an aggressive drive to succeed) but there definitely is something to that line of thinking. More studies need to be done, and, I find it interesting that this technique works more often than I would have thought.Quote:
whereas for men the corresponding bar for maintaining a "masculine" image (and I'm not just talking about the clothes) is so much higher in order to remain attractive to them.
Ahhhhh, the fascination of the female mind!Quote:
Go figure.