I constantly hear "Girls can be what ever they want to be" ?
What about US? I never hear "A Guy can be what ever they want to be".
So unfair!
What do you think?
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I constantly hear "Girls can be what ever they want to be" ?
What about US? I never hear "A Guy can be what ever they want to be".
So unfair!
What do you think?
Who or what are you listening to?
I believe the saying “girls can be whatever they want to be”, pertains to education and careers. (There is a push to get girls more interested in math and science).
It’s not so much about being what you want to be as it’s a slogan saying girls shouldn’t be intimidated by “prestigious” and “challenging” careers like engineering that typically aren’t female centric. “Don’t be scared of math” isn’t an inspiring slogan. While there are many careers that are female centric that guys have a harder time fitting into like child care or nursing or elementary education the perception is not so much that men can’t do these things as it is that a man shouldn’t want to be in such an “inglorious” career. In truth none of us is smart/athletic/talented enough to be anything we want but boys are less likely to rule out “prestigious” field just because they are boys. Boys probably need to hear “ it’s ok to be anything you want to be” (even a fashionista)
It’s actually a direct reaction to a time when men were allowed to do any job but girls were literally told “girls don’t play sports” or “girls can’t be police officers” etc. I don’t know if I can even explain how chauvinistic this question is.
Yes, it's a female empowerment thing, but I have to say that all the time I was growing up I always heard, "You can be whatever you want to be." It wasn't really addressing the question of gender, but it was a constant refrain from teachers, parents, coaches, etc. That's what adults are supposed to tell kids -- all kids. And that's what adults are supposed to enable.
Well all I see is girls do and wear what ever they want but guys better be guys.
My wife told me that I better not tell anybody I took sewing classes, and never to wear anything PINK!
Judy I fully understand what you are saying in you post. You are talking about acceptance of the clothes and presentation each gender is suppose to conform to according to society. To bad some negative people on her just can't wait to distort a thread or post and tear it apart. Very sad.
There was an Army slogan "Be all you can be." That would apply to all genders that want to join the Army.
It's just assumed. That doesn't mean that you will be respected for being something considered unacceptable for a man, though. You won't get any congratulations for being a nurses assistant, a beauty shop shampooer, etc.. But you can be one if you want. About the only thing they generally will restrict you from being is a wet nurse (because being one would require taking various hormones which would be excreted into the child's milk), or maybe an ob/gyn nurse, simply because you'd need a chaperone ever time you went in to examine a patient, so it would be a waste of a job slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy-Somthing
Learn to appreciate what you DO have available to you. Nobody gets to do everything. Wilt Chamberlain couldn't be a jockey, and Willy Shoemaker couldn't be an offensive lineman. Find something that you CAN do, and enjoy, and can find someone willing to pay you to do it, and do that.
Perhaps the phrase should be, "Boys don't have to be macho". Perhaps then that could create workplaces which are more attractive to females as opposed to "Making it in a man's world".
Girls can now be boy scouts so maybe it adds a whole new level to this saying
I remember one semester in high school,A friend and I had an open slot for a class.nothing offered at that time period that either of us had not already taken except home ec. so that is what him and I took.I do not remember any body making fun of us and it was a lot of fun.would have been around 1975 or 76.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
Judy, I have a number of pink and lavender shirts from Brooks Bothers, nobody has ever said a word. Also, when my daughter was 13 and wanted particular curtains, I sewed them.
It's sad to think people live in a world that wearing pink clothes or learning to sew can be a problem.
Men can do anything they want. Except for hurting others or committing a crime sort of stuff, but everyday stuff men can do the same as women. It's the world that one creates that stops them from being their selves. There are times that I feel that society seems to be digressing rather than moving forward. From the posts I read it seems we are moving back in time to the 50's.
Of note, I didn't go to sewing class, my dad taught me how to sew.
men don't need to be told that because it's assumed anyway. James Brown said it, "It's a man's world ".
Over 60% and growing , are the number of females in colleges and universities, and grad schools! More professionals are women now, than men. I have heard women say, "men are not needed anymore." Also, have seen women in tee shirts that say, 'Girls are the future", and similar things. The pendulum has swung far the other way now. If poet Robert Bly thought men were in "grief", in 1990, how much more are men in "the ashes" now?!
For centuries society, not just men, has tried to define women's roles and behaviour. Certain professions were considered acceptable and others were thought of as scandalous choices for women.
Men also face many societal constraints but they are much fewer. So the last several decades have seen a rebalancing and as with all rebalancing efforts the pressure to required move the "pendulum" is large because of inertia. Then the pendulum gains momentum and probably will overcorrect but at some time in the future it will come into some sort of balance.
Many people on this site have openly wondered why it is that women have a wide latitude in the way they dress. The spectrum ranges from the very feminine to almost masculine. In contrast the range of the male dress code is quite restricted. I have often wondered if this arose as a result of overcompensation for the restrictions placed on women in the past. However if you look at the early 20th century it appears that with a few exceptions, the female dress code was rather restricted also, viz. the fuss over women wearing pants.
Meanwhile society still has a very narrow male dress code.
Judy,
I come from a generation that swear it's a man's World, the women/wives play second fiddle to what the man wants.
I feel the big change has happened through the media, take a look at adverts now, most are to do with women looking good and having a great time , many also depict the power women appear to have by looking good and putting the man in his place . I agree girls do appear to have more fun and be what they want to be , that's the way western culture has changed but not all cultures .
I know you thread is back the the theme of your DADT sitaution , It's gone on a long time and still you haven't managed to change anything , OK if all you have is to keep venting here then you'll have to carry on doing that if it's your only outlet , I'm sure most of us wish we could change your situation for you but I'm afraid you're the only one who can .
Judy I don't think it's unfair because when I grew up back in the 1950s guys where doing about anything they wanted to do. Bringing home the bacon has some called it. Girls were taught to be a homemaker and dads were the bread winner so to speak. The women then after the house chores were done got together at each other's houses, talked, drank coffee, and played card games. They all usually wore dresses then by the way. Didn't really do any dirty men's jobs outside the house. They had it made in the shade and then when the first WWI and then WWII came around many women were trained to work in the aircraft factories and assembly lines for weapons and planes. Thus the women became a worker outside the home front. Most able bodied men enlisted thus leaving a void in work staff in the factories and the void was filled by women. This got the women in Americas work force and it really escalated even to the point we have women on the front lines, women leading men into battle. It made a line of division between male and females. Time and wars advanced the female role in being the provider of the home front, raising kids, and thus began the women's movements.
My wife thinks that was a females down fall because her mom didn't have to work outside the home but now in order to pay bills, make mortgages, raise children, and keep the female image that they can prove they are as good as the males at anything she says she was expected to work.
I personally like it as the GGs shot themselves in the foot by wanting to prove they were as good at working as males. Many like my wife would rather instead of working be a stay at home and keep the house in order and have me do 80-90% of the money intake and she has often told me she wishes the saying girls can be what they want to be had never came out. One time they were the queens of the castles and now they are working girls and still have to work when they get off their jobs. I love it some GGs hate it. Just a little history lesson from an old college professor I had that happen to be a GG.
My wife is a teacher. This slogan is not limited to just girls or women. It is also applicable to boys or men. If you go down to your local elementary school or go on line to the school's directory of classroom teachers you'll notice the lack of male educators at the elementary school level. There is a push to get males into the lower grades. Many boys do not have any male role models in their lives, and, the interaction with male teachers is of benefit to them. Over the years teaching has been thought of as being a woman's job. I know in many states the pay scale for teachers really sucks. Pay gap? Pay women less than men?
I also see a change in nursing. I see more and more men in the nursing field.
If you check the stat on the percentage of women in college in fields customarily thought of as male dominated; engineering and medicine, more than half the student population is female.
The biggest impediment to young women going forward in any field is set early on in life. Too many boorish men subconsciously direct their daughters to a "traditional role model." That notion is also passed on to girls by their older brothers. My wife sees it all the time in the lower grades of elementary school.
Well - I do what ever I want and who I want to be. I go out as Doreen quite a lot, and it's fun and satisfying for me.
If u don't think men or CD's can be whatever we want to be, Judy? How does that account with my experience? Successful business man who started dressing out of the blue at age 50.:eek:
And, check out my avatar. Taken among about 100 CD's in a restaurant at Vegas. And, I just turned 75!:tongueout
If ANYONE out there, male or female, thinks they can't do something? I suggest it's mostly U that's holding u back!:brolleyes:
Because we still live in the greatest country on earth.:D
Yes, nowadays they tell girls they can be any thing they want. They used to tell boys that lie. It's total BS, of course. Only a small percentage of people will become doctors, lawyers, engineers and etc. And apparently here in the US, you're unlikely to get into one of those professions if you were born here. Our education system is in full collapse so we have to import talent from elsewhere. My wife is a high school science teacher and she is basically not allowed to fail anybody. The kids know it and don't do any work at all. Colleges are increasingly becoming the same. They just want that government guaranteed loan money and students graduate from the university as indentured servants to the banks only to work as baristas not barristers.
There is a lot of mythology about the '50s being a time when women were chained to the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. My mother went to work when she was 14 (in 1944) doing farm labor - topping tobacco, picking cotton, sorting potatoes- while still in school. She always had a job and supported the family (my father was a bum) until she retired in the late '80s. When she retired, she was earning an income that would make most men envious. She often said that she would have given anything to have what most feminists rejected - the ability to stay at home and raise her children. BTW, I never saw my mother wear a dress or skirt except for work. When pants became acceptable in the 60's, she never wore a dress or skirt again.
that comment "be whatever you want" isn't meant as a promise nor a guarantee that simply wanting something is sufficient. It IS an over simplification of a basic fact of life. You "can" become what you wish to be, provided you a) understand what it takes to become "whatever"; and b) are willing and able to invest the time and energy necessary to become "whatever"; and c) that you can accept the possibility of failure.
I have friends who are doctors, layers, engineers, professional athletes, etc. They became these things in some part because of physical aptitude, but far more importantly, because they committed themselves to the effort, coped with setbacks and persisted.
Stevie your post is dead on.
I agree the education system is a joke anymore.
Of course now a days kids think they can get something for nothing. They have been taught they are entitled to things and don't have to expend any effort for anything.
Yes it was an education slogan but it does apply to men as well in a lot of other fields.
Can I say humbug yet again? I've helped raise 4 kids. Two boys and two girls. They are much smarter, much better educated and much more accomplished than I am. And I know lots of other kids who are similarly advancing.
There are schools, and certainly even states where there seems a deliberate effort to undermine the quality of education. And frankly, I suspect that the deliberately addictive nature of video gaming may be damaging the brains of young men.
Look at college admissions and graduations. Women substantially exceed men in both. Look at law and medicine....same story. Is that because the schools encourage people to follow their dreams, or is it because young women are less likely to waste their time on "virtual" reality?
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Can I say humbug yet again? I've helped raise 4 kids. Two boys and two girls. They are much smarter, much better educated and much more accomplished than I am. And I know lots of other kids who are similarly advancing.
There are schools, and certainly even states where there seems a deliberate effort to undermine the quality of education. And frankly, I suspect that the deliberately addictive nature of video gaming may be damaging the brains of young men.
Look at college admissions and graduations. Women substantially exceed men in both. Look at law and medicine....same story. Is that because the schools encourage people to follow their dreams, or is it because young women are less likely to waste their time on "virtual" reality?
I raised both my daughters on my own and I always told them if they put forth the effort they could achieve whatever they wanted and they did just that.
That's the key, isn't it Tracii....putting in the effort!
I'm sorry for venting but I see girls, and quite a few wearing what ever they want with somewhat boys hair cuts and no makeup to full fem.
But at this point guys can not go full fem!
I am in a 99% female dominated profession, so it can be done. It was never an option that was promoted to me growing up (granted it is a rather niche field), but neither was cosmetology.
Telling children "they can be anything they want" is right up there with telling children they are "special". Everyone is unique, not "special". Everyone has limitations no matter how talented one may be. Michael Jordan wanted to become a professional baseball player but he washed out.
Ever notice girls are told they can do traditionally male professions, but pushed towards only those traditionally male jobs that are "prestigious"? Most sanitation workers are male, but when was the last time girls were presented that as a desirable option? And why not, they get paid reasonably well and they are as important to society as doctors or lawyers or computer scientists. They are critical to the health of society, that is pretty important!
Lets go back to the OP, as Judy said in #30, she was venting about guys "not being able to go full fem". She clearly was NOT expressing resentment against women or children. I'm troubled by the notion that anyone would resent words of encouragement....and frankly a bit annoyed by the tendency of old people to denigrate the supposed deficiencies of the next generation. And, Vickie, to suggest girls are pushed toward professions ignore the fact that women had to fight for even the opportunity to pursue such careers.
To Judy S's point, yes its unfair that men cannot go out fully dressed and made up as women. Perhaps someday, no one will raise an eyebrow.
Well no actually, a guy in the western world can go full femme anytime they like. I did it all day yesterday. There is no law against wearing any clothes you like as long as cultural modesty is ensured. Chuck on a dress and go out like a bloke and you may get the odd stare but you CAN do it. Only you are stopping you or you are letting others stop you against your will. Until people here stop this 'it's not fair' constant moaning and actually get out and do it a bit more it will never be mainstream. Lots of people present everday in non-mainstream attire, goths, steampunk, skins, mods, rockers, punks, you name it. I sometimes give a closer look out of interest but that is all. They have no problems but what they do have is the confidence to be what they want. All those members here who think 'it's not fair' should grow some and get some confidence. What do you actually want, I mean if men wearing dresses was actually normal they wouldn't be womens' clothes anymore, just unisex, so would you still want to wear them as much? Good question eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy-Somthing
Well, they can. I do it, many other members do it, you just need the cajones (tucked of course...) to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy-Somthing
I have constant contact with people who want to be something for which they have neither the ability nor the work-ethic to become. My advice is always, "Give this up and find something you're good at." You can't be anything you want to be. But if you're good at something, you shouldn't be prevented from doing so for spurious reasons.
I never understood the "men can do this" "women can do this" idea. On the whole, men and women are intellectual equals. The latest data from the "no child left behind" programs shows that earlier ideas about the differences between men's and women's intellectual capacities were completely wrong. This pretty much coincides with my personal experience. I've had the opportunity to work with a number of exceptionally talented women. In fact, I prefer working with women because they (usually) don't waste time trying to prove that they're the smartest guy on the project. Even as a child I never understood why men and women shouldn't be considered equals.
I'd be willing to bet that my wife would leave me!
If that is the case Judy does she actually love you the person?
Does she only love what you look like on the outside or does she only want you around to use you to her benefit?
disclaimer:
My comment is not bashing any certain person or member its just a question towards Judy.
Others please don't assume I am talking about you because I am not.
I sometimes find much of what is said about the changing roles and opportunities for women in the 21st century starts out by belittling what valuable and essential contributions to society womankind have made in the past. Indeed that role was not properly valued and acknowledged yet it was nevertheless very important.
It's wonderful to see women head major corporations, be senior judges and so on but I often think of my Mother who toiled ceaselessly during 6 years of war to make sure her family was safe, well-fed and were well educated. It was not glamorous but it required dedication, energy and great inventiveness. Also it needed great courage as she was alone during many of those scary nights as bombs were dropped around her home. And somehow the best description we can come up with is "Homemaker". Surely a weak description of what was required.
I agree Consuelo well said but that was a different time and women aren't like that any more.
While this is certainly true, it has been shown that men and women process information, and perform tasks, differently. Women are much better at multi-tasking while men are much better at pursuing single goals. These differences are seemingly hard-wired into us - sure there are exceptions on both sides of the aisle, but very generally speaking there ARE differences between men and women.Quote:
Originally Posted by CynthiaD
Well Maybe soon they will let some Boys join the Girl Scouts !
They have way cuter Uniforms !
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Judy,
OK what is the bottom line , if you were given the chance would you go out and about dressed if so how much ? I assume you don't want to transition but just want the freedom to dress as you wish . In that case your wife would not be losing out , she's not going to lose you not unless your CDing is the excuse she's been looking for .
I've said this before but I separated from my wife because she couldn't live with my CDing needs and I couldn't live without them . It's working out just fine for both of us , we are happier with the situation now living apart than trying to hold it together as a couple. There's no talk of divorce just comfortably living apart . At some point you will have to make this decision for yourself , your wife is just going to keep on torturing you until you've made a stand . Venting here might help sometimes but you can't continue to live life like this , what about your needs ?
Teresa this is the way men are they suffer in silence and never stand up to their spouse.
Judy, I agree. I see far more GG's , especially over 59, that have short male type haircuts, especially around the ears, and i do double takes at times, to discern whether they are guys of gals, or TG. It saddens me to see them having their beautiful hair sheared off and thrown away. Certainly, females can dress or do any look they want, and it is accepted, but men are far more limited yet.
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I was a gravedigger for a while. i have never seen female gravedigger yet.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying girls shouldn't be whatever they want I think they should.
I just think it's not equal that when a girl wears what looks to be boy clothes no one thinks anything about it but, if I showed up to work in a summer dress, lets face it, all hell would break loose!
Well what are you personally going to do to change that Judy?
I dress how I wish every day. Womens clothes and shoes are all I have.
All hell has not broken loose quite the contrary, even my friends are used to it so its not even mentioned.
As we have said before the clothes those women are wearing are womens clothes not mens clothes.
Disclaimer:
I was talking to Judy so please If I have triggered you sorry but I wasn't talking about you.
I agree 110%. The closest I cam was to become an RN. But I still have the label of a male nurse. AUGHHHHH!
Judy, I understand the frustration...Hell, I live with it. But in reality I do live in a box of my own creation. Yes, like you I make choices as to who gets to know and who I try to hide from. I make the choices because I perceive them to be my best options...
but I do have options...as do you. The question always remains, which do you choose?
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Judy, I understand the frustration...Hell, I live with it. But in reality I do live in a box of my own creation. Yes, like you I make choices as to who gets to know and who I try to hide from. I make the choices because I perceive them to be my best options...
but I do have options...as do you. The question always remains, which do you choose?
Something that is overlooked is the fact that it takes 2 incomes to support a family these days due to the extremely high cost of housing and other necessities. This started in 1978 when real estate started rising at an unprecedented rate due to baby boomers buying housing and competition pushing the prices upward. Before then most households were single income with mom staying home and taking care of the children. Most kids became "latchkey kids" with some unfortunate results. Good manners and simple courtesy nearly disappeared from kid's behavior because mom isn't there to correct their mistakes at an early age. I think there are many women out there who would be thrilled to be able to spend their time at home with their children, but it's just not economically feasible for most.
It has always been possible for women to choose any profession the wished as long as they were capable of gaining the knowledge necessary. It just was less usual than now.
Judy,
You are basically seeing it from your wife's perspective , that's what she would expect to happen because she just doesn't want you to dress . That is exactly how my wife still sees it and I have proved like many others here that it's totally incorrect . OK I'm not faced with a work environment but in the UK like I'm sure most of the US it wouild now be discrimination .
All hell doesn't break loose , in fact not much happens at all , for most of us that's what we wish for , we can just be us dressed as we choose and be out and about .
As Tracci poses the question what do you do about it ? Does dressing really mean that much to you or do you just like venting about your wife and your DADT situation ?