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This friend told me : Quote " If you guys want to go out in public and be accepted as one of us, CD, TG or else, dress and act like one of us. Or else stay in hiding" unquote.
I don't know if its the general opinion of the majority, but I see a beginning of some mid age women more accepting.
Please share your opinions on this, this is only my opinion.
Rayleen
Rayleen,
I wouldn't disagree with your friend and that is how I've found it . Women don't go to the supermarket dressed as hookers so we shouldn't attempt it not unless we do want the attention .
I've just been and bought a new wig , the response I received from the shop owners was lovely , OK they didn't use the word " Pass " but did say I blended very well. I was early for my appointment so went off to find a tea shop , I sat in the garden with other customers having a normal conversation .
I think if her claimed acceptance of men dressing and acting like her was the social average, most of us could. There are some who enjoy more stereotypical appearances than women seen at work or malls ( or clothes catalogs). But we do hear ongoing events where TGers are harassed by others for trying what she said we should do. And that is why we still hide. The brave ones / ones with support do test the waters and it appears to be getting much better.
Hugs, Ellen
So, the guy that wants to wear a pair of Gloria Vanderbilt jeans and a woman's t-shirt while shopping must act like a girl or stay home?
Words can't describe how ridiculously idiotic that is.
When you put it like that Tracy, you have a point :)
I have heard similar opinions myself.
Rayleen. I totally agree with your friend. I’ll take it a step further. Like it or not there are society agreed norms for how to dress and act. With regional variations of course. Anybody who strays from those norms in manner or dress will
Draw attention, mostly. Shari e. This is amplified in the case of a trans person. Society i have found is willing to turn mostly a blind eye to trans folk both male and female. It when we act and dress the fool. Then the societal claws really come out. If that is what you want, to be a lightning rod. Then by all means go for it. More power to ya. But let’s not fool ourselves about passing or not and society acceptance.
For those that are going to go very litteraal about the wording. Acting like them I would take to mean. Don’t make a fool of yourself. Just go about your business like all the other ladies in the store.
Cheers
Tracy,
Surely that's the whole point of the comment made on this thread by Rayleen's friend . What is the point of dressing and going out as a woman if we don't adopt a female demeanour . OK I admit it's sometimes difficult when you encounter an awkward driver or you get a supermaket trolley that prefers to copy a crab and go sideways . I don't go OTT but I wish to be seen as a woman when dressed so obviously I will adopt female traits .
I totally agree with Tracy. It basically says crossdressers who pass are ok but crossdressers that are man in a dress are not. Seems likes she sees gender presentation as binary (either boy or girl, but not a mix of both).
Asew,
Don't forget it was a comment from a GG , that's how she sees it and many members of the public , it really is the bottom line with many of the general public , it's going to take a long time to change that . All I know is I'm very happy and comfortable to be blending in with society , it's taken too many years to reach this point so I'm now going to start to enjoy it .
I don't see this thread lasting very much longer.
I do agree with the GG to a degree but when you take personal freedom of expression from someone thats when I have a problem.
I don't tell women who act and dress like men they can't do that I don't have that right.
Tracii,
How many people do like laddish and loutish behaviour in women ? I certainly don't and usually give them a wide berth so OK that argument does work both ways !
I'm with Teresa on this one. The operative word from the GG here is "acceptance" - at least from her perspective.
Sure, for those crossdressers who insist on being out in public as MIADs or dressing in some other "in your face" manner" go for it...absolutely no one has the right to tell you what to wear, including your choice to sport tattoos, piercings, nose rings, dye your hair purple or any similar affectations that the "vanillas" might have a problem with. But at the same time, don't expect everyone to be on board with your choices, and don't be such a snowflake that negative perceptions or comments about your appearance will crush you.
The lady in question has outlined what she deems "acceptable" from her perspective and according to her value systems. As long as she keeps her mouth shut and doesn't try to impose her views on others, "no harm, no foul", I say.
I think it's actually pretty funny. A statement like that might make me grow a beard and dress for her just for fun!
seems rather logical. if you want to blend, dress accordingly. If you don't want to blend or pass, you can dress as you wish, but probably won't be accepted as one of the GG's. that appears to be what the GG is trying to say. not so much dressing as you wish, but being accepted as a woman or female in public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayleen
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this also seems logical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy Irving
Basically what I was saying Leslie dress how you wish but be prepared for back lash if you dress in a "in your face" style.
I know some CDers that dress like hookers then get mad because people laugh at them.
Never let someone tell you how to dress or act.
Ever.
I think her opinion is fine, as is everyone else's. It's opinion, not law.
I tend to follow her guidelines in my own life where I want to establish long-term, friendly relationships with women in my own age group and interact with them on a social basis. If that's not what you're trying to accomplish, then of course you'd do something else.
While I Dont disagree with the woman's point.I'll bear that in mind tonight at work when I spot a cpl of GGs shopping in their pyjamas and slippers
First off, I don't dress to blend or have any interest in going out dressed to Denny's or Walmart. Also, what one middle aged woman's opinion is doesn't concern me.:straightface:
I just returned from a week dressed in Vegas. Not dressed like a hooker but like a classy, sexy young woman. As did most of the other 250+ T girls there!:daydreaming:
Unfortunately, I am old and obviously a MIAD! Still, I got plenty of thumbs up, "U go, girl"s, and other encouragement as I walked thru casinos, restaurants, and along the Strip alone. Mostly from young women!:thumbsup:
I encourage all of u to go out dressed in what makes u comfortable and confident. There's no way u can or will be accepted by everyone unless u pass 100% of the time. Just remember, don't let one bad apple ruin your girl times!:thumbsup:
As has already been said, it makes sense what she says. However, I also read a negative undertone too. If many think that way, I also hope that they are equal opportunity criticizer's and they do that for their own cis-gender female or male population. First of all, TG's in any shape and form out in the wild are a minuscule number of people, except maybe in safe haven areas like California and similar locations. Second, way out there people who dress come from her own cis-gender crowd with their purple hair, piercings, tattoos, super over the top sexy or under the bottom grunge outfits. If she want to criticize, start with her own kind!
Pat ,
I'm with you on this one, once you have that rapport you can bend the rules a little as some GGs would in the same circumstances .
Like you I wish to integrate , the dressing is part of my life but I don't want to let it rule it so I would play by her rules , I'm still planning to run my art group and know the guidelines and rules I'll have to work with but I'm perfectly happy with that if I'm totally accepted as Teresa , what more could I wish for ?
I think the woman in question was just saying dress for the occasion.
I have seen women all dressed up pop into a supermarket usually for a bottle of wine on the way to a party.
However you wont see the same style at 9 am
I don't think it was to curb how you choose to dress more to just be careful where you wear it.
Oh I did once see a CD in only a bra and a thong at 11 am, it was embarrassing to see that in public with young kids around.
Your friend is dead on point with her comment. No hiding, but no over the top drag queen theatrics either. Just be.
If you own it, people will buy it.
I think the statement was true and sound advise to all of us.
I'm with you on this one Sherry. I have absolutely no desire to look like a school headmistress in a plaid skirt. I want to look well dressed but sexy. In fact, a real woman can be sexy in any clothes, just by virtue of being a woman - the softness in the face for example and the expressiveness in the eyes - I'm thinking of say Emmylou Harris. But as a cross dresser, it's something else that I want to portray. Paradoxically, I mostly want to be seen as sexy by women themselves, attractive to women as a man in a dress. Not be one of them - except in the same way that I already enjoy being in women's company as a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
I guess that's not the reason everybody here dresses. And I don't want to denigrate those who want to somehow emulate, to a reasonable degree, real women. We are free, within the mores of society at large, to express ourselves any way we see fit. But it isn't, and it needn't, be the same thing for all of us.
We may be overthinking this issue. I have once encountered a scathing look (while dressed as a man in a skirt) and once got a teenage boy making sarcastic comments - his friends declined to join in. That is out of many hundreds of times out in public either fully dressed as a woman or as a man in a skirt. People are generally nice or they do not care.
Yesterday I went shopping in a supermarket in the Scottish town of Elgin in a knee length cotton skirt with a male T-shirt, bare legs and black ballet flats. No reaction whatsoever - not even a second glance. I then went shopping in boutiques in a nearby village. I tried on some dresses and bought one, which I then changed into for the rest of my day, visiting some other villages on the way home. All my previous excursions in womenswear as a man have involved skirts (and on two occasions women's trousers) but this was the first time in a dress. Again no reaction. At one point I was within 100m of a woman I had met as a man earlier in the day in full view of her with few people around. There is no way she could recognise me at that distance in a completely different outfit but like everyone else she ignored me. It was my first time in these boutiques and they treated me like any other customer, making conversation about the weather and asking if I was looking for anything in particular. The shop where I bought the dress helped my pick out a scarf to go with it (which I did not wear at the time). When driving the dress looked a bit like a neutral top - the back zip would not have been visible, but out and about no room for doubt.
So those who want to go out and are scared of reactions should just choose somewhere safe far from home (with people around such as an edge of town shopping centre or tourist attraction) and go for it. I never cease to be amazed how little reaction there is. You do NOT have to wear a wig, make up or boobs, or behave like a woman, though sometimes it can be even more fun if you do.
I have to agree with France 100% on this one. Didn't the GG say...If we want...
All the best to all,
Linda
Perhaps the reply should have been 'OK - but if you go out wearing trousers and a shirt then you should act land present as a man'.
Personally I don't try to present as female, I am just a man who likes to wear clothes traditionally associated with the female gender and as such I don't adopt any female characteristics. If I were to go out dressed I would just be a guy in a dress and people would have to accept that fact.
When in Rome do as the Romans do......
Would you don a dress and then sit with your knees two or three feet apart exposing your unshaven hairy legs?
From what I've noticed, women are sizing each other up all the time. How they are put together, how they handle them selves. If we are going to play in their playground, I think we are held to the same standards.
If your goal is to blend and be one of the girls, then be one of the girls.
Yes she said "...If you guys want to go out in public and be accepted as one of us". If what she is really saying is if we want to be accepted as GGs I can't argue with that opinion. But I'd say most of us really want to be accepted as ourselves, as crossdressers etc. And that includes men in dresses, bearded CDs or whatever we want to wear and however we want to act.
Even if we perfectly mimic the average women we won't be accepted by everyone.
When a man wears female clothing, but is still obviously a man making little effort to appear female, some women see it as a man making fun of women. On the other hand, a man who is seriously trying to appear female in appearance and mannerisms, is seen as honoring and respecting women. It doesn't matter that neither attitude is really what we're all about.
As we become more accepted this will change.
For me it's about truth and lies. When I look in the mirror and see a woman looking back at me, that's the truth. Anything else is a lie.
Then the question remains, which women should we dress and act like? Women aren't all the same. Some middle aged and even older women dress skanky and some young women dress very conservatively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayleen
So which do we choose to emulate? Of course, that answer will depend on the woman you ask.
So we still don't have an answer.
Cynthia,
I think you've hit the nail on the head , I feel that is what the GG was implying , if you're going to dress do it respectfully and don't lampoon us . I don't know if truth and lying comes into it, being a woman isn't easy there's more to it than just donning a dress . I do get some very nice comments because I feel they know I'm respecting them and doing my best to blend in with them .
Cynthia,
So if I go the grocery store in a skirt or dress but otherwise male in dress and mannerisms (aka just being myself with some comfortable clothes) some will see that as making fun of women? If so, I think they are too easily offended :)
Asew ,
That is not what Cynthia is saying she's just saying what the GG implied from the original OP , and I agree with Cynthia on that point , and yes I'm afraid people will think there is a lampooning element , remember we are not talking about CDers here we are talking about acceptance from a section of the general public , whether the comment was right or wrong and I'm sure she would not be alone in making the same comment .
I had exactly this experience only last week , the two ladies didn't say anything but they didn't need to , OK I went back and made as amusing comment (which I posted on the forum about) , after that the ladies were fine with me , it is called the real world and these things will happen you have to learn how to deal with them and if you can't then it's best not to set foot outside the door .
I would agree, if we are going to dress like women, we need to act like women, not a caricature version of a woman.
Not over the top SUPER girly, just normal.
When my wife sees a girl / woman acting TOO girly or over the top / phony, she always makes a comment about attention getting drama queen behavior. She has told me if I want her to take me seriously I shouldn't act like that.
Forwarned is forarmed.
What an ignorant silly statement. Does she reprimand butch women in public and tell them to go hide?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayleen
Super passive aggressive.
Sasha,
I agree completely with your miad philosophy. That`s how I see crossdressing except I don`t go out yet, but slowly building my courage to do it.
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Asew,
Does it work the other way too. Women who dress in trousers but act like women are making fun of men. Well, i`m not offended.
It sounds like the friend of the OP has either had a bad experience with either the OP or someone else. (no offense OP) What does it mean to dress and act as a woman in public ? There must have been some behavior that did not translate well.
Sorry, Had a answer for the wrong subject.
Message deleted.
Rayleen
Quote:
I see a beginning of some mid age women more accepting.
Sorry I dont see it that way. It reminds me of a specific group of woman and us meeting a certain perception and if we/I dont meet the mustard then................stay closeted.
Rayleen,
I'm sorry but your reply ( 41#) doesn't make total sense have you missed some words out ? , Could you make it a little clearer what you friend was suggesting .
mbmeen12, Referring to :beginning of some mid age women more accepting, some of the friends ( femme gender) seem to be accepting if male gender go out dressed in a feminine attire but not in a mixed gender clothing.
Rayleen
I don't know about anyone else but when I was dressing indoor shall i say. When I dressed I try to be more lady like. From watching how women walk there gestures how they dress how they sit in dresses or if there wearing skirts. Trying to learn. So now that I have gone out I can some what blend in. so far I have bin told I act more lady like then most ladies.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asew
Some people have the wrong impression of us. This is just one of the many.
Yes, acceptance is becoming more common, but I think it is also a spotty or geographically located thing. But yes, finally!
If we accept that we are all at varying points on a spectrum, and that what we all want is to be accepted as we are, then the OP comment is at best misguided. We live in a society that has two genders, male and female. I'm here because I was assigned male at birth and yet I have this huge bit of female inside me. It's a pity that when I went through puberty, many decades ago, my body as built and my body as I might want it to be became very different things. However, this didn't make the female bit go away, it is very much there and is very much part of me. I could never dress, put make up on, put a wig on etc and be anything other than a very manly woman, it's just the way that I'm made. But I can be feminine, I can be smart, I can be presentable. All, I would ask, is that I can be me, being me. Now, I've accepted over the years that society wasn't ready for me as I am, and to some extent that may be true, but unless we get out there and confront society, unless we present ourselves as we want to be seen, then society won't change and move on. For me though, it's probably too late,I'm too set, too much in the rut that I have accepted, but, the younger people, those growing up now, they can take this thing on and have freedoms that were only ever distant dreams when I was their age. Yes, society moves slowly, but society does move and on this issue, it's moved a long way and is moving ever faster. What I do know, is that if I were four years old today and I had the same need to be a girl that I had when I was actually four years old, then my life would be very different now. All power to everyone and anyone who has the courage (that I lack) to get out in the real world presenting themselves as they want to be seen. As for us, as for Rayleen's friend, we're all going to have to learn to move with the times. It may be baby steps at first, but babies grow and their steps get longer.
Ok, so what is "dress and act like one of us" supposed to mean exactly? Does a city girl dress and act the same as someone from the country? Does a nurse dress the same as someone In sales? Do impoverished women dress and act the same as high society women?
Point being, how one dresses and acts is more a product of their station in life than their gender.
Might there be a happy medium? Dressing like a hooker for a trip to the mall or grocery store might give a gurl a thrill but it almost certainly will reinforce negative stereotypes in the eyes of beholders. On the other hand, I'm old-school enough to think it's a shame some GGs (many, actually) have appropriated male dress (baggy shorts, sloppy tshirts, etc), and maybe they could make a bit more effort, at least as far as everyday casual dress is concerned. It IS possible to be comfortable, feminine and stylish all at the same time, after all.
There's also the matter of age and fashion. I hate and refuse to accept the sort of PC notion that older ladies aren't allowed to be stylish and maybe even *gasp* a little young-at-heart in their fashion choices. I don't mean ****ty, or even clubby, in mainstream settings, just style and flair. Whenever I see a 50+ GG in a retail or business setting who has kept herself in shape, thinks makeup and hair are worth the effort, wearing heels and a skirt *gasp* a little above the knee, I want to rush over, give her a great big hug and thank her profusely for keeping femininity, style and sexy alive. Then ask her where she got those amazing earrings. :D
So I guess it depends on whom a CDer is trying to emulate and fit in with, right? If I have to dress like an asexual slouch who gave up a long time ago, well, I guess I just won't fit in. But I have evolved a beyond the it's-a-sex-thing that prompted many of us to explore CDing in the first place and learned the value of presenting as a sane, down-to-earth, interesting human being who isn't a threat or embarrassment, who might actually be worth getting to know and understand. And who believes style and a youthful spirit aren't mortal sins.