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I get that a lot of people do not like how some people present as the opposite gender.
I have had a couple run-in's lately, even after years of no problems. Not sure why there is this sudden increase in people feeling the need to give me a hard time. None of them are signing my paycheck or giving me a place to live.
Anyways, so why is it that some people think it is their place to tell others how to live? Specifically about the subject of gender expression?
I think its because we've grown up in a society that practically demands we act a certain way and behave a certain way as well. Anyone who dares to differentiate from that norm is seen as a very odd person by the majority who simply feel that we are men, so we need to grow up, act like men, do not cry, exert manly mannerisms, and above all else.... DO NOT DARE TO ACT LIKE A SISSY GIRL. Some men think women are the weaker sex, and so when a man expresses his feminine side, he is insulted, humiliated, or maybe even beat up. Heck, even if a man only wears panties, this could lead to big trouble with other men.
I am in total agreement with u Nicole, I don't let anyone tell me how to live my life. Of course, I have not come out of the closet yet except to the other ladies online at crossdressers.com, and at Victoria's Secret. Eventually I may have to face a problem like this and when I do, I think the best thing to do is to ignore it. The first few times I finally decide to go out en femme, I'll probably have some friends go along with me for protection in case someone tries something.
The answer to your question is that they don't, its your way of life for you to live it as you wish, just after I first started to go out I was in a large shop and heard some giggling I looked round and a family were laughing when I looked again they retreated and I thought no I am not going to stand for this so I went after them to find them hurrying out of the shop I let them go! narrow minded bigots that is what I call people like that.
First of all, No one has the "Right" to tell anyone how to live their life.
However, many people seem to "Think" that they have a duty to enforce their own beliefs and morals (no matter their rationale) on the rest of the world.
All we can do is stand our ground (as safely as we can) and show our solidarity for all who wish to follow their own path.
Yup these are same people who would tell you to wear a blue top instead of a green one. I haven’t met one while out for awhile but I know that day is coming.
There is no law preventing people from being clueless or acting the fool/making themselves look foolish. Then there are those people who seem to be "Professional fools". Of course let's not leave out those that simply have no couth. Things just seem to fly out of their mouths.
I would not give any of the above mentioned a second thought. Reason has no place in their universe.
Hate, discrimination, and ignorance r out in the open now more than ever! Especially in certain locals. If u live in those places, be careful, be cautious.:straightface:
Here in SoCal things continue to improve for T's. Not only r we more accepted? We r becoming so commonplace in some areas that no one gives u a 2nd look. Much less a stink eye!:thumbsup:
We have certain standards of presentation, whatever that may be.
These days people are more outspoken and if something does not fit in with their standards? the will readily complain.
I think it is a changing society out there.
It's all crap, I would do whatever you want to do. :-)
Even what I have written here has a certain amount of B/S. in it.
Hello Nicole haven't seen you in a while here. Iv'e come to the conclusion we challenge their manhood, they say I "would" never do that when they really mean I "could" never do that, and then there's that homophobic thing they think we want them,as if. Then there are the ones who see us happy and mostly content and that bothers them because they are stuck in their little ruts and meaningless lives so they lash out at us.Funny how we can go for long periods of time with no negative encounters and then pow there they are in our face with their ignorance but mostly from afar or just in ear shot so they can run away if confronted. Iv'e learned to just smile and go about my business which just bugs them because they couldn't make me as miserable as they are in there petty lives. Okay, okay rant is over. I guess I didn't answer the question after all.
As usual, the reasons are fear and ignorance. Recently though, certain groups have found that they can profit from exploiting those things. It is a move as old as society itself, uniting "the tribe" against "the other". This time around, it's the TG folk who are the demon of the day, along with journalists and scientists (AKA smart people). In other times it's been gays, racial minorities, people who chose a different religion, or who simply spoke a different language.
The best thing that we can do in response is to normalize our different-ness, show people that there's nothing to be afraid of, that we are more like them than not. Yes, I'm oversimplifying a bit, but it is through that process that real change occurs.
The right to tell someone else how to live,
comes from a place ABOVE a "country" inside the city of Rome.
It also comes from a city in the Hejazi region of the Arabian Peninsula.
Both have interesting books about how others should live.
Societal change is a dialectic. Progress is made engendering reaction which pushes back. This process is not a zero sum game. Progress is made but with ups and downs. Just look at the US in the post war period. Major social liberalization overall but with periods of entrenchment. We in the last decade we witnessed major improvements for LGBQT rights in the US. However, now we are in the reactive period and it feels like we are going backward (because we are) but the dialectic will again swing in favor of continued acceptance. However, this will be slow and vary greatly between regions.
It is politics. It is sociology. The back and forth is a natural process
OK folks, let me make this as clear as I can.
If there are anymore posts on political points or opinions, this thread will be deleted.
Progress certainly does not happen in a straight line, that is true. As long as it inches forward though.
I do have some thoughts about things but yeah, they are not really things we can bring up.
What I can say though - When people are rude or want to tell someone how to live, what response are they hoping for? "OK, thank you sir, I will start living as a man again just to appease you". MAYBE on those PSA's from the 80's called "One to grow on". Oh THOSE things were an unrealistic hoot.
It was just weird hearing rude comments after years of nothing. I typically rummage thrift stores for my "retail therapy".
Some guy who looked nearly homeless and had a "fragrance" of booze approached me talking about how he knew i was a dude blah blah and asking what type of backpack to pick for his daughter. I thought, "surely this ingrown wart hair on a dog's butt looking guy isn't raising kids".
But then the next week, some creepo was like laughing real loud from his truck.
The best though was when some other homeless looking pimple on the ass of society was standing there lecturing, lecturing me about how what i am doing was wrong. I did the polite thing and started cussing him out. Some lady comes up out of no where, grabs his arm, and lead him out of the store. He was getting on HER nerves even. Meanwhile I am thinking, "What the heck just happened?"
Most of those who want to tell you how to dress and act are simply following the ways they were taught and are also teaching those ideas to their offspring. Sometimes their actions/reactions are also re-endorsed by their friends and the leaders of their social circles.
Those type of people rarely change until someone near and dear to them change their minds, and opens their mind to a different idea.
Frequently they will turn on that friend and even make the friend an outcast.
Nicole,
You can't cure stupid! There are people who perhaps because they subconsciously find it adds to their own self grandissment, increases their own sense of self worth, will seek to "tell it like it is", or, "not afraid to speak my mind".
Politeness and good manners go out the window. It's more about them and their own self importance than anything else.
We have to accept it goes with the turf. Thankfully it seems a rarity based on the overwhelming positive reports posted here. All we can do is in our dealings with the muggles be as nice, as polite, as engaging as we can be and influence people's thinking in our favour.
I don't think politics has much to do with it It is more a matter of tradition about gender differentiation and the thought that what we have in those traditions is perfectly natural and has always been that way. Therefore, it is a good idea to maintain the traditional differences between male and female. But now we know that the traditional differentiation may not always be so cut and dried. Sex and gender may not be so intricately intertwined as we have always thought it to be. To some that may be an alarming trend and to others it may be welcoming. Some have always resisted change while others have embraced it. It is all a process that leads to change.
I don't really want to try and guess why some people tell you how to live, whether it is gender expression or anything else. I have a lot of "goofy" ideas in the minds of some that I know, but I am often able to defend my goofy ideas with facts and figures. That usually calms the friction and we can go on with some kind of relationship. I accept their views but do not comply and I tell them that I respect their perspective, but I just look at it differently and here is why.
Sometimes, like happened on Thanksgiving, it is an attempt to warn you that you may be in a dangerous territory. My sister-in-law in a discussion about the transgender (she doesn't know but I think she suspects it about me) pointed out that there are so many trans people that get beaten or killed. I said that is true and it is getting worse. It is a real problem in many parts of the world. But if one is going to deviate from the traditional then they should expect and be prepared for some who will not accept it and may do harm. The colonists stood up to the King and the current standards and expectations. (With apologies to our friends in the UK.) It was risky. Many got killed. But in the end a new nation came out of it. She dropped the subject.
Inside I think there is often a genuine concern on the part of those who are critical and they have very strong beliefs that support their concern. We do as well. But gently deflecting the critics can go a long ways toward maintaining peace. Nastiness begets nastiness.
Sadly, that does seem to be the case but, on a positive note, alongside it we also see greater numbers that are accepting, and openly so, as described so often by those venturing out in the RW. The negative views could just be a reaction from various groups that feel threatened by the increasing acceptance of what used to be seen as outside societal norms. That does affect how individuals think and act.Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
(I hope this is not taken as political. If it is I struggle to see how we can discuss society's attitudes to TG issues, which is what the OP is all about, in any meaningful way.)
There are control freaks in every part of society. They are found within every realm regardless of political persuasion. The more extreme they are, the more they seem to want to control people. CD'ing fits into what their idea of dress codes should be. If people get upset by them, it just gives them more power to control because they think that something is being hidden. The better question might be, "what are their dirty little secrets?"
Nicole ,
The only person who gives me a hard time is my wife even after I've separated . Otherwise no one does dictate how I dress or behave .
Do they have a right ? Social circumstances usually govern what is thought to be right or wrong , in a different situation we may well find we are telling someone the rights and wrongs of their behaviour .
I believe it's due to the country's political climate where Conservatives have decided common decency is a sign of weakness Then there are the people who think they are doing "Gods work"... Not to mention the people who have the same urges as you and I but hate that part of themselves so when they see someone like us who can embrace it they hate us more than anything because they can't be us for whatever reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole Erin
I think this image will help a lot
I don't think it's right that clothing should be used, or seen, as gender expression. I wish to wear a dress and use make up like women do but I am not saying I am a woman or wish to be one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVIDA
Way to ruin this thread for the rest of us Robertacd. How selfish...Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertacd
It's their insecurity Nic! Plain and simple!
Finding our own peace is so important!
Stacy!
That's what I get for not reading every post in a thread.
Well I believe that you cannot ignore our country's political climate, but will go back and edit myself so nobody has to think about it.
Every rule, every law, every custom is a way of telling people how they should live.
It begins on day one. The doctor delivers the baby, checks between it's legs and hands it off to the mother with "it's boy or it's a girl", from that day forward the infant begins to be gendered according to it's biological sex. The parents, family friends and everyone near the child for the next several years (during the phase when a child learns and develops it's gender) will play a part in that.
Let's face it folks, we as humans are not that far removed from the 4 legged herd animals, and we tend to live in groups and adopt cultural norms from that group and what has always been the norm for any geographic region or area.
It's been this way for centuries and even though times are changing it's taken decades for the great social changes like civil and women's rights to get to where it is and even that is still a work in progress.
Aunty Kelly said it most succinctly, fear and ignorance is what drives the real bad treatment towards others who don't strive to fit in.
Look at what happens when people move to another country or region from far away, they soon begin to adopt the cultural norms so that they fit in and get treated with respect for it.
I've been watching several Ted talks vids on YT lately and there are some very enlightening talks on the subject of gendering and the inherent problems. One woman told how she was having a conversation with a man who commented on what a 'strong strapping and fine looking little boy' she had, and when she corrected him, that it was in fact a girl, he quickly apologized and without missing a beat told her that she was a 'darling little princess'.
I have noticed something here at this site though, when we've had posts commenting along the lines of the wrongs associated with over the top gendering, a lot of people suddenly get passionate about it needing to be that way. Oh my goodness people cry, girls have to grow up to be pretty and feminine.
Funny how these people aren't saying the same about boys needing to be raised to be masculine little dudes. It goes something like this: "it's wrong that we get called names for being feminine, we should be able to be pretty, and then the next day that same poster say on another thread "women today sure aren't dressing pretty and acting feminine, that's so wrong".
We complain of the double standard, but too many are on board with it at the same time; what's that old line about having cake and eating it too?
For the record Tracy Irving, Roberta's post came after Davida's warning.
We can whine about politics and not talking it here all we want, but we stand on the cusp of history with the current administration's goal to erase trans-people from existence.
Moderate me if you wish.
Cass
Well, you’ve kind of hit on the definition of society. It’s a group of people who come together to decide rules for everyone to live under to maximize efficiency and minimize conflict. Because society deals with large groups who all have different opinions, some people will always be “marginalized”.
In short, both religious and political believers are empowered by their leaders to get rid of the undesirables in their midst. We are undesirables to a lot of people. Hence, they believe that gives them the right to tell us what to do, or even, to use violence to get rid of us. In today's social climate, hate is becoming more acceptable, as our leaders preach it from the podiums. You know, 'good people on both sides' that want to kill each other. I don't consider any of them 'good people'.
People are following the example of those who lead. You, coming from Indiana, should not be surprised. People are feeling embolden to throw out derogatory remarks with impunity. I do not know what the laws of Indiana may be. You can check some of the national websites for that. In Washington State sexual expression is covered under hate crime legislation. From my reading of news reports from around the country I see a wide difference in how anti this or anti that is handled. Laws offer protection, but, not acceptance.
That is why we have things like the notion that everyone is entitled to equal treatment under the law, and more importantly, that that right can not be abridged by majority rule. That's an important facet of any system of law and government that purports to value human rights. Right now, that's not something we're very good at practicing. The tribalism instinct is strong, but an enlightened people can get past that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micki_Finn
And Stephanie, excellent point about laws offering protection and not acceptance.
Aunt Kelly: your assessment is not accurate. We collectively “agree” on what’s right and wrong and permitted and not permitted. Peoples “equal treatment” rights absolutely can be abridged by majority rule. Take Rastafianism. We promise freedom of religion, but those people were not able to fully participate in their religion because they were banned from using marijuana.
You also seem to be under the impression that we are all in agreement on what qualifies as a human right. There are many people who do not believe “picking your gender” is a human right and therefor we shouldn’t be protected. There are racists who believe human rights should only belong to white folks. Many Islamic cultures paint a very different picture of what human rights should look like.
No system protects 100% of the people all the time. There will ALWAYS be someone who is marginalized.
Micki, with respect, your're incorrect. The Constitution of the United States was drafter by men who, by and large, wholeheartedly believed in the notion that certain rights transcend the majority. They designed a system of government, utterly new to the world, where those rights would be enshrined in an almost, but not quite unassailable place in our system of law and government. Changes the principles there are purposefully difficult, and require a long and deliberative process. Yes, it was not perfect, and yes, there have been a few missteps, but the underlying principle has always been the notion of "certain unalienable rights".
As for the Rastafarians, the judgement there was one of preventing risk to society (however specious such claims really were) over religious expression. A better example might be the friction between society and Santeria, a religion wherein animal sacrifice is common.
I never intended to suggest that we are all in agreement. Sorry if you mistook my expression of seeing that as worthy goal as something else. Again, the tendency towards tribalism, wherein seeing "the other" as a threat is as old as our species. The exploitation of that tendency is almost as old. We are capable of outgrowing that notion, I believe, and should recognize our attachment to those ancient instincts as an impediment to our growth as a species.
Thanx for your thoughts on tribalism Kelly, I have been educated.
I had used the word in my earlier post and now with a better understanding of it's true nature in this very interesting thread, I've taken the time to edit.
It's always a good day when you learn something new.
Cass
For following the example of those who lead, here is my take - As one of the supervisors at work said, "Do not let someone else's bad behavior cause you to mess up". Someone had "tested my nerves" that day over Who knows what and I lost it.
I guess also like i read once and as someone pointed out in different words - Laws are designed to (hopefully) change the way people act, not the way they feel.
But something else disturbing - for a while there we had a lot of strides made. Other groups were making headway, gaining rights, etc. But then it all went silent in the news. The only thing we hear now is how "they" are trying to erase us out of existence. Yeah, THAT is going to happen. I am throwing away all my femme stuff right now. Even this really awesome blouse... wait I might keep that, and the skirt, and shoes, purse, hosiery.... Ok so i ain't throwin out nuthin.
I sometimes wonder what skeletons these people have in their own closets,people who judge like to think they are perfect but "Newsflash" very few people are.Anyone has a problem with me well tough,They dont matter a jot and ain't gonna stop me.Thankfully these situations have lessened imo.
Really Interesting Thread too
Sophie
Good question. Many great responses.
i know it’s uncomfortable for some to accept the idea that intolerance has been normalized, but please, look around at the increase in such behavior and ask yourself honestly, if this is simply a coincidence, or have these people been empowered and legitimized by recent example.
Also, although I’m not much of a joiner, I strongly applaud those who do speak out, those who join movements and actively push back against this newly empowered and encouraged intolerance.
Nicole, Your post and my post, "Why Me" are pretty much the same. Don't be critical or offer advice to others, it can be turned around on you. If you can't be positive and nice, keep your mouth shut.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/u...Stories&pgtypeQuote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
This is what I was referring to Tracii, and while we (regardless of where we place ourselves on the spectrum) will go on with our lives, if this (watch the link people) does in fact happen, it's repercussions will be significant.
Cass
They will have to pry the pantyhose off my cold dead body! :)
But have to agree with Kimdl: in our current political climate there are those that feel emboldened to proudly display their hatred of anything outside their narrow view of the world. The good news is that as time goes on things are changing for the better in most places. There's just gonna be some growing pains along the way. Remember when humans thought the earth was the center of the universe?
Like Tracii, I am an individualist, and hate "group think". I am way too complex to be in any box, except being human.
BUT..Teresa, in another thread you told us that you attend your "art class" in drab...So you have caved to exactly what this thread is about...Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa